Nasuverse: 6-C Mages

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

This thread seeks to upgrade the mages currently rated as 9-A to 6-C.

The argument stems from an interview in Fate/stay night [Unlimited Blade Works] Animation Material I. The statement says the following:

Q: This is about Kuzuki-sensei who is physically stronger than regular people. Aside from his fists being strengthened by Caster, are the rest his own strength, or did Caster strengthened other parts of his body as well? <Soujuurou of the Hill>

Nasu: In the anime version, his entire body is strengthened. When the excessively worrying Caster buffed him to ten times that of a normal human, since Kuzuki's base strength is higher than a normal human, he became even more ridiculous, and did the unthinkable during his fight with Saber. Caster was surprised herself: "What the? Isn't my Master a little too strong?!"

The source is here.

The statement seems to say that Caster intended to amplify his power to ten times of a normal human, but since Kuzuki was already far above normal humans, he was strong enough to beat up Saber. The safest reading, in my opinion, is that Kuzuki got a 10x amp which makes him Servant level. Servants are currently scaled to a value of 962 Teratons (Large Island level+), making base Kuzuki's AP 96.2 Teratons (Island level+).

As to who it would scale to, we do have a statement comparing base Kuzuki to some of the characters in Fate/stay night (which is used on the current profiles):

Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?

A: I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery.
And even if he didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing.
Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett.
If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki.
And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.

~ Comptiq 2007-11 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A

Furthermore, this should scale to other mages like Rin as well:

Ah. Rin has the better specs, but 80% of the time, Kotomine would win. It's not easy for humans to conquer trauma printed into them and what this fraud of a priest excels at is opening up the trauma of the enemy.
Since Rin has the goof-up girl trait, she has a lot of traumatic experiences, and having these poked at would make her unable to take advantage of her true potential.... Of course, even if they didn't know each other, Rin would still have a hard time. The executor side of Kotomine, a combat expert with over 10 years of experiences in killing magi, would be the counter of Rin's talents.

~ Dengeki Hime 02/2006, Type-Moon Double Maniax - [Fate] Dream Battle - Rin vs Kotomine

So anyone who gets their 9-A rating from Kirei or Rin would be upgraded to 6-C+.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

crt makes sense, but good luck getting a staff to review ANY nasu thread

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree. I am not super sympathetic to using interviews like this to scale a character several orders of magnitude above any feat that they actually have. Kuzuki's best feats is damaging the human body, small pieces of concrete or metal. This is especially given the rather specious scaling chain used to conclude F/SN servants are Island level in the first place.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I disagree. I am not super sympathetic to using interviews like this to scale a character several orders of magnitude above any feat that they actually have. Kuzuki's best feats is damaging the human body, small pieces of concrete or metal. This is especially given the rather specious scaling chain used to conclude F/SN servants are Island level in the first place.

. When the excessively worrying Caster buffed him to ten times that of a normal human, since Kuzuki's base strength is higher than a normal human, he became even more ridiculous, and did the unthinkable during his fight with Saber.

this is literally just dividing his second key's rating by 10.

 

[Deagonx]

Thanks, but I read the OP.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Thanks, but I read the OP.

then i'm not sure what you're disagreeing on except just to disagree

 

[KingNanaya]

I disagree too because Nasu is a goofball when it comes to interviews

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

• Angra Mainyu, who holds the title of the weakest Servant, was able to clash with Artoria hundreds of times with sparks flying from their weapons, and he was able to trap Artoria's weapon after she swung offensively with his 'sword-breaker' dagger, until Artoria was forced to use Mana Burst to break free and break Angra's weapon.
  And angra admitted inferiority to bazett.

 

[Deagonx]

then i'm not sure what you're disagreeing on except just to disagree

I disagree. I am not super sympathetic to using interviews like this to scale a character several orders of magnitude above any feat that they actually have. Kuzuki's best feats is damaging the human body, small pieces of concrete or metal. This is especially given the rather specious scaling chain used to conclude F/SN servants are Island level in the first place.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

you disagreeing on wog doesnt mean automatically invalid. stay/night has done nothing to contradict nasu's statement

 

[Violatas]

I disagree too because Nasu is a goofball when it comes to interviews

I agree with this, but it should be said this wiki still uses these interviews. Some anyways.

I really wish the Nasu side would just decide if the interview statements should just be dropped entirely already, or find some middle ground.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I agree with this, but it should be said this wiki still uses these interviews. Some anyways.

I really wish the Nasu side would just decide if the interview statements should just be dropped entirely already, or find some middle ground.

if interview statements were dropped 90% of the verse's feats would be gone, tbh

 

[Violatas]

if interview statements were dropped 90% of the verse's feats would be gone, tbh

You can blame Nasu for inconsistent lmao. Personally, I'd just make sure a statement of his isn't contradicted, then use it if its fine.

This site doesn't do that though so lol. Its usually just "Nasu said this multiple times so it's probably valid" even though the first time he brought up the Arcueid vs Servants statement, he said it wasn't even a serious answer. This site uses it anyways though because he mentions it multiple times. And then other times, its "Nasu isn't reliable, thus no statements should be used."

I could go on but this thread isn't about all that. Just saying this site has weird standards regarding the usage of this statements from Nasu.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

You can blame Nasu for inconsistent lmao. Personally, I'd just make sure a statement of his isn't contradicted, then use it if its fine.

thats the usual policy for wog

This site doesn't do that though so lol. Its usually just "Nasu said this multiple times so it's probably valid" even though the first time he brought up the Arcueid vs Servants statement, he said it wasn't even a serious answer. This site uses it anyways though because he mentions it multiple times. And then other times, its "Nasu isn't reliable, thus no statements should be used."

arcueid def beats servants

I could go on but this thread isn't about all that. Just saying this site has weird standards regarding the usage of this statements from Nasu.

nasu in general is treated kind of weird here

 

[Violatas]

arcueid def beats servants

I agree. Brought it up because the statement is used to down scale Servants from her normal self. Lore-wise there's literally no reason to do this though lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh brother...


Ya think this guy is 6-C? Like, at all?

I could also pull Cú murking base Kiritsugu, who is literally a god-tier master physically and actively has amps to 6-C!

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I agree. Brought it up because the statement is used to down scale Servants from her normal self. Lore-wise there's literally no reason to do this though lol

average servants are => weak daa, which arcueid has overpowered physically

 

[Violatas]

average servants are => weak daa, which arcueid has overpowered physically

I'm not sure why this is said? I'm saying lore wise, average Servants have no reason to scale to normal Arcueid. In-lore, Arc casually stomps normal DAAs while massively holding back. The only exceptions are the DAAs seen in Tsukihime and Melty Blood. They're anomalies, with Nero Chaos having a blatant statement that Arc would require her full power to beat. Far above your usual DAA.

Anyways, its irrelevant here since that's not what this thread is about. Don't wanna bury the main discussion here.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Oh brother...


Ya think this guy is 6-C? Like, at all?

I could also pull Cú murking base Kiritsugu, who is literally a god-tier master physically and actively has amps to 6-C!

you do know a 10x difference is enough to one shot based on the wiki's standards, this changes literally nothing

 

[DaReaperMan]

you do know a 10x difference is enough to one shot based on the wiki's standards, this changes literally nothing

And you do know that this isn't the only problem right?

Ritsuka got bodied by an unmodified cannon ball and was stated be able to be bodied by fodder Seevants tear through! Both in the same Singularity!

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

And you do know that this isn't the only problem right?

Ritsuka got bodied by an unmodified cannon ball and was stated be able to be bodied by fodder Seevants tear through! Both in the same Singularity!

this is about as dumb as saying superman dies to bullets, or goku dies to lasers. he consistently is able to affect servants with his magecraft, and could even fight hand to hand with a weakened goetia

 

[Deagonx]

you do know a 10x difference is enough to one shot based on the wiki's standards, this changes literally nothing

He got crushed by rubble. He's not talking about the fact that Archer could cut him.

 

[DaReaperMan]

this is about as dumb as saying superman dies to bullets, or goku dies to lasers. he consistently is able to affect servants with his magecraft, and could even fight hand to hand with a weakened goetia

Ritsuka canonically has dogshit magecraft, literally being a third-rate master. This is stated as early as the prologue and first Singularity.

And yes, a WEAKENED Goetia. Weakened enough to where Ritsuka could actually fight him, seeing as Solomon had just self-destructed into Goetia's face.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Ritsuka canonically has dogshit magecraft, literally being a third-rate master. This is stated as early as the prologue and first Singularity.

what does that have to do with his magecraft being able to affect a-rank magic resist? Aoko is called a bad mage too, has nothing to do with her power.

And yes, a WEAKENED Goetia. Weakened enough to where Ritsuka could actually fight him, seeing as Solomon had just self-destructed into Goetia's face.

even assuming goetia is weakened to e-rank levels, thats still a 6-c+ feat.

 

[KingNanaya]

even assuming goetia is weakened to e-rank levels, thats still a 6-c+ feat.

we both know ranks are stupid

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

I really wish the Nasu side would just decide if the interview statements should just be dropped entirely already, or find some middle ground.

The thing is that Nasu is openly a pathological liar that admits to inserting inconsistencies to his story to **** with people. My approach would be to take every statement unless it's impossible to reconcile.

Ritsuka got bodied by an unmodified cannon ball and was stated be able to be bodied by fodder Seevants tear through! Both in the same Singularity!

Ritsuka's scaling would be unaffected by this thread.

Ya think this guy is 6-C? Like, at all?

"Guy got bodied by someone 10x stronger than him therefore" isn't really an argument, the gap between 9-C and 10-B is only like 5x and it's generally considered a one-shot difference. Rider under Shinji got bodied just as badly by Saber, yet she's still High 6-C on the site.

I disagree. I am not super sympathetic to using interviews like this to scale a character several orders of magnitude above any feat that they actually have. Kuzuki's best feats is damaging the human body, small pieces of concrete or metal. This is especially given the rather specious scaling chain used to conclude F/SN servants are Island level in the first place.

Not only is this not a contradiction, the Mages in FSN like Shirou, Rin, and Kirei have a number of feats that would probably rank them even higher.

Shirou could deflect attacks from Rider, with her only saying she's going to hold back after he does the feat.

Rin and Kirei beat up Caster and True Assassin respectively, and the wiki has to make up cope that's not stated or shown. (the explanation for Rin vs Caster is that Rin swallowed one of her gems, which isn't stated, shown, or even implied)

If anything upgrading these characters to 1/10th Servant level would make feats like these a bit more consistent than them being tens of billions of times weaker.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

He got crushed by rubble. He's not talking about the fact that Archer could cut him.

this is about as good of an argument as this

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

we both know ranks are stupid

I agree but those are agendas that need to be pushed another day

 

[Deagonx]

The fact that we scale anything based on rank is really dumb, frankly.

 

[Deagonx]

this is about as good of an argument as this

I don't even know what that's from. Do you have an actual counter? How did he get crushed by rubble if he's Island level?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The fact that we scale anything based on rank is really dumb, frankly.

unless you're individually going to look at hundreds of servants profiles, this is the best we have for now.

also the canonically weakest servant is this strong.

Large Island level+ (Managed to fight against Saber, parrying her strikes with his blades and even catching a slash meant to kill him, though a Mana Burst instantly shattered both weapons, and he has the skill to hold off most other Servants even if he can't defeat them)

 

[KingNanaya]

The fact that we scale anything based on rank is really dumb, frankly.

very true

 

[Violatas]

we both know ranks are stupid

SPIT

 

[Deagonx]

also the canonically weakest servant is this strong.

That's not "canonical" that's just our extremely inaccurate wiki profile.

 

[DaReaperMan]

what does that have to do with his magecraft being able to affect a-rank magic resist? Aoko is called a bad mage too, has nothing to do with her power.

even assuming goetia is weakened to e-rank levels, thats still a 6-c+ feat.

The fact that unless some shit happened in the 4th, 5th, or 6th lostbelts that I haven't actually gotten to yet, that literally never happens.

Ah, so you ASSUME that Goetia is weakened to e-rank levels... instead of going by just... scaling him to Ritsuka. Either it's a gross outlier for Ritsuka seeing as he has two straight up anti-feats to that or Goetia was just weakened that much.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I don't even know what that's from. Do you have an actual counter? How did he get crushed by rubble if he's Island level?

you're literally using elementary-tier battleboarding arguments

 

[Deagonx]

you're literally using elementary-tier battleboarding arguments

Do you have an argument or do you intend to make more juvenile taunts? If it's the latter, I'm going to just threadban you.

How did rubble kill him?

 

[KingNanaya]

How did rubble kill him?

the rocks had 4D death hax is how

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The fact that unless some shit happened in the 4th, 5th, or 6th lostbelts that I haven't actually gotten to yet, that literally never happens.

not patient enough to sift through every chapter of fgo just for this thread, but its on ritsuka's profile

Ah, so you ASSUME that Goetia is weakened to e-rank levels... instead of going by just... scaling him to Ritsuka. Either it's a gross outlier for Ritsuka seeing as he has two straight up anti-feats to that or Goetia was just weakened that much.

thats' literally the weakest strength parameter of a servant, so yes.

That's not "canonical" that's just our extremely inaccurate wiki profile.

cool, make a crt for it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The thing is that Nasu is openly a pathological liar that admits to inserting inconsistencies to his story to **** with people. My approach would be to take every statement unless it's impossible to reconcile.

Then yeah, we shouldn't use any WoG from him lol

Ritsuka's scaling would be unaffected by this thread.

Not from how Mage is arguing it seems

"Guy got bodied by someone 10x stronger than him therefore" isn't really an argument, the gap between 9-C and 10-B is only like 5x and it's generally considered a one-shot difference. Rider under Shinji got bodied just as badly by Saber, yet she's still High 6-C on the site.

Medusa here has other feats, particularly in other works of Fate lol

Not only is this not a contradiction, the Mages in FSN like Shirou, Rin, and Kirei have a number of feats that would probably rank them even higher.

Kirei and Kiritsugu were harmed by the 9-A feat they both scale to. Theres your outlier.

Rin and Kirei beat up Caster and True Assassin respectively, and the wiki has to make up cope that's not stated or shown. (the explanation for Rin vs Caster is that Rin swallowed one of her gems, which isn't stated, shown, or even implied)

Kirei canonically has amps that let him keep up with Servant-level ******* lol

Then thats an outlier for Rin considering Cursed Arm here has some nasty feats in the 5th Singularity(I cant remenber which Singularity was Camelot).

FGO really has a knack for ******* things up, huh?