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Fate/Stay Night Servants Speed Upgrade

Yes, this is an acceptable upgrade. The calculator used the lowest possible height he could have and still resulted in a HH+ speed. The servants would be sitting comfortable in the HH+ category.
 
Well, Saber under Shiro's mastery has an Agility of C (Although it doesn't say how much her rank goes up with the Prana Boost).

So, i can think that every Servant with a C or higher rank could have MSH combat

Anyone below C: HH+ with MSH reactions.
 
Alakabamm said:
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=34732

Thoughts on this?

This calc gives a base servant speed of mach 52.9. With Saber's prana boost (x3) considered, this would mean servants now have High Hypersonic+ speed and MHS reactions (mach 158.7).

It would apply basically across the board. I can list what profiles it would affect if necessary.
Click to expand...
KamiYasha said:
I approve this.
Click to expand...
CinCameron20 said:
Yes, this is an acceptable upgrade.
Click to expand...
I agree. But I think I can improve on the accuracy of the original calculations a little bit. Gimmie a moment to whip something up.
 
Yeah, it would apply based on her agility stat. So, from our current profiles:

MHS Speed:

Above C: Lancer (Cu), Rider (Medusa), Berserker (Heracles), Assasin (Nameless), Assassin (Zero), Lancer (Diarmuid), Berserker (Lancelot), Saber (Kiritsugu)

HHS+ Speed with MHS reactions, exception is Prana Burst Saber:

C: Archer (EMIYA), Saber (obviously), Gilgamesh, Caster (Medea)

Below C: Caster (Gilles), Rider (Alexander)

We would also scale certain forms of Shirou, Jeweled Sword Rin/Kaleido Ruby, Mantra Boosted Kirei, Square Accel Kiritsugu (we can just multiply by 3/4 and 1/2 to get triple/double), Ciel, Arceuid, Shiki Tohno, 30% beast Nrvnsqr, Aoko, Dust of Osiris (basically most Dead Apostle Ancestors), Michael Roa (SHIKI), White Len
 
Hmm, you mean the height of the building? Since this is from the VN, keep in mind we would need to use VN information probably.
 
Also, Saber has some diferent stats depending on his Master, with Shiro (C at best), Fate/Zero under Kiritsugu (A) and UBW under Rin (B)
 
Kiritsugu had B agility, I assume Rin was B as well maybe

Edit: Nope, Rin's was C
 
Oopsy, I was looking at the wrong ones. Yeah, both are MHS I guess (Rin=B, Kiri=A)
 
Crimson King said:
They were climbing the tallest skyscraper in the city.

According to wikipedia, a skyscraper starts at 150 meters, so I'm using that since I don't know how tall that one is.
Click to expand...
Although I seem to remember reading that the center building was 50 stories tall, I can't recall where I got that number from, so I can't prove it. So instead I took the liberty of finding a good CG that showed the majority of the building and counted the floors that were visible, marking them with red dots. I counted 31 visible floors, but I'm fairly certain that there are around 3-5 more near the ground level being obscured by the buildings and trees in the foreground—however, I can't prove that either.

Using the criteria listed on this page and the linked calculator, I can estimate the average height of a tall builting based on the number of floors it has. Given that the Shinto Center Building is an office building and has 31 confirmed floors, the average height should be at least 138.645 meters, and with the maximum 5 additional possible floors the average height would increase to 159.12 meters.

For the lower limit, I'll use the Hyatt Hotel, which used to be the tallest building in Fuyuki prior to its destruction during the events of Fate/Zero. The Hyatt Hotel's top floor is the 32nd, meaning that it likely had an average height of 108.603333 meters. The Center Building should at least this tall. This is roughly equivalent to an office building with a height of 23.7 floors.

Finally, for a upper limit, I'll use "50 stories" I mentioned earlier, despite the lack of evidence for it. A 50-story tall office building would have an average height of 216.45 meters. Why not? As upper limits go, it's not an unreasonable one.

A method I will use to establish some credibility for these height estimations is with this passage:

I run up the stairs full speed.
I don't know how long it's been since Saber left me.
I don't think it's been ten minutes yet, but that's still too long.

The "Empire State Building Run-Up" race involves climbing 86 floors of the eponymous building, a total of 1576 steps. This means there are an average of 18 steps/flight. It's reasonable to assume that the number of steps per flight would be similar in the Center Building. The average of the three times for this race is about 11:00, which is 2.3878787 steps/second.
23.7*18/2.3878787 = 2:59
31*18/2.3878787 = 3:54
36*18/2.3878787 = 4:31
50*18/2.3878787 = 6:17
So, it is possible to run up the stairs of the Center Building in well under 10 minutes given the height values here.

...All that's left to do is the actual calculation.

Lower Limit: 108.603333/(1/120) = 13032.4 m/s or Mach 38.3
Confirmed: 138.645/(1/120) = 16637.4 m/s or Mach 48.89
Unconfirmed: 159.12/(1/120) = 19094.4 m/s or Mach 56.11
Upper Limit: 216.45/(1/120) = 25974 m/s or Mach 76.33

So, the answer should lie somewhere between those numbers.
 
MHS Lancers and Heracles...

Awwwwww yeh.

And I'm fine with this upgrade in all honesty, Mach 15 always did feel a bit....underwhelming to me and probably everyone else too.
 
Jaften said:
Lower Limit: 108.603333/(1/120) = 13032.4 m/s or Mach 38.3
Confirmed: 138.645/(1/120) = 16637.4 m/s or Mach 48.89
Unconfirmed: 159.12/(1/120) = 19094.4 m/s or Mach 56.11
Upper Limit: 216.45/(1/120) = 25974 m/s or Mach 76.33

So, the answer should lie somewhere between those numbers.
Click to expand...
I feel the confirmed route would be safer, so High Hypersonic perhaps? Their reactions stay the same?
 
Wait... I found a slight inconsistency in the narrative that might... complicate things.

This scene happens only moments before this scene.

Specifically, this line:

The two's conflict moves slowly up towards the rooftop.

is said only moments before this passage:

The two shadows running up. The ground is already far away, and the clashes occur at higher and higher altitudes.
The two need no footholds as they fly higher by kicking off the walls of the building.

In the process.
In the instant it takes them to move to the rooftop, they clash numerous times.
If there were anyone watching them from the ground, they would think it looks like pinball.
But then again, they cannot be perceived with the naked eye.

Only their tracks are barely visible, and they are a circus of death invisible to any normal beings.

So, the fact that their movement is functionally invisible to any normal human observer isn't in question here. That's made blatantly clear in the narrative. What's in question here is the speed at which they actually travel up the building, versus side-to-side.

Because it sounds to me like it's not so much that they're traveling so fast vertically that they can't be seen, but rather that they're traveling laterally so fast they can't be seen, darting back and forth like pinballs bouncing around the table while they're traveling up the building. This would be significantly harder to calculate, but could mean they're significantly faster than the numbers we came up with here.

...What do you guys think? Am I just crazy?
 
They are in fact running around the entire building while they scale it, but as the NF poster said, we can't really speculate on that distance.
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
I feel the confirmed route would be safer, so High Hypersonic perhaps? Their reactions stay the same?
Click to expand...
Alakabamm said:
Using mach 48.89 and mach 146.7 would be alright as well.
Click to expand...
If we're still planning on using the values I calculated above... I think it would be appropriate to say that, in general, they're faster than mach 48.89, since there are clearly more floors to the building. Plus, the feat is a vertical climbing, so they're gonna be faster on flat ground—especially Servants like Saber. Basically, it would be fine to say that they're generally gonna be in the realm of Mach 50+... at least, I think that's reasonable.

However, I did just uncovered a possible inconsistency that may or may not end up rendering that earlier conclusion completely irrelevant...
 
Sorry for the double post.

Alakabamm said:
They are in fact running around the entire building while they scale it, but as the NF poster said, we can't really speculate on that distance.
Click to expand...
Even so, doesn't this mean they would be considered significantly faster, since the distances would certainly be longer?

...Should we use the "at least" tag in this case?
 
yes, but if we use the confirmed end, it would be "at least HHS" not "at least HHS+"

Also, we shouldn't use "at least" for the servants that are D rank agility at all.
 
Well, i'm not sure, if assume the height of the building is something good.

I will prefer to use the calc result at Mach 52 and etc (to avoid complications).
 
Alakabamm said:
yes, but if we use the confirmed end, it would be "at least HHS" not "at least HHS+"
Click to expand...
Ah, well that's fine with me. I was just concerned that it would be left at simply "Mach 48.89", like it was with the old value. Even though the calculation linked spits out the number "Mach 15.13", that only represented the minimum to become invisible to an ordinary observer while simply running back and forth in and out of the observer's field of view... which is not what was going on. So their actual speed would have been faster to an unspecified degree. The profile never acknowledged that fact, and everyone seemed to treat it like an upper limit, not a lower limit. That misconception always bothered me, so I'm glad to hear that won't be the case this time.

Alakabamm said:
Also, we shouldn't use "at least" for the servants that are D rank agility at all.
Click to expand...
Personally, I'm really leery of using "power levels" for scaling, at least outside of hard science fiction or in cases where the power levels have proven to be consistent and well-thought-out. I feel that removing as many unreliable dimensionless factors as possible from my serious calculations is generally for the best.

That's just my opinion.

...You know, because of the common issues of "Writers Have No Sense of Scale", "Writers Cannot Do Math" and "Artistic License ― Physics". In Nasu's case: "Rin running over 100 meters in under 7 seconds is fast enough to be a blur to normal humans", "dragon-level Pegasus has a maximum speed of 400―500 kilometers per hour while charging", "Servants can rival jet fighters in speed with proper footwork", "thrown G├íe Bolg travels at Mach 2", etc. Yeah. Nasu's skilled at writing great characters and scenes, but he is clearly not skilled in physics. As such, Nasu's Servant statistics? They're not really based in any physical laws, they're based in vague notions and narrative concerns.

...Well, I'm just starting to rant now, so I'll stop.
 
Well, their stats are justification for some of their rankings and they generally follow them. The little physics slip ups he makes have nothing to do with the relative stats, really.
 
Alakabamm said:
Well, their stats are justification for some of their rankings and they generally follow them. The little physics slip ups he makes have nothing to do with the relative stats, really.
Click to expand...
...Honestly, I just prefer and trust confirmable, reliable canon feats above all else, and am distrustful of other sources; particularly stuff like power-scaling, power levels, calc stacking, game mechanics, questionably canon material, etc.

That's just me. I guess I have pretty high standards?
 
Should I post the calculation I did above in a blog, or do we just link to the post in this thread?
 
Alright, I'll take care of that in a little bit and post a link to it here.
 
To be honest I am sceptical about the faster than the eye can see thing here. That is partly, because to my knowledge fast enough characters can have minute long battles so fast that normal humans can't percieve them (at least in general fiction that just happens at times).

But there is also another more important reason.

When we say we can not see a change only being there for 1/120 seconds (we do not see in fps, but ok lets take that approximation), then lets say I make some giant screen made from 10x10 smaller screen, all running a movie in 120 fps in such a way that all of them together build the full movie. Now I flash a red picture for 1 frame in the bottom left screen, then after that a red picture for 1 frame in the screen left from that and after that for 1 frame in the screen above that.

In total I have now spend 3/120 seconds. But each of the frames was, after the explained theory, not visible to the viewer, since it could only be seen for 1/120 seconds on the screen. So even though the red picture was there for 3/120 of a second, due to not being in the same place for 1/120th of a second the theory states it would not be seen, right?

In practice that the brain is very good in motion recognition matters here, but given the explained line of though one could stay invisible to the human eye for an arbitary time, as long one changes the position of ones body completly from the position it had 1/120 second before all the time (and not cross the same point multiple times in a too short timeframe)
 
I actualy doubt the 1/120 seconds. Because human eye stop recognize frames after 1/24 seconds but brain can still keep up via processing and preditiction.
 
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