Some Fate Additions (Mainly Sakura and apply past crts)

[TheKingStrategist13]

Wow, this is.... Relatively easy. Seems to just be bringing up either previously accepted things, things that would be affected by previously accepted things, or relatively obvious things.

I'd agree with everything tbh

 

[Migue79]

Thanks. About Medusa being equipment to normal Sakura, I feel that would be better left to a future crt addressing if masters should have their servants as equipment (either standard or optional), this one is just specifically talking about Dark Sakura since she summon her corrupted servants.

And just to confirm, since it was accepted the Iskandar calc can indeed be used right?

Think you could ping someone like Crimson or some staff to evaluate the thread?

Right. Fair enough. Anyways, put me down for agreed for DS having Corrupted Servants as Optional Equipment.

A CGM did accept the calc and it is their responsibility to verify qualifiers for the lasers in the calcs. I remember ages ago a bunch of laser calcs of mine were rejected due to the lasers themselves not being legit despite the calc itself checking out.

Still tho, more staff discussion wouldn’t hurt on Excalibur being LS or not. It doesn’t need its own separate CRT though, since it’s not like it would change the tiers of the characters significantly (without Excalibur calc, Servants would still be FTL) and would just be superfluous waste of energy. Its validity can be discussed here.

I’ll go ahead and ping @CrimsonStarFallen for you.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I don't really know why Excalibur would be considered a laser, honestly. We, like, have info on Excalibur's composition, and it's magical energy laced with light rather than the reverse.

I agree with the rest of the revision, btw.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I don't really know why Excalibur would be considered a laser, honestly. We, like, have info on Excalibur's composition, and it's magical energy laced with light rather than the reverse.

I agree with the rest of the revision, btw.

Because it meet enough criterias and don't have anti feats for what the wiki consider light speed.

The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror.
The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.
It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.
Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show a beam is NOT real light:

It is shown at different speeds in the same material.
It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans.
They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above.)
Please note that the opposite of these criteria do not prove a beam is at lightspeed, merely that it could be, should it meet the first list of criteria. Should there be great evidence in favor of the light being real or lightspeed, comparably minor showing against it being real can be overruled.

Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser.

The weapon works by converting someone’s magic supply into light. Magecraft recreates natural phenomena and other things that actually exist. So the beam that it shoots out is made of actual light itself already, rather than 'magical light'. It’s even compared to a laser beam here.
The divine weapon is directly called a directed energy weapon, and those weapons are lightspeed according to this (7th page, bottom left paragraph). Heck, the Status Menu description as to how Excalibur works resembles rather closely how one operates.
An inferior model of Excalibur, Caliburn, has been stated to shoot particles of light. There is no reason to assume Excalibur can’t do the same when it already creates light.
Any instances of it ‘exploding’ can be dismissed as a result of Excalibur’s beam being extremely hot and it superheating stuff (heck, its tip was noted to do just this: superheat the space around it): Excalibur is stated to be equal to one of the many beams of light of Goetia’s Ars Almadel Salomonis which can pierce the planet via sheer heat, and it vaporized an entire fortress-sized Cthulhu Mythos God and an entire river in Fate/Zero. Superheating stuff at fast speeds causes explosions/shockwaves. That’s how nukes, lightning, and a powerful enough laser weapon produce their shockwaves.

Which calc members, the dudes that judge if a laser meet the criteria for light speed, considered enough.

And the verse currently have accepted more than dozens of light speed attacks, movements (including Saber itself moving normally close to light speed), feats, etc., with even other calced feat very close to the value of Iskandar calc.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The issue with Excalibur is that it doesn't actually matter if the beam is light, because Saber doesn't just point the sword and fire the beam at people, the true name release of Excalibur involves her swinging it, so when Rider dodges before the attack hits his chariot, all he actually had to do was react to her activating it and swinging, not the light

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The issue with Excalibur is that it doesn't actually matter if the beam is light, because Saber doesn't just point the sword and fire the beam at people, the true name release of Excalibur involves her swinging it, so when Rider dodges before the attack hits his chariot, all he actually had to do was react to her activating it and swinging, not the light

Actually you are the first to make that point, the previous contention was with Excalibur itself being light speed.

About that itself, honestly from the text I don't see it that way considering how she already released its true name and all, futhermore if that was your problem the speed would basically still be the same since Saber already showed to move without problem almost at light speed and the calc is based in the distance he needed to move to not get touched by the big aoe.

Can be heard the opinion of Migue since he was the one who did the calc.

 

[Migue79]

I don't really know why Excalibur would be considered a laser, honestly. We, like, have info on Excalibur's composition, and it's magical energy laced with light rather than the reverse.

Kind of odd. From the sources I’ve checked, it just says ‘light’. No magical element or stuff like that (Altho it would make sense if it did have elements of magical energy in it).

I still think that Directed Energy Weapon comparison is super key in Excalibur being, though.

The issue with Excalibur is that it doesn't actually matter if the beam is light, because Saber doesn't just point the sword and fire the beam at people, the true name release of Excalibur involves her swinging it, so when Rider dodges before the attack hits his chariot, all he actually had to do was react to her activating it and swinging, not the light

Gen Urobochi clearly did not intend this to be a speed feat.

I would use the Anime to prove Iskandar did react to the beam and not the sword swing, but that’s probs cherrypicking since my calc sticks to the portrayal of the event in the source material and in the anime, the beam bends a few times.

Although this bit from the same chapter might imply that Iskandar reacted to the beam and not the swordswing? It is referring to the attack rather than the user.

‘In the moment at which he had bordered the line of death, Rider, who had understood his failure, had quickly plucked Waver from the charioteer’s seat and narrowly escaped from under the attack of the anti-city Noble Phantasm.’

 

[Paul_Frank]

Although this bit from the same chapter might imply that Iskandar reacted to the beam and not the swordswing? It is referring to the attack rather than the user.

‘In the moment at which he had bordered the line of death, Rider, who had understood his failure, had quickly plucked Waver from the charioteer’s seat and narrowly escaped from under the attack of the anti-city Noble Phantasm.’

The thing is though, the swing is considered the attack, according to the guides and mats, the attack itself is the two handed swing following the true name release, so idk if that implies it was the beam specifically.

 

[Migue79]

The thing is though, the swing is considered the attack, according to the guides and mats, the attack itself is the two handed swing following the true name release, so idk if that implies it was the beam specifically.

Mmm... True. Although would it actually be that relevant? Usually after the swing's done, the beam is released.

Also, I don't know how likely it would be that he saw the swing of the sword since Saber WAS right underneath the divine horses about to trample her, and just had the light increasing intensity to use as a guide of the attack coming.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Mmm... True. Although would it actually be that relevant? Usually after the swing's done, the beam is released.

I'd say it'd be pretty relevant, if the NP is as we see in FGO, where it's a massive burst of mana going up as she readies the attack, then she swings it and the beam comes out, it's a bit easier to dodge than just dodging the beam

Also, I don't know how likely it would be that he saw the swing of the sword since Saber WAS right underneath the divine horses about to trample her, and just had the light increasing intensity to use as a guide of the attack coming.

Since I mentioned it above, we see in FGO, and in anything else with Saber honestly, that the light from her starting up Excalibur is a pretty good guide, especially since that extended beam swings downward as she moves the blade

 

[Violatas]

Problem is, is that if you look at their justifications, most if not all of them scale back to servants in the first place. Ciel, Zepia, Arcuied, Aoko, Sion etc all of them scale back to our servant ratings and when I made the OG speed thread it was agreed that, that's where everyone would scale...so like why?

Late, but I made that thread before the FTL Servant threads were accepted at the time. It wasn't until middle of the discussion that the calc scaling back to Servants was brought up. Going in, I was purely thinking about the scaling chain for it applying to Melty cast.

Also iirc, FTL reactions is accepted for Servants, but not for movement speed, since as brought up, the BB statement hinders it from applying to movement speed. The Melty cast aren't that though. I also brought up how in the manga, Akiha runs and intercepts a laser from Hisui as supporting evidence. Thaaaaaat aside, it's not like them being FTL in movement as well breaks scaling since the Servants are currently scaling to the same reaction speed and aren't being blitzed by MB characters.

Anyways if there's really any issues, Idrc if rela movement is added to the profiles. Doesn't really change much in the grand scheme of things so its w/e to me really

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump.

I suppose that at this point is fine to apply the Sakura, Rin and Tiamat stuff do to be direct things and staff approval, but since there was still some debate about Iskandar dodging I bump this. In case the rest of stuff is fine to apply I will do so at some point of this week.

 

[Grimm's_Fortitude]

Is this still going? I agree with the additions, for what it's worth.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Is this still going? I agree with the additions, for what it's worth.

Besides the argument about Iskandar actually dodging Saber swing instead of Excalibur itself which didn't seem concluded the rest of things were accepted.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Also iirc, FTL reactions is accepted for Servants, but not for movement speed, since as brought up, the BB statement hinders it from applying to movement speed. The Melty cast aren't that though. I also brought up how in the manga, Akiha runs and intercepts a laser from Hisui as supporting evidence. Thaaaaaat aside, it's not like them being FTL in movement as well breaks scaling since the Servants are currently scaling to the same reaction speed and aren't being blitzed by MB characters.

If you remeber in my original FTL Nasu thread the rating was accepted as scaling to everyone whos scales to Servants including DAA's like Zepia and all who scale to servants it was noted in the summary of the revision points so actually they were and if you see the original thread Musashi runs to intercept Castor as well in LB5 sooo...

Fair enough if you made the thread with only Melty characters in mind but iirc it wasn't until after the servant thread that that CRT was accepted I even remember being on it, all I'm saying is that it's pretty weird to have a character be flat FTL and then their justification is literally "Comparable to servants like saber" and Saber is Rel+ with FTL

 

[Violatas]

Fair enough if you made the thread with only Melty characters in mind but iirc it wasn't until after the servant thread that that CRT was accepted I even remember being on it

That's because the thread died for awhile. When it was first made. Again, the FTL Servant stuff wasn't even accepted when I first made it. It had got a bit of discussion at first then died for awhile. By the time it was active again, then yeah, the FTL Servant thing went though. Just saying, the flat FTL thing isn't even really inaccurate since it comes from a feat in Melty itself, and not Servants.

The issue here is that even people that scale under the person that performed the FTL feat in Melty scale to FTL anyways since they scale to Servants, while some characters straight up don't need the Servant scaling to scale to the feat. That's really where the confusion comes from.

I should point out I was even asking which characters were people fine with getting the FTL rating on the thread since in the manga, it was performed by Vermillion Akiha who's a high tier in Melty, while in the games, anyone can react to the lasers.
I was told it didn't really matter much because of the Servant scaling just being another reason the cast got it even ignoring the calc.

Idk what to tell you other than there's two justifications they got FTL that isn't just Servant scaling. Kinda puts them in a weird spot

 

[Violatas]

Besides the argument about Iskandar actually dodging Saber swing instead of Excalibur itself which didn't seem concluded the rest of things were accepted.

We can prolly move on without the iskandar thing unless @Migue79 replies back soon. Wouldn't change much as they themselves said early in this thread.

If its not accepted now, there's at least concrete evidence Excalibur is light speed just in case a more solid in tandem feat is found

 

[Violatas]

That's because the thread died for awhile. When it was first made. Again, the FTL Servant stuff wasn't even accepted when I first made it. It had got a bit of discussion at first then died for awhile. By the time it was active again, then yeah, the FTL Servant thing went though. Just saying, the flat FTL thing isn't even really inaccurate since it comes from a feat in Melty itself, and not Servants.

The issue here is that even people that scale under the person that performed the FTL feat in Melty scale to FTL anyways since they scale to Servants, while some characters straight up don't need the Servant scaling to scale to the feat. That's really where the confusion comes from.

I should point out I was even asking which characters were people fine with getting the FTL rating on the thread since in the manga, it was performed by Vermillion Akiha who's a high tier in Melty, while in the games, anyone can react to the lasers.
I was told it didn't really matter much because of the Servant scaling just being another reason the cast got it even ignoring the calc.

Idk what to tell you other than there's two justifications they got FTL that isn't just Servant scaling. Kinda puts them in a weird spot

Anyways @FallenMaou2234 like I said I don't particularly care if rela movement is added instead because FTL to that is such an insignificant downgrade, but was just pointing out that the FTL thing isn't even really inaccurate when its scaling to a feat that occurred in Melty itself

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Anyways @FallenMaou2234 like I said I don't particularly care if rela movement is added instead because FTL to that is such an insignificant downgrade, but was just pointing out that the FTL thing isn't even really inaccurate when its scaling to a feat that occurred in Melty itself

I Don't really care about whether or not flat FTL is accurate or not, you can do whatever you want with that. My gripe is when you have a character that is flat FTL but their justification for said rating is "Comparable to servants like saber" Saber who is Rel+ with FTL. It doesn't make sense, either get rid of that justification or change the rating simple, no need to overcomplicate things here.

Also was this the same thread in which the calc was posted or a different one? Cause again I don't care about whether or not it's accurate in the CRT I made it was accepted that Melty characters would scale to servants Crimson and the others greenlit that however if you made another CRT and Crimson and the other staff agreed then do as you please but change the justifications because like I said it doesn't make sense

 

[Violatas]

I Don't really care about whether or not flat FTL is accurate or not, you can do whatever you want with that. My gripe is when you have a character that is flat FTL but their justification for said rating is "Comparable to servants like saber" Saber who is Rel+ with FTL. It doesn't make sense, either get rid of that justification or change the rating simple, no need to overcomplicate things here.

I mean its really not complicated. I already said that the reason has to do with not only the Servant scaling, but the Melty games themselves just make it where mooooooost of the cast would be scaling. Although this site likes to pretend the games can't be used even though they've been used for eons on here so I don't get the weird hesitation now and profiles like Osiris and White Len are entirely built off the Melty games. All this isn't even bringing up how all the Melty profiles have game feats, Ryougi included.

Also was this the same thread in which the calc was posted or a different one? Cause again I don't care about whether or not it's accurate in the CRT I made it was accepted that Melty characters would scale to servants.

It was in the FTL thread I made. You were there even. I literally asked multiple times in the thread who would people be fine with getting the FTL rating, and you could've voiced any complaints you had then but didn't. Servant scaling was also brought up, which is why like I said above, even people that scale under Vermillion Akiha have FTL reactions even now.

Anyways if you have any real issues after all this time (and ignoring the games despite that being very very weird), and using only manga, the flat FTL rating would apply to like, Nanaya, Arcueid at higher percentages, Nrvnsqr since he's comparable to Arc (as she herself said), and Vermillion Arcueid. Maybe Aoko as well since Arc kinda fears facing her?
Only ones I could see it applying to atm. Everyone that has FTL reactions rn would still keep them though.

I will say though, like I said above, given this recent reluctance in using the feats from the MB games, if someone doesn't make a crt saying they can't be used, I'll continue to do so.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I mean its really not complicated. I already said that the reason has to do with not only the Servant scaling, but the Melty games themselves just make it where mooooooost of the cast would be scaling. Although this site likes to pretend the games can't be used even though they've been used for eons on here so I don't get the weird hesitation now and profiles like Osiris and White Len are entirely built off the Melty games. All this isn't even bringing up how all the Melty profiles have game feats, Ryougi included.



It was in the FTL thread I made. You were there even. I literally asked multiple times in the thread who would people be fine with getting the FTL rating, and you could've voiced any complaints you had then but didn't. Servant scaling was also brought up, which is why like I said above, even people that scale under Vermillion Akiha have FTL reactions even now.

Anyways if you have any real issues after all this time (and ignoring the games despite that being very very weird), and using only manga, the flat FTL rating would apply to like, Nanaya, Arcueid at higher percentages, Nrvnsqr since he's comparable to Arc (as she herself said), and Vermillion Arcueid. Maybe Aoko as well since Arc kinda fears facing her?
Only ones I could see it applying to atm. Everyone that has FTL reactions rn would still keep them though.

I will say though, like I said above, given this recent reluctance in using the feats from the MB games, if someone doesn't make a crt saying they can't be used, I'll continue to do so.

Once again if youre set on using the games to scale then get rid of the justifications if you're set on using the justifications get rid of the ratings it's as simple as that you can't have it both ways don't know why were waffling here.

Because it once again does not make sense to have a character at flat FTL but their justification is quite literally "Dead Apostle Ancestors can keep up with Servants, such as Saber" but Saber is Rel+ with FTL so once again if they don't need to scale to servants then GET RID OF THE JUSTIFICATIONS for the sake of accuracy pick one because if they're all going to upscale or downscale from servants somehow then they should have the same rating if not that's fine just get rid of the justifications relating to servants and move on.

 

[Violatas]

Once again if youre set on using the games to scale then get rid of the justifications if you're set on using the justifications get rid of the ratings it's as simple as that you can't have it both ways don't know why were waffling here.

Because it once again does not make sense to have a character at flat FTL but their justification is quite literally "Dead Apostle Ancestors can keep up with Servants, such as Saber" but Saber is Rel+ with FTL so once again if they don't need to scale to servants then GET RID OF THE JUSTIFICATIONS

Did you ignore the part where you yourself were on the thread and didn't say anything despite me asking everyone in it if they were fine with the scaling and ratings??

then GET RID OF THE JUSTIFICATIONS

...chill Mr "it's necessary I be rude"??? You're acting like your life is on some vs profiles

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Did you ignore the part where you yourself were on the thread and didn't say anything despite me asking everyone in it if they were fine with the scaling and ratings??



...chill Mr "it's necessary I be rude"??? You're acting like your life is on some vs profiles

Once again I'm not interested in the past thread you say you can scale Melty Blood/Tsuki Characters to flat FTL without using servants right? Then do that and get rid of the justifications relating to servants because those dont make sense, if you can't and they upscale or downscale to servants then they should have the same rating as servants. Again don't know why were waffling here my point is pretty simple don't know why were bringing up all this unnecessary stuff.

 

[Violatas]

Again don't know why were waffling here my point is pretty simple.

You're the one 'waffling' here bud. Literally read my response 4 posts up and I say the ones who'd likely get flat FTL.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

You're the one 'waffling' here bud. Literally read my response 4 posts up and I say the ones who'd likely get flat FTL.

I see, so everyone other than the ones mentioned wouldn't get FTL yes? If so there's no problem here.

 

[Violatas]

I see, so everyone other than the ones mentioned wouldn't get FTL yes? If so there's no problem here.

Prolly not and that's because the ones mentioned above are the treated as the absolute highest tiers in Melty. There's an argument for Powered Ciel to scale but I'd have to recheck her feats.

And you know this entire conversation would've been avoided had you voiced any objections when I last asked on the very thread this upgrade occurred. Instead, only one person bothered actually debating the scaling and ratings in it

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Prolly not and that's because the ones mentioned above are the treated as the absolute highest tiers in Melty. There's an argument for Powered Ciel to scale but I'd have to recheck her feats.

And you know this entire conversation would've been avoided had you voiced any objections when I last asked on the very thread this upgrade occurred. Instead, only one person bothered actually debating the scaling and ratings in it

Was busy with the FTL servant thread and applying those changes tbh I was under the impression that the FTL thing would just be another calc to the verse page and it would be the FTL MB and Tsuki Characters scale to.

 

[Violatas]

I mean sure, that could work. It still hasn't been added to verse page. I've asked for the verse page to be unlocked to do so, but certain verse supporters aren't particularly active, or just straight up ignore messages on their walls. Makes pushing for anything for this verse annoying asf.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I agree bruh.

 

[Migue79]

We can prolly move on without the iskandar thing unless @Migue79 replies back soon. Wouldn't change much as they themselves said early in this thread.

If its not accepted now, there's at least concrete evidence Excalibur is light speed just in case a more solid in tandem feat is found

Yeah. I think more solid in-tandem movements should be found. I'll see if I can find more clear reactions to it soon enough...

 

[Violatas]

Yeah. I think more solid in-tandem movements should be found. I'll see if I can find more clear reactions to it soon enough...

You think you'll be able to that in a rather short time span, or should we move on with everything else that's accepted currently?

 

[Migue79]

You think you'll be able to that in a rather short time span, or should we move on with everything else that's accepted currently?

Move on. I've got my hands full rn.