Dressrosa Size Calc

[Damage3245]

just calc sizes that uses the least highlighted panels... those will be the most accurate calcs

I think there's a bit of a misconception here; less panels is generally good because with each increasing step in the process you're adding another factor for potential inaccuracy. So less steps mean less risk. But that doesn't prevent you getting inaccurate results if the foundation of your scaling is using the wrong basis, or it produces an outlier result.

 

[KingTempest]

Doesn't seem relevant to me tbh. We don't know how far he traveled by both panels,

Wdym?

and we don't see what state Caesar is in immediately after getting them up Zunisha.

When the SHs arrived to Zou then were in front of the gate.
When we see Caesar next he's at the gate.

Most likely this is right after

 

[Damage3245]

Wdym?

When the SHs arrived to Zou then were in front of the gate.
When we see Caesar next he's at the gate.

Most likely this is right after

I was referring to this panel and the second panel of this page. When Caesar is mid-travel in both shots, we don't know how far he's covered in both times.

If that second panel isn't what is being referred to, then Caesar panting for breath still doesn't look like strong evidence to me. This is all we see for after their arrival, and just because Caesar Clown isn't shown panting for breath when they're outside of the gate doesn't mean he did it even more easily than when he carried them on Dressrosa.

As far as evidence goes that section of the bridge bridge is over 17 kilometers long... it's really not that much to go off of.

 

[Jieldre]

I see some normal users commenting here so I'll also give my 2 cents on the matter. Idk if these have been brought up yet.


Here is everything that happened on the bridge in chronological order. We have multiple shots of the broken part of the bridge. All being much smaller than what you're suggesting.
Ceasar also seemingly carries them to the island in no time at all.


Here are almost all the wide shots of Dressrosa. Yes I know that it's inconsistent. But it still seems to be consistently less than the proposed 31/45 km and 62/90 km figures for the radius and diameter respectively.

 

[Stefano4444]

Ceasar also seemingly carries them to the island in no time at all.

And the same thing had happen when Ceasar carried the Thousand Sunny to Zou, despire the fact that the country its dozens of kms above sea level.

https://img.mghubcdn.com/file/imghub/one-piece-colored/810/12.jpg

https://img.mghubcdn.com/file/imghub/one-piece-colored/810/13.jpg

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano; you're right but both circumstances are jumps in time / the manga cuts away from the actual travel portion. For all we know it took Caesar over an hour or longer to make the full ascent. It's impossible to know either way.

I don't think Caesar carried them over the bridge in "no time at all".

 

[Jieldre]

Do you have the chapter for this?? @Stefano4444

I also said "seemingly" which indicates uncertainty/nothing concrete

 

[Eminiteable]

From what I can tell his method of flight isn't done through pure physical stamina but through his gas fruit, which said gas fruit's energy (Gas energy) consumption is based upon how many people he carries (He took three to greenbit, 5 to Zunesha)

Like I mentioned above it seems Caesar's stamina for his flight is dependant on how many people he's carrying, not the timeframe.

 

[Stefano4444]

Do you have the chapter for this??

One Piece Chapter 810

 

[KingTempest]

And like I said, the timeframe is irrelevant.

Caesar carried heavier luggage during his movement up Zou. If it was the same timeframe as the bridge, then he would've lost more energy, which he didn't.

 

[KingTempest]

Bump

 

[WrongIdea21]

So what the conclusion here?

 

[Damage3245]

So what the conclusion here?

I've messaged DontTalkDT for more input. My suggestion so far is stick with our current accepted calc for Dressrosa's size, and see if some existing calcs can be reworked so they aren't dependent on Dressrosa's diameter.

 

[WrongIdea21]

My suggestion so far is stick with our current accepted calc for Dressrosa's size, and see if some existing calcs can be reworked so they aren't dependent on Dressrosa's diameter.

Most of Dressrossa's calcs depend on the diameter of the Island, I agree to be more careful about this calc because the effect will involve a lot of characters but it seems like the process is quite long. There's no better way than compare the diameter of the greenbit with the Dressrosa, I think that's where the problem lies, whether we prefer Pixel scaling of Navy's Ship or Wind speed.

 

[Eminiteable]

Just found something.

Caesar could easily carry the SHs up of half of Zunesha but struggled to carry 3 people across the bridge.
Zunesha's 35km tall, half of it would be about 17.5km tall.

How'd that work for the bridge?

I've thought about this over the past few days and came to a realization that this method is the safest and relies on 0 assumptions;

Caesar's flight speed was never reliant on wind speed, that was an assumption made to try give him a speed rating. However due to their being actually no statements about him relying on wind to travel whatsoever and instead it being stated it relies on a power source, his flight is just dependent on him.

We know for a fact as it was stated by Caesar that his flight is dependent on Gas Energy, which uses more energy the more people he's carrying when flying, this is stated:

We know for a fact Caesar was carrying more people on the way to Zou than he was on the way to Greenbit;

Greenbit: Caesar + Law, Robin and Usopp​

Zou: Caesar + Nami, Sanji, Brook, Chopper and Momonosuke inside a basket​

Visually we can see how much gas energy was expended via both journeys via the difference in Caesar as brought up by KingTempest;

First time (on the bridge) he was saying that it'll take too much energy to carry them across the bridge, and when he arrived he was breathing hard.

The second time (up Zunesha) he was fine, casually spoke, used massive scale attacks, did more.

So ultimately this method is the safest and requires no assumptions:

• Caesar on Zou: Carried more people requiring more gas energy as stated, wasn't tired
• Caesar on Green Bit: Carried less people requiring less energy as stated, got tired

And the conclusion we get from that is the distance Caesar traveled up Zou was less than he traveled to Greenbit.

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; if you want to propose a 200 kilometer figure for Dressrosa's diameter (which I'm fairly sure what the method you're arguing for will result in), you can go ahead and make that blog post.

EDIT: I've asked for DT's input on what the best option would be. Just waiting for his response.

 

[Stefano4444]

Even if we choose to not use that, this can still be used to support KingTempest's method.

As this clearly prove that Caesar its capable to travel kilometers in relative short timeframes, meaning the 14.5 km/h its more than a reasonable assumption.

 

[Eminiteable]

@Eminiteable; if you want to propose a 200 kilometer figure for Dressrosa's diameter (which I'm fairly sure what the method you're arguing for will result in), you can go ahead and make that blog post.

EDIT: I've asked for DT's input on what the best option would be. Just waiting for his response.

Will do

 

[KingTempest]

I've thought about this over the past few days and came to a realization that this method is the safest and relies on 0 assumptions;

Caesar's flight speed was never reliant on wind speed, that was an assumption made to try give him a speed rating. However due to their being actually no statements about him relying on wind to travel whatsoever and instead it being stated it relies on a power source, his flight is just dependent on him.

We know for a fact as it was stated by Caesar that his flight is dependent on Gas Energy, which uses more energy the more people he's carrying when flying, this is stated:

We know for a fact Caesar was carrying more people on the way to Zou than he was on the way to Greenbit;

Greenbit: Caesar + Law, Robin and Usopp​

Zou: Caesar + Nami, Sanji, Brook, Chopper and Momonosuke inside a basket​

Visually we can see how much gas energy was expended via both journeys via the difference in Caesar as brought up by KingTempest;


So ultimately this method is the safest and requires no assumptions:

• Caesar on Zou: Carried more people requiring more gas energy as stated, wasn't tired
• Caesar on Green Bit: Carried less people requiring less energy as stated, got tired

And the conclusion we get from that is the distance Caesar traveled up Zou was less than he traveled to Greenbit.

This is... ridiculously accurate
Like as you said, it takes 0 assumptions.
Uses a given method of travel, given size, given effects from the travel, etc.
Maybe the visuals don't agree but heck, stated size > visuals.

 

[Damage3245]

Like as you said, it takes 0 assumptions.

Aside from assuming that Caesar travelling vertically upwards consumes Gas Energy at the same rate as Caesar travelling horizontally the same distance.

And assuming he was not tired after completing the journey up Zunesha, since we're never shown Caesar's condition directly after the trip up Zunesha.

I call nonsense on trying to apply "stated size > visuals" in this circumstance when you're trying to apply the stated size of a completely unrelated location to Dressrosa and acting as though this makes Dressrosa being 200 km across completely accurate with zero assumptions required.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I've thought about this over the past few days and came to a realization that this method is the safest and relies on 0 assumptions;

This also relies on the assumption that Caesar is using up stamina at a comparable rate relative to distance, which isn’t a given. Weight carried and distance traveled aren’t the only factors in stamina use, speed, altitude, changes in elevation, and various other factors also contribute..
Your evidence that his stamina use is proportional to weight is… neat I guess? It doesn’t do anything to indicate that timeframe or speed don’t matter though, just says that weight does, which is true for literally anyone’s stamina.

 

[Eminiteable]

Aside from assuming that Caesar travelling vertically upwards consumes Gas Energy at the same rate as Caesar travelling horizontally the same distance.

And assuming he was not tired after completing the journey up Zunesha, since we're never shown Caesar's condition directly after the trip up Zunesha.

Do we have a statement or anything implies that this makes a difference, otherwise it's not an assumption being made by me but instead you.

We are and he's not shown, implied nor are we given any suggestion he's tired at all. To suggest so would be an assumption on your part.

This also relies on the assumption that Caesar is using up stamina at a comparable rate relative to distance, which isn’t a given. Weight carried and distance traveled aren’t the only factors in stamina use, speed, altitude, changes in elevation, and various other factors also contribute..

Your evidence that his stamina use is proportional to weight is… neat I guess? It doesn’t do anything to indicate that timeframe or speed don’t matter though, just says that weight does, which is true for literally anyone’s stamina.

These are all assumptions on your part; The only information we are given is the amount of people he's carrying determines the consumption of gas energy; you're assuming these factors effect the fictional power source of gas energy without any evidence to back it up.

It's literally the only thing stated about his stamina usage. If he traveled to distance A with more people while taking less gas energy than he did to distance B with less people, then the distance would be greater at distance B.

 

[Damage3245]

Do we have a statement or anything implies that this makes a difference, otherwise it's not an assumption being made by me but instead you.

We don't. But it's an assumption either way.

We are and he's not shown, implied nor are we given any suggestion he's tired at all. To suggest so would be an assumption on your part.

That's not him right after the journey was complete. We don't see how much time there is between them reaching the top of Zunesha and them standing in front of the gate. We don't even focus on Caesar at all in that panel; he's almost off of it.

How about we just cut the Caesar method out already? Because if this is the sole basis you've got to go on for the broken fragment of bridge to be around 17 kilometers long, then I can save you the trouble right now and tell you that it is not likely to be accepted.

 

[Blahblah9755]

These are all assumptions on your part; The only information we are given is the amount of people he's carrying determines the consumption of gas energy; you're assuming these factors effect the fictional power source of gas energy without any evidence to back it up.

It's literally the only thing stated about his stamina usage. If he traveled to distance A with more people while taking less gas energy than he did to distance B with less people, then the distance would be greater at distance B.

This is textbook nlf. We have a statement that implies his stamina usage is related to weight, and you’re using the lack of other stated limits (in a situation where Caesar didn’t have reason to bring them up) as evidence that they don’t exist.
Yes, it is an assumption to say that it involves those, sure, but it’s also an assumption to say it doesn’t. And given that these are normal factors that affect pretty much any form of stamina or energy use, you have a heavier burden of proof for your assumption.

 

[KingTempest]

This is textbook nlf. We have a statement that implies his stamina usage is related to weight, and you’re using the lack of other stated limits (in a situation where Caesar didn’t have reason to bring them up) as evidence that they don’t exist.
Yes, it is an assumption to say that it involves those, sure, but it’s also an assumption to say it doesn’t. And given that these are normal factors that affect pretty much any form of stamina or energy use, you have a heavier burden of proof for your assumption.

Not really.

If we use the factors given, its weight and distance traveled.

stamina use,

Gas energy

speed,

It's an assumption to say his speed was affected, but the only thing supporting it is the weight, which would've made him slower when he travelled up Zunesha.

altitude, changes in elevation,

This would have a negative effect on Caesar's health, as we know with heights that far up it would've been harder for him to breathe, shown in Skypiea (heck, even below Skypiea) when the air was scarce, and this is twice the height of The White Sea where people struggled breathing.
It would make it harder for him to move up Zunesha, while the conditions were stagnant across the bridge.

and various other factors also contribute

Not that many.

From what I see, it should've been harder for Caesar to go up Zunesha because of the factors brought up. He'd have a harder time breathing, he's heavier so he's slower, etc.

It would've been easier for Caesar to go across the bridge because of the factors brought up. He'd have an easier time breathing, he's lighter so he's faster, etc.
Yet he lost more stamina across the bridge than up Zunesha.

That's not him right after the journey was complete. We don't see how much time there is between them reaching the top of Zunesha and them standing in front of the gate. We don't even focus on Caesar at all in that panel; he's almost off of it.

First time (on the bridge) he was saying that it'll take too much energy to carry them across the bridge, and when he arrived he was breathing hard.

The second time (up Zunesha) he was fine, casually spoke, used massive scale attacks, did more.

The fact that he could do what he did on Zou says a lot.
They were in a hurry, idky they'd take an air break after they got up there.

 

[Eminiteable]

That's not him right after the journey was complete. We don't see how much time there is between them reaching the top of Zunesha and them standing in front of the gate.

We don't even focus on Caesar at all in that panel; he's almost off of it.

We know that the gate is literally the first thing anyone see's when they arrive at the country and it's not far away at all from the landing zone: and we Caesar's gang are pretty much in the same spot, there isn't reason to assume they spent an extended period of time off-screen doing something when we are given zero reason to believe that, and based off Caesar's performance later in the arc he clearly wasn't tired.

He's barely out of it in this panel yet Oda still felt the need to notify the audience that he was tired by his dialogue and having him further back than the other two.

 

[Damage3245]

The fact that he could do what he did on Zou says a lot.

Not really. Even more time had passed for that.

They were in a hurry, idky they'd take an air break after they got up there.

Why not? They certainly didn't seem like they were in a rush. Some of them were just standing around after they had arrived in the forest.

They aren't shown hurrying over to the gate.

We know that the gate is literally the first thing anyone see's when they arrive at the country and it's not far away at all from the landing zone: and we Caesar's gang are pretty much in the same spot, there isn't reason to assume they spent an extended period of time off-screen doing something when we are given zero reason to believe that, and based off Caesar's performance later in the arc he clearly wasn't tired.

In Dressrosa Caesar goes from huffing and wheezing on this page to looking completely fine on this page. If you were just judging off of the second page, you'd never know that Caesar was tired at all.

And the events of those two pages are, what, a matter of seconds? Easily less than a minute.

So there's no reason at all why an equally little breather at the top of the Zunesha would mean that appears Caesar fine there.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, so let me quickly break down on all methods of calcing Dressrosa's size I have been shown and what might go against them:
Damage’s calc:
-Assumes Beach size is constant
-4 steps

KingTempest’s calc:
-Extrapolates from travel speed that can additionally be uncertain due to the influence of wind and possible other factors
-2/3 steps (depending on whether you count the wind calc itself as a step)

Examination calcs:
1.
-Assumes ships are the same size (reasonable from what we see)
-Low End, as foreground stuff is scaled to background stuff
-3 steps
2.
-Possibly slight High-End as Marine Ship is in foreground
-3 steps
3.
-4 steps, although one is just scaling the height of a human. Otherwise precise.
4.
-scales from something pretty small which is a common source of imprecision
-Assumes Beach width is constant
-2 steps
5.
-To some degree scaled background to foreground, hence high-end
-2 steps
6.
-Scales from something very small, which often causes imprecision
-Background to foreground scaling, hence high-end
-2 steps
7.
-Possibly slight High-End as Marine Ship is in foreground
-4 steps

---

Now, based on this I find some worse than the others.

I personally don't like the wind calc. Such assumptions are worse than pixel scaling. Yes, the pixel scaling here isn't consistent, but that doesn't mean that using an otherwise worse method is any better.

I think 6 isn't great since it scales from something pretty small.

Aside from that, let's keep in mind high-ends and low-ends, as well as the number of steps, when comparing results:

Damage: 4 steps, 18.17 km
1.: 3 steps, Low End, 3.47 km
2.: 3 steps, Slight High End, 6.7km
3.: 4 steps (1 just scaling human), 5.9 km
4.: 2 steps, 3.3km
5.: 2 steps, high-end, 9.83 km
7. 4 steps, slight high-end, 48.25 km

The two I eliminated had King Tempest's 62.41 km and Method 6's 4.19 km, for the sake of reference.

It should further be noted, that many of those calcs are related. Specifically, Damage's, King Tempest's and Method 4 and 7 all use the same panel in the last step. So the results are technically not completely independent. This might explain why 3 of those 4 calcs result in the highest 3 results in the spread.

In total, it appears to me like taking the double-digit sizes would be neither in the interest of consistency nor safe low-ends.

From the ones remaining after this, 4 and 5 have the least steps, but 5 has also somewhat of an high-end. For 4 one could argue that if the other three that scale that way are considered bad, then this is too. There is also the constant beach width thing, I noted in my list of cons above.

1 is a low-end and hence compatible with higher results. That leaves 2 and 3. 2 is a slight high-end, while 3 has one minor scaling step more. They are also pretty close in value to each other. So I'm very split between them.
I would say that going with 3 is the safest option in that case, for low-ends sake, but if someone says 2 due to less scaling steps I would be ok with that as well.

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you for responding DT, and weighing through all of the options.

I am fine with accepting Method 3 based on your analysis.

 

[KingTempest]

Not really. Even more time had passed for that.

Most likely it hasn't even been 10 minutes. They wandered and saw injured people.

Why not? They certainly didn't seem like they were in a rush. Some of them were just standing around after they had arrived in the forest.

You mean when Sanji said "don't move" and went to go investigate?

They aren't shown hurrying over to the gate.

Fine

In Dressrosa Caesar goes from huffing and wheezing on this page to looking completely fine on this page. If you were just judging off of the second page, you'd never know that Caesar was tired at all.

And the events of those two pages are, what, a matter of seconds? Easily less than a minute.

The way you were arguing earlier about the 30 minutes you'd think it was like 10 minutes long.

So here's my question.
Why did Oda put mass emphasis on Caesar's energy restrictions and his stamina on the bridge but not up Zunesha?

So there's no reason at all why an equally little breather at the top of the Zunesha would mean that appears Caesar fine there.

This would have a negative effect on Caesar's health, as we know with heights that far up it would've been harder for him to breathe, shown in Skypiea (heck, even below Skypiea) when the air was scarce, and this is twice the height of The White Sea where people struggled breathing.

Wouldn't even be equal. Much less air on Zou

 

[Damage3245]

Most likely it hasn't even been 10 minutes. They wandered and saw injured people.

And as I explained, a few seconds is seemingly enough from Caesar to go from "tired" to "completely normal".

You mean when Sanji said "don't move" and went to go investigate?

Yes.

Why did Oda put mass emphasis on Caesar's energy restrictions and his stamina on the bridge but not up Zunesha?

Because he was compressing events quickly in the flashback to tell the story. It wasn't necessary to spend a panel showing them actually landing on top. We get jump cuts from them on the ship to Caesar carrying them up, to them at the gate, to them at the forest, etc.

 

[KingTempest]

And as I explained, a few seconds is seemingly enough from Caesar to go from "tired" to "completely normal".

What stops that from just being an inconsistency?

Because he was compressing events quickly in the flashback to tell the story. It wasn't necessary to spend a panel showing them actually landing on top. We get jump cuts from them on the ship to Caesar carrying them up, to them at the gate, to them at the forest, etc.

There was dozens of useless dialogue there, he didn't compress anything. He had whole fight scenes. They can show a war and the backlash from it but not show them landing on the island?

And you've still not countered the point that the gate was the first thing they would see on Zunesha when they landed, stated by both me and Emin.

 

[Damage3245]

What stops that from just being an inconsistency?

How is it an inconsistency? We have two cases of Caesar travelling. One where he is shown to recover to normal in a matter of seconds, and one where we don't see the immediate aftermath of him finishing the journey.

It's more of an inconsistency to asssume he was completely fine the 2nd time around.

There was dozens of useless dialogue there, he didn't compress anything. He had whole fight scenes. They can show a war and the backlash from it but not show them landing on the island?

I'm not talking about the entire chapter; but how the Twirly-Hat Crew arrive on the island is definitely compressed.

And you've still not countered the point that the gate was the first thing they would see on Zunesha when they landed, stated by both me and Emin.

It still appears to be dozens of meters from the edge of Zunesha's back to the gate itself. Easy enough for it to be possible that there was a few seconds where Caesar landed, the crew walked up Zunesha's back, and Caesar shrinks down back to human form and recovers from the journey.

Anyway, I've said enough on the topic of Caesar and Zunesha. I don't think there's anything left to be said or we'll be going in circles.

 

[KingTempest]

How is it an inconsistency? We have two cases of Caesar travelling. One where he is shown to recover to normal in a matter of seconds, and one where we don't see the immediate aftermath of him finishing the journey.

I'm referring to him breathing like he's about to die then starts screaming

It's more of an inconsistency to asssume he was completely fine the 2nd time around.

Nah, it just means the distance is shorter.
We see Caesar fly around a lot, not tired. We see him tired a lot doing other things. Now magically he just had ridiculous stamina and can regain energy in seconds?

I'm not talking about the entire chapter; but how the Twirly-Hat Crew arrive on the island is definitely compressed.

That's fair

It still appears to be dozens of meters from the edge of Zunesha's back to the gate itself. Easy enough for it to be possible that there was a few seconds where Caesar landed, the crew walked up Zunesha's back, and Caesar shrinks down back to human form and recovers from the journey.

Dozens of what?
The gate is right in front of Zunesha's back.
Like there's nothing that says that the gate is that far.

And again, he's breathing trash amounts of air. Doesn't make sense

 

[Damage3245]

@Armorchompy, @DemonGodMitchAubin, @Therefir, @DragonGamerZ913, @Wokistan, @Migue79, @Psychomaster35

Can I get your input on DontTalkDT's analysis in this post please? I'd prefer to get input from at least a couple other calc group members so that we can start proceeding towards a conclusion on here.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't know man, a lot of them look legit to me, I'm not sure there's one I really prefer

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

If I had to pick a method, I'd go with this method or this method

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you for commenting. Method 5 on there also looks good to me tbh. I'm fine with either that or Method 3.

 

[WrongIdea21]

the thread that was supposed to be an upgrade got a ridiculous end result, it should be for all of our favorite one piece verse, lets make a toss.

 

[Damage3245]

the thread that was supposed to be an upgrade got a ridiculous end result, it should be for all of our favorite one piece verse, lets make a toss.

I have seen plenty of downgrade threads result in upgrades, and plenty of upgrade threads result in downgrades. Sometimes you can't predict how these revisions will end up when they start.