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DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
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@LordGinSama dude, particle beams in general mess with atomic to possibly sub atomic structures given they can separate protons and electrons. They do this on a normal basis, weaponized versions of these mess with them too so idk where you’re getting this idea that it’s blatant false information.
the guidebook here literally said he fires particle beams.
@Firephoenixearl He did though. Literally in the cutscene that he meets Mundus for the first time he literally tanked the particle beam before Sparda DT activated.
Durability negation via matter manipulation. There’s multiple ways you can negate durability dude. Matter just happened to be one of those ways.
Except the beam didn’t go through completely in the cutscenes where he tanks it. The particle shots literally stop in his body and didn’t go completely through, also a little fun fact, mid level regen in general isn’t strong enough to fix atomic destruction. One’s on a way higher level for the regen to remotely bypass.
Again, matter manipulation can negate durability. This isn’t a hard concept to grasp. It’s really straight forward. Twellas here can vouch for me on this point since one of his favorite series has matter duraneg for days
the guidebook here literally said he fires particle beams.
@Firephoenixearl He did though. Literally in the cutscene that he meets Mundus for the first time he literally tanked the particle beam before Sparda DT activated.
Durability negation via matter manipulation. There’s multiple ways you can negate durability dude. Matter just happened to be one of those ways.
Except the beam didn’t go through completely in the cutscenes where he tanks it. The particle shots literally stop in his body and didn’t go completely through, also a little fun fact, mid level regen in general isn’t strong enough to fix atomic destruction. One’s on a way higher level for the regen to remotely bypass.
Again, matter manipulation can negate durability. This isn’t a hard concept to grasp. It’s really straight forward. Twellas here can vouch for me on this point since one of his favorite series has matter duraneg for days
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Yeah, depending on how the matter manip works, it can easily be considered dura-negation, take HF blades from MGS for instance, they negate durability by effecting the electron clouds of the molecules they come in contact with, dura negation via matter (quantum, in this case) manipulation
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Mundus fires 2 particle beams in that cutscene. 1 hits trish. The other is sent towards dante but dante just looks at it and yeets it away. Which one are you talking about here?
Not matter manipulation dude. You aren't manipulating matter here, you're just giving the atoms too much energy.
Same as point 1, specify which one. Maybe link the video with the time stamp so that we can be sure we're talking about the same moment here.
You didn't just say that.....pls tell me you didn't just say that. Did you really say that mid regen cannot regenerate a body part that was destroyed on an atomic level. Are you unironically saying that if you destroy the arm of a dude with mid regen, he cannot grow it back, because it was destroyed on an atomic levl.....? My god.
I hope that's just a momentary derp on your side and not you completely misunderstanding what the regen page entails. You need a way higher regen to regen from your whole body being atomically destructed/deconstructed dude, not a random part that was hit. You can EE the arm of a dude with mid regen and he'd still grow it back.
Exactly. Matter manip can (although i would say "IS" cus i don't think there are any cases where matter manip can't negate dura), but the reverse ain't true. Dura neg isn't matter manip. You aren't controlling matter in any way. At least not in this case.
Exactly my point, it's so easy in concept yet ppl still mess up.
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I literally just told you when he got hit by them. Right when he meets Mundus when Trish was being hung on the wall. On top of the entire fight he can tank the particle beams that dwarf his size.
You’re ignoring my point here. Affecting atomic structure is blatant matter manipulation. Characters that have durability negation through matter manipulation have these abilities for this reason.
Except for the fact that when he tanks the particle beams during the fight it literally engulfs Dante’s entire body. Destroying someone at an atomic level is by definition too much for mid level regen to fix. Especially when the beam is large enough to engulf Dante entirely.
what are you even arguing here? You mess with atomic structures to negate one’s durability. That’s you negating durability through matter manipulation.
You’re just cherry picking my points now. Can you actually disprove the fact that particle beams can manipulate the atomic structure and attack does on that level if people keep “messing up” as you put it?
You’re ignoring my point here. Affecting atomic structure is blatant matter manipulation. Characters that have durability negation through matter manipulation have these abilities for this reason.
Except for the fact that when he tanks the particle beams during the fight it literally engulfs Dante’s entire body. Destroying someone at an atomic level is by definition too much for mid level regen to fix. Especially when the beam is large enough to engulf Dante entirely.
what are you even arguing here? You mess with atomic structures to negate one’s durability. That’s you negating durability through matter manipulation.
You’re just cherry picking my points now. Can you actually disprove the fact that particle beams can manipulate the atomic structure and attack does on that level if people keep “messing up” as you put it?
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It seems like Glass was completely ignored my previous post. Particle Beams only ignore durability under certain, unlikely circumstances. A typical laser / particle beam doesn't ignore durability, those are for weapons that haven't even been succeeded because particle beams, inherently don't ignore durability unless it's been weaponized for the sole purpose of altering the targets Molecular structure.
It seems like you didn't pay much attention in physics class? Because a beam of particles doesn't always mess with atomic structure, Medical Ones that are specifically designed to do so so they can scan cancer cells, or weaponized ones which are still impossible till this day.
It seems like you didn't pay much attention in physics class? Because a beam of particles doesn't always mess with atomic structure, Medical Ones that are specifically designed to do so so they can scan cancer cells, or weaponized ones which are still impossible till this day.
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Yeah but we know Dante can just barrier them as he did in the cutscene. In the cutscene he eyeballed them off, what happens in the games doesn't mean it happens in canon too. Real dante may have barrier'd it, he may have simply dodged etc.
No, controlling the atomic structure is matter manip. Giving energy to it is not.
Not "especially". It's ONLY when it's large enough to engulf the entire body. And i already answered that.
No. You are, again, not messing with the atomic structure you are just giving energy to it. You aren't controlling the matter, you are just applying so much energy it goes and does whatever it wants. You aren't controlling the matter or manipulating it in any way.
I did a bunch of times.
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@LordGinSama oh so me responding to you is the same as me completely ignoring your previous post, I didn’t know that these two polar opposite things had some similarities. Yeah, weaponized for the sole purpose of doing so, much like how the article for particle beam weapons literally say just that, and Mundus uses a particle beam in the game, what part of that is hard to understand?
that doesn’t remotely debunk the point on weaponized particle beams literally stated to do that, and this is a fictional world with demonic powers beyond normal technology, what part of “weapons that aren’t usable” disproves the mere concept that weaponized particle beams affect the molecular structure?
@Firephoenixearl thats complete headcanon to say that stuff that happens in game doesn’t happen in canon. By that logic does using Doppleganger and Quicksilver in DMC3 only count for gameplay and not canon because he doesn’t use these against an opponent in cutscene? Or nearly every single weapon Dante wields that isn’t rebellion don’t count as in character weapons to use because we don’t see him use these weapons in “canon” despite him having canonical cutscenes of him obtaining said weapons? If we’re arguing the “he could” statement, he could also tanked the particle beams. This statement can go both ways.
You’re still affecting matter regardless if you’re giving energy to it or not, especially when it’s stated to affect its atomic or molecular structure. At best if you wanna stretch this, it’s at bare minimum a limited form of matter manipulation.
Ok... what part of that debunks my point?
I already explained this in an earlier paragraph I don’t need to repeat myself.
You barely did, all you said it it gives energy to it to mess with the structure, that’s not remotely disproving the fact that it messes with the atomic structure.
that doesn’t remotely debunk the point on weaponized particle beams literally stated to do that, and this is a fictional world with demonic powers beyond normal technology, what part of “weapons that aren’t usable” disproves the mere concept that weaponized particle beams affect the molecular structure?
@Firephoenixearl thats complete headcanon to say that stuff that happens in game doesn’t happen in canon. By that logic does using Doppleganger and Quicksilver in DMC3 only count for gameplay and not canon because he doesn’t use these against an opponent in cutscene? Or nearly every single weapon Dante wields that isn’t rebellion don’t count as in character weapons to use because we don’t see him use these weapons in “canon” despite him having canonical cutscenes of him obtaining said weapons? If we’re arguing the “he could” statement, he could also tanked the particle beams. This statement can go both ways.
You’re still affecting matter regardless if you’re giving energy to it or not, especially when it’s stated to affect its atomic or molecular structure. At best if you wanna stretch this, it’s at bare minimum a limited form of matter manipulation.
Ok... what part of that debunks my point?
I already explained this in an earlier paragraph I don’t need to repeat myself.
You barely did, all you said it it gives energy to it to mess with the structure, that’s not remotely disproving the fact that it messes with the atomic structure.
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That's on you to prove dude. We know he countered it in other ways in canon, are you actually saying to take gameplay over cutscene rn?
Yes, which is why we don't consider them in character.
Absolutely FALSE equivalency. We know those exist cus they exist and appeared in the cutscenes. They happened. This didn't. Please get a better equivalency.
Affecting matter =/= manipulating matter. And atomic or molecular level aren't qualifications for matter manip.
It's explaining your wrong view on matter manip. Just a bit of correcting. I've debunked your point in other ways.
That's about as much matter manip as heating objects is matter manip. So if you do consider heating stuff, matter manip that's the level of logic we have here.
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I think the only one who's not understanding is you, you yourself don't seem to understand how beams particles and weaponized Particle Beams work. I had made an entire post regarding on how typical Particle Beams, neutral Particle Beams and how Weaponized particle beams work. Not all Particle Beams distrust the molecular structure of it's target, the only one's that do are extremely complex weapons that can't even be made due to the lack of technology at our hands. What Mundus is doing is shooting a beam of particles, nothing more and nothing less.
Well first of all, once again you cleary don't have a firm grasp of what your arguing here anymore. For starters, it's only theorized that Weaponized Particle beams can do such, and one's never been successfully made. Secondly you can't scale a hax to the advancement of technology, and needless to say Devil May Cry isn't a futuristic verse.
And it's not that's it's usable, one's literally never been made because we lack the proper technology at our hands. We only have several failed attempts and failed research, so we get back to the point of Mundus's Particle Beam not being the same. There are dozens of Particle Beams, all with varying effects so attempting to scale the effects to soemthing we haven't even had any success with, and how we ourselves barely have an understanding as to how they work.
Long story short, your argument stems from a weapon that's been attempted several times and failed, and has extremely limited research. No other forms of particle beams actually disrupt the targets Molecular structure. But if you have scans that state Mundus's Particle Beam does then we can work with that.
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Bump.
So the general consensus seems to be the removal of Deconstruction, Resistance to matter manipulation and regeneration negation. At least those are the ones I vouched for which most of the users here agree with.
As for Earl's updated removal list he should probably state the ones he wants removed.
So the general consensus seems to be the removal of Deconstruction, Resistance to matter manipulation and regeneration negation. At least those are the ones I vouched for which most of the users here agree with.
As for Earl's updated removal list he should probably state the ones he wants removed.
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I mean, i just mark the ones that won't be removed, the ones that aren't marked by the end of the thread should be removed.
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I still have some things I wanna discuss here. Gonna be busy for the next couple days due to exams but I still have points to make here.
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There are no points, it's literally objective as far as the Particle Beam is concerned. The entire argument is based upon a theoretical weapon, which doesn't have proper evidence of it being able to do what it's intended to, the Pentagon stopped R&D for it for a good reason.
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How do you know there’s no points to be made when I haven’t even made my argument to begin with? Can you be patient for once and wait for the opposing side to discuss their points when they have the opportunity? Waiting for someone to argue isn’t gonna kill anyone.
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There's quite literally nothing to argue anymore on behalf of the beam stuff anymore, it's objective in nature given that particle beams don't disrupt the molecular bonds of targets, which automatically makes that point moot. A normal Particle beam is just a beam of separated photos and such, with an incredible amount of kinetic energy behind it.
Your argument is no different than a flat earther arguing that the world is flat when in face of hard scientific fact.
Your argument is no different than a flat earther arguing that the world is flat when in face of hard scientific fact.
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Bump
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Bumping again since it's been 1 week since @Theglassman12 said he'd comment on the matter manip. Whatever his argument may be.
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Okay yeah that I disagree with him once since Demon's regeneration stems from their blood. My arguement is against the scaling of them from scaling to every Demon so I'll apologize for that misunderstanding, wasn't my intent to agree with that.
This is what I'm arguing against, my dude. What I'm saying is that weaker demons don't share the same level of regeneration as stronger Demons, and yes I'm aware of the power thing which is what I was basing my argument off of. To clarify, I'm saying we shouldn't be handing out High-Mid Regeneration to every Demon in existence especially if they come from the stronger Demons.
Not the same, it's the same type of power soruce which the regeneration stems from but not the caliber at which they can regenerate. The Potency of regeneration lies within the power of the Demon, the potency isn't granted by the blood itself. Being superior doesn't mean much in regards to scaling regeneration, he clearly he superior to them given his blood from Sparda but that only applies to pshycial might.
Okay why would you assume I would say Dante tanked them??? Please give me more credit than that. And no they wouldn't if the opponents has regeneration, especially regeneration like Dante's that heals as he's being damaged. The reasons why bullets in real life tear shit apart is because the amount of KE they produce and in comparison to flesh and such, well they aren't durable enough to withstand all the force in one area. And Sid's regeneration feat shouldn't be Low-High either since plenty of his body still remained so it's more akin to Mid-High since it blew him up.
Since some people can't read let me clarify, I'm not saying Demons don't have regeneration by default like Earl, but what I'm doing is arguing against the notion of taking and scaling regeneration feats from stronger Demons and scaling them to weaker Demons since that's what's proposed in the Sandbox. Now I'd be fine if it was something like this "Low-Mid for the Weakest Demons, Mid for stronger and Mid-High for the strongest." or something along those lines.
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Uhm...you do know that the entire point of regeneration scaling or Dante negating regeneration was debunked thoroughly in this very thread right?
It being based on power is pure headcanon. Nowhere it is stated in the show, in fact it is contradicted.
And humans all share the same physiology yet not everyone can hold their breath for 22 minutes. Weird huh?
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1- no there are like 9 people that still disagree with you.
2- how? like legit whats this based on?there isnt a single instance where it is stated that a weaker demon has better regen than a more powerful one, as for "Nowhere it is stated in the show" it is indirectly implied, overall demon power comes from blood, regen comes from blood, so more demon power = better regen, in nico's report, all those abilites are implied to be amplified when dante is in DT that would include regen.
3- execpt that surviving underwater doesnt come from our physiology. not a very good analogy.
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are you honestly arguing this right now? sid low-high comes from the fact that he regened from blood, yes some of his body remained but that does nullify the feat, he still regend from blood which is low-high, and here you go missing the entire point again, no one is saying that sid regen's feat is low-high, everyone knows that, im saying that what happened to sid when he got tore apart by dantes bullets should be the same thing that happened to him when he got struck by hundreds of bullets in Vol1. here is the scan if you want to see it. he got struck by hundreds of bullets within a time frame of a few seconds thats at least 20 bullets hitting dante per second so yeah safe to say that he got tore apart by that.
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Are you putting more weight on the DMC supporters than a neutral party that's also staff? If you are that is pretty sad.
Again, headcanon on the reasoning. It doesn't have to be stated that weaker demons have better regen, we straight up see it with our own eyes. What would need to be stated is "stronger demons have better regen" which, again you are using straight up headcanon to argue for. Where is the statement that stronger demons have better regen? I don't need your headcanon, i need the facts. i can show you feats of weaker demons having better regen than stronger demons though, the opposite of my argument though is just your raw headcanon?
Yeah good luck.
The f? So being able to hold our breath isn't part of our physiology? Excuse me? Do you live in the same planet as me?
No dude. Please no. Please don't tell me you compared 2 of the strongest guns in the entire series that also happen to be some of the strongest anti demon guns that were made specifically for Dante to hunt demons to average guns you find in shops. Don't tell me you actually did that.
Also Sid's feat is legit to begin with because we see his blood take shape. We never see that for dante. If sid didn't just SHOW that he regened from his blood we would say high mid for sid too.
And to top it all off, if he had really gotten tore to pieces from the bullets his coat wouldn't have been intact. His coat was strictly said to be full of holes, if his body had exploded in pieces from the bullets so would his coat. Stop overplaying the feats. Regenerating from bullets is mid.
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you mean the people that are knowledgeable of the verse? yes i am.
now tell me earl, what does " not only can he move faster hit harder than anyone in the room, his wounds heal up in a flash" mean? because im pretty sure it means regen gets enchanced if you have more powerful demon power, and no it has to be stated otherwise its contradicts alot of other statements out there including the one above, and it doesnt even make any logical sense to begin with, Overall demon power including regen comes from demon blood, complete fodder demons have shown mid-high feats, what sense does it make to assume that a very powerful demon USING the exact same source of power to have less potent regen like dude just stop
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Just going to add that two of DMC supporters that disagree with the downgrades are Staff
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That also are ok with the whackiest things? That were ok with deconstruction when it was added even though now they gave up? That were ok with other things that are completely wrong from their very foundation? That's quite the trustworthy votes you got there. And i don't remember ever being proven wrong on my argument.
So by your logic DT has more demon blood than base dante? What the demon form does is transform his body from human to demon, due to that he becomes better at well...being a demon, meaning demon power, physical strength, regeneration. So he's not part human anymore. Not "the stronger the demon the better the regen".
Oh no it doesn't, i got the feats.
Because having the same power source doesn't mean you are specialized the same way? This argument is like saying "oh well give AoT Annie equal to eren regeneration cus it comes from being a titan and she's a titan" despite the feats showing otherwise. So 1 side has feats showing otherwise the other has headcanon, i wonder which one is being more reasonable?
Oh who exactly? Cus some of the points were so bad even the dmc supporters said "ok that's fair", let's see how neutral these staff are shall we?
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In this thread is Glass and Red. What are the points that are pretty bad?
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Hmm....glass, let's see, his first argument on the thread:
Directly going against the site standards. Seems fair yes.
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OK, what does Glass comment contradict az standards?
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Wdym? It contradicts the standard directly. Being hti by AZ isn't "resistance to AZ". Yet glass was defending that.
And i can't find any comment from Redgrave in this thread.
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Bump
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its has better demon power which comes from blood, i got this scan to further prove that, which comes from nicos reports describing boss dante in the special edition / Vergil dlc. and again, it states more demon power = better regen
already said many times it comes from actual statements, again show me statements that suggest weaker demons have better regen than more powerful ones cus RN all your previous arguements are based on assumptions.
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As i said, no. It has nothing to do with it. Otherwise beowulf would have better regen than golems, which he doesn't. So again, raw headcanon based on the interpretation of a sentence that is heavily contradicted by the game.
I got the actual feats fam.
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how is it contradicted by anything? and how is my literal interpretation headcanon? "once he lets loose with all that demon power, he'll be faster hit harder, and heal up whatever scratches you give him to boot" beowulf got his regen neged, again since regen comes from physiology (we legit have 4 scans for that right now) he should've regend his eyes even if he had mid-low and again Sid dying in 1 shot from E&I kinda disproves eveything you just said,
mind showing them?
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Not really. Other demons like golems can regen just fine from Dante, but Beowulf can't? Vergil and Dante can regen from their own attacks? But other people can't? Sid regenerates from the very same Dante's shots, but after a fight he can't? And there are obviously many more cases i can name here.
Yet the same E&I couldn't finish off a pre match Sid with those very same shots. Bad argument my guy. Bad argument all around.
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pretty sure golems not dying are just game mechanics to make the game have more diverse enemies, as for sid, dantes first attacks against major enemies usually dont negate regen as shown when he was fighting that monkey demon back in Vol1, dante cuts him in half he regens, dante does the same thing again and suddenly he cant and there was no sign of him being weakened or anything, he even says "your weapons are useless against me" before getting slashed
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Headcanon that's contradicted by their description of how they should be killed. They outright tell you "they will regenerate from normal attacks so you have to wear down their vitality". Very reminiscent of "cannot regen endlessly if shot over and over ain't it?
Headcanon to support you adding fictional abilities that were never stated, shown and are contradicted by other things.
Even dante wasn't minding being cut by vergil in their first fight. Doesn't help that the next stab left him wounded.
Casual trashtalk. Cus the weapons sure as hell weren't useful. Meaning it was just the usual cocky bad guy that wants to trash talk by feigning invincibility.
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In defense of Glass. Attacks of objects that have AZ do not give manipulation or resistance by the standards, but they do so when the target of this attack ends up frozen, something that was discussed and accepted, and is even within the standards of the page AZ feats in fiction
In this case it is exactly what happens with Frost since his AZ attacks can completely freeze his target.
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