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- #361
Ofc they will freeze the target, the point is "if they freeze the target in AZ".
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DMC Downgrade #2: Hax Edition
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
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normal attacks, and it doesnt matter its clearly game mechanics, most demons have shown regen feats and they dont have those healing abilities ingame,
they are shown, i legit gave an instance where it happened lol
why the hell would he state this if he was weakened by the first cut?
what are you even talking about here? their first fight in DMC 3? or overall in the series? i dont remember any instance where dante got stabbed in the chest by vergil and he didnt go down after that. also being "wounded" in some contexts means being weakened or tired as we clearly see no wounds on the character when its stated.
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I agree with earl on the subject of regen
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- #364
It's not, they give you a description of the demon itself. Unless you want to disqualify every description in all the DMC games. You can't cherry pick here, in 1 moment you use "Dante releases all his demonic power and punches harder is faster and heals up instantly (which can be easily said to be explanation of game mechanics cus that's what happens in game). Then discount a description that is just as legit as that.
No, we have seen moments where demons are incapable of regenerating, but as i've said before that is very easily explained by demons' regeneration not being infinite as i've explained several times in this entire thread, including (as i said earlier) the golem description with the fact that they only stop regenerating after you beat them up enough depleting their vitality.
To feign invincibility to Dante's attacks, or claim victory then and there. We know demons' regeneration gets worse over usage, it explains it pretty well.
First fight in DMC3, Dante is incapable of regenerating from a mere stab at the end of that fight. Even though he is otherwise VERY capable of regenerating from Vergil's cuts. So again some times they regen, sometimes they don't from the same person, however that is pretty much always consistent with the fact that their regen isn't endless.
I've explained this whole issue in a previous post in this very thread you can check that if you want a full detailed explanation on why that is. But the "you are wounded" is absolutely referring to wounds. Do search my post on this topic it should make it easier to understand.
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all the description says is that the demon has regen, and then explains how to fight it in game, what even is your point here?
because of they're being negated,because otherwise we'd have to go against the statements saying that demons have regen in their physiology, and NO the golem does not die because of your pummling, it dies when its regen gets overwhelmed, you can hit it as much as you want, but if you dont finish it by overwhelming its regeneration, it heals up
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why would he do that though? like legit they have no reason to lie in that situation
execpt he does, you literally see no wound on him, and on top of that he survives, if he couldnt regen why would he survive?
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- #367
That the demon has regen that Dante cannot normally surpass without continuously shooting it down. And as i've said "it is in game description not pure gameplay". And if we ignore that we ignore the "demon power scan" from dante as that is also referring to gameplay, we also ignore the pain empowerment as that is also referring to gameplay.
We can't cherry pick here boi.
No we don't, regen coming from physiology doesn't mean it's endless. It's like saying "Since running comes from our physiology we cannot get tired of it ever", which is dumb for reasons i don't have to explain.
It does die of the pummeling, you need to deplete it's vitality otherwise it won't go down. And yes you overwhelm it's regeneration. Besides if something can fully regenerate from a stray leg, shooting holes in it ain't gonna do you much.
Yet he turned out to be wrong. Clearly showing he was just overly arrogant and underestimated his opponent. You don't really have much of an argument here cus the dude did turn out to be wrong so whether you call it feigning invincibility, being overly arrogant or just straight up an idiot, it doesn't change the fact that he turned out to be wrong. Meaning the statement he made wasn't legit or anything to go by.
I have covered that "issue" too in my post. Ok found it. Just read this. Post 159
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The Monkey arguement shouldn't be used, Dante cut him in half, which is Low-Mid to regenerate from and afterwards he died after Dante cut his head off, which is Mid. It's a failure to regenerate from Mid amounts of damage, not Dante negating his regeneration.
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its says absulotely nothing about dante not being able to bypass its regen in the actual description , where are you getting that from?
wasnt your argument for beowulf being cut is because he doesnt have regen in the first place? regardless you still didnt prove that their regen gets weak overtime
it clearly doesnt lol, you can shoot it as much as you want and it will continue to regenerate if you dont finish it off.
okay so dante cuts him in half regens no problems he acts all cocky & shit with no signs of weakness, then dante slices off his limbs then suddenly he could not regenerate, it sounds straight like negation to me bro.
at best you can get that their regen gets slower from that, not that its not infinite and again they dont die in these situations, if they cant regen anymore they should die.
nope first he cut off his limbs and he couldnt regenerate them, then cuts him in half again from which he could not regenerate Then after all that he decaps him and no he didnt die from the initial decap he died when dante crushed him.
"you scratchs do not bother me" again blatantly states he could regen from anything dante throws at him then
suddenly the demon could not regen its limbs anymore
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I don't know, that description seems to make it pretty clear that if you drain the demons vitality it dies without regenerating.
Which implies that no regeneration is being negged, instead it has this as a weakness
Which implies that no regeneration is being negged, instead it has this as a weakness
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you need to overwhlem its mid-high regen to kill it, this isnt even my point about negation, i simply said it doesnt prove that dante doesnt have negation
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I'm sorry but if it has mid-high regeneration and can die just from having it's legs damaged then I would lean far more on this being a weakness of the creature instead of just assuming that Dante is negating their regeneration, especially because the monster's regeneration is tied to a source that is just depleted through damaging it.
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this isnt one of my points to prove negation, its just there to prove that demons can regen indefinitely and regen comes from blood its been stated
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- #374
"To defeat it weaken it with constant gunfire". Yeah idk man, definitely doesn't sound like it's saying "to defeat it just negate its regeneration" nor "to defeat it just overwhelm its regeneration".
Yeah, his regeneration is practically non-existent. He couldn't heal 1 eye in who knows how many years, whereas other demons can easily regenerate from the same hits.
I definitely did prove it. But this point was to make fun of how dumb the "it cannot ever be taxed cus it comes from physiology".
Yeah man "weaken it with constant gunfire". Idk about that, sounds like you're making shit up, im just going by the descriptions here.
Looking at the scan again, Dante just cuts off his limbs and bisects him in what is practically a single swing. And the only question the monkey has is "you were on the verge of death". He definitely did far more than he did in his previous attack.
Yes, they should die which is what happens to golems, what vergil and dante say they will do to each-other after long fights etc. Being hit when your regeneration is taxed will definitely leave to hits you cannot regenerate from unless you recover, yes meaning you can die in that state.
No, you need to weaken its regen, not overwhelm it.
It does. Otherwise dante wouldn't need to continuously shoot it before slicing it apart
You literally never even remotely made an argument regarding this.
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Also type 5 immortality negation is still possible to be bypass and negated though and dante flatout killed void mundus. Considering we have characters like ren who can neg all forms of immortality, immortality type 5 negation isn't out of left field so...
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- #376
You don't need to neg it though. It's just NPI.
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except interacting =/= killing them
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- #378
And except that being non existent doesn't give you regeneration or anything like that. All it does is "you're technically not even alive", it's like saying you need immortality negation to turn a zombie into mush.
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that part says nothing about regeneration it just says shooting it will nullify its ability to poison you, because if you attack in close range it will poison you, the part where it says it will regen if you dont finish it off essantially means shoot it till it dies or else it'll regen, that could mean alot of shit, but in this context it definitely means overwhelm its regen, since there isnt a limit to how much it could regen
if it comes from physiology, and said physiology is blatantly saying that more demonic power = enchanced regen, then it wouldnt make any sense to assume beowulf couldnt regenerate. especially since he's shown like 2 times in the entire series and never had any chance by the plot to show his regen other than his 2 encounters with dante & vergil the former had shown regen negating abilites with sid & that monkey
it legit states he cut off his limbs with a single stroke then he cut him in half not sure what are you even arguing here, all of this actually does not matter we legit have statements that dantes demonic power is superior to most demons and that said demonic power enhances regen, so regen scales regardless
okay then why didnt he die then? according to you, he got stabbed with yamato and he didnt regen from that (which is contradicted by the games visuals yet you use the same visuals to prove your argument) later he got stabbed with the rebellion and he some how survives all of that. then after that he wakes up then falls again bleeding out (despite seeing no injury in his chest btw) how is he alive?
yet dante doesnt need to do that with other demons with regen feats? it clearly there just to make the enemies in the game more diverse
i didnt but others have and i agree with said people
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Oh so does that mean that Dante can EE with his own strikes then? Cuz the thing is immortality type 5 means void mundus cant be traditionally killed...at all unless he has EE as stated in the actual page so unless the suggestion is that dante has erasure existence with his strikes then logically he should be able to neg type 5 immortality instead.
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- #381
No otherwise any character with NPI would have type 5 immortality negation. The thing is to negate type 5 would mean to turn a non existent being into an existent being...which needless to say isn't what Dante does.
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im sorry but interacting with something non-physical but still exists clearly =/= interacting with something that doesnt exist entirely
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- #383
No again, you're contradicting the text. The text says "weaken him with constant gunfire", stop making shit up. You need the gunfire to weaken him, then cut him then weaken his him again only to then kill it.
The text is laid out so simply and straight forwardly that im amazed you can still make these random ass claims about it.
Same shit as Attack on Titan, regeneration comes from physiology yet not everyone has regeneration, they're just different beings. It makes a ton of sense Beowulf couldn't regenerate cus everyone and their grandmother regenerates from attacks from Dante and Vergil, but Beowulf didn't. Again contradicting the feats to give random powers to your profiles.
That he did that very same thing you said. He cut off his limbs then almost instantly after cut him in half.
You can easily say the wound just wasn't enough to kill him, dante was alive with a sword in his chest, he does have a form of type 2 immortality so he obviously wouldn't die from that alone. If vergil had continued to batter him he would have died. Or if you don't like that (for whatever reason) you can just chuck it up to PIS, they wouldn't just kill off the main character. Honestly you don't even need to stick to 1 interpretation here, pick whatever you want, they all answer it.
Name demons that have shown impressive regeneration feats that dante doesn't need to do that with.
And "others" in this case stands for who? There is no provided evidence for the fact that dante negates regeneration, everything is just "feats" but said feats can be explained a million other ways without it being regeneration negation as it contradicts other things.
That is wrong, NPI can include interacting with non-existent beings.
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This first bit is blatant misinformation, the Moneky never failed to regenerate it's limbs after Dante cuts them off, nor is he stated to have negated his regeneration. Secondly, the decapitation most certainly would have killed him given him, at that point it was over for the Monkey and Dante just quickened the process by smashing the head.
And that isn't a statement about him being able to regenerate anything Dante can throw at him, he can regenerate from limb dismemberment and disembowelment which are both Low-Mid. Dante bypassed that by inflicting a greater amount of damage, such as inflicting Mid damage on a being with only Low-Mid. There isn't any sort of statement nor implications of Dante ever having any sort of Regeneration Negation, and using this while also intentionally saying shit happened in a scan when it didn't isn't valid enough for a justification.
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okay now this is getting kinda frustrating alot of these arguments ignore most of what i posted here & are repetitive
so im just going to re post all the evidence i have for regen scaling in hopes of staff solving this issue soon cus this is pretty much going no where and im just done arguing further about this topic until input from staff came
1- regen comes from demon physiology specifically demon blood :
proof 1
for the record about this statement : just because he wasnt right about bypassing dantes regen (which implies negation btw) does not mean the second of implication of regen coming from blood is also wrong if anything its been consistently shown that demons have regen
proof 2
this is just to support the first scan.
2- said regen gets amplified with demon power and it also comes from blood :
proof and it cant get anymore blatant than this
proof that demon power also comes from blood
3- beings such as dante have superior demon power to most demons out there that would include people with low-high feats mid-high feats etc...
proof and it also implies that regen gets better with demonic power and that power comes from blood as well
these are concrete in game lore and logically this would mean that dante and some mid tier demons should have better regeneration than the fodder demons (golems empusas etc........) and later on sid. most of the counter arguments usually ignore 1 or 2 of these facts to justify their positions
so im just going to re post all the evidence i have for regen scaling in hopes of staff solving this issue soon cus this is pretty much going no where and im just done arguing further about this topic until input from staff came
1- regen comes from demon physiology specifically demon blood :
proof 1
for the record about this statement : just because he wasnt right about bypassing dantes regen (which implies negation btw) does not mean the second of implication of regen coming from blood is also wrong if anything its been consistently shown that demons have regen
proof 2
this is just to support the first scan.
2- said regen gets amplified with demon power and it also comes from blood :
proof and it cant get anymore blatant than this
proof that demon power also comes from blood
3- beings such as dante have superior demon power to most demons out there that would include people with low-high feats mid-high feats etc...
proof and it also implies that regen gets better with demonic power and that power comes from blood as well
these are concrete in game lore and logically this would mean that dante and some mid tier demons should have better regeneration than the fodder demons (golems empusas etc........) and later on sid. most of the counter arguments usually ignore 1 or 2 of these facts to justify their positions
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<Repetitive arguments
<Reposts the same things that have been debunked several times
Whatever floats your boat mate.
<Reposts the same things that have been debunked several times
Whatever floats your boat mate.
There are feats to prove otherwise
Because V used to be vergil who has already shown regeneration. He wasn't just any random demon.
Feats say otherwise
LMAOOOOOO. That argument. You use a statement from Urizen to Nero, even though you yourself argue Nero has regeneration and Urizen was freaking wrong to begin with.
Feats say otherwise.
Repeat of a scan from earlier. Feats say otherwise.
Yet they clearly don't.
They don't ignore it, they outright bring feats to disprove them.
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Agree to disagree but I agree as far as continuing to argue is concerned, that being said this'll be my last reply.
And as we've gone over, all Demon Blood Grant's is the ability to regenerate and even then we have evident outliers to this rule. And for the record, Gilver was confident that Dante would have died from having his heart removed, which is below Mid, let alone Mid-High. Unless your saying Gilver was wrong, and in which case your also saying his statement about Demon Blood is also false since they come from the same statement and source. You can't simply pick and choose what parts of a statement are true, that's called cherry picking.
Just implies Demons have regen, and again outliers like Beowulf exist.
That's for Dante, the guys who's a cut above the rest of Demons, and that's done via his Devil Trigger which is a transformation and not something he has by default. Not that this scan insinuates that Dante's regeneration suddenly allows him to regenerate on a greater level than lower class Demons, since by nature not all of them possess the same level of regenerative prowess.
That's not proof either, that's just Urizen smack talking Nero. Nero is only 25% Demon, while Urizen is 100%. Dante and Vergil are only 50% but they're directly related to Sparda making them stronger and faster than the other Demons, but with Nero who's only a fraction of that he'd be assumed to be weak as Urizen assumed. Point is that he was completely wrong here, therefore you can't use it.
You still have yet to provide citation for this claim.
Flawed argument as I said earlier, this only applies to Demons like Dante and Vergil with DT. Not only that but none of that text remotely translates into "Dante has better regeneration than any other Demon!" hell the amount of damage Dante can take isn't even increased, his regeneration just gets faster. At best this would give Dante "higher via DT."
None of the counterarguments ignore anything, we're directly addressing the scans you've provided which ignore context about characters being wrong, leaving out context and so on and so forth. At this point this'll be my last comment here and I'll ask the staff who they agree with.
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i'd like to add the "feats" that he actually talked about are 2 cutscenes from one of which he uses visuals to prove his point and his point are contradicted by those same visuals and it doesnt matter they dont prove that their regen gets taxed, the "wounded" statements are directly contradicted by the visuals, beowulf got his regen negated and even if we deny that its just pis because it would be contradicting many of the statements i posted above which are concrete game lore.
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And i've explained that.
That's a straight up lie.
Headcanon af.
Except PIS is the last resort, we don't say PIS unless there is no other explanation, but here there is, like many other demons, Beowulf doesn't have regen, not all demons have regen.
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- #391
The more contested point right now is probably regeneration. DMC supporters are arguing that everyone should have regeneration, because it is (although rather loosely imo) implied that all demons have regeneration, the issue with this is that not only do they use it to give people who are...pretty much notorious for never having regenerated things like High-Mid regeneration, but this would also scale to the top tiers in the form of several layers of "regeneration negation" and "resistance to regeneration negation".
On the flip side there is me, lord gin and a couple of others who agree that that is pretty ridiculous due to the existence of massive anti-feats throughout the series and some rather clear evidence of a limit to their regeneration based on feats. This would answer all the issues that the first option would create and would also not need any additions to the profiles based on feats.
In other words it's a case of do we add several layers of regeneration negation and resistance to it to the god tiers of the verse and still run into issues or do we just look at the feats and go by what is clearly shown without needing to assume any random abilities or resistances.
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I have been summoned to give input, but I don’t have the time at the moment to read through 4 pages of back and forth, could someone please summarize the arguments
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I literally gave a summarization of the most disputed point. Read the comment above yours. Smh.
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Oof my bad
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Well from what it sounds like, I feel like shown feats are more reliable than vague statements, however if it is stated that all Demons have regeneration, then that shouldn’t be discredited just because we don't see it
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legit until now no one replied let alone debunked my scans showing that demon power = enchanced regeneration
not only in his DT form its stated that he has superior power to most demons, its a transformation where dante unleashes all that demon power he got and from said demon power his regeneration gets enchanced. some very fodder demons showed mid-high feats using the same power source, naturally it scales to the high tiers and god tier demons, idk whats the issue with this.
"Showing that the fact that they show no wound doesn't mean there is none (might be a designer choice, maybe they just forgot idk)." is not a very good explanation since they actually show wounds and said wounds disappear seconds later
hmmm, okay so we actually see no wounds on dante when he says that nor does he look wounded he just looks very tired, so donnu about that being a straight up lie
would you care to list those off?
way to miss my point there, i was just trying to prove that demon power also comes from blood. and i dont need it any way the first nico report of dante should also prove that
and yet griffon doesnt state that he's not vergil anymore or something similar, he states that he's not a demon anymore
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- #397
The statements aren't as straightforward as that however. To give the scans themselves:
"You are not a demon now, if you get shot you're dead" (to a guy who was previously a demon, and a demon with feats of regeneration at that.
"No matter how much demon blood you have you cannot regenerate" (To again, a demon who has feats of regeneration)
Both of these times are referring to demons who have shown regeneration feats, and just because you can say "demons have regeneration" generally speaking, that wouldn't mean there aren't exceptions to such a rule. Similar to saying "humans can swim", but that is in a general sense and not because there aren't any exceptions.
The other point they make is "the stronger the demon the better the regeneration" because of this scan. However not only is that referring to a transformation, but that is also directly contradicted by multiple things in the entire show. There are fodder demons against which you need to go through great lengths to kill, and there are bosses that never even remotely show any signs of regeneration be it in short periods or long periods of time.
Seemingly being fairly clear that the "releases demonic power" is to explain his transformation more than it is to say "the more power you have the better your regeneration is" as (as i said) there are several cases throughout the show that directly contradicts this.
This is my point for the "clear feats that happen several times should take priority over rather vague statements that can be interpreted in other ways".
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Reading through the 4th section mostly, I share the same thoughts as Mitch in that Earl is making more sense. Individual feats do make more sense then creating multiple loopholes yes. But I have a feeling someone like Glass might consider Earl misunderstanding what he's proposing and like to hear a response from him or other supporters if they can explain what's the more context is better.
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- #400
Ofc, i explained my view of the whole thing and gave the scans the opposition used, other people are free to give their side too. As long as it doesn't get too cluttered and repetitive (as i doubt any of the staff would want to read through that).
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