Twellas
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  • I find Kenshiro's pic kinda bad, with its weird expression, head proportions and dull pose.
    Do you know any good shot from the manga or such that could replace it?
    (If you like this then nevermind, but I think a better one could be found)
    Twellas
    Twellas
    I can't think of a good full shot tbh, the second one should be more than ok, especially compared to Kasumi's
    SamanPatou
    SamanPatou
    Agree, do you think it should be rendered or it's better to keep the background?
    Twellas
    Twellas
    I personally really like the background, I don't think it needs to be removed, Ken pops out enough for it to not be necessary
    I just saw the updates on Ken's intelligence, and I think all that stuff is enough to give him extraordinary genius (a CRT is needed, though, I think)

    I also realized it's time for me to read HnK again, I missed/forgot so many things the first time.
    Twellas
    Twellas
    an intelligence upgrade was among my ideas tho, do you want me to tag you on the thread?
    SamanPatou
    SamanPatou
    Sure, but I will not be very useful, given that I don't have the manga at hand (I have the entire series at home) and I don't precisely remember most contexts.
    Twellas
    Twellas
    Nice Hylics PFP. Kind of a funny coincidence considering I'm working on profiles for the series lol
    Armorchompy
    Armorchompy
    alright, sure. Armorchompy#0708
    Twellas
    Twellas
    Uuuhhhhh why isn't the moon busting feat in there? Wayne tanked the explosion in the cutscene and Gibby's body parts survived it. It might also be interesting to calc the KE of Wayne re-entering orbit at the end of Hylics 1
    Armorchompy
    Armorchompy
    let's talk on discord, geez
    You got Discord or some shit? I want to discuss possible MGS feats and the like in privacy with you.
    Chariot190
    Chariot190
    hell it doesnt even account for literal skyscrapers. Dont think I should have to mention every skyscraper is an easy Class M feat tacked on per building. One alone accounts for dozens of ray.
    WeeklyBattles
    WeeklyBattles
    The fact that Raiden was put into a short coma immeiately after on top of losing his other arm coupled with Ottacon saying thatRaiden was lucky to be alive at all really solidifies that he shouldnt scale to it
    Chariot190
    Chariot190
    Ignoring the fact the 8-A feat is HIS FEAT.
    How dense are you?
    You realize that if he stopped it, then walked away, he'd be fine, bam 8-A feat he took zero damage doing.

    It's only when he tried to keep up an 8-A feat, effectively being hit by 8-A levels of energy every second, per second for 50 seconds, did he eventually fail.

    >he was put into a short coma

    You mean knocked out?
    "a state of deep unconsciousness that lasts for a prolonged or indefinite period, caused especially by severe injury or illness."
    It sure as fuck wasn't a coma when he was up and ready to fight again by the end of Act 5. The word you're looking for is "was knocked out by getting hit with effectively 50+ 8-A attacks".

    "lost an arm"

    Yes, he did, but you're acting like said arm didn't output and halt 8-A levels of energy for a period of damage.

    >almost died

    He almost died for more than just that but i don't expect you to know the details here.
    "I am Metal Gear Solid 5: The Phantom Pain, and you are too..."



    What did he mean by this?
    "We need to do something Snake, the Metal Gear is Rising and it wants Revengeance"


    Just gonna copy/paste

    Idk if scaling Intelligence is allowed, actually. They're superior to him in skill, but while they do manage to fool him at times (actually, do they?), it's via situational advantages, kinda like how Light Yagami manages to beat L despite being canonically a little less smart than him, or how literally everyone important in Danganronpa doesn't have Extraordinary Genius by managing to beat Junko intellectually. Or how Joseph Joestar doesn't have Extraordinary Genius for... you get the point

    Also, I'm pretty sure Ocelot's slipped back into his real personality by the final phase of the MGS4 final boss, and Snake does still outmatch him- though you could argue that by then they're just two tired old men slugging at each other by then. I don't think Big Boss easily overpowering Snake in CQC at the ending counts as an anti-feat though- Snake was emotionally destroyed, shocked, and probably a fair bit weaker physically.

    Also, looking at the other message thread below this, do we know Raiden's more skilled than Sam? After all, his stats are so much higher than Sam's that he could have realistically won even if less skilled, and in fact the cutscene in which he lands the killing blow has him just overpower Sam in a blade struggle, then stab him iirc.
    Twellas
    Twellas
    we could discuss this stuff on the CRT thread, but there will be much more pressing matters, such as RAY having a Relativistic feat that could scale to all of MGR, and Peace Walker having a Nuclear statement that could scale to every Metal Gear in the verse along with all of MGR.
    Armorchompy
    Armorchompy
    Well, if nothing else, you won't have to worry about me arguing against those. But, I feel like someone else's gonna bring up Snake scaling to the MGS3 crew anyway.

    He has managing to fight evenly against Ocelot for several minutes, of course that's at the end of the game but it still is a skill feat for Old Snake. Apoptosis or not, Snake's recent meeting with a microwave would definitely more than make up for that. And yes, he didn't flinch or anything, because he's a trained soldier who's been doing this for decades, but he definitely wasn't at 100% efficiency mentally.

    Also what do you get "two hours" from? We have no canonical statement on the main part of the game's canon length, and Snake Eater's a lot longer than that for a player- even a speedrun barely goes under two hours. Though, if the skill gap is so big that Snake needs AD to win, he'll probably have lost before it can kick in- though I don't doubt there's gonna be some situations where it'll come in handy.

    If RPL would play no role in the fight, then why did Raiden boast about it, saying Sam's techniques wouldn't work on him for long? You're contradicting yourself. And saying there's no canonical evidence it was used is a little bit of a stretch, as the same could be said about Armstrong- and considering we currently scale Sam to Ripper Mode's speed, you're gonna have to get that changed if you disagree.

    Raiden's advantages massively outweigh Sam's, though. He's got higher stats, a mode that allows him to boost them, secondary weaponry such as smoke grenades and all, the other Winds' weapons, and again, Lifting Strength, which he uses to deliver the setup to the finishing blow (and while parrying is a skill thing, it also uses LS, to the point that if Sam starts parrying your attacks in that fight, you can actually eventually break through his guard with a bit of luck, with the sound effects and the animations suggesting Sam was indeed overpowered). In fact, looking at the finisher, Raiden knocks away Sam's sword, activates blade mode, slashes it away, then backsteps, does a spin, shouts a one-liner and thrusts forward, and throughout all of this Sam is in the same position, not even making an attempt to dodge or do anything else- pretty indicative that he's being outsped.

    Meanwhile, Raiden knows Sam's quick draw now, lessening its advantage, and his vacuum cuts would leave him exposed to Raiden's own slashes, as he executes them with his sword, and can't parry while doing that. As for his sword, it being better at cutting doesn't matter, since both ignore durability, but neither of them can cut the other's sword. As for its length, that is an advantage but that is not how Sam uses it in the fight, instead going for dashing blows and only rarely attempting to directly overwhelm Raiden's guard.

    Sure, skill mattered, but with so many advantages for Raiden, he would definitely win if they were tied in it, or even if Sam was a bit more skillful.
    Twellas
    Twellas
    Yeah but it's not like Ocelot scooped Snake up from the microwave and fought with him straight away, he waited for Snake to wake up, then gave a 20 minute long monologue, waited for Snake to get up AND THEN they fought, Snake of course wasn't 100%, but he surely wasn't as impaired as someone whose cells are literally killing themselves as they fight.

    We DO have a canonical indication as to the time that passed between The Boss' second to last fight and the last one tho. Naked plants the C3 and is then ambushed by The Boss, he fights her and bascially gets skill stomped. While Snake is on the ground, if you activate the first person view mode, you can see The Sorrow, holding up a sign which says that in 13 minutes the C3 is going to explode, then, exactly 13 minutes later the C3 goes off. Snake then proceeds to fight Volgin and the Shagohood, which takes about 30 minutes of pure cutscenes without considering the gameplay in-between, since we know from the 13 minutes scenes that cutscenes display time correctly (as in, if a cutscene lasts 20 minutes, 20 minutes have passed in the game universe) we can say that around 30 minutes have passed, but let's be conservative, and let's say that the gameplay part took up an extra hour canonically, it took around 2 hours for Snake to go from getting skill-stomped by The Boss to being at least equal to her. Of course, there is a significant degree of assumption in this argument, but it's not too far fetched at all, and besides, 2 hours is just a personal hestimate.

    Raiden boasted about it... because, you know, Boris told him to "be careful"? Why are you trying to turn this into a debunk for the RPL out of nowhere? I am not contraddicting myself, you are just going out of your way to try and turn everything into a debunk for the RPL. Yeah it's not a stretch at all, there is LITERALLY no canon evidence of Raiden going RM, and I don't think there'll be any problem getting the speed thing changed, since i was the one who put it there as a place holder to begin with. There's no proof that Raiden went Ripper Mode in that fight, if he did, the fight would have ended completely differently, and as such, Raiden simply didn't go Ripper Mode, which makes the point of RM being one of his advantages moot, btw.

    He's got higher strength and stamina, that's it, same speed, he didn't use Ripper Mode, so there's no point in listing it as an advantage, Raiden doesn't use secondary weaponry in-character and Dok straight up states that "Technology will not be the deciding factor here, this battle will be won by sheer force of will", so no, Raiden didn't use his tech, Raiden also doesn't canonically use the other WOD's weapons. Are you seriously using a gameplay exploit as a piece of proof that Raiden didn't outskill Sam but just overpowered him? So, you're telling me that Sam wasn't outspeed throughout the WHOOOOLE fight, and then gets outsped at the very end? And don't forget that Sam also has Blade Mode, with Raiden's same multipliers.
    Yeah, Raiden knows about the quick draw, so what? It's still a slash that is significantly faster than Raiden's base speed and 2x Blade Mode, knowing it's there helps, but overlooking it just because Raiden knows about it is ridiculous. The Vacuum cuts outrange any of Raiden's moves significantly, so no, it wouldn't leave Sam open, especially since they travel, and as such can cover all of the ground in front of him. Sam actually uses quite a bit of thrusts, so he does kinda use the Murasama's superior length to his advantage.

    TLDR: There's no canon evidence that Raiden is less skilled than Sam, had they been equally skilled either would have had a chance to win, and since Raiden won, and it's never even implied that he merely overpowered or outsped him we must assume that he's AT LEAST SLIGHTLY superior to him skill-wise, which is what i stated below, i never said that Raiden is a lot more skilled than Sam, <= means "comparable, but the guy on the right is slightly better"
    Yo, CRT's are unlocked right now, if you need my help in MGS CRT ask me any time
    Twellas
    Twellas
    The skill chain i created looks something like this (<= means "comparable but slightly superior")

    Venom Snake<Rookie Solid<=Genome Soldiers<Solidus<Raiden<Liquid=FOXHOUND<=MGS1,2,4 Solid<=Ocelot(Virtuoso mission)<<Naked(Virtuoso mission)<Cobra Unit<Naked(Snake Eater)<Ocelot(EOG)<<The Boss<=Big Boss

    Then for MGR it's something like this

    MGS2 Raiden<<MGS4 Raiden<=Patriots Raiden<<WODs<Sam<=MGR Raiden

    Tell me if you think there are some problems with the scaling or if you want some info as to why I put someone where he is, most of this is subjective/ supported by little evidence since many of these characters either never met or never fought at their best.
    SpookyShadow
    SpookyShadow
    I don't see a problem, but wouldn't Venom scale directly to Big Boss, as he has all of his memories and experience?
    Twellas
    Twellas
    There's actually no evidence that he has all of his combat experience and skill, all we know is that he has his memories and that he was MSF's best soldier, that's it
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