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Devil May Cry Downgrade #1: Speed Edition

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@Fire I don’t think I am, this has been going on before you even joined the site. The same members and the same people making decisions based on personal opinion over accuracy is absolutely a big deal as that undermines the entire point of the site.

Regardless, I am derailing
 
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Anyway i will go over what was said in terms of points, if i do miss anything please do quote me on that.

1. The only argument about this i remember is the "trish came from the sky as a lightning bolt", i just want to say it's not where the electricity starts that makes it "true natural lightning", so just cus the same electricity she normally uses was now used by her but vertically doesn't make it natural lightning, to get the speed rating it needs to be caused by the clouds, that is natural lightning, not the fact that it wasn't used from the hand to an opponent, but rather from high to the ground.

2. @KnightOfSunlight "You forget Griffon summoning CtG lightning from a thunderstorm in his boss fight, Trish moving as bolts of lightning, and over half of Nevan's arsenal of attacks. MHS+ stays via pure volume of feats."
Show me Griffon. Trish moving as bolts of light isn't natural lightning. "over half of Nevan's arsenal" is either not really lightning attacks (it's using electrified bats) and the ones that are lightning Dante does not react to them. Having a lot of feats where all of them are not legit doesn't make the rating fair.

@Dienomite22 "And if Dante is fast enough to Just Block one lightning bolt three times that has already engulfed his body I'm pretty sure that's more impressive than reacting to 3 different lightning bolts in quick succession."
OOOOF. You don't block a lightning bolt 3 times, you block the lightning's "hitbox" ,which is by very definition "game mechanics" and means nothing outside of gameplay, 3 times. Not the same thing.

3. @KnightOfSunlight Ugh where to begin with this one. First of all you're arguing sth that you cannot give a video of, let's all keep that in mind. Second of all it is not "parry right as it hits you", it is "have it up right as it's about to hit you". Emphasis on "have it up" he doesn't have to move as it's coming he just needs to have it up, by the time it's gonna hit him, and considering these lasers do not have explanding hitbox frames, that literally makes all your claims of "it can be done" impossible, and hey, if it's not and i am wrong do give me a video proving me wrong. As for the "cannot have time to prep" when did i mention prep? "Cannot set up his defenses before hand" yes he can, he can set up his defenses right before it starts since he cannot react to the laser itself due to having no "speed" the hitbox just appears.

The jump: The room being full of enemies does not make the beams any faster nor does it have any other sort of difficulty other than "a lot to deal with" which isn't speed. "while not looking at them" ok if you are trying to argue this from the fact that the player can react due to having a 3D camera (can see things behind dante that he would not be able to if it were FPS, i would highly suggest you never debate DMC again, it's just not for you. But whatever it is a room filled with ppl doesn't give anything else other than high awareness even if we were to take it at peak interpretation. Dante is just aware of the enemies around him, doesn't give him any more speed, doesn't make his jumps somehow be speed now (idk how your argument even relates to this) nor does it make his jump have any less I-frames.

"Nitpicking frames will reveal that, yes, they didn't expect humans to actually react to light speed, because it is impossible to do so. But using this as the crux of your argument is foolish" Ah yes, so we're using gameplay scenes, even though as you admit they are not exactly as they should be, so wouldn't this mean that we should stick to just cutscenes then? As you're saying the gameplay is flawed so removing only what you want from the game (frame data), but keeping the "feats" is plain cherry picking what you want, which is a disgusting way to go about these things. Admiting that the frame stuff exists, but removing the parts you want to wank the speed of the verse? Eh, not good.

4. To everyone who's arguing for this. Can we just stop using "subjective opinion on what the scene i posted was" as a factual argument to defend this point when Trish's feat of pushing Dante away from this beam literally exists? Can we just do that? Instead of going through thousands of mental gymnastics trying to defend this feat. If we could do that it'd be much appreciated.

5. Everyone seems to agree this is whack.
 
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Firephoenixearl said:
Show me Griffon.
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I can do you one better. Multiple instances of Nevan summoning lightning bolts from above and Dante dodging them, Griffon summoning CtG lightning in DMC5, and every Griffon boss fight in DMC1, where Griffon can even turn into and move as lightning to flee. You also somehow deny Trish materializing from an actual bolt of lightning to not be her traveling as actual lightning.
Firephoenixearl said:
OOOOF. You don't block a lightning bolt 3 times, you block the lightning's "hitbox" ,which is by very definition "game mechanics" and means nothing outside of gameplay, 3 times. Not the same thing.
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Except you ignore one important thing: You are using Game Mechanics as a reason to ignore an actual feat of combat and speed done by Dante. The full, uncontestable point of the matter: Dante can block, parry, and dodge bolts of lightning. The game mechanics of him "blocking the hitbox" is not and never will be an argument against that. The feat being gameplay does not decanonize it or allows us to ignore it. The mechanics behind said gameplay being used as anything close to evidence is absolutely, fundamentally, ridiculous on your part.
Firephoenixearl said:
3. @KnightOfSunlight Ugh where to begin with this one. First of all you're arguing sth that you cannot give a video of, let's all keep that in mind. Second of all it is not "parry right as it hits you", it is "have it up right as it's about to hit you". Emphasis on "have it up" he doesn't have to move as it's coming he just needs to have it up, by the time it's gonna hit him, and considering these lasers do not have explanding hitbox frames, that literally makes all your claims of "it can be done" impossible, and hey, if it's not and i am wrong do give me a video proving me wrong. As for the "cannot have time to prep" when did i mention prep? "Cannot set up his defenses before hand" yes he can, he can set up his defenses right before it starts since he cannot react to the laser itself due to having no "speed" the hitbox just appears.

The jump: The room being full of enemies does not make the beams any faster nor does it have any other sort of difficulty other than "a lot to deal with" which isn't speed. "while not looking at them" ok if you are trying to argue this from the fact that the player can react due to having a 3D camera (can see things behind dante that he would not be able to if it were FPS, i would highly suggest you never debate DMC again, it's just not for you. But whatever it is a room filled with ppl doesn't give anything else other than high awareness even if we were to take it at peak interpretation. Dante is just aware of the enemies around him, doesn't give him any more speed, doesn't make his jumps somehow be speed now (idk how your argument even relates to this) nor does it make his jump have any less I-frames.

"Nitpicking frames will reveal that, yes, they didn't expect humans to actually react to light speed, because it is impossible to do so. But using this as the crux of your argument is foolish" Ah yes, so we're using gameplay scenes, even though as you admit they are not exactly as they should be, so wouldn't this mean that we should stick to just cutscenes then? As you're saying the gameplay is flawed so removing only what you want from the game (frame data), but keeping the "feats" is plain cherry picking what you want, which is a disgusting way to go about these things. Admiting that the frame stuff exists, but removing the parts you want to wank the speed of the verse? Eh, not good.
Click to expand...
See above. The final point of the matter is: These enemies attack with laser beams. Dante can dodge those beams and block them, even when a room is full of them and he is being swarmed by other targets. The gameplay mechanics of how such is done does not make it less of a feat, and ignoring such a feat because it is done in gameplay is absolutely ridiculous. Cease this argument at once, and find an actual one. If you keep using Game Mechanics as an argument for this downgrade, you will have a long list of games you need to rescale to reflect this new, ridiculous standard. Such as:

Dark Souls (Bolts of Natural Lightning can be dodged, but you would argue that the character is only dodging their hitbox)
Legend of Zelda (Beamos Beams can be dodged by Link)
Bloodborne (Same as Dark Souls)
Sekiro (Lightning Reflect)
InFAmous (Cole can dodge a laser of radiation and fights people who use natural lighting, but because the player is only reacting to the "hitbox" and moving out of the way, it doesn't count by your standards)

And so many more.
Firephoenixearl said:
To everyone who's arguing for this. Can we just stop using "subjective opinion on what the scene i posted was" as a factual argument to defend this point when Trish's feat of pushing Dante away from this beam literally exists? Can we just do that? Instead of going through thousands of mental gymnastics trying to defend this feat. If we could do that it'd be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
No. We will not stop arguing this, because we have an actual point. Dante reflects the beam after it is fired. Trish pushing him out of the way is an outlier and PIS of the highest order, and can have all sorts of reasonings as to how she did so (seeing the beam charge and moving before it fired, etc.)

How can you honestly tell people to stop arguing for something they believe in, especially when they have an actual argument to make?
 
Earl i recommend you to check two comments from mine, where one i give two Cloud to Ground attacks from Nevan, and on another comment i explained Royal Guard, a description from the game itself tell us a valid information about it, Royal Block only happens on the last second, before hitting you, so is a point blank reaction noneless, doenst matter visuals, frame, angle camera and etc, the lore from the game counts that Dante did block at point blank, hell you even have a abilitie named royal release which works on the same way as Royal Block, but instead of blocking, it unleashes a powerful counter attack, and still a point blank reaction based. And the game allow you to Royal Block and Royal Release anything, so the hole ''dante didnt react to those attacks'' and Dante dont react to lasers is flawed, and Nevan is stated to use lighting....

About Trish, a discussion already happened and was agreed that Trish uses real lighting. She Have the AP and her powers conducted on metals.

And no Earl majority here disagrees with you.
 
On the bunch of links you sent? Can you give me the time stamps? Makes it much easier for both of us to debate from that point onwards.

"Dante can block, parry, and dodge bolts of lightning." Can you actually prove this happens though? And it is not just gameplay? You say ok to the gameplay part, we're on the same page there, it cannot be contested. However you go on to saying this happened even outside of gameplay, and can you prove dante reacts to these lightning bolts and doesn't instead use aim dodging, or predicting the attack do dodge/block them similar to what the player does in gameplay? What proof can you bring me to say that "Dante Royal Guarded Nevan in the lore and he set up his block only when the bolt was near him instead of him having started his movement way before the lightning started and he only finished the blocking move as the lightning was near him (which needless to say wouldn't scale cus he started earlier)? Can you bring me this proof? Cus all you're saying is random statements with 0 proof whereas i am using facts from the feats themselves here.

See above. Can you prove to me that dante is dodging those lasers after they have been fired in the lore? Can you prove me that dante royal blocked these in the lore and only started moving for the guard after the laser was used? Just cus the fights happened doesn't mean the details you're speaking of happened, even though you're acting as if they did. Dante doesn't need to dodge or go for Royal Block the lasers after they have been fired to beat these guys, but you're acting like he does. Can you prove that? I see actually 0 proof on your side. And please do not use "other verses do this too" as an argument, as if implying that other statistics cannot be wrong. Argue your case only, don't point fingers at others.

"How can you honestly tell people to stop arguing for something they believe in, especially when they have an actual argument to make?" Because the arguments are literally based on pure opinions and even i have mentioned reasons for why my interpretation of the feat is just as legit. There are reasons to believe both, but none to conclusively lead to only one, making the feat very questionable. Unless there is some argument i missed in which case i apologize and do quote it to me i will check it. Also how is trish going from the wall to Dante after the beam was fired any worse than this?
 
If something happens in gameplay the feat can absolutely be valid. We don't just arbitrarily ignore gameplay-originated feats. If the game shows Dante blocking/parrying in-gameplay lightning, the man is blocking/parrying lightning, end of story. The fact that the lightning has a hitbox so he can mechanically do that is irrelevant.
 
We have the POV from certain people that it is sacrilege to use lore and statements for video games because it utterly contradicts gameplay and what's shown in-game, and now we can't even use gameplay to validate our verses?

I am still neutral, but this is an asinine viewpoint just because it's a certain verse.
 
Nevan's cloud to ground attacks.

Here you can see Nevan summoning Lighting Cloud to Ground at 1:20 and 2:50

And also here at 2:07 (note, the moment the floor gets electrified is the same moment when the lighting strikes the ground/the attack happens, so they happen on the same time and so Royal Blocking this attack equals to block lighting)


Firephoenixearl said:
See above. Can you prove to me that dante is dodging those lasers after they have been fired in the lore? Can you prove me that dante royal blocked these in the lore and only started moving for the guard after the laser was used? Just cus the fights happened doesn't mean the details you're speaking of happened, even though you're acting as if they did. Dante doesn't need to dodge or go for Royal Block the lasers after they have been fired to beat these guys, but you're acting like he does. Can you prove that? I see actually 0 proof on your side. And please do not use "other verses do this too" as an argument, as if implying that other statistics cannot be wrong. Argue your case only, don't point fingers at others.
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Lmao Earl going to dodge my points with questions now ? dont worry, what happens on gameplay is canon, and only feats that breaks the scalling are invalid, and look at this, the guide confirming the damn rock fires lasers, there is your canon Earl, and everysingle enemy that dante encounters are canon, the only thing you could argue is higher dificulty changing the enemys position and making them appear earlier in the game, which still wont make their canoncity disappear, since their appear on all dificultys anyway.

I going to ignore your last text, since everybody throwed reasons and proof and you just keep strawman the thread.
 
And again, you ignored another point, Dante can Royal Block anything in the game, and even Royal Release which is a point blank reaction COUNTER ATTACK.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
If something happens in gameplay the feat can absolutely be valid. We don't just arbitrarily ignore gameplay-originated feats. If the game shows Dante blocking/parrying in-gameplay lightning, the man is blocking/parrying lightning, end of story. The fact that the lightning has a hitbox so he can mechanically do that is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Except we're using "reacting to lightning" as the argument when he very clearly doesn't do that in gameplay either. So the issue is this feat of reacting to lightning is not to be found anywhere, it's just cherry picking what you want from gameplay. It's taking gameplay but disregarding the fact that he never reacts to anything.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Except he does react to lightning, multiple times throughout the third game. Royal Guard is just the nail in the coffin because of how focused it is on reaction. It being gameplay means jack shit cause the feat still happened.
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Except it didn't dude.

Show me 1 single case where he reacts. I keep asking for these, but you keep giving me faulty feats. He never reacts in those scans you show me. So where are these cases where he is reacting to the lightning?
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
I still think Earl makes sense.

In-gameplay Royal Guard is literally aim-timing and not dodging most of the time
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Still, dodging or not, Royal Guard with relevancy Royal Block works point blank reaction based, hell even Royal Release which is a point blank reaction counter attack based. And those two abilities works on all attacks, and so why the nitpicky with gameplay feats when the game itself tell us the description/small piece of the lore from the abilitie that confirms how it works. I would post from DMC 3 if i have it on the moment, but they still work on the same way as DMC 4 anyway, not that also DMC 4 could have retconed the information, so noneless is acceptable.
 
Also going to quote Mr_Mambu.

If something happens in gameplay the feat can absolutely be valid. We don't just arbitrarily ignore gameplay-originated feats. If the game shows Dante blocking/parrying in-gameplay lightning, the man is blocking/parrying lightning, end of story. The fact that the lightning has a hitbox so he can mechanically do that is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
People cmon, Dante can Royal Block and Royal Release anything, this automatic means Dante can react to anything (yes anything the only thing he cant block is leviathan's acid which isnt even a attack and stays on the ground there as a little obstacle that stays on the players path).
 
Firephoenixearl said:
He never reacts in any of the feats posted. He always has his guard up before the laser. So he's never reacting to the laser, always expecting it.
Click to expand...
No thats false, you are ignoring alot of things like: the fact is reaction based, all attacks can be royal blocked by dante and the scans from the abilitie description, which says the block only happens on the last second before it hits you. So again DOENST MATTER THE VISUALS, the game counts that dante blocked at point blank, that even works on the same way for Royal Release which is Point blank reaction based but instead of blocking, dante counter attacks the attack.

Please, pay attention, you guys are using weird visuals and frame, while the damn description from the attack proof is reaction based point blank.
Please, stop ignoring proof.
 
"last second" is too vague for this sort of level of reactions, within such short distances they happen in less than a second (Meaning that as it's shown, he does have to have it prepared shortly before), so no, without further stuff it can't be used for legitimate reaction speed.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Visuals are literally how we determine dodging feats dude what the hell are you talking about. They do matter.
Click to expand...
Irrelevant, they only thing that will affect is dante's position to calc the block, everytime Dante does a Royal Block the game counts that Dante blocked the attack at the last second before hitting him, thats is backed up by the description of the abilitie.
 
Bobsican said:
"last second" is too vague for this sort of level of reactions, within such short distances they happen in less than a second (Meaning that as it's shown, he does have to have it prepared shortly before), so no, without further stuff it can't be used for legitimate reaction speed.
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Aint vague, the description makes clear, the block only happens when there is one second left before the attack hits you.
Being short distance is relevant, but for for a reason that you likely didnt realize. This shows how slow lasers are for Dante, i will give you a example:
Imagine a character, he reacts to a SOL projectile, between the SOL projectile and the ground there is a meter to be covered by the SOL projectile , the character see the SOL projectile, and for him would take a week to the SOL Projectile move one meter.
Dante's feat on reacting to lasers follows this logic. For dante would take alot of time to a laser reach him, a point blank distance takes a second to him, while in real life would be alot less than one second.
The feat is still legit.
 
Since we are ignoring ability descriptions for gameplay screenshots I guess Dante has a new hax that lets him block an attack after it already passed through his body.

V and his familiars beating Elder Geryon Knight who is two bosses working together (Cavalier Angelo, a lightning angelo powered by Trish and Geryon, a variant of a demon Dante fought in DMC3 that slows and speeds up time). V and his familiars are able to react to Cavalier Angelo's attacks, a demon that uses CTG lightning travels as CTG lightning, and is powered by Trish and riding Geryon, a type of enemy that Dante has fought in DMC3, who was slowing down time for V and the familiars and speeding up time for itself (and Cavalier of course). V is 100% human and weaker than even Lady in physical Attack Potency and Durability.

Keep in mind V reacted to his familiar's (Shadow and Nightmare) attacks when they attacked him before making a contract.

If you sit here and tell me that the DMC3 Dante, Vergil, Arkham, and the demon bosses do not scale to V's speed then you're trolling.

It's honestly shocking that this is even being argued.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Firephoenixearl so you're ignoring the entire point of how Royal Guard works... can you debunk how it's faulty instead of just say "he always has his guard up" when that's not how Royal Guard's perfect blocking works?
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Except that's how it works. Royal Guard is about blocking in a certain amount of frames before the attack reaches you. However it is "having it up by that time" since lightning or lasers don't really move in frames in game it always ends up as "he had his guard up before the laser was shot" only a couple of frames, sure but still he did not react but rather expect the attack and starting the setup before the laser was shot.

For the feat to be legit he has to start the blocking animation after the laser has been shot, otherwise it just doesn't scale, it's not reaction at that point, it's prediction.
 
Dienomite......We are not ignoring ability descriptions though. We are explaining how that description doesn't mean he scales because he is predicting it, not reacting to it.

As for V, sure give me the feat and I'll judge it (a video with a timestamp or a scan if it's from the novels or sth).
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Dienomite......We are not ignoring ability descriptions though. We are explaining how that description doesn't mean he scales because he is predicting it, not reacting to it.
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Nobody debunked the description thing, the only thing you doing is trying to dismiss the description with visuals, while the description justifies the not so clear visuals (when they happen). From lying about people agreeing with you, to ignoring my points and scans, to strawman, to distorting arguments and points with: We are not ignoring description, but explain it'' While this didnt happen on any level, the only thing that happened was you using gameplay scans (which is debunked by the decription of Royal Block). That smell bad intentions for me.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Dienomite......We are not ignoring ability descriptions though. We are explaining how that description doesn't mean he scales because he is predicting it, not reacting to it.

As for V, sure give me the feat and I'll judge it (a video with a timestamp or a scan if it's from the novels or sth).
Click to expand...
Except what you are doing is ignoring the ability description. You're saying that Dante is predicting because he is pre-blocking in a split second frame visual that doesn't show a lightning bolt but ignore that the game registers that same split second frame as a lightning bolt attack (otherwise Dante would've taken damage) and the description of Royal Block that explains what is happening when Dante uses Royal Block.

Here's V vs Elder Geryon Knight:

You want the feats of V personally dodging his familiar's attacks, read chapters 5 and 8 of the Visions of V manga available on ********.
 
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You can "just block" by predicting though, i once again love how you're just saying "oh you're ignoring this" clearly without understanding the core problem being "finishing an action in time not necessarily being speed as you don't really need to react and can definitely have started earlier".

That fight with Geryon though ugh. The bolts of electricity Geryon uses are "definitely" not lightning, they don't even work how electricity is supposed to work. As for the electricity that comes from above, while that could be lightning (going just by the visuals) V is absolutely not reacting to any of them (or at least not to their speed).
 
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