2A (Possibly L1C) Devil May Cry - A relevant closer to a CRT

[SuperSonicTL]

This shouldn't be applied yet. If what Ultima says is legit, this is either an upgrade or a downgrade. I suggest you wait for DT's comment.

Okay. I'm wholeheartedly waiting then

 

[Deagonx]

I read through the blog.

Still, the abrupt end left one key point unaddressed: Demon World, as an infinite realm containing countless worlds, should logically qualify as at least Multiverse+ in scale, wouldn’t you agree?

The blog doesn't seem to make the argument that there are "countless" or infinite realms within the Demon World. Where does that come from?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I read through the blog.


The blog doesn't seem to make the argument that there are "countless" or infinite realms within the Demon World. Where does that come from?

No worries. The term "countless" is just used metaphorically here, considering how many dimensions we've seen across the Underworld throughout the franchise, especially in Peak of Combat.

As for other part where I mentioned "infinite realm", it's more in line with how the manga describes the realm as unending or endless. It’s a loose synonym to convey the vast scope. Feel free to check it out.

 

[Deagonx]

I recognize that the Demon World is infinite, and I recognize that it has multiple sections or realms within it, but is there any direct evidence that the number of realms is itself infinite?

If not, how would it be 2-A?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I recognize that the Demon World is infinite, and I recognize that it has multiple sections or realms within it, but is there any direct evidence that the number of realms is itself infinite?

If not, how would it be 2-A?

^
This isn't really a tier you can get from inference as something containing tier 2 structures is already infinite itself. Pretty much need direct statements saying it can hold 2-A amount or has 2-A amount.

 

[Robo432343]

isn't scaling to an infinite multiverse another way to reach 2-A

 

[Fixxed]

I believe just some infinite space that contain some amounts of space time doesnt automatically get 2A rating

It can be 2A or even low 1C if that infinite space limited the size of those universes, so no matter how large the universe grow it still the same size for the infinite space, it will make the gap between every universes are always infinite not unquantifiable by default

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I recognize that the Demon World is infinite, and I recognize that it has multiple sections or realms within it, but is there any direct evidence that the number of realms is itself infinite?

If not, how would it be 2-A?

I'm focusing on the structure and capacity of the Demon World rather than the actual count of realms within it. The fact that it can inherently contain such a vast number of space-times gives it the potential for 2-A scaling. Even if the number of realms isn't infinite, the structure of the Demon World allows for an immense, multidimensional space-time framework. I understand your concern, but that’s part of the limitation within the tiering system, it sometimes emphasizes quantifiable counts over structural complexity

I believe just some infinite space that contain some amounts of space time doesnt automatically get 2A rating

It can be 2A or even low 1C if that infinite space limited the size of those universes, so no matter how large the universe grow it still the same size for the infinite space, it will make the gap between every universes are always infinite not unquantifiable by default

My friend, let me ask, what exactly do we call such structures if not 2-A? This realm clearly has the potential to hold 2-A constructs within it, so why shouldn’t that justify a 2-A rating?

Even if we follow the standards (which often seem to lack a logical basis) but lets set them aside momentarily and look at this with common sense: how does this not meet the criteria? Alternatively, it would make more sense to consider it Low 1-C, given its structural superiority over the worlds beneath it on an infinite scale. It’s certainly far beyond the typical scope of just mere 2-C.

 

[Hasty12345]

My friend, let me ask, what exactly do we call such structures if not 2-A?

This question has already been answered in the thread.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

This question has already been answered in the thread.

I understand it could be argued as either 2-C or Low 1-C, but my question was more to prompt his perspective on which direction he would lean toward in these conditions. Personally, if it comes down to a choice, I’d lean toward the latter or moreso a pseudo version of it, as the former just simply doesn’t hold up in this context.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm focusing on the structure and capacity of the Demon World rather than the actual count of realms within it. The fact that it can inherently contain such a vast number of space-times gives it the potential for 2-A scaling. Even if the number of realms isn't infinite, the structure of the Demon World allows for an immense, multidimensional space-time framework

So if you're conceding that there isn't direct evidence of it actually containing infinite universes, can you clarify the virtue through which you concluded it "can inherently contain" an infinite amount? What is it about the structure that tells us that?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

So if you're conceding that there isn't direct evidence of it actually containing infinite universes, can you clarify the virtue through which you concluded it "can inherently contain" an infinite amount? What is it about the structure that tells us that?

I understand your point, but my conclusion isn’t about direct evidence of a literal infinite count, rather, it’s based on the realm's structural design and dimensional complexity, which inherently supports an immense, possibly infinite, space-time framework.

Basically the Demon World’s structure operates on a higher dimensional level aka accommodating an indeterminate, vast number of space-times without limitation. Even if we can’t quantify this as "infinite", its capacity is functionally limitless in a way that supports 2-A scaling, given that it holds dimensions beyond countable space-times.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm confused, what is the blog trying to establish? It just has multiple mentions of infinite space times which was never contested for DMC, but surely doesn't amount to 2-A.

If the argument is "The Demon World has the potential to contain infinite universes" then it's definitely not supported by the blog. Mundus' realm not having time just means he made a realm that doesn't have time? Why does it mean it is dimensionally larger or has the capacity to contain infinite universes inside it? This is the only thing I can conceive the blog of arguing.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'm confused, what is the blog trying to establish? It just has multiple mentions of infinite space times which was never contested for DMC, but surely doesn't amount to 2-A.

If the argument is "The Demon World has the potential to contain infinite universes" then it's definitely not supported by the blog. Mundus' realm not having time just means he made a realm that doesn't have time? Why does it mean it is dimensionally larger or has the capacity to contain infinite universes inside it? This is the only thing I can conceive the blog of arguing.

It seems there’s a misunderstanding about the focus of the blog. The mentions of other dimensions are supplementary as they’re not the main argument. The central point is in the very first section:

"The world is born of darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals."

Alternate translations even describe this as "infinite darkness, the container of chaos." Here, "chaos" represents the original primordial state, where both the Human and Demon Worlds coexisted. It was only due to Pluto intervention that these worlds became distinct realms whereas "container" or "crucible" is depicting it as a structure, a container, which is infinite in relation to Human World, a space-time continuum it contains within its vicinity alongside many other dimensions.

Let me quote my previous reply for better understanding:

I'm focusing on the structure and capacity of the Demon World rather than the actual count of realms within it. The fact that it can inherently contain such a vast number of space-times gives it the potential for 2-A scaling. Even if the number of realms isn't infinite, the structure of the Demon World allows for an immense, multidimensional space-time framework. I understand your concern, but that’s part of the limitation within the tiering system, it sometimes emphasizes quantifiable counts over structural complexity

In any case, the blog may be refined with clearer descriptions and scans in the future, but for now, this is the intended interpretation.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm deleting the two previous comments, they aren't helping. Stop.

 

[Planck69]

@Ningenron Enough with that. This is a CRT.

 

[Deagonx]

I understand your point, but my conclusion isn’t about direct evidence of a literal infinite count, rather, it’s based on the realm's structural design and dimensional complexity, which inherently supports an immense, possibly infinite, space-time framework.

Basically the Demon World’s structure operates on a higher dimensional level aka accommodating an indeterminate, vast number of space-times without limitation. Even if we can’t quantify this as "infinite", its capacity is functionally limitless in a way that supports 2-A scaling, given that it holds dimensions beyond countable space-times.

This genuinely does read like ChatGPT. But regardless: I don't need you to explain your position, I understand what your claim is. I am asking you for your evidence.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

This genuinely does read like ChatGPT.

Yeah, I did admittedly used GPT to fix the grammar part for better conveyance but the overall message is the same. Just wanted to make it abit more understandable, that's all.

But regardless: I don't need you to explain your position, I understand what your claim is. I am asking you for your evidence.

In any case, the evidence is right on the blog. The "Darkness" is Underworld, said Underworld that has statements for having realms within its vast scope. The realms it holds doesn't tie up with eachother whatsoever, even if it is spatially infinite and, on top, it requires actual portals to traverse through them. The Darkness, or better yet, the entire Underworld itself in this case is unending Darkness which is further backed up how it is depicted as a container in regards to a "Ray of Light" that is Human World, a 4th dimensional construct to be specific. Hope this reply sounds convincing.

 

[Hellformer]

Yeah, I did admittedly used GPT to fix the grammar part for better conveyance but the overall message is the same. Just wanted to make it abit more understandable, that's all.



In any case, the evidence is right on the blog. The "Darkness" is Underworld, said Underworld that has statements for having realms within its vast scope. The realms it holds doesn't tie up with eachother whatsoever, even if it is spatially infinite and, on top, it requires actual portals to traverse through them. The Darkness, or better yet, the entire Underworld itself in this case is unending Darkness which is further backed up how it is depicted as a container in regards to a "Ray of Light" that is Human World, a 4th dimensional construct to be specific. Hope this reply sounds convincing.

I think DeagonX is asking you for explicit evidence for demon realm being able to contain an infinite amount of space-time continuums.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I think DeagonX is asking you for explicit evidence for demon realm being able to contain an infinite amount of space-time continuums.

Well... That's something I don't have but instead, I've the structure itself being large enough to contain infinite amount of space-time constructs which is no different then how 2A is depicted on the site. Basically, the end result will be the same regardless.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, I don't see how any of those things demonstrate that the DW is capable of containing infinite universes within it. Just that it 1) is infinite and 2) has realms. You can't combine those to qualities and automatically get 2-A.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Yeah, I don't see how any of those things demonstrate that the DW is capable of containing infinite universes within it. Just that it 1) is infinite and 2) has realms. You can't combine those to qualities and automatically get 2-A.

From my point of view, I feel like you are not understanding the arguments here correctly. The "Demon World" is depicted to be "infinite" as a "container", a structure, in relative to a 4th dimensional construct being treated as insignificant in comparison to it. This is clearly a hint towards it's 2A (Multiverse+) capacity at the very least.

 

[Hasty12345]

From my point of view, I feel like you are not understanding the arguments here correctly. The "Demon World" is depicted to be "infinite" as a "container", a structure, in relative to a 4th dimensional construct being treated as insignificant in comparison to it. This is clearly a hint towards it's 2A (Multiverse+) capacity at the very least.

Based on this very description, it cannot be “2-A”, this is almost verbatim the definition of low 1-C.

2-A is entirely unfounded.

 

[Deagonx]

Demon World is depicted to be infinite as a "container", a structure, in relative to a 4th dimensional construct being treated as insignificant in comparison to it.

If your argument is based on the Human World being described as a "ray of light" being infinitesimal then that would be an argument for Low 1-C, and we had a CRT on this very topic. It was an incredibly arduous one that went on for 16 pages before reaching a conclusion that the phrase "ray of light" isn't a sufficient basis for regarding the human world as infinitesimal to the Demon World.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Based on this very description, it cannot be “2-A”, this is almost verbatim the definition of low 1-C.

2-A is entirely unfounded.

2A is practically just a pseudo case here. I know this is more towards the justification of Low-1C but my end point is, the overall structure is anything but 2C as how it is rated at the moment, especially given how it is depicted throughout the series as a boundless space that contains infinite sized space-time continuums within it.

 

[Hasty12345]

2A is practically just a pseudo case here. I know this is more towards the justification of Low-1C but my end point is, the overall structure is anything but 2C as how it is rated at the moment, especially given how it is depicted throughout the series as a boundless space that contains infinite sized space-time continuums within it.

“anything but 2-C”

You’re heading closer towards low 2-C if you’re persisting the containing structure is infinite 4D in size and not low 1-C.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

If your argument is based on the Human World being described as a "ray of light" being infinitesimal then that would be an argument for Low 1-C, and we had a CRT on this very topic. It was an incredibly arduous one that went on for 16 pages before reaching a conclusion that the phrase "ray of light" isn't a sufficient basis for regarding the human world as infinitesimal to the Demon World.

And what was the reason for it? Just a bit of a nitpick that it is talking about spatial dimensions beneath an insignificant 5D space (something we used to accept for such cases mind you) that has no basis whatsoever? As for the CRT, most of it went on different arguments that dealt with temporal dimensions and what not? The spatial arguments came later half way through those threads and when it was finally going somewhere with ultima replying back, it was locked right on the spot and I know the situation where Tanin and you had discussions over that sudden closure.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

“anything but 2-C”

You’re heading closer towards low 2-C if you’re persisting the containing structure is infinite 4D in size and not low 1-C.

Except I've a basis for it, a basis that takes the overall structure in comparison to a space-time continuum within its vicinity. A clear implication that it can hold infinite amount of these same constructs.

 

[Hellformer]

Wait how is demon realm Low 2-C if it already has three space-time continuums? It's either 2-A or Low 1-C

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Wait how is demon realm Low 2-C if it already has three space-time continuums? It's either 2-A or Low 1-C

Not too sold on this working, honestly.

To elaborate: 2-C-through-2-A at the moment, from what I understand, work pretty much as pseudo-5-D tiers. This is to say that being 2-C and up isn't just about affecting the alternate universes themselves, but also about affecting a tiny little 5-D space that we assume exists between them. This is why we say that the difference between levels of Tier 2 is "unquantifiable due to the 5-D gap between universes," and why messing with universes that exist as the fusion of a bunch of universes doesn't breach past Low 2-C.

So, if we say the Demon World contains the Human World, but nevertheless is still just 4-D (Which is extremely plausible, by the by), I don't think this gets past Low 2-C.

But, on the other hand: If we assume it's 5-D, and then apply the logic of "Well, it doesn't contain infinite universes actually, but it could contain infinite universes, so blowing it up is the same as blowing up infinite universes," things get a little odd. Because, obviously, a 5-dimensional space can fit uncountably infinite lower-dimensional objects in itself, not just countably many, which under the aforementioned reasoning would make the Demon World and a hypothetical feat of destroying it Low 1-C, not 2-A, because that's how many universes it could contain.

Yet, if you do this, you also indirectly have to argue that most (In principle, all, due to what I said above) feats on the wiki that are currently rated at 2-C and up are actually Low 1-C, because they all assume the existence of a 5-D space that's getting affected to produce the rating, which can in turn have the exact same logic applied to it.

So, yeah, wack. I'm not the one behind the Tier 2 standards, though. I believe @DontTalkDT is better informed on the nitty gritty of it than I, so, calling him here to say his piece.

 

[Deagonx]

And what was the reason for it?

You can read through the thread if you like, but it's not really relevant here unless you're arguing for Low 1-C again, and I'd prefer not to derail.

Just a bit of a nitpick that it is talking about spatial dimensions beneath an insignificant 5D space (something we used to accept for such cases mind you) that has no basis whatsoever? As for the CRT, most of it went on different arguments that dealt with temporal dimensions and what not? The spatial arguments came later half way through those threads and when it was finally going somewhere with ultima replying back, it was locked right on the spot and I know the situation where Tanin and you had discussions over that sudden closure.

I don't really understand the question. If you're referring to your earlier thread, it wasn't closed suddenly. The premise of the thread had been overwhelmingly rejected. I called DT and Ultima to the thread after painstakingly clarifying what Tanin's argument was, with the expectation (and his agreement) that if both Ultima and DT disagreed, the matter would be settled. He attempted to continue arguing after DT and Ultima disagreed, but at that point it had been rejected 6-2 and the whole point of bringing Ultima and DT was to definitively end the argument, not to start a whole new argument with the very people that wrote the standards.

Wait how is demon realm Low 2-C if it already has three space-time continuums? It's either 2-A or Low 1-C

That would be 2-C, no?

 

[Hellformer]

That would be 2-C, no?

Uh yeah either 2-C, 2-A or Low 1-C

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Wait how is demon realm Low 2-C if it already has three space-time continuums? It's either 2-A or Low 1-C

It's basically fly or fall situation but people here are not trying to understand one thing... That it isn't just infinite from a normal 4-th dimensional perspective, it is infinite in contrast to an already uncountably infinite structure like space-time continuum as a container of these worlds. But I can't really blame anyone here as the logic behind the tiering system itself is soo vague that it doesn't explain cases like these. If I didn't had the statement for Underworld being infinite in comparison to an already uncountably infinite construct like Human world then I wouldn't think of trying because I know for a fact that how it would come out as but there is a clear situation that we need to acknowledge here.

In short, it's 2A as well as L1C. I just took 2A as a sign of compromise by taking the previous CRT into consideration but if others doesn't think like that even after this then what can I even say at this point?

 

[Hellformer]

So here's what the argument relies on:
We have 3 realms, each being Low 2-C in size. These realms are a subset of the Demon realm which is stated to be infinite in size in comparison to the three.
Therefore the infinite size of the demon realm must be infinitely greater than the 4 fully sized spatio-temporal axes.
Which ends up resulting a 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C cosmology.

Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[REX9097]

Agree: @Planck69 (Agrees with 2A, fine with L1C rating), @DarkDragonMedeus (2B, possibly L1C), @Theglassman12 (Agrees with 2A), @Elizhaa (Agrees with 2A, fine with L1C rating), @Qawsedf234 (Agrees with 2A), @UchihaSlayer96 (Agrees with 2A and a possible rating on L1C)

Disagree:

Neutral: @LordGriffin1000

You should be add Qawsedf on Disagree with Low 1-C

 

[Deagonx]

These realms are a subset of the Demon realm which is stated to be infinite in size in comparison to the three.
Therefore the infinite size of the demon realm must be infinitely greater than the 4 fully sized spatial axes.
Which ends up resulting a 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C cosmology.

Correct me if I'm wrong

You are wrong. This was one of the core arguments from the earlier thread. The Demon World being called infinite does not necessitate that it is infinitely larger than any of its constituent realms or that it is infinite 5-D.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

So here's what the argument relies on:
We have 3 realms, each being Low 2-C in size. These realms are a subset of the Demon realm which is stated to be infinite in size in comparison to the three.
Therefore the infinite size of the demon realm must be infinitely greater than the 4 fully sized spatial axes.
Which ends up resulting a 2-A, Possibly Low 1-C cosmology.

Correct me if I'm wrong

Yeah, that's mostly it. Except not in just comparison, it was also stated to be infinite as a structure (container) on top of it which includes the insignificant 5-D axis we all take into the matter whenever we discuss structures like these.

 

[Deagonx]

Except not in just comparison, it was also stated to be infinite as a structure (container) on top of it which includes the insignificant 5-D axis

That would just make this a rehash of the earlier thread, though. There was near unanimous agreement from staff that being called infinite doesn't necessitate that the "insignificant 5-D axis" is itself infinite.

 

[REX9097]

It's 2 for Low 1-C, 2 for 2-A/B, possibly Low 1-C and 2 for solid 2-A

+
1 neutral

1 disagree for Low 1-C

 

[LordGriffin1000]

That would just make this a rehash of the earlier thread, though. There was near unanimous agreement from staff that being called infinite doesn't necessitate that the "insignificant 5-D axis" is itself infinite.

Sounds a bit odd to me but I recall the knowledgeable members stating this so yeah, this is correct.