Dante's Immeasurable justifications

[Agnaa]

I don't really like that calc the way it's currently set up. Main concerns, biggest to smallest:

• It cuts to a different scene, and has them arriving. That's cinematic timing, not something you can just use our real-world views of time for. (EDIT: On our Cinematic Time page, this feat runs into issues with particularly 8, and partially 3)
• The distance used is "The distance you need to travel so that the Sun is indistinguishable from any other star in the sky" but I don't see the connection there. They seem to be flying from the middle of space to a random planet, and planets can be incredibly dim, even when not too far away, especially if they're rogue planets far from stars. Star comparison just seems bad, the planet end seems better (idk if the brightness issue would wreck that one too, but it at least seems more reasonable).

 

[DMUA]

Yeah as I'm looking it over I only really agree with the FTL end, but they do ultimately land on a planet after they're done with the schmup section and we don't see one in the background as they talk (And when they do land on it, the sky is clearly lit up by the amount of magma on it's surface so it would be somewhat visible)

I also dunno about it being a different scene, there's no loading screen or the likes to indicate it's another section, it's just immediately after they start flying you see clouds and them popping up through it.

 

[Agnaa]

I also dunno about it being a different scene, there's no loading screen or the likes to indicate it's another section, it's just immediately after they start flying you see clouds and them popping up through it.

I mean it is a cut. They both fly up into the stars, the music fades out, it cuts to some clouds, and a few seconds later we see them arriving. There's clearly a fair amount of off-screen movement there, and our Cinematic Time standards, under points 3 and 8, say that we should take the on-screen movement over that. Which from a quick eyeball, has them moving at around ~250 m/s.

 

[Robo432343]

Fiction calling a character who can teleport "fast" doesn't mean that they're actually physically moving that distance.

It is actually reasonable when you're speaking colloquially to call something like that fast.

If someone gets teleported somewhere they can say "woah that was fast" instead of some nerdspeak like "woah, you transported me here by teleporting me through space in a short amount of time".

"little space-time jumps" and "warps right next to you" are clearly more important indications of what the ability is.

so are you saying the lizard is not using demonic energy as a speed enhancement when it said "uses raw demonic energy to do little space-time jumps"

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree this is just Teleportation rather than Immeasurable speed.

Neutral on the FTL calc though.

 

[Agnaa]

so are you saying the lizard is not using demonic energy as a speed enhancement when it said "uses raw demonic energy to do little space-time jumps"

It's using the demonic energy to teleport, rather than using it to make their muscles move faster.

One may or may not consider this a "speed enhancement", that's just a matter of definitions.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So, what do we change the speed to, if this teleportation ability doesn't cut it?

Infinite because of the Void Mundus feat

Thread where it got accepted as an infinite speed feat:

DMC and Omnipresence revision

Among DMC speed feats, Dante and Void Mundus battle is currently listed at their speed description, but considering what I saw on some threads and how this became a common question regarding the verse, I believe there isn't a solid idea of what happened during their clash and how we see Fighting...

vsbattles.com

Unless you want to tackle that here while we are at it

 

[DMUA]

I mean it is a cut. They both fly up into the stars, the music fades out, it cuts to some clouds, and a few seconds later we see them arriving. There's clearly a fair amount of off-screen movement there, and our Cinematic Time standards, under points 3 and 8, say that we should take the on-screen movement over that.

I'm not sure if this is really something the game does without a level transition or loading screen. Like, take this similar scene that happens after the battle, also featuring Dante flying away (though this time in a plane). After they fade to white from finding an exit to the island, they're not shown any further from our last perspective on them, but rather just shifts to another angle.

There's not a lot to go off to say no, but on a very amusing note if this is wrong we have to deal with a particle beam feat.

 

[Deagonx]

Infinite because of the Void Mundus feat

Thread where it got accepted as an infinite speed feat:

DMC and Omnipresence revision

Among DMC speed feats, Dante and Void Mundus battle is currently listed at their speed description, but considering what I saw on some threads and how this became a common question regarding the verse, I believe there isn't a solid idea of what happened during their clash and how we see Fighting...

vsbattles.com

Unless you want to tackle that here while we are at it

I think it'd be better to handle that separately. For now we just need to get this teleportation thing off the pages.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think it'd be better to handle that separately. For now we just need to get this teleportation thing off the pages.

Fair

 

[Agnaa]

I think we may need to tackle both, since they both relate to speed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Neutral: @LephyrTheRevanchist (possibly disagreeing),

I clarified this

I'm saying I don't think this quote justifies Immeasurable speed in the first place, regardless if the translation is legit.

I never voted on OP

Incidentally, to keep it completely straightforward: I agree with removing immeasurable based on the fact it wasn't accepted in the first place

 

[Agnaa]

And ye, infinite seems wrong. The relevant points are "Mundus is a void of unending darkness itself" (that's not in the scans), "Dante dodged these attacks that must have been coming from all directions" (the scan itself says he ran through the empty space to dodge it), and "Alternate Mundus is outside of the Flow of Time" (too vague for this sort of speed rating, and in the text itself is something that was supposed to be true but is being challenged).

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think we may need to tackle both, since they both relate to speed.

Yeah, the OP’s title and proposal was to remove the immeasurable rating and replaced with a justified valid speed rating. Edit: Well, it is more of an implication here.

And that’s it. Quick and short CRT; I don’t care if there’s any other justifications or whatever. If there are, use them—simple as that. If there aren’t, then immeasurable speed should get nuked

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, I don't mind tackling both, it's just that it'll likely turn into a debacle. But I can make the case pretty easily. Dante's profile suggests that he has Immeasurable speed from dodging attacks from an Omnipresent Mundus:

Immeasurable (Easily evaded attacks from an alternate version of Mundus in his own domain, in which he was omnipresent and made of endlessly spreading darkness, reaching into gaps and spaces beyond Mundus' reach.

Crucially, however, the description of the attacks and the dodging make it pretty clear that nothing special was happening:

[Mundus's] countless arms swung down swords, rained down arrows of demonic power, and fired bolts of lightning, all in an attempt to bury the insolent challenger" Dante's footwork was light and he ran through the empty space, avoiding most of the attacks.

The attacks are not "omnipresent." More importantly, the scan that supposedly establishes Mundus as being omnipresent does not say anything like that. It describes Mundus as being very large and imposing, but specifies that Mundus and Dante are in a location together:

This is a not a place that would allow her to exist. No, it is not a place where any person is allowed to enter. Only the demon king himself, and those comparable to him, can just barely stay.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And ye, infinite seems wrong. The relevant points are "Mundus is a void of unending darkness itself" (that's not in the scans),

Translation: It was terribly dark for a human, accompanied by echoes that evokes despair to those who hear it. It was no longer a laughter of this world. Beryl heard it. A high-pitched, echoing laughter. So dark it couldn't possibly be human, the mere sound just by hearing it would make one cannot help but feel despair. Up and down, or even left and right are uncertain in this space, she is standing alone. There is no sign of Dante nearby. It can't be. Right now he is, beyond Beryl's gaze---in the palace of the endlessly spreading darkness, where a fierce battle is unfolding. His opponent, is the Demon King himself? It's so large that it surpasses all the demons she has ever dealt with or have seen, a body structure that gives the impression of immeasurable power. It is so strong that she felt like falling down just by looking at it, an intimidating feeling she had no way of resisting. It's appearance, she cannot capture it as an image. Only the coagulate darkness

From the OP. If the translation is wrong is another matter tho

"Dante dodged these attacks that must have been coming from all directions" (the scan itself says he ran through the empty space to dodge it)

I originally accepted the feat because to even find those empty spaces, Dante would've been outpacing the attacks. When combined with the unending darkness statement and the attacks coming from everywhere in the void, seems straightforward infinite to me

 

[Ningenron]

I never voted on OP

My bad for getting wrong.

Yeah, the OP’s title and proposal was to remove the immeasurable rating and replaced with a justified valid speed rating

That’s indeed the case, but if neither the immeasurable nor infinite justifications are even remotely valid, I don’t really mind tackling them as well

 

[Agnaa]

From the OP. If the translation is wrong is another matter tho

I don't understand why you're bolding "in the palace of the endlessly spreading darkness, where a fierce battle is unfolding". How is that omnipresent?

I originally accepted the feat because to even find those empty spaces, Dante would've been outpacing the attacks.

You can't outpace something that is everywhere by moving in 0 seconds.

When combined with the unending darkness statement and the attacks coming from everywhere in the void, seems straightforward infinite to me

Where's the statement that they come from everywhere in the void? I can't find that mentioned in the original thread, or in the scans linked there.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't understand why you're bolding "in the palace of the endlessly spreading darkness, where a fierce battle is unfolding". How is that omnipresent?

You said that the statement of Mundus being a void of unending darkness was wrong. I'm specifically answering the part about the unending darkness.

 

[Agnaa]

You said that the statement of Mundus being a void of unending darkness was wrong. I'm specifically answering the part about the unending darkness.

Yeah, those words don't mean that.

Unless you're interpreting "He is in the palace of the endlessly spreading darkness" as meaning "There is a palace, owned by an entity called The Endlessly Spreading Darkness, and he is in there", and then also adding something like "Mundus was called the owner of that palace somewhere, so he is The Endlessly Spreading Darkness". Even then I can't see how you'd get that he is literally an endlessly spreading darkness in some particular space.

It's just a really confusing reading of the work that you're giving me here. Are those extra links which are needed actually substantiated anywhere?

To me, the clear meaning of that phrase is that it's a flowery (by means of calling it a palace) way of describing an empty space that they're fighting in.

EDIT: Having a look at the Japanese, that does seem more likely. It's a fight taking place in a palace of eternally-expanding darkness (果てしなく広がる闇の宮殿). I see no connection to a person provided there.

Note that I use "eternal", that is the word used and I find that interesting.

 

[Robo432343]

why are we denying Mundus is the void i thought this was pretty clear

"Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack." 144

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, those words don't mean that.

Unless you're interpreting "He is in the palace of the endlessly spreading darkness" as meaning "There is a palace, owned by an entity called The Endlessly Spreading Darkness, and he is in there", and then also adding something like "Mundus was called the owner of that palace somewhere, so he is The Endlessly Spreading Darkness". Even then I can't see how you'd get that he is literally an endlessly spreading darkness in some particular space.

The interpretation that Mundus is the darkness comes from here

The great sword rebellion growled, slashing through the darkness, penetrating the body of the Demon King who stands in his way.

Seems to imply the darkness its his body.

Without that, I also can't find where the interpretation that he's omnipresent is coming from.

Edit: Seems Robo ninja'd me

 

[Agnaa]

why are we denying Mundus is the void i thought this was pretty clear

"Rebellion roared through the darkness, stabbing at the void. It had taken Dante a moment to realize that the void wasn't empty. The void was the king himself. Somehow he knew how to fight it, slashing at the darkness and instinctively avoiding attack." 144

Posting a different translation, rather than the raws. Curious.

The raws that were provided, seem to cut out at the start of that paragraph.

大剣リベリオンが唸り、闇を斬り裂き、立ちはだかる魔王の体を貫く。

"The great sword rebellion growled, slashing through the darkness, penetrating the body of the demon king standing in his way."

Given the differences even from that part, I kinda don't trust the translation you're giving.

And @Lephyr, I don't think it implies that the darkness is his body. They're both fighting in the darkness, so it makes sense for a character to cut through it on the way to penetrating his body.

 

[Palito266]

I would like to defend the arguement for the Furies in DMC 5 since I think they're a good example of Immeasurable speed.
Let's see the feat first, with no further context: The Fury is seen teleporting all around Dante as seen by the blur. Then, it appears behind Dante and tries to attack him, but fails.


With Travelling/Fury itself
It's said in his enemy file that the fury wants to go faster and kill faster, hence, after self-induced evolution, it gains the power to use demonic power for little space-time jumps to move right next to you. We can see this reflected in gameplay by seeing them charging a pounce, or they're seen exiting their Dash with a difference stance from the one they entered, going toward the player .
It's also worth mentioning that Fury doesn't do lineal movements like a teleport should do. Teleportation is instant movement from point A to point B and just that, it's a straight way from A to B with absolutely no divergence. However, in Fury's case, in his teleportation we can see that he actually does diverge a little, in fact, he goes in circular motion in regards to Dante, and then goes behind him. This dash doesn't really seem to behave like teleportation, because if it was, it would've just went straight for Dante's back in a linear line instead of waltzing around to confuse him. It's also cool to note how the Fury was already preparing his claw after "teleporting", which wouldn't be possible if he were to be teleporting because he wouldn't be able to react to it (Would you really expect something like a "Dash" or "Speed" really end up as teleportation?)
By the way, Demonic Power has been explained to strengthen your body too, so Furies using demonic power to strengthen their speed is in no way rare, since there's plenty of examples of that in DMC.

With Reacting/Dante
This is way more simpler than the last one. At the start of the cutscene, you can actually see Dante looking around him like he knew Fury was dashing around. Then, funnily enough, Dante looks to his left from where Fury comes from and then to his right, where Fury ends up being. Finally, he quickly reacts to Fury without even having to see him, almost as if he knew already he was going to his back.

In short, you'd have to assume that the Fury has, at least, some sort of control on his teleport and knows where his pray is even when he's dashing around. This obviously would be immeasurable reaction since he can see and react to stuff even when he's travelling in space and time. If you assume that Dante just felt Fury behind him and saw the water sound, you'd also have to take into account the whole detail of him looking to the left and right as Fury passes by, which is a dead giveaway of him following and keeping up with Fury. Even if you believe Fury teleports or doesn't scale from his dash, I think the reaction from Dante is very blatant.

 

[Agnaa]

I would like to defend the arguement for the Furies in DMC 5 since I think they're a good example of Immeasurable speed.
Let's see the feat first, with no further context: The Fury is seen teleporting all around Dante as seen by the blur. Then, it appears behind Dante and tries to attack him, but fails.


With Travelling/Fury itself
It's said in his enemy file that the fury wants to go faster and kill faster, hence, after self-induced evolution, it gains the power to use demonic power for little space-time jumps to move right next to you.

Addressed here.

We can see this reflected in gameplay by seeing them charging a pounce, or they're seen exiting their Dash with a difference stance from the one they entered, going toward the player.
It's also worth mentioning that Fury doesn't do lineal movements like a teleport should do. Teleportation is instant movement from point A to point B and just that, it's a straight way from A to B with absolutely no divergence. However, in Fury's case, in his teleportation we can see that he actually does diverge a little, in fact, he goes in circular motion in regards to Dante, and then goes behind him. This dash doesn't really seem to behave like teleportation, because if it was, it would've just went straight for Dante's back in a linear line instead of waltzing around to confuse him. It's also cool to note how the Fury was already preparing his claw after "teleporting", which wouldn't be possible if he were to be teleporting because he wouldn't be able to react to it (Would you really expect something like a "Dash" or "Speed" really end up as teleportation?)

ig it is a bit weird as far as teleportation goes. They leave mists behind, and there's sometimes a delay between when they disappear/appear, and at other times a faded visual of them remains when they disappear, while they're still reappearing somewhere else. But I still think the greater preponderance of evidence goes against you.

If your teleportation does leave marks like that, it makes sense to repeatedly teleport around someone before actually going in for the attack, since you'd still need to wind up for it after teleporting, you may as well try to fake them out.

And I think more important than them changing stances between dashing and reappearing, is how after these dashes they wind up for attacks, how you can see them recoiling, regaining their senses, and then dashing away. I don't think this makes sense if they're meant to always be Immeasurable, or if they're meant to occasionally be Immeasurable when moving around like that, especially if you're arguing that Dante reacts to those Immeasurable parts (since that brings up the question of why Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them while they're not using it).

In short, you'd have to assume that the Fury has, at least, some sort of control on his teleport and knows where his pray is even when he's dashing around.

No, I do think the evidence provided still makes sense for them briefly seeing the world between dashes, and being able to adjust things based on that.

If you assume that Dante just felt Fury behind him and saw the water sound, you'd also have to take into account the whole detail of him looking to the left and right as Fury passes by, which is a dead giveaway of him following and keeping up with Fury.

He doesn't do that as Fury passes by, he does it a bit after. Plus, Fury leaves a trail and makes a noise with that dashing. And, ofc, the final reaction by Dante can be done as Fury stopped dashing and had to perform an attack, as you can tell by the distinctly different visuals and accompanying sound effect.

 

[Palito266]

Oh yeah forgot to mention but the official guide also mentions that the Furies attack at an "unseen speed" (obviously referencing their little dashes). Due to me not knowing japanese, I used DeepL so the translation is lackluster, feel free to correct it

 

[Deagonx]

The raws that were provided, seem to cut out at the start of that paragraph.

This should be the page those raws end on + the one immediately after it:

 

[Agnaa]

Oh yeah forgot to mention but the official guide also mentions that the Furies attack at an "unseen speed" (obviously referencing their little dashes). Due to me not knowing japanese, I used DeepL so the translation is lackluster, feel free to correct it

Yeah something like that. "Too fast to [observe/see (with the naked eye)]".

 

[Robo432343]

Yeah the description does not imply that the creature’s movement is instant and untraceable like teleportation; it suggests that the demonic energy enhances the lizard's raw speed to such a level that it can manipulate space-time to move faster in a unique way.

​

 

[Palito266]

ig it is a bit weird as far as teleportation goes. They leave mists behind, and there's sometimes a delay between when they disappear/appear, and at other times a faded visual of them remains when they disappear, while they're still reappearing somewhere else. But I still think the greater preponderance of evidence goes against you.

If your teleportation does leave marks like that, it makes sense to repeatedly teleport around someone before actually going in for the attack, since you'd still need to wind up for it after teleporting, you may as well try to fake them out.

I'd say the mists and water sounds are more for the player to "see" the guy actually running amok and seeing how fast he is, because if it was realistic, we wouldn't see it at all lol. Game Limitations basically.

And I think more important than them changing stances between dashing and reappearing, is how after these dashes they wind up for attacks, how you can see them recoiling, regaining their senses, and then dashing away. I don't think this makes sense if they're meant to always be Immeasurable, or if they're meant to occasionally be Immeasurable when moving around like that, especially if you're arguing that Dante reacts to those Immeasurable parts (since that brings up the question of why Dante doesn't utterly shitblitz them while they're not using it).

For the first part I don't know what you meant. As for Dante, we'd need to check out the other cutscenes where Furies appear to figure that one out, which I don't recall tbh.

He doesn't do that as Fury passes by, he does it a bit after. Plus, Fury leaves a trail and makes a noise with that dashing. And, ofc, the final reaction by Dante can be done as Fury stopped dashing and had to perform an attack, as you can tell by the distinctly different visuals and accompanying sound effect.

It still means he was at least casually keeping up with it in the dash. I've already responded to the trail and water thing so no need to do that again.

 

[Agnaa]

I'd say the mists and water sounds are more for the player to "see" the guy actually running amok and seeing how fast he is, because if it was realistic, we wouldn't see it at all lol. Game Limitations basically.

We see it in cutscenes, so I wouldn't dismiss it that easily.

For the first part I don't know what you meant.

They don't always have the dashing visuals, even when they're moving. You see them dash, stop, and then start swinging an attack. Or when they get hit, you seem them flailing around for a little while, before they dash away. Showing that they're not moving like this 24/7.

It still means he was at least casually keeping up with it in the dash.

No, he doesn't look around until like a second later lmao.

I've already responded to the trail and water thing so no need to do that again.

Your response to it was "he reacted to the first dash", when he didn't. The dash occurred, and then he looked around quizzically.

Yeah the description does not imply that the creature’s movement is instant and untraceable like teleportation; it suggests that the demonic energy enhances the lizard's raw speed to such a level that it can manipulate space-time to move faster in a unique way.

Not "in a unique way", it explicitly says "uses raw demonic power to do little space-time jumps. It'll warp right next to you".

 

[Palito266]

We see it in cutscenes, so I wouldn't dismiss it that easily.

It's mainly for the player to interpret that the Furies are there and to have Dante to a sicko move and give them a good introduction whilst showing off cool particles in the form of the dashing and going out of the dash.
Also, if it's an instant move, why does the water make sounds and the water trembles as he goes by? In a more realistic scenario, there wouldn't even be water trembling or any sound at all because it's instant, but nevertheless it does, it's very clearly there so the player can see what the hell is happening.

No, he doesn't look around until like a second later lmao.

Quite the contrary. At the 5 second mark, he looks at his left, like he was seeing Fury off-screen . At the 6-7 second mark, Fury appears from the left.

 

[Deagonx]

Quite the contrary. At the 5 second mark, he looks at his left, like he was seeing Fury off-screen

It looks a lot more like he's just glancing around, like this:

 

[MasqueTLDF]

agree, pretty self evident

 

[Ningenron]

Not interested in entertaining that fury debate so I'm just leaving this here;

The speed, which is hard to even visually track, seems to be a result not only of physical strength but also of magic-like spatial interference.

 

[Agnaa]

It's mainly for the player to interpret that the Furies are there and to have Dante to a sicko move and give them a good introduction whilst showing off cool particles in the form of the dashing and going out of the dash.
Also, if it's an instant move, why does the water make sounds and the water trembles as he goes by? In a more realistic scenario, there wouldn't even be water trembling or any sound at all because it's instant, but nevertheless it does, it's very clearly there so the player can see what the hell is happening.

Fair enough, it is pretty Weird no matter how you slice it.

Quite the contrary. At the 5 second mark, he looks at his left, like he was seeing Fury off-screen . At the 6-7 second mark, Fury appears from the left.

I agree with Deagon on this. And hell, if you're arguing that he reacts before Fury appears, the only explanation could be precog or smth.

A n y w a y.

Looking at the full scans Deagon posted above.

大剣リベリオンが唸り、闇を斬り裂き、立ちはだかる魔王の体を貫く。

決してダメージを受けるとは思えない闇の体が、その痛みに震え、唸る。

The great sword rebellion growled, slashing through the darkness, penetrating the body of the demon king standing in his way.

That body of darkness, which seemed like it would never take damage, is trembling and groaning from the pain.

It's definitely not as explicit as "The void was the king himself", but ig an argument can be made.

I still think it's too weak to give a rating, given the other context. What do you two think? @LephyrTheRevanchist @Robo432343

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Looking at the full scans Deagon posted above.


It's definitely not as explicit as "The void was the king himself", but ig an argument can be made.

I still think it's too weak to give a rating, given the other context. What do you two think? @LephyrTheRevanchist @Robo432343

I definitely would prefer something more direct, given this is for infinite speed after all. Maybe a possibly/likely rating?

 

[Deagonx]

I am fairly resistant to the idea that the phrase "that body of darkness" is sufficient to regard Mundus as being the void itself, given the litany of other descriptions during this fight scene that suggests the opposite, in addition to the inherently unintuitive nature of that idea

 

[Robo432343]

Fair enough, it is pretty Weird no matter how you slice it.

so do you still think its teleportation

It's definitely not as explicit as "The void was the king himself", but ig an argument can be made.

I still think it's too weak to give a rating, given the other context. What do you two think? @LephyrTheRevanchist @Robo432343

Mundus' profile is already accepted to be the void so we have to remove that if this goes through

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Not interested in entertaining that fury debate so I'm just leaving this here;

Yeah, the Fury debate is not even an immeasurable speed feat anyway. At best, it get ya a MFTL+ to likely infinite speed plus reacting to the teleportation anyway