Dante's Immeasurable justifications

[Robo432343]

Yeah, the Fury debate is not even an immeasurable speed feat anyway. At best, it get ya a MFTL+ to likely infinite speed plus reacting to the teleportation anyway

performing space time jumps via speed is infinite?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

performing space time jumps via speed is infinite?

I say likely infinite speed, but then again, that is a stretch since you are moving from one location to another without any physical obstacles to get in the way of that plus ignoring the distance.

 

[Agnaa]

so do you still think its teleportation

I think it's a magical movement ability that's different from their typical combat speed, and which can't itself be reacted to by other characters. I also don't think it operates at Immeasurable speeds.

Mundus' profile is already accepted to be the void so we have to remove that if this goes through

oke

performing space time jumps via speed is infinite?

Just saying the word "space-time" doesn't make something Immeasurable.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Yeah, the Fury debate is not even an immeasurable speed feat anyway. At best, it get ya a MFTL+ to likely infinite speed plus reacting to the teleportation anyway

There is a slight issue there. The English translation for DMC5 specifically is different then Japanese interpretation. Why am I saying this? Because the official English website of Devil May Cry has Void as infinite space to train at whereas the Japanese translation had outright different text for the Void altogether where there no mention infinite miles away and instead, just focuses only on gameplay. I feel It's safe to assume the situation is here too like that, especially knowing the wordings are quite different in either translations.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think it's a magical movement ability that's different from their typical combat speed, and which can't itself be reacted to by other characters. I also don't think it operates at Immeasurable speeds.

oke

Just saying the word "space-time" doesn't make something Immeasurable.

Reminds me of Flash step from Bleach and that other speed technique in Naruto that is similar in application of speed (I know it is whataboutism, but that is what its reminding me of as they are similar in terms of function at least for a speed technique)

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I think it's a magical movement ability that's different from their typical combat speed, and which can't itself be reacted to by other characters. I also don't think it operates at Immeasurable speeds.

But it messes with space and time altogether though.

Just saying the word "space-time" doesn't make something Immeasurable.

Wait soo blitzing through space and time doesn't mean immeasurable here?

 

[Agnaa]

But it messes with space and time altogether though.

A wormhole messes with space and time, speeds obtained through utilizing them can still be finite.

Wait soo blitzing through space and time doesn't mean immeasurable here?

Word salad like that wouldn't give a speed rating, no.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

While the 瞬間移動 is teleportation, the issue is this line: 時間や距離をも超越した. Which is specifically time and distance being transcended so im pretty sure teleportation doesn't include time as well being transcended. There is also a fact that Goku's Instant Transmission uses the specific kanji which also translates to instantaneous movement. I did put it as that because teleportation is just distance but argosax specifically transcends both time and distance to attack.

 

[Robo432343]

according to this scan it is movement

 

[Vietthai96]

While the 瞬間移動 is teleportation, the issue is this line: 時間や距離をも超越した. Which is specifically time and distance being transcended so im pretty sure teleportation doesn't include time as well being transcended. There is also a fact that Goku's Instant Transmission uses the specific kanji which also translates to instantaneous movement. I did put it as that because teleportation is just distance but argosax specifically transcends both time and distance to attack.

To be fair here, in Japanese contexts, generally, teleportation is regarded by Japan as movement but is instantaneous, thus we have thing like Goku's Shunkan Idō is Instantaneous Movement. So like most thing, evaluate this solely on the kanji mean nothing, it heavily depend on the large context to see if this is teleportation ability/hax or the character can move at teleportation/instantaneous speed level

 

[Agnaa]

To be fair here, in Japanese contexts, generally, teleportation is regarded by Japan as movement but is instantaneous, thus we have thing like Goku's Shunkan Idō is Instantaneous Movement. So like most thing, evaluate this solely on the kanji mean nothing, it heavily depend on the large context to see if this is teleportation ability/hax or the character can move at teleportation/instantaneous speed level

That doesn't tackle the important point Redgrave brought up.

the issue is this line: 時間や距離をも超越した. Which is specifically time and distance being transcended so im pretty sure teleportation doesn't include time as well being transcended.

 

[Robo432343]

if its movement that transcends time and distance that means the speed formula wouldn't apply

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the downgrade. infinite speed doesn't look any better either.

 

[Vietthai96]

That doesn't tackle the important point Redgrave brought up.

I just mean in general when we talking about the Kanji for Shunkan Idō as a whole though.

i forgot about the point Redgrave brought up, but yeah, teleportation hardly go with transcending, since transcending most of the time mean go beyond something, which implies movement/travelling, other meaning is superiority which........eh.............. open up a completely different can of worm

 

[Ningenron]

While the 瞬間移動 is teleportation, the issue is this line: 時間や距離をも超越した. Which is specifically time and distance being transcended so im pretty sure teleportation doesn't include time as well being transcended.

Like I said already, that’s only an issue if you take 'transcending' to its utmost meaning instead of just interpreting it as 'passing over' or 'getting over.' After all, moving instantly from point to point is essentially the same as 'transcending' space time—it’s just generic purple prose. Not to mention, such statements are a pretty common description for teleportation abilities. For example, Minato’s Flying Thunder God technique is also described as transcending space time.

 

[Agnaa]

I just mean in general when we talking about the Kanji for Shunkan Idō as a whole though.

i forgot about the point Redgrave brought up, but yeah, teleportation hardly go with transcending, since transcending most of the time mean go beyond something, which implies movement/travelling, other meaning is superiority which........eh.............. open up a completely different can of worm

Like I said already, that’s only an issue if you take 'transcending' to its utmost meaning instead of just interpreting it as 'passing over' or 'getting over.' After all, moving instantly from point to point is essentially the same as 'transcending' space time—it’s just generic purple prose. Not to mention, such statements are a pretty common description for teleportation abilities. For example, Minato’s Flying Thunder God technique is also described as transcending space time.

I'd first like to point out that there's multiple Japanese terms which translators localise as "transcend". For some of these (i.e. 超える), I'd make the same arguments you are. But the term in question here (超越) is one that is used for "rising above", is used in philosophy, and the like.

So Ningenron, are you certain that other verses which describe teleportation in the same way use that same word in Japanese? If so, then I might just have to take it as a cultural difference in how that sort of thing is communicated.

If such a thing can't be verified, then I'd just have to land at a confused neutral. It's hard to dismiss an ability being said to "transcend time and distance", but also, the presentation in cutscenes and games shows a complete lack of this being used to travel into the past/future, and textual descriptions don't actually mention it being able to be applied in that way. Nor are we told that Dante goes into the past/future to dodge them.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

if its movement that transcends time and distance that means the speed formula wouldn't apply

It shouldn't even apply to beings that are not bounded by time at all yet here we are

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I also like to point out that this scan here is specifically characterizing Argosax through his quick movements, not some teleportation.

Infinite speed is just a form of teleportation all things considered let alone immeasurable speed soo it really just depends on the context here. In my opinion, it should be given a possible rating, especially after the point Redgrave brought.

 

[Agnaa]

I also like to point out that this scan here is specifically characterizing Argosax through his quick movements, not some teleportation.

I disagree with that reading. It then goes on to talk about him disappearing, I think those are the characteristic "swift movements" being talked about..

At most, you can say you interpret it that way; there's no hard fact of the text requiring that reading.

 

[Ningenron]

Anyway, since the thread got this far, I’m gonna summarize it;

• Immeasurable (Much faster than his younger self, kept up with Nelo Angelo. Was considered as a threat by Mundus, who should at least be as fast as Argosax, and Argosax's speed is instant movement that transcends time and distance),

1. The thread already pointed out the misleading translation.
2. The said proposal isn’t even actually accepted whatsoever

• Immeasurable (Easily evaded attacks from an alternate version of Mundus in his own domain, in which he was omnipresent and made of endlessly spreading darkness, reaching into gaps and spaces beyond Mundus' reach. Matched and eventually surpassed Chen's speed, blitzed Argosax in their fight),

1. Mundus being an omnipresent entity made of endlessly spreading darkness isn’t clear cut and needs better evidence
2. The scans barely support the claims (really? Reacting to all of Mundus' attacks simultaneously and instantly when Mundus is just throwing too many—sword swings, lightning bolts, energy arrows— attacks and Dante countering them?)
3. Matching an omnipresent thingy or whatever isn’t a speed feat and is too vague to be taken as one; even if you take it at face value, he's just reacting to the physical manifestations within the omnipresence area, logically. Not to mention, I don’t think we count this kind of stuff as a speed feat at all, lol
4. Overall a bunch of non squiters smashed together

• The fury shenanigans

1. It's not because of speed, it's straight up teleportation as well due to spatial interference shenanigan.
2. Dante never reacted to that teleportation.

My proposal is still the same; if there’s any other justifications or whatever, use them. If there aren’t, then immeasurable (infinite as well) speed should get nuked.

I'd first like to point out that there's multiple Japanese terms which translators localise as "transcend". For some of these (i.e. 超える), I'd make the same arguments you are. But the term in question here (超越) is one that is used for "rising above", is used in philosophy, and the like.

I know that; I'm a former translation helper for Japanese after all.

So Ningenron, are you certain that other verses which describe teleportation in the same way use that same word in Japanese? If so, then I might just have to take it as a cultural difference in how that sort of thing is communicated.

I can't think of many examples right now, but for the one I mentioned, yeah, it straight up uses 超越 for flying thunder God, his infamous space time teleportation jutsu.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I disagree with that reading. It then goes on to talk about him disappearing, I think those are the characteristic "swift movements" being talked about..

At most, you can say you interpret it that way; there's no hard fact of the text requiring that reading.

Sir Agnaa, can I ask you something here if you don't mind? What can you say about the case where characters in general wanders beyond time and space while being inside one? What case you think it would qualify as there assuming there is one tbw?

 

[Robo432343]

 

[Robo432343]

Like I said already, that’s only an issue if you take 'transcending' to its utmost meaning instead of just interpreting it as 'passing over' or 'getting over.' After all, moving instantly from point to point is essentially the same as 'transcending' space time—it’s just generic purple prose. Not to mention, such statements are a pretty common description for teleportation abilities. For example, Minato’s Flying Thunder God technique is also described as transcending space time.

Using Minato's Flying Thunder God Technique as an example to Argosax is terrible because those two are not the same at all

 

[Agnaa]

I can't think of many examples right now, but for the one I mentioned, yeah, it straight up uses 超越 for flying thunder God, his infamous space time teleportation jutsu.

Fair enough, I'll keep that in mind.

Given that, and the lack of DMC showing concrete feats of such characters going to the past/future through those abilities, I disagree with Immeasurable. And for reasons I provided previously, I disagree with Infinite.

Sir Agnaa, can I ask you something here if you don't mind? What can you say about the case where characters in general wanders beyond time and space while being inside one? What case you think it would qualify as there assuming there is one tbw?

I don't understand what you're saying.

 

[Drite77]

I never really liked anything above MFTL+ to them, otherwise DMC 5 wouldn't have the time and dates, it would all be over in an instant, hell, in that game we know Dante and Vergil fought for 20 minutes, how would that make sense if they were Infinite/Immesurable?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I never really liked anything above MFTL+ to them, otherwise DMC 5 wouldn't have the time and dates, it would all be over in an instant, hell, in that game we know Dante and Vergil fought for 20 minutes, how would that make sense if they were Infinite/Immesurable?

Simple answer, limitations. There is a theme in DMC where Demon God tier beings can't go out fully within Human World otherwise they would destroy Human World just by existing.

And on the other side, it is just another case of game limitations, don't think about it much, it is just game being a game.

 

[Agnaa]

Simple answer, limitations. There is a theme in DMC where Demon God tier beings can't go out fully within Human World otherwise they would destroy Human World just by existing.

Is that taken into account in their matches? They should probably get a Varies rating like many Comic superheroes do if they're consistently holding back to that extent.

And on the other side, it is just another case of game limitations, don't think about it much, it is just game being a game.

Drite's comment made it sound like stated timeframes and dates, where that wouldn't apply. But if it is just an on-screen timer, fair enough.

 

[Drite77]

Is that taken into account in their matches? They should probably get a Varies rating like many Comic superheroes do if they're consistently holding back to that extent.

Drite's comment made it sound like stated timeframes and dates, where that wouldn't apply. But if it is just an on-screen timer, fair enough.

I mean like, before the start of every mission, DMC 5 has a date (Like, October 11) and a time (Like, 7:35). Mission 19 starts with Dante and Vergil fight, Mission 20 starts with Nero and Vergil fighting, and both are given a time

 

[Drite77]

Simple answer, limitations. There is a theme in DMC where Demon God tier beings can't go out fully within Human World otherwise they would destroy Human World just by existing.

And on the other side, it is just another case of game limitations, don't think about it much, it is just game being a game.

When was the first ever mentioned? And on the other side, no '-'. We see in DMC 3 that they can fight in extreme speeds without a problem, someone in the Dev team knows they are extremely fast already

 

[Agnaa]

I mean like, before the start of every mission, DMC 5 has a date (Like, October 11) and a time (Like, 7:35). Mission 19 starts with Dante and Vergil fight, Mission 20 starts with Nero and Vergil fighting, and both are given a time

Okay then yeah. It's really really easy for verses which are meant to involve characters that are beyond time to simply list the times/dates as ???? to signify that.

 

[Robo432343]

i think drite is trying to say verses having some sort of timer or clock thingy would be a contradiction for immeasurable

 

[SuperSonicTL]

When was the first ever mentioned? And on the other side, no '-'. We see in DMC 3 that they can fight in extreme speeds without a problem, someone in the Dev team knows they are extremely fast already

On two occasions, first with Sparda who's power was growing too strong for Human World (hence why he sealed his powers away in Demon tbw) and secondly with Mundus here (stated blatantly)

Those are irrelevant cases as explained in the prior part. Then there is this contradiction where that was before Dante awakened his true power and the fact that he should be ridiculously faster by the time DMC5 came but we haven't shown it like that ever again. Basically just gameplay gimmicks, don't think much over it.

 

[Agnaa]

The Mundus link says he's not able to, and "Not able to" =/= "Chooses not to, to prevent the destruction of the human world". The former would get indexed as a different key, or a different rating for the key, when within that certain area, as with Makoto Muraki.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

The Mundus link says he's not able to, and "Not able to" =/= "Chooses not to, to prevent the destruction of the human world". The former would get indexed as a different key, or a different rating for the key, when within that certain area, as with Makoto Muraki.

Well there is this scan too which says the same thing but this time to Dante himself when they went back to Human World. It is just a weird thing where God tiers can't really show off their power for reasons, one it could be due to preserving Human World or due to the veil that limits the entrance into the human world hence why Demons just doesn't get into Human World but send their essence which menifests itself through wooden structures and soo.

The reason isn't explained clearly but one thing is for sure which is that they just doesn't get at their peak performance when they are within Human World.

 

[Vietthai96]

Date and time is irrelevant, characters don't always talking, chatting, sightseeing, sleeping at immeasurable speed, using daily action that have time and date attracted to them have nothing to do with speed, by this logic, everything above SoL make no sense let alone infinite, immeasurable speed. Idk why people still entertaining this kind of arguments, sure, having timeframe attracted to the fight itself is an issue, but this isn't happened in DMC

 

[Agnaa]

Date and time is irrelevant, characters don't always talking, chatting, sightseeing, sleeping at immeasurable speed, using daily action that have time and date attracted to them have nothing to do with speed, by this logic, everything above SoL make no sense let alone infinite, immeasurable speed. Idk why people still entertaining this kind of arguments, sure, having timeframe attracted to the fight itself is an issue, but this isn't happened in DMC

I mean like, before the start of every mission, DMC 5 has a date (Like, October 11) and a time (Like, 7:35). Mission 19 starts with Dante and Vergil fight, Mission 20 starts with Nero and Vergil fighting, and both are given a time

What else happened in-between?

 

[Vietthai96]

What else happened in-between?

Let me re-check this, i deleted DMC5 on my PC cause the lack of storage, need to go through all the cutscenes again, it is true that there are time and date attracted to the start of each mission iirc, but there not always battle in a mission, they yapping, resting, phone calling and solving puzzles half the time. Danten even sleeping through most missions or trolling the bosses

 

[Drite77]

What else happened in-between?

Nero, Trish, Nico and Lady were leaving the Qliphoth tree, Nero jumps out of the van and he calls his girlfriend Kyrie for some heart to heart conversation

 

[Vietthai96]

What else happened in-between?

Here is it, there did a timer at the start of mission 19 where Dante at the top of the Demon Tree and yapping with Vergil for a while before they start fighting, the day is irrelevant cause both mission is 15th of June, what matter is the hour, mission 19 start at 04:04 PM. Later after finishing the battle or the first rough they start yapping about the past and do staring contest before again jumping in for rough two. Scene changed into mission 20 (time stamp is 07:12) focused on Nero, there is another timer, 04:27 PM, Nero phone called his girlfriend, get some emotional advise from her, then yapping about couldn't save this and that, etc... and then starting to powering up to fly to the top of the tree, where Dante and Vergil fighting to stop them.

Now we can see that the timer moved about 20 mins so we can say that Vergil and Dante battle took 20 mins, but there are two things

1. Dante and Vergil both yapping at the start and at the end of their battle

2. In the cinematic cutscene, when Nero start powering up, the scene where Vergil and Dante start charged at each other is also show in parallel. Indicated that when Nero did his phone call, Vergil and Dante also charging at each for the second round, and Nero catched them

So kinda, to be fair, the feat itself is kinda ambiguous and up in the air, but if i'm being honest, it do have some ground against Immeasurable speed, depend on how you view it. This is assumed that we do not reject Agrosax statement and currently treating major characters involved have immeasurable speed, for the sake of discussion. If Agrosax statement is rejected then all this cinematic cutscene is irrelevant

On a side note, Nero is completely irrelevant (dead weight) in this discussion, cause he only get Immeasurable speed after awakening his demonic power, timer is irrelevant cause he has finite speed before this

There is also Special Edition which have slightly different cutscene for the last battle between Vergil and Dante, but iirc, there is only the same timer for mission 19 which is Dante start yapping at Vergil face before they fight, no more timer after cause Dante and Vergil jumped straight for second rough, Nero is nowhere to be found and only appear after the second rough end

There comment is long so i apologize

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Now that is over. It is time for the cutscenes to account for this at 2:00:00 to 2:00:30 mark. We see Nero having to travel via flight

I shortened it in form of a clip.

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