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2A (Possibly L1C) Devil May Cry - A relevant closer to a CRT

SeijiSetto said:
i'll preface by saying i'm not all that familiar on tier 2, BUT
i don't know if "could contain infinite worlds" is sufficient for 2-A
the tiering system page is pretty explicit about the fact that characters have to actually significantly affect countably infinite separate space-time continuums, would it not only scale to however many are actually contained within the structure?
Click to expand...

What would you suggest, then? The franchise explicitly implies that the Demon World contains multiple realms within it, yet considers them insignificant compared to its overall scope. Additionally, it's described as spatially infinite as a structure, a container, especially in consideration of these same infinite sized worlds in comparison that are as different as light and darkness to one another.

My current suggestion is to label it as 2-A, with a possible rating of Low 1-C as a consideration. I believe this approach is reasonable enough either way. There is no middle ground here aside from these two tiers as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Regarding possibly Low 1-C, even if a structure is infinite x 2-A, wouldn't it still be 2-A? From the FAQ.

Q: Is a structure bigger than a 2-A structure Low 1-C by default?​

No, the default assumption is that this is not the case. "Bigger" could mean having more 2-A structures and, as explained in greater detail previously, having more 2-A structures, or even infinitely many 2-A structures, unless uncountably infinitely many, won't be above a single 2-A structure in size. This is due to these structures actually having the same size as a baseline 2-A structure.
Click to expand...
Or am I understanding something wrong?

With 2-A I can see, although I remember a crt talking about the patterns of structures that contain others, but I don't remember what her conclusion was.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Regarding possibly Low 1-C, even if a structure is infinite x 2-A, wouldn't it still be 2-A? From the FAQ.

Or am I understanding something wrong?

With 2-A I can see, although I remember a crt talking about the patterns of structures that contain others, but I don't remember what her conclusion was.
Click to expand...

The concept of Low 1-C revolves around the idea that the Demon World is fundamentally superior in scope to the worlds below it. For these lower worlds, the Demon World exists beyond their comprehension or relevance, whether those worlds are finite or infinite. This suggests at least an insignificantly 5-dimensional space for the Demon World under typical conditions, as many examples on the wiki support. Additionally, there is a scan that explicitly compares the Human World and Demon World as lower and higher realms, underscoring the qualitative difference between these two worlds. Given that the Demon World is described as infinite, it’s reasonable to argue that this 5D axis achieves full significance, effectively bypassing usual restrictions and allowing it to qualify as a fully realized Low 1-C dimension.
 
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LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I know this topic comes up a lot, but to be completely safe I'd like your opinion on this.
Click to expand...
I can see 2-A (though the evidence is weak). Low 1-C doesn't have enough solid backing in my mind and I think 2-C is overall more solid as a rating.

But for a compromise 2-A is probably fine.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I can see 2-A (though the evidence is weak). Low 1-C doesn't have enough solid backing in my mind and I think 2-C is overall more solid as a rating.

But for a compromise 2-A is probably fine.
Click to expand...

I understand your perspective, but as a middle ground, could we at least consider a "possibly Low 1-C" rating here? The Demon World does seem to have enough evidence to support this idea. It regards the realms within it as insignificant, and there are references to those realms being "lower" in comparison to it. This would suggest the presence of at least an insignificant 5-dimensional axis. Since the Demon World itself is depicted as infinite, this should scale to that 5D axis, rendering it fully significant. This interpretation aligns well with the way the wiki typically treats Low 1-C tiers, in my opinion.
 
SeijiSetto said:
[...] only scale to however many [separate space-time continuums] are actually contained within the structure?
Click to expand...

Not exactly. The concept is similar, but the approach differs—though it ultimately achieves the same outcome.
 
2-A seems fine to me personally.

In regards to the Low 1-C rating, honestly, I have next to zero interest or knowledge when it comes to Tier 1 stuff. So I'm really not that qualified to evaluate it. A possibly rating seems fine to me after reading everything, but again, I am no authority on Tier 1.
 
SuperSonicTL said:
Not exactly. The concept is similar, but the approach differs—though it ultimately achieves the same outcome.
Click to expand...
does it?
as 2-A is written on the tiering system, you have to destroy a countably infinite number of space-time continuums, no?

2-A: Multiverse level+​


Characters or objects that can significantly affect, create and/or destroy a countably infinite number of separate space-time continuums.
Click to expand...

if that isn't present, how do you get to 2-A at all?
 
Hellformer said:
I get 2-A, but what exactly is the reasoning for Low 1-C?
Click to expand...
SuperSonicTL said:
The concept of Low 1-C revolves around the idea that the Demon World is fundamentally superior in scope to the worlds below it. For these lower worlds, the Demon World exists beyond their comprehension or relevance, whether those worlds are finite or infinite. This suggests at least an insignificantly 5-dimensional space for the Demon World under typical conditions, as many examples on the wiki support. Additionally, there is a scan that explicitly compares the Human World and Demon World as lower and higher realms, underscoring the qualitative difference between these two worlds. Given that the Demon World is described as infinite, it’s reasonable to argue that this 5D axis achieves full significance, effectively bypassing usual restrictions and allowing it to qualify as a fully realized Low 1-C dimension.
Click to expand...
 
SeijiSetto said:
does it?
as 2-A is written on the tiering system, you have to destroy a countably infinite number of space-time continuums, no?
if that isn't present, how do you get to 2-A at all?
Click to expand...

Destroying the entire structure suffices, as it acts as the container for these infinite space-time continuums. I’m not making this claim baselessly; it's backed by several instances throughout the wiki where the realms are depicted as infinite in size and they are qualifying for 2A. Therefore, taking down the whole structure inherently entails the destruction of the contained continuums.
 
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SeijiSetto said:
if that isn't present, how do you get to 2-A at all?
Click to expand...
I think that SupersonicTL is arguing that the demon realm is 2-A in size while not having infinite amount of space-time continuum but instead having capacity to fit such.
A better analogy for this would be an infinite sized universe (High 3-A) having 3-A observable universe within it. The entire Universe can contain the expanding observable part till it reaches to infinite in size.
From my perspective, this rating should be fine as the other staffs have agreed.
 
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SuperSonicTL said:
Still, the abrupt end left one key point unaddressed: Demon World, as an infinite realm containing countless worlds, should logically qualify as at least Multiverse+ in scale, wouldn’t you agree? This seems undeniable, given that the entire premise of the last conversation relied on it—something even mod Deagon indirectly acknowledged here. So, the final step is to establish a scaling chain for it.

Therefore, here is a revised version of the blog that removed everything except the part that says it is infinite as a container.
Click to expand...
Nice job boys. Kudos for all the hard work done.

Straight Low1C is what I'd say for being extradimensional space of non-insignificant size. I don't how much changes the standards have gone through since I was away, but if significant size still mean being 1 milimeter wider than 93 Billion Light Years, then Demon World being infinite size should be more than enough.
And If what I said is true, then that means the ******** Tier 2 standards have not been revised by Ultima like he promised.
 
Well, whatever the standards are, it is what it is, also when will grace be over so one of the ratings can be applied ?
 
Not too sold on this working, honestly.

To elaborate: 2-C-through-2-A at the moment, from what I understand, work pretty much as pseudo-5-D tiers. This is to say that being 2-C and up isn't just about affecting the alternate universes themselves, but also about affecting a tiny little 5-D space that we assume exists between them. This is why we say that the difference between levels of Tier 2 is "unquantifiable due to the 5-D gap between universes," and why messing with universes that exist as the fusion of a bunch of universes doesn't breach past Low 2-C.

So, if we say the Demon World contains the Human World, but nevertheless is still just 4-D (Which is extremely plausible, by the by), I don't think this gets past Low 2-C.

But, on the other hand: If we assume it's 5-D, and then apply the logic of "Well, it doesn't contain infinite universes actually, but it could contain infinite universes, so blowing it up is the same as blowing up infinite universes," things get a little odd. Because, obviously, a 5-dimensional space can fit uncountably infinite lower-dimensional objects in itself, not just countably many, which under the aforementioned reasoning would make the Demon World and a hypothetical feat of destroying it Low 1-C, not 2-A, because that's how many universes it could contain.

Yet, if you do this, you also indirectly have to argue that most (In principle, all, due to what I said above) feats on the wiki that are currently rated at 2-C and up are actually Low 1-C, because they all assume the existence of a 5-D space that's getting affected to produce the rating, which can in turn have the exact same logic applied to it.

So, yeah, wack. I'm not the one behind the Tier 2 standards, though. I believe @DontTalkDT is better informed on the nitty gritty of it than I, so, calling him here to say his piece.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
Not too sold on this working, honestly.

To elaborate: 2-C-through-2-A at the moment, from what I understand, work pretty much as pseudo-5-D tiers. This is to say that being 2-C and up isn't just about affecting the alternate universes themselves, but also about affecting a tiny little 5-D space that we assume exists between them. This is why we say that the difference between levels of Tier 2 is "unquantifiable due to the 5-D gap between universes," and why messing with universes that exist as the fusion of a bunch of universes doesn't breach past Low 2-C.

So, if we say the Demon World contains the Human World, but nevertheless is still just 4-D (Which is extremely plausible, by the by), I don't think this gets past Low 2-C.

But, on the other hand: If we assume it's 5-D, and then apply the logic of "Well, it doesn't contain infinite universes actually, but it could contain infinite universes, so blowing it up is the same as blowing up infinite universes," things get a little odd. Because, obviously, a 5-dimensional space can fit uncountably infinite lower-dimensional objects in itself, not just countably many, which under the aforementioned reasoning would make the Demon World and a hypothetical feat of destroying it Low 1-C, not 2-A, because that's how many universes it could contain.

Yet, if you do this, you also indirectly have to argue that most (In principle, all, due to what I said above) feats on the wiki that are currently rated at 2-C and up are actually Low 1-C, because they all assume the existence of a 5-D space that's getting affected to produce the rating, which can in turn have the exact same logic applied to it.

So, yeah, wack. I'm not the one behind the Tier 2 standards, though. I believe @DontTalkDT is better informed on the nitty gritty of it than I, so, calling him here to say his piece.
Click to expand...
Not quite sure that's the same here. The logic used is that the realms within the Demon World are themselves 4-dimensional space-times, and separated from each other, by a 5-dimensional distance. But that the Demon World is infinite relative to these realms and the Human World, and thus that distance would be of significant size.

It can be debated whether that is what's actually happening here, but it is a fair bit more than just "Demon World has 5-D space between its dimensions".
 
Planck69 said:
Not quite sure that's the same here. The logic used is that the realms within the Demon World are themselves 4-dimensional space-times, and separated from each other, by a 5-dimensional distance. But that the Demon World is infinite relative to these realms and the Human World, and thus that distance would be of significant size.

It can be debated whether that is what's actually happening here, but it is a fair bit more than just "Demon World has 5-D space between its dimensions".
Click to expand...
Yeah, the logic remains the same. Either the Demon World is one huge 4-D space and so doesn't get past Low 2-C, or it's 5-D, and the logic used for 2-A to work makes it Low 1-C instead (Alongside a lot of other stuff, I suspect). Really a quirk in how Tier 2 is structured.

Granted I haven't reviewed the merits of the argument for the Demon World being 5-D as of yet. I'll check that later.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah, the logic remains the same. Either the Demon World is one huge 4-D space and so doesn't get past Low 2-C, or it's 5-D, and the logic used for 2-A to work makes it Low 1-C instead (Alongside a lot of other stuff, I suspect). Really a quirk in how Tier 2 is structured.

Granted I haven't reviewed the merits of the argument for the Demon World being 5-D as of yet. I'll check that later.
Click to expand...

I understand the hesitation, but given the context, the reasoning does lean towards a 2-A or potentially Low 1-C rating. Since the Tier 2 revisions were delayed, I thought it might be worthwhile to push for a 2-A label initially, considering how the underlying logic aligns with a higher dimensional structure (and some other verse got the exact same tier for this reason from what I seen soo far).

Historically, we've acknowledged such structures with a 5-D axis (even if previously deemed "insignificant"). However, in this case, the context suggests that the structure containing this 5-D axis is treated as infinite, not as a limited or subjective perspective. From my point of view, this does follow a logical, consistent framework that actually respects the intrinsic nature of the structure rather then just going into narrow interpretations. But yeah, I would like to see how this one goes down as we speak.
 
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SuperSonicTL said:
Hmm… I think we've reached the grace period. Anyway, submitting the thread. Could someone please close this? @Planck69 @Theglassman12
Click to expand...
This shouldn't be applied yet. If what Ultima says is legit, this is either an upgrade or a downgrade. I suggest you wait for DT's comment.
 
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