2A (Possibly L1C) Devil May Cry - A relevant closer to a CRT

[SuperSonicTL]

That would just make this a rehash of the earlier thread, though. There was near unanimous agreement from staff that being called infinite doesn't necessitate that the "insignificant 5-D axis" is itself infinite.

Those same staff can't even answer the reason behind it, mind you. Even Ultima recently admitted he didn't read the blog himself through which that thread was concluded on his words tbw.

There is a difference here as to how we are treating the structure here. It's not just some random infinite like a 4th dimensional structure, it's infinite in "comparison" to it as well as infinite in its entirety as a structure. You need to understand what's the implications here my friend.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

There is a reason why I opened this CRT so we can actually discuss what we are even standing for at this point.

 

[Deagonx]

Those same staff can't even answer the reason behind it, mind you.

We did explain this. It is because the term "infinite" would apply to it regardless. By definition a 2-A structure is an infinite multiverse with an insignificantly sized 5-D axis. If your premise were correct, any time that an otherwise 2-A structure is called "infinite" it would become Low 1-C by virtue of us assuming that the term "infinite" applies to the 5-D axis. That's just clearly not how we treat it.

it's infinite in "comparison" to it as well as infinite in its entirety as a structure. You need to understand what's the implications here my friend.

I have yet to see a scan that stipulates that the Demon World is infinite "in comparison" to a constituent realm.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

We did explain this. It is because the term "infinite" would apply to it regardless. By definition a 2-A structure is an infinite multiverse with an insignificantly sized 5-D axis. If your premise were correct, any time that an otherwise 2-A structure is called "infinite" it would become Low 1-C by virtue of us assuming that the term "infinite" applies to the 5-D axis. That's just clearly not how we treat it.

That's a huge issue all things aside. I have statements that it is not just infinite in comparison to a space-time continuum but also on its own as a structure that demands that same soo called "insignificant" 5-D axis to be infinite and the fact this is still being questioned here is beyond me.

I have yet to see a scan that stipulates that the Demon World is infinite "in comparison" to a constituent realm.

Ray of Light? Hello? There is a clear comparison between Darkness and Light, a duel concept? Said Darkness was on panel stated to be infinite as a "container" on top of it?

If you take a really close look, you can see that one specific page is talking in regards to the state of existence of the primordial universe. Ray of Light, or Human World so to speak, is just another instance as how insignificant its existence is to the overall thing. The best way is how it is depicted as Light and Darkness instead of mere universes, showcasing just how different these two worlds are in comparison to eachother, the size is just additional content there.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Literally anyone who can read that panel acknowledge the implications right on spot. I don't know why it is soo hard to get.

 

[Deagonx]

That's a huge issue all things aside. I have statements that it is not just infinite in comparison to a space-time continuum

Okay, I am more than happy to review them. Where are they?

but also on its own as a structure that demands that same soo called "insignificant" 5D axis to be infinite

The Demon World being called infinite "on its own" does not necessarily refer to its 5-D axis. That was one of the main arguments of the earlier thread.

Ray of Light? Hello?

That argument was hashed out extensively in this thread. Also the Darkness was never described as a "container" for the light.

However, you appear to be completely changing the premise of your CRT. These are all arguments for Low 1-C by virtue of an infinite 5-D axis, not 2-A which is characterized by an infinite amount of Low 2-C structures.

Literally anyone who can read that panel acknowledge the implications right on spot. I don't know why it is soo hard to get.

I disagree with your conclusion, and the last time this argument took place, most staff did as well.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Okay, I am more than happy to review them. Where are they?

Right infront of you? The CRT you are in right now?

The Demon World being called infinite "on its own" does not necessarily refer to its 5-D axis. That was one of the main arguments of the earlier thread.

And says who exactly? That's just being nitpicky right now. It's evidently clear everyone here would accept it having an insignificant 5-D axis soo why can't we treat it as infinite? You want to bring Ultima? He himself accepts it that the case could lean to Low-1C tier in contrast to previous CRT post of his where he didn't implied anything like that as we speak.

That argument was hashed out extensively in this thread. Also the Darkness was never described as a "container" for the light.

I failed to see why because the manga clearly depicted it like this.

However, you appear to be completely changing the premise of your CRT. These are all arguments for Low 1-C by virtue of an infinite 5-D axis, not 2-A which is characterized by an infinite amount of Low 2-C structures.

This is 2A as an extension of L1C. As I said before, the logic given to us on the manga demands it to be 2A at the end of everything, L1C is there as a possible rating as a result of it.

 

[Deagonx]

Right infront of you? The CRT you are in right now?

Can you be specific?

And says who exactly? That's just being nitpicky right now. It's evidently clear everyone here would accept it having an insignificant 5-D axis soo why can't we treat it as infinite?

I already explained this. It's normal to refer to 2-A structures as "infinite" despite them having a 5-D axis which is not infinite, and there's no evidence that the Demon World's 5-D axis is infinite.

I failed to see why because the manga clearly depicted it like this.

Okay, your stance on the matter is noted. I don't share it.

This is 2A as an extension of L1C. As I said before, the logic given to us on the manga demands it to be 2A at the end of everything, L1C is there as a possible rating as a result of it.

That's not really a coherent premise. If the 5-D axis is infinite it's Low 1-C, regardless of whether it has infinite universes within it or not. If the 5-D axis is not infinite, then we would need evidence of it having infinite universes in order to give it 2-A, which we don't have, so it would just be 2-C.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Can you be specific?

Can you explain the difference between L2C and 2C again to me? I wanna see what's the difference you think they have. 2A is a long gone situation at this point onwards.

I already explained this. It's normal to refer to 2-A structures as "infinite" despite them having a 5-D axis which is not infinite, and there's no evidence that the Demon World's 5-D axis is infinite.

Ummm... The evidence is right there? Container? Something that contains within? A whole structure? Excuse me?

Okay, your stance on the matter is noted. I don't share it

Thank you for admitting it.

.That's not really a coherent premise. If the 5-D axis is infinite it's Low 1-C, regardless of whether it has infinite universes within it or not. If the 5-D axis is not infinite, then we would need evidence of it having infinite universes in order to give it 2-A, which we don't have, so it would just be 2-C.

Okay I'm taking your vote as disagreement because I know for a fact now you wouldn't change your stance here despite how much I persist.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Anyway, I'm going for sleep. We'll talk tomorrow over it and I hope DT is arrived till then. Otherwise I don't have anything to say aside from repeating same thing upto 4 pages over and over again at this point.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

It feels like Deagonx is biased (in a negative way).

Low 1-C seems obvious to me, and even 2-A is a huge understatement. What was discussed in older threads doesn't carry weight for this thread. An infinite universe is considered just a limited little object (of seemingly finite size) against a world that is considered infinite for it. I don't see how this could be more obvious.

Especially considering that the demon world has, as far as I know, a higher time axis on top of it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

It feels like Deagonx is biased (in a negative way).

Deagonx has only stated their opinion and isn't the only person who has disagreed so I don't see the biased and negativity. This would only be the case if they have no reasoning, can we not leave comments like this please.

 

[Deagonx]

Can you explain the difference between L2C and 2C again to me?

Low 2-C is a single 4-D structure. 2-C is multiple (2 - 1000).

Ummm... The evidence is right there? Container? Something that contains within? A whole structure? Excuse me?

Can you use scans? I don't know what evidence you're referring to.

Thank you for admitting it.

I don't know what you believe I am admitting to. Was it not already clear that I disagreed?

It feels like Deagonx is biased (in a negative way).

Low 1-C seems obvious to me, and even 2-A is a huge understatement. What was discussed in older threads doesn't carry weight for this thread. An infinite universe is considered just a limited little object (of seemingly finite size) against a world that is considered infinite for it. I don't see how this could be more obvious.

That was the subject of discussion in his last thread. It was overwhelmingly rejected.

Especially considering that the demon world has, as far as I know, a higher time axis on top of it.

This was also rejected.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

This was also rejected.

And how? It is stated as directly as possible that Sparda stopped time in the Demon World. This means that the Demon World has its own time axis, and it is CLEARLY not about him stopping time for a specific realm, because the Demon World is not a specific Realm, it is a collection of morbillions of realms.

Please do not write about what was done in old threads. We have THIS thread. In this thread, you can start anything again. This time, the majority agrees with the arguments that were previously rejected.

The Demon World is immeasurably larger than the universe and has a time axis on top of it, I see this as obvious.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

And how? It is stated as directly as possible that Sparda stopped time in the Demon World. This means that the Demon World has its own time axis, and it is CLEARLY not about him stopping time for a specific realm, because the Demon World is not a specific Realm, it is a collection of morbillions of realms.

Please do not write about what was done in old threads. We have THIS thread. In this thread, you can start anything again. This time, the majority agrees with the arguments that were previously rejected.

The Demon World is immeasurably larger than the universe and has a time axis on top of it, I see this as obvious.

Minos lets just stop here. You and I know this isn't going to move him much, it didn't moved him back then and it wouldn't move him now.

Now what really is gonna move from here is DT commenting for who we are waiting right now for due to Ultima and us applying the thread right on spot, according to the way the votes are structured. That's all. It's his opinion, not a fact that everybody has to follow.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Was asked to comment here. I suppose 2-A is pretty straightforward. Not totally sure about Low 1-C since Tier 1 is not my expertise, so just leave me out of that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Was asked to comment here. I suppose 2-A is pretty straightforward.

It would be beneficial for the conversation if you can state what part is "straightforward" if only to keep as reference in the future.

 

[Deagonx]

It is stated as directly as possible that Sparda stopped time in the Demon World. This means that the Demon World has its own time axis, and it is CLEARLY not about him stopping time for a specific realm, because the Demon World is not a specific Realm, it is a collection of morbillions of realms.

Please do not write about what was done in old threads. We have THIS thread. In this thread, you can start anything again. This time, the majority agrees with the arguments that were previously rejected.

For a hyper timeline to be relevant for tiering, it's concept of past/future must be orthogonal from the typical time axis. It can't just be a "bigger" or "separate" time axis, it needs to be directionally distinct, which is a very abstract concept that you can't just stumble your way into by stopping time in one location.

The Demon World is immeasurably larger than the universe and has a time axis on top of it, I see this as obvious.

There's no evidence that the Demon World is infinitely larger, and it having its own time axis doesn't give it a higher tier.

Was asked to comment here. I suppose 2-A is pretty straightforward.

There's literally no evidence of there being an infinite number of universes, OP isn't even claiming there is. Can you clarify what actually convinced you that this is 2-A? The OP's arguments revolve around it being Low 1-C.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

To clarify my neutral stance, I'm neutral in 2-A because I've never seen it attempted like this before specifically and I'm still trying to decide if it counts. As for Low 1-C, I'm currently on the disagree side at the moment but Tier 1 is a topic I like to stay away from. If it gets accepted then it it's what it is.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

it's concept of past/future must be orthogonal from the typical time axis. It can't just be a "bigger" or "separate" time axis, it needs to be directionally distinct, which

What does that mean? Can explain and elaborate? I having trouble visualising it.

you can't just stumble your way into by stopping time in one location.

They very clearly mentioned it wasn't stopping time in "one location".

There's no evidence that the Demon World is infinitely larger

That's patently false. You know there exists an explicit statement which compares sizes and calls DW infinite.
You want to argue standards qualify or not is a different ball game. Saying evidence doesn't exist is dishonest.

 

[Robo432343]

"The world is born of darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals."

wait a minute
wasn't it accepted that this statement ended up just being a hyperbole and that it can't really be used for scaling

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

wait a minute
wasn't it accepted that this statement ended up just being a hyperbole and that it can't really be used for scaling

Where?
That statement has been debated and defended countless amount of times. It means exactly what it says. It has been contested countless times by detractors without success.
I remember proposing or publicly stating on some thread my plan to propose a Discussion Rule to discourage a repeated breach of same topic.

So I would appreciate if wierd claims phrased as questions aren't pulled out of the ass.

 

[Robo432343]

Where?
That statement has been debated and defended countless amount of times. It means exactly what it says. It has been contested countless times by detractors without success.
I remember proposing or publicly stating on some thread my plan to propose a Discussion Rule to discourage a repeated breach of same topic.

So I would appreciate if wierd claims phrased as questions aren't pulled out of the ass.

Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

I would rather not be here. The Original Claims Tier 1 DMC is primarily based upon two statements as showcased in this blog (ignore the first half, as it is outdated), both indicating that the Demon World is qualitatively superior to the Human World. The first stems from the manga, where it is...

vsbattles.com

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

I would rather not be here. The Original Claims Tier 1 DMC is primarily based upon two statements as showcased in this blog (ignore the first half, as it is outdated), both indicating that the Demon World is qualitatively superior to the Human World. The first stems from the manga, where it is...

vsbattles.com

The only final conclusion of thread was that "standards aren't met", iirc they were changed.

If you read that thread, you will find me and others debunking the "hyperbole" for the thousandth time.

I would appreciate if you were a little more specific and accurate on such a sensitive topic, instead of posting an old thread as if it means anything.
And I am pretty sure skipped Sonic's later cosmology threads if you just blindly linked that thread which you maybe randomly found with just a cursory search.

 

[Deagonx]

What does that mean? Can explain and elaborate? I having trouble visualising it.

It's not something that can be visualized. Frankly I think the concept is basically incoherent, but some verses do use it. Regardless, that literally is what the tiering requirement is for scaling multiple temporal dimensions.

They very clearly mentioned it wasn't stopping time in "one location".

It's a distinction without a difference. This was discussed at length in the last thread, it doesn't qualify.

That's patently false. You know there exists an explicit statement which compares sizes and calls DW infinite.
You want to argue standards qualify or not is a different ball game. Saying evidence doesn't exist is dishonest.

I'm not being dishonest, I'm reporting the situation to the extent I am aware of it. I have seen no evidence that makes a comparison in size such that the DW is infinite "relative to" something else.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It's not something that can be visualized. Frankly I think the concept is basically incoherent, but some verses do use it.

Do you have digestible example of how it works.

It's a distinction without a difference. This was discussed at length in the last thread, it doesn't qualify.

Link.

I'm not being dishonest, I'm reporting the situation to the extent I am aware of it. I have seen no evidence that makes a comparison in size such that the DW is infinite "relative to" something else.

Don't act stranger. You know about the manga scan. As usual you are just arguing semantics and least favourable interpretation.

 

[Deagonx]

Do you have digestible example of how it works.

That would be better suited to a QnA thread, not a CRT.

Link.

Yikes! I suppose even Fuji May Cry after looking at this upgrade CRT

Sup ladies and gentlemen As you know, we sophisticated gigachad DMC bros before hoes were ignored... Left to die on the road... Without any mercy... But you know what? We decided to came back with vengeance from the ashes of despair. "B-B-BuT sOnIc HoW'S tHaT pOsSiBlE???" You may ask...

vsbattles.com

Don't act stranger. You know about the manga scan. As usual you are just arguing semantics and least favourable interpretation.

I don't know what you're trying to communicate.

 

[Eseseso]

Seems like the Demon World would just be 2-A, I don't see anything supporting Low 1-C

 

[Hasty12345]

Do you have digestible example of how it works.

Dragon Ball has a hyper timeline, the blog can be found via Zeno’s page I believe. That’s the most obvious and valid case I can think of.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Anyway, I'm waiting one more day for DT to reply because I don't have obligations to have it remained open for him. There is already many things to take care of.

 

[Deagonx]

Demon World, as an infinite realm containing countless worlds, should logically qualify as at least Multiverse+ in scale,

Anyway, I'm waiting one more day for DT to reply because I don't have obligations to have it remained open for him. There is already many things to take care of.

Why would this pass when you are freely admitting that the premise of the upgrade is just not true, and what you're actually arguing for is Low 1-C, which has been rejected?

 

[Huesito88]

Anyway, I'm waiting one more day for DT to reply because I don't have obligations to have it remained open for him. There is already many things to take care of.

Let's not be super hasty here, DT can always open the thread back up himself, when he decides to review and judge this.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Why would this pass when you are freely admitting that the premise of the upgrade is just not true, and what you're actually arguing for is Low 1-C, which has been rejected?

I have nothing to argue with you at this point as I've made my points very clear why and how. 2A makes sense given the context which you on point accepted as not sharing the interpretation which is your problem in contrast to everyone who sees it being legit here.

As regarding L1C which was rejected without going into the matter further, at this point I think you are intentionally trying to ignore that Ultima recently stated that L1C can be possible here too which is why we are waiting for DT in the first place which, again, was nothing like the case back then in the previous CRT.

Take present into consideration, not the past... The past is gone, the present is right now.

 

[Hellformer]

Waiting for sometime isn't gonna cause a disaster.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Waiting for sometime isn't gonna cause a disaster.

Well if you say so then so be it I suppose.

 

[Hellformer]

Well if you say so then so be it I suppose.

I mean waiting for DT to respond shouldn't be an issue

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Dead chat ahh environment

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

The Ray of Light thing has been debunked in other threads beforehand from what I remember.

But from reading this thread and my thoughts are that I would say 2A is possible but anything higher is a resounding no.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Bump

 

[Huesito88]

So it's been like 9 days, and as much as I'm fine with basically waiting an infinite amount of time, I know some others definitely aren't. So at what point will we have to go with DontTalk isn't coming, what's the cut off date exactly to call it there for that? (2 weeks, 1 month, 1.5 months, etc?)