- 70
- 18
Tengen > Rengoku > Mitsuri >/~ Gyomei >~ Sanemi~Giyu >~ Shinobu (interchangable) ~ Muichiro > Obanai.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Demon Slayer (Kimetsu no Yaiba) - Breath of Discussion: 5th Form
- Thread starter ShadowWhoWalks
- Start date
-
- Tags
- kimetsu no yaiba
HelloThere1089
He/Him- 3,287
- 4,018
Hold on. Tengen strongest? I mean I ain't complaining but that's way different from what I've heard.
Ped2018
He/Him- 5,032
- 6,092
???
- 5,122
- 2,627
Gyomei is supposed to be the strongest and Obanai certainly isn't fighting like he is the weakest.
- 1,411
- 988
Edit: suffice ti say, spoiler for anime onlys lol
as was the prior bs that got to nowhere, gyomei is unambiguously the strongest hashira, i have no idea what you're even talking about here
to reiterate what i tried to explain before muichiro was unambiguously blitzed even after his mark appears and while he was using the move that blitzed uppermoon 5, and as i stated his sword gets inches away from Kokushibo's neck before kokushibo completely disappears and reappears behind him, muichiro then says that his speed is in another dimension, he then goes for another attack only for Kokushibo to grab his blade and impale him on it, there's no world in which that doesn't require Kokushibo to massively outspeed him, senses have nothing to do with this, no matter how well muichiro's senses were, he can never even hope to keep up with kokushibo's attacks
and no, as i said prior, sanemi does not state he would have ended up like muichiro had he not had as much experience as he currently did, he says that he would have been unable to defend himself due to the chaos and randomness of the attacks.
it's good to noote that Kokushibo didn't even use Breath of the Moon to impale muichiro, he just used his speed, sanemi performs overhwelmingly better, and fights for a while even as Kokushibo was increasing his speed, the latter was even surprised that he's still keeping up, altough at that point Sanemi couldn't even blink
what about gyomei?
well, he is even faster and manages to snap Kokushibo's sword before unlocking his mark and marked gyomei scales higher than marked sanemi since he blocked an attack that Marked Sanemi couldn't react to.
there is no wrold where base sanemi is not at least like sveral dozen times faster than marked muichiro and wehre gyomei isn't the strongest of the bunch, it's kind of comical to even argue otherwise
Last edited:
- 1,411
- 988
oh trust me when i say he isn't, nope, none, shnada, pas du tout, not in the slightest
- 70
- 18
He's got some good scaling in the manga and some stuff in the novels. If you watched the Hashira Training episode of him, his win cons are even higher.
- 70
- 18
Gyomei's just the strongest in physicality. I do not agree with him being the strongest overall. None of his statements apply to at least 2 of the ones I placed above, as they're either dead or left the corps. His fighting style is interesting but I don't think it works on any experienced or skilled fighter. Shinobu might be lower, now that I think about it.
Epyriel
He/Him- 252
- 329
What!? He got soloed by Upper Moon 6 and never got the benefits of the Mark nor any other EOS abilities. Literally every other Hashira has better scaling chains.
Marked Muichiro no diffed UM5, Marked Mitsuri was able to effectively battle UM4 to a stalemate before running out of stamina, Rengoku was able to harm and somewhat keep up with UM3, Giyu was able to keep up even better than Rengoku against UM3, Shinobu was able to outright blitz base UM2, Obanai was able to outperform Mitsuri against Muzan, Sanemi and Gyomei could keep up with base Kokushibo (who himself stated they were the best of the order) with Marked Gyomei even being able to keep up with LS Kokushibo.
- 70
- 18
[SPOILER FOR ANIME ONLY'S]
You don't need to be as fast as a bullet to dodge it close-up before it even fires. This is something Sanemi does (At that moment, a mysterious presence rose from the demon's sword, making no sound or awareness.) within this very battle, yet you're cherry picking information to suit your agenda. In fact Sanemi says that if he hadn't had senses on this lvl he would be dead. This is exactly why Muichiro lost as the novel further reaffirms. (Muichiro's skills are certain, but in terms of years as a demon-slayer, he was shallow among the hashira.) None of the hashira present scale to Kokushibo in speed they just aim dodge him as the page literally states;
A. Muichiro was unable to defend himself against Koku's attacks AT ALL, due to primarily senses.
B. Unable to defend left him in a position where he couldn't move and would've died if Koku had the intention to do so.
A+B. Sanemi without these senses would be unable to defend against Koku's attacks AT ALL and would leave him in a similar state or even dead if Koku has intention to do so.
This is perfectly consistent with the Sanemi and Muichiro relativity in the anime, my interpretation doesn't cause a contradiction within the narrative to remain consistent.
Sanemi performing better in question is due to senses and pre-cog. He's far slower than Koku and is relative to Muichiro in physicality but would do better cuz y'know senses and pre-cog. You're also presupposing Kokushibo used the same amount of speed on Sanemi and Muichiro which is something you'd also have to do in order for your claims to work.
Zero basis for Gyomei to be strongest. What are you talking about it being unambiguously, you can clearly have an alternate interpretation about what the title "strongest" is about.
Muichiro never blitzed Gyokko and that's something you could never prove. He simply confused his senses and moves in a manner that is unpredictable for his already dull senses. I don't know why you keep bringing up it being inches away from Kokushibo's neck. That doesn't change anything, because I already agreed that Muichiro is vastly inferior to Kokushibo in speed. You strawman me I never said physical speed = senses. However, with refined senses you can keep up with attacks before they even land or appear hence rendering the massive speed difference useless.
You don't need to be as fast as a bullet to dodge it close-up before it even fires. This is something Sanemi does (At that moment, a mysterious presence rose from the demon's sword, making no sound or awareness.) within this very battle, yet you're cherry picking information to suit your agenda. In fact Sanemi says that if he hadn't had senses on this lvl he would be dead. This is exactly why Muichiro lost as the novel further reaffirms. (Muichiro's skills are certain, but in terms of years as a demon-slayer, he was shallow among the hashira.) None of the hashira present scale to Kokushibo in speed they just aim dodge him as the page literally states;
Sanemi re-positioned himself hence he's aim-dodging by definition. It being a close-range fight doesn't defeat the notion that he can aim-dodge.
Lmfao. You're just arguing semantics atp. Anyway, steelmanning that your translation is the correct one, through deductive reasoning we can deduce he'd die or very well lose still.
A. Muichiro was unable to defend himself against Koku's attacks AT ALL, due to primarily senses.
B. Unable to defend left him in a position where he couldn't move and would've died if Koku had the intention to do so.
A+B. Sanemi without these senses would be unable to defend against Koku's attacks AT ALL and would leave him in a similar state or even dead if Koku has intention to do so.
This is perfectly consistent with the Sanemi and Muichiro relativity in the anime, my interpretation doesn't cause a contradiction within the narrative to remain consistent.
Asserting he didn't use Moon Breathing on Muichiro is a positive claim. Nowhere is it said that he didn't. If you're going to come and argue that because 'we don't see it' then that's an argument from silence and ignorance. We have statements or implications suggesting that they don't need to say or show that they used it in the manga. You can't prove that claim no matter how hard you try.
Sanemi performing better in question is due to senses and pre-cog. He's far slower than Koku and is relative to Muichiro in physicality but would do better cuz y'know senses and pre-cog. You're also presupposing Kokushibo used the same amount of speed on Sanemi and Muichiro which is something you'd also have to do in order for your claims to work.
He's not faster than Sanemi as shown when he gets outpaced as seen here [1], [2] and here [1], [2]. Why are you bringing up whetever he snaps his sword, Sanemi partially did and would've done that too. Anyway, that's irrelevant as the topic is speed. Stop derailing. Yea, Gyomei's senses and pre-cog surely is impressive isn't it? Gyomei reacted to that not through a speed-superiority but through pre-cogging. This is further supported by how the attack isn't even in that said panel and how Gyomei was confused about what Kokushibo's done. If he saw the attack he wouldn't act all confused and flabbergasted. Using occam's razor based on Gyomei's reaction we can infer that Gyomei pre-cogged it while Sanemi has worse pre-cog thus he didn't react. Give Sanemi these insanely good senses and he's reacting in the same fashion Gyomei did lol. This applies to Muichiro as well.
Pulled that quantification out of nowhere lol, mr. baseless. Anyway, it's not like you proved that this is an indication of lack of speed. It's a lack of experience and pre-cog ability as I've proved multiple times while you keep asserting assumptions about lack of speed without proper justification. Them hashira are relative in physicality. Gyomei has no narrative to suggest he's the strongest overall. All his statements are about his muscular strength/how he lifts huge things. He's not winning against Tengen, Mitsuri or Rengoku and he gets slammed by each one of them. Funny thing is these statements don't even apply to 2 of these hashira as they've retired/died MONTHS before/after these statements and we obv know they're going on missions, train etc thus grow stronger hence you can't backscale.
- 70
- 18
[SPOILER FOR ANIME-ONLYS]
I also don't use the demon hierarchy as I think it's flawed and doesn't take power-ups into consideration such as the Flute Demon stating he was just joining the LM's but didn't have the number yet which is also supported by how his wolves can pierce through corps outfits which even non-LM tiers can't render with an additional statement that it won't protect against kizuki tiers. He's obviously LM tier but wasn't promoted yet. Rui has a similar statement saying he's LM1-2 in strength and could've replaced them even in his nerfed state. Had he absorbed his power from his family he'd have supposedly 1vs2 (?) Giyu and Shinobu. The narrative also supports that a weaker ranked kizuki can beat a higher ranked kizuki after they get a boost in power which is 2 days before Tanjiro and co arrived (Muzan states Daki is now much stronger and Muzan gives them blood when he sees improvements) hence we can't rlly backscale.
My bad for the long wall of text lol.
You're wrong though, saying be got soloed by UM6 is half-truth at best. You can't get soloed when two UM tier demons are jumping you. Even then, he almost manages to kill both of them in an extremely weakened state where he has trouble holding his own swords up. He doesn't need the mark or other bum EOS abilities, which are all inferior to Tengen's abilities anyway, to compete or beat any other hashira. They don't. Scaling to Gyutaro, who's the strongest UM, is already vastly better scaling than whatever the other hashira have.
Marked Mui didn't no diff Gyokko. He had to use a form that was advantageous to his already dulled senses and had trouble keeping up with BDA • KFS. In which he failed to even tag Gyokko once and was also a whole perception blitz above Marked Muichiro's perception.
Mitsuri didn't battle the actual UM4, the actual UM4 is Hantengu who already scales above Zohakuten by itself. Zohakuten's stats alone are at best LM lvl and the only reason he's got good win-cons is due to his immortality. Zohakuten scales below Tengen anyway as his best reaction feat (not even combat speed) is reacting to a holding back Base Mitsuri who didn't even use the necessities of overcoming Tengen's speed as the manga states she needs to use breathing techniques, her feminine flexibility and whip-swords flexibility and stacked momentum of swinging it to reach Tengen.
I don't think Akaza scales to Gyutaro and I def don't think even Marked Giyu did better than Rengoku. He got toyed with and at the end he got p.blitzed and was always a p.blitz speed lower than Akaza. I think Gyutaro scales above due to Tanjiro stating Daki has the strongest and closest smell to Muzan which is after he saw Akaza. I hope I don't need to explain Gyu > Daki.
I think she was relative to him most of the time and only managed to do so with a technique she barely uses which he still manages to react to and only gets his neck pierced due to a blind-spot of the falling sleeve. As for Obanai I don't agree he outperforms her. She's the first to tag Muzan's neck in a 1vs1 while he also defended, outpacing him. She kind of got hit the most with Muzan's blood as well due to her having an open chest area without the resilient corps uniform protecting her + it being a larger slash compared to the other two.
Gyomei and Sanemi don't scale to Kokushibo. They got blitzed numerous times even by Monster Koku who's weaker than Base Koku as the notion is that a demon gets weaker when they lose their head. I don't think Koku has proper knowledge on the hashira's power and I'm certain that statement applies to skill not necessarily power.
I also don't use the demon hierarchy as I think it's flawed and doesn't take power-ups into consideration such as the Flute Demon stating he was just joining the LM's but didn't have the number yet which is also supported by how his wolves can pierce through corps outfits which even non-LM tiers can't render with an additional statement that it won't protect against kizuki tiers. He's obviously LM tier but wasn't promoted yet. Rui has a similar statement saying he's LM1-2 in strength and could've replaced them even in his nerfed state. Had he absorbed his power from his family he'd have supposedly 1vs2 (?) Giyu and Shinobu. The narrative also supports that a weaker ranked kizuki can beat a higher ranked kizuki after they get a boost in power which is 2 days before Tanjiro and co arrived (Muzan states Daki is now much stronger and Muzan gives them blood when he sees improvements) hence we can't rlly backscale.
My bad for the long wall of text lol.
- 1,411
- 988
the fastest and the strongest is the intepretation being argued for in case you're wondering, as if we could be speaking about any other intepretation right now given the context
he slashed his head off before he could react and was moving fast enough for gyokko to be unable to preceive him, i have no idea what mind games you're playing here but that's a textbook definition blitz in demon slayer giyu did the same to rui and tengen did the same to daki ie he slashed her head off and she didn't even know it, unless you have some counterarguments or evidence that this isn't a blitz then it is
you linked the same thing twice, that isn't a demonstration of dulled senses that's a demonstration of the superior speed the opponent has, muichiro was indeed confusing gyokko with unpredictable movements as he was slowing down and immediately accelerating thus giving the illusion that he wasn't even there and the fact that he couldn't follow his movements at all demonstrates muichiro's speed is too much for his reaction time, and thus, you get it, his speed, so what happened next?
be got blitzed because he couldn't see the sword coming from in front of him, if you want to prove he has dull senses when all yo have is a statement from muichiro whose whole shtick up to then was to mock gyokko then you might as well have nothing substantial
do you then acknowledge that no matter how good his senses become he can never dodge nor react to kokushibo's attakcs exept maybe the first one?
the sequence of events are in this order (presumably as you never even bothered to give any shred of evidence anyone besides tanjiro can see the future besides giving me one panel where sanemi dodges an attack that already started it before it comes out and saying "this proves everything")
assuming base sanemi = marked muichiro who is several dozen times slower than kokushibo by sheer basic math that he managed to move several meters befor muichiro's already in motion sword that's inches away from his neck touches him (and do note since you're missing the entire point that he is currently holding back, and before you try any shenanigans it's holding back in the sens that he isn't going all out 100% from the get go, not that he is holding back against sanemi more than he did against muichiro as there is no substantial evidence or information for anyone to come to that conclusion and thus it should be ignored and not bleieved no matter who is saying it unless he/she is providing sufficient enough reasoning for that to be the case so in the hypothetical scenario where base sanemi = marked muichiro in speed, he is still several dozen times faster than sanemi is while holding back )
i use so many words to drive a single point home, now let's go to further analysis
attack prepares to be unleashes -> sanemi sees the future 1000 attacks coming before they do -> he dodges the first one -> secon attack in coming, from the prior vision he had, he already knows about it -> he tries to do-oops,he is dead
there is one thing you need to get across your head is once the first attack is over sanemi would have to dodge the second attack that will alread be in it's way towards him and with basic physics of speed = distance /time, the attack that's several dozen times faster will cover so much more distance in a much smalled timeframe that even if sanemi knew about where the attack was going to land as it was moving towards him, he will never be able to dodge it without the necessary speed required as such a speed difference implies being able to throw at least 10 attacks in the time it will take him to dodge 1, even if he predicts one and aimdodges, and even if he predicts the following thousands of attacks, the argument is he physically can not move in time to avoid them all still holds up (the orginal damn argument)
aimdodging an attack that much faster is fine, i never said anything about that part, the issue that flew over your head doing it in repeated succession over the course of an entire god damn fight, there needs to be a huge gap between every attack for this to be possible and there wasn't, "he has better senses" is no way shape or form an explanation for doing the phyiscally impossible you're claiming he did as if literally even one of the upccoming attacks occupy the space he is in, he is getting hit, he physically can not dodge anything even if he knows what's coming.
in order for this feat to transpire the way you are trying to claim, it would imply sanemi is not several dozen times slower/equal to mared sanemi and is in fact that relative to the speed koushibo was using then before he amps it and gets serious, otherwise he can't physically dodge shit even if he predicted it was coming.
to say it again, whatever bs you're claiming is Impossible, given the speed difference established sanemi can not physically move his body in the time it takes him to land a hit, you keep ignoring that, it would be like if someone put a gun to your head, pulled the trigger, fired the bullet, and you managed to dodge the supersonic bullet by moving your body despite the fact it was mere inches away from your skull, and the bullet already fired, it doesn't matter if you know it's coming or not, you physically cannot dodge it, and if you DO dodge it, then by direct correlation you are relative it in speed
i will not be taking my chances, let's explain this again
you see what's happening here? how they're exchanging so many blows?
even if sanemi was able to see the future and start attacking before koku's attacks even started, he moves body from Point A to Point B over a certain distance within a certain timeframe if koku was several dozen times faster than he is he can still unleash several dozen more blows in the time it will take him to unleash one so even if sanemi, for whatever reason, had better senses than someone more skilled than he is the panel above implies he is relative to the speed kokushibo was using against marked muichiro and thus scales far higher than marked muichiro in speed even in base
i legititmately hope this will never be brought up again because it's stupid, and prove sanemi has precog while you're at it
same thing here, i explained above everything that needs to be said, i will take this there
ah yes, i'm using logic, how very bad of me but let's see the bs you have written here now
in the panel you sent the breath of the moon attack was already in preperation and was being initiated, this isn't dodging an attack before it happens, this is dodging it as it's already being prepared to be launched, which makes your argument that much worse, in the very translation you provided it says a mysterious presence rose from the demon's sword i have no idea what the context is here but it doesn't change the fact that the presence he felt was from the sword, meaning it wasn't there before, meaning something changed and thus made some form of "presence" rise from the sword, by process of elimination the only presence thing that changed in the panel you sent is koku was preparing an attack and was in the process of launching it, sanemi felt something and jumped out of the way, meaning he jumped out of the way from an attack that already started and thus he scales to that in speed, no bullshit i see the future senses here, this actively works against, and the last thing i'm doing is cherry picking anything, i'm using logic, you're using pseudo logic, that's all there is to it
that literally means the same thing as this
who is cherry picking now huh, he wouldn't survive the the distorted attacks if he didn't have as much experience, same interpretations as mine, to stop your shenannigans once again, it went like this
the shape of the attacks i tought i dodged aren't the same, they're distorted -> i couldn't have survived if my senses hadn't been honed from long experience
what do you think the order in which these was said implies?
the other translations futher supports this intepretation, and the fan translation has a far better record of making things right that it wouldn't even matter anyways
with this, all your "evidence" about precog turns to ashes
and being shallow implies being lacking compared to them, not sure how that helps you
the aim dodging bs has been dealt with, please next time try to think before saying anything, i won't deal with the rest of the unecessary aim dodging bs
lmfao indeed, that says the same thing with different words
the fact that you keep insinsting it's because of his senses when it's literally because of speed is beyond me
do you not comprehend what happened here?
look at the bottom left corner of the second link, as the sword was inches away from his neck kokushibo stole it and impaled muichiro with it, assuming muichiro by the point the sword was inches away from koku's neck knew what will happen, pray do tell what do you think will happen then
do you think that
A muichiro gets blitzed anyways
or
B he now magically makes up for the speed difference and will be able to hold his ground
yes, because his speed sucked and he could in no way shape or form react to or even fight someone who can move several meters in the time his moving swords inches away from his neck can move several inches, i already elaborated why this is stupid
already dealt with this bs
you mean in the sparring match where they weren't fighting to the death, prove they're actually relative, periode, the manga says otherwise and even outside the fact that those were sparring matches and i repeat sparring matches (in which to even have a point you have to prove they were going all out )filler bullshit is far less credible than the manga, if you want to argue they're relative despite what i showed use logic and prove it
you also can't prove there isn't a wooden tea pot floating in outer space in the void far away from our galaxy, there are no scenes or evidence to show it, and therefore it shouldn't be belived that he did, if you think it should be beleived and want us to take you seriously cough up the evidence and show where he did
that is presupposing kokushibo didn't multiply his speed times a billion to deal with sanemi, which is something you'd have to prove for your claims to work
see? i speak bullshit 2, same as above, there are no scenes or evidence to show it, and therefore it shouldn't be belived, if you think it should be beleived and want us to take you seriously cough up the evidence and show where he did
i also love the fact that you completely ignored these
what's that? kokushibo was....increasing his speed agaisnt sanemi? and it says the same in both translations so you can't wiggle your way out of this?
koku is suprised that he is even keeping up?
whatever could be the reason for this i wonder
those scenes show nothing, one is sanemi screaming in rage and attacking and gyomie attacking after him, the other shows the same, gyomei could have been doing anything in that time, he was literally off screen, you know what actually proves something and makes a point directly to your face?
this
no matter how interpret this scene, it proves beyond the shadows of a doubt that gyomei is faster, there are no other possible interpretations for this, if gyomei didn't switch the attack's trajectory sanemi would have lost both of his arms
sanemi got gutted like a fish, sanemi did nowhere near as good as gyomei when he fought and he also didn't come close to shattering koku's sword and he also wouldn't have done it, no one will bleive that, and they have no reason to beleive it if you don't cough up the evidence
irrelevant because you said so?
being faster implies you would do better, if anything gyomei literally did the same thing koku did to muichiro by jumping out of the way of his sword when it was this close
your stupid senses shenanigans won't work here (that you've yet to prove and that i already dealt with the only semblance of "evidence" you have)
kokushibo's already moving sword is close to his neck
the same sword that sanemi couldn't even blink when facing unless he wanted to die
my ahh, lmao, where is your evidence?
cough it up, prove that the hsashira have the some imaginary precog senses
he is blind, the **** are you on about, he can't see anything to begin with, and even then, he was wondering what the hell changed and how kokushibo managed to hit both of them when they weren't even in his range, not only that koku was behind a bunch of smoke, i have no idea how this is supposed to help you
you're presuposing that he has precog, you're not proving it, he managed to react to what he could "see" coming, and that's all there was to it, if you want to say it was his senses here, cough up the evidence that implies it "this supports my position if you interpret it like this" isn't evidence, it's cherry picking and catching on straws
and even if we have it your way, let's put yp these assumptions
A gyomei put his chain in front of sanemi
B sanemi couldn't process what he did in time to ask him why
A+B gyomei blitzed sanemi
if yout want to imply they have the same speed and reaction time without their all mighty yet to be proven precog then as soon as sanemi saw the chains he would have known something was wrong and braced for it as they were there before koku's attack was instead of standing there like an idiot and let the incoming attack attack hit him, if he had the precog you were hyping him to have he would have seen how gyomei's chain was about to be in front of him and deduce something out of it then react, he would have seen the attack coming before it did and react to it like so you amazingly claim he has the ability to, or did he mysteriously lose it here?
pray do tell, why couldn't sanemi react to the oncoming attack, but gyomei could, despite them both having precog, and both having the same speed?
why couldn't he see gyomei's chainmail coming in front of him and change the trajectory of the incoming attack, then react to it instead and instead got blitzed?
you're putting under the flimsy rug of "better future seeing senses", start explaining and elaborating what they mean, and do note, prove they even have any precog to begin with
with clear, consice evidence
occam's razor implies gyomei had better rection time and speed, that's the actual safer assumption that requires no assumptions and simple deduction skills, not that he magically has precog he was never shown to have that you poofed into existence, if you want to state that's the simpler option them having precog should be a 100% undeniable phenomenon, not one you pulled out of nowhere
for the umpteenth time, prove that they have precog
prove that without the shadow of a doubt that they have precog as you're assuming they do
character A moves several meters in time character B takes to move several inches
character A is at least several dozen times faster than character B
he is at least several dozen times faster
you: that's baseless lolz
mind explaining why it is, then?
because i said so isn't a reason
a literal no u, it's the exact opposite
and the rest is bullshit
Last edited:
- 70
- 18
Not responding to a wall of text again, I'll just state it here; You didn't debunk anything. You just asserted the same baseless assumptions, made false equivalences, composition fallacy, another argument from ignorance and question begged the whole time. We'll vc about this on discord and I'll make you concede on this, I won't say this again. Stop ignoring my pings on discord.the fastest and the strongest is the intepretation being argued for in case you're wondering, as if we could be speaking about any other intepretation right now given the context
he slashed his head off before he could react and was moving fast enough for gyokko to be unable to preceive him, i have no idea what mind games you're playing here but that's a textbook definition blitz in demon slayer giyu did the same to rui and tengen did the same to daki ie he slashed her head off and she didn't even know it, unless you have some counterarguments or evidence that this isn't a blitz then it is
you linked the same thing twice, that isn't a demonstration of dulled senses that's a demonstration of the superior speed the opponent has, muichiro was indeed confusing gyokko with unpredictable movements as he was slowing down and immediately accelerating thus giving the illusion that he wasn't even there and the fact that he couldn't follow his movements at all demonstrates muichiro's speed is too much for his reaction time, and thus, you get it, his speed, so what happened next?
be got blitzed because he couldn't see the sword coming from in front of him, if you want to prove he has dull senses when all yo have is a statement from muichiro whose whole shtick up to then was to mock gyokko then you might as well have nothing substantial
do you then acknowledge that no matter how good his senses become he can never dodge nor react to kokushibo's attakcs exept maybe the first one?
the sequence of events are in this order (presumably as you never even bothered to give any shred of evidence anyone besides tanjiro can see the future besides giving me one panel where sanemi dodges an attack that already started it before it comes out and saying "this proves everything")
assuming base sanemi = marked muichiro who is several dozen times slower than kokushibo by sheer basic math that he managed to move several meters befor muichiro's already in motion sword that's inches away from his neck touches him (and do note since you're missing the entire point that he is currently holding back, and before you try any shenanigans it's holding back in the sens that he isn't going all out 100% from the get go, not that he is holding back against sanemi more than he did against muichiro as there is no substantial evidence or information for anyone to come to that conclusion and thus it should be ignored and not bleieved no matter who is saying it unless he/she is providing sufficient enough reasoning for that to be the case so in the hypothetical scenario where base sanemi = marked muichiro in speed, he is still several dozen times faster than sanemi is while holding back )
i use so many words to drive a single point home, now let's go to further analysis
attack prepares to be unleashes -> sanemi sees the future 1000 attacks coming before they do -> he dodges the first one -> secon attack in coming, from the prior vision he had, he already knows about it -> he tries to do-oops,he is dead
there is one thing you need to get across your head is once the first attack is over sanemi would have to dodge the second attack that will alread be in it's way towards him and with basic physics of speed = distance /time, the attack that's several dozen times faster will cover so much more distance in a much smalled timeframe that even if sanemi knew about where the attack was going to land as it was moving towards him, he will never be able to dodge it without the necessary speed required as such a speed difference implies being able to throw at least 10 attacks in the time it will take him to dodge 1, even if he predicts one and aimdodges, and even if he predicts the following thousands of attacks, the argument is he physically can not move in time to avoid them all still holds up (the orginal damn argument)
aimdodging an attack that much faster is fine, i never said anything about that part, the issue that flew over your head doing it in repeated succession over the course of an entire god damn fight, there needs to be a huge gap between every attack for this to be possible and there wasn't, "he has better senses" is no way shape or form an explanation for doing the phyiscally impossible you're claiming he did as if literally even one of the upccoming attacks occupy the space he is in, he is getting hit, he physically can not dodge anything even if he knows what's coming.
in order for this feat to transpire the way you are trying to claim, it would imply sanemi is not several dozen times slower/equal to mared sanemi and is in fact that relative to the speed koushibo was using then before he amps it and gets serious, otherwise he can't physically dodge shit even if he predicted it was coming.
to say it again, whatever bs you're claiming is Impossible, given the speed difference established sanemi can not physically move his body in the time it takes him to land a hit, you keep ignoring that, it would be like if someone put a gun to your head, pulled the trigger, fired the bullet, and you managed to dodge the supersonic bullet by moving your body despite the fact it was mere inches away from your skull, and the bullet already fired, it doesn't matter if you know it's coming or not, you physically cannot dodge it, and if you DO dodge it, then by direct correlation you are relative it in speed
i will not be taking my chances, let's explain this again
you see what's happening here? how they're exchanging so many blows?
even if sanemi was able to see the future and start attacking before koku's attacks even started, he moves body from Point A to Point B over a certain distance within a certain timeframe if koku was several dozen times faster than he is he can still unleash several dozen more blows in the time it will take him to unleash one so even if sanemi, for whatever reason, had better senses than someone more skilled than he is the panel above implies he is relative to the speed kokushibo was using against marked muichiro and thus scales far higher than marked muichiro in speed even in base
i legititmately hope this will never be brought up again because it's stupid, and prove sanemi has precog while you're at it
same thing here, i explained above everything that needs to be said, i will take this there
ah yes, i'm using logic, how very bad of me but let's see the bs you have written here now
in the panel you sent the breath of the moon attack was already in preperation and was being initiated, this isn't dodging an attack before it happens, this is dodging it as it's already being prepared to be launched, which makes your argument that much worse, in the very translation you provided it says a mysterious presence rose from the demon's sword i have no idea what the context is here but it doesn't change the fact that the presence he felt was from the sword, meaning it wasn't there before, meaning something changed and thus made some form of "presence" rise from the sword, by process of elimination the only presence thing that changed in the panel you sent is koku was preparing an attack and was in the process of launching it, sanemi felt something and jumped out of the way, meaning he jumped out of the way from an attack that already started and thus he scales to that in speed, no bullshit i see the future senses here, this actively works against, and the last thing i'm doing is cherry picking anything, i'm using logic, you're using pseudo logic, that's all there is to it
that literally means the same thing as this
who is cherry picking now huh, he wouldn't survive the the distorted attacks if he didn't have as much experience, same interpretations as mine, to stop your shenannigans once again, it went like this
the shape of the attacks i tought i dodged aren't the same, they're distorted -> i couldn't have survived if my senses hadn't been honed from long experience
what do you think the order in which these was said implies?
the other translations futher supports this intepretation, and the fan translation has a far better record of making things right that it wouldn't even matter anyways
with this, all your "evidence" about precog turns to ashes
and being shallow implies being lacking compared to them, not sure how that helps you
the aim dodging bs has been dealt with, please next time try to think before saying anything, i won't deal with the rest of the unecessary aim dodging bs
lmfao indeed, that says the same thing with different words
the fact that you keep insinsting it's because of his senses when it's literally because of speed is beyond me
do you not comprehend what happened here?
look at the bottom left corner of the second link, as the sword was inches away from his neck kokushibo stole it and impaled muichiro with it, assuming muichiro by the point the sword was inches away from koku's neck knew what will happen, pray do tell what do you think will happen then
do you think that
A muichiro gets blitzed anyways
or
B he now magically makes up for the speed difference and will be able to hold his ground
yes, because his speed sucked and he could in no way shape or form react to or even fight someone who can move several meters in the time his moving swords inches away from his neck can move several inches, i already elaborated why this is stupid
already dealt with this bs
you mean in the sparring match where they weren't fighting to the death, prove they're actually relative, periode, the manga says otherwise and even outside the fact that those were sparring matches and i repeat sparring matches (in which to even have a point you have to prove they were going all out )filler bullshit is far less credible than the manga, if you want to argue they're relative despite what i showed use logic and prove it
you also can't prove there isn't a wooden tea pot floating in outer space in the void far away from our galaxy, there are no scenes or evidence to show it, and therefore it shouldn't be belived that he did, if you think it should be beleived and want us to take you seriously cough up the evidence and show where he did
that is presupposing kokushibo didn't multiply his speed times a billion to deal with sanemi, which is something you'd have to prove for your claims to work
see? i speak bullshit 2, same as above, there are no scenes or evidence to show it, and therefore it shouldn't be belived, if you think it should be beleived and want us to take you seriously cough up the evidence and show where he did
i also love the fact that you completely ignored these
what's that? kokushibo was....increasing his speed agaisnt sanemi? and it says the same in both translations so you can't wiggle your way out of this?
koku is suprised that he is even keeping up?
whatever could be the reason for this i wonder
those scenes show nothing, one is sanemi screaming in rage and attacking and gyomie attacking after him, the other shows the same, gyomei could have been doing anything in that time, he was literally off screen, you know what actually proves something and makes a point directly to your face?
this
no matter how interpret this scene, it proves beyond the shadows of a doubt that gyomei is faster, there are no other possible interpretations for this, if gyomei didn't switch the attack's trajectory sanemi would have lost both of his arms
sanemi got gutted like a fish, sanemi did nowhere near as good as gyomei when he fought and he also didn't come close to shattering koku's sword and he also wouldn't have done it, no one will bleive that, and they have no reason to beleive it if you don't cough up the evidence
irrelevant because you said so?
being faster implies you would do better, if anything gyomei literally did the same thing koku did to muichiro by jumping out of the way of his sword when it was this close
your stupid senses shenanigans won't work here (that you've yet to prove and that i already dealt with the only semblance of "evidence" you have)
kokushibo's already moving sword is close to his neck
the same sword that sanemi couldn't even blink when facing unless he wanted to die
my ahh, lmao, where is your evidence?
cough it up, prove that the hsashira have the some imaginary precog senses
he is blind, the **** are you on about, he can't see anything to begin with, and even then, he was wondering what the hell changed and how kokushibo managed to hit both of them when they weren't even in his range, not only that koku was behind a bunch of smoke, i have no idea how this is supposed to help you
you're presuposing that he has precog, you're not proving it, he managed to react to what he could "see" coming, and that's all there was to it, if you want to say it was his senses here, cough up the evidence that implies it "this supports my position if you interpret it like this" isn't evidence, it's cherry picking and catching on straws
and even if we have it your way, let's put yp these assumptions
A gyomei put his chain in front of sanemi
B sanemi couldn't process what he did in time to ask him why
A+B gyomei blitzed sanemi
if yout want to imply they have the same speed and reaction time without their all mighty yet to be proven precog then as soon as sanemi saw the chains he would have known something was wrong and braced for it as they were there before koku's attack was instead of standing there like an idiot and let the incoming attack attack hit him, if he had the precog you were hyping him to have he would have seen how gyomei's chain was about to be in front of him and deduce something out of it then react, he would have seen the attack coming before it did and react to it like so you amazingly claim he has the ability to, or did he mysteriously lose it here?
pray do tell, why couldn't sanemi react to the oncoming attack, but gyomei could, despite them both having precog, and both having the same speed?
why couldn't he see gyomei's chainmail coming in front of him and change the trajectory of the incoming attack, then react to it instead and instead got blitzed?
you're putting under the flimsy rug of "better future seeing senses", start explaining and elaborating what they mean, and do note, prove they even have any precog to begin with
with clear, consice evidence
occam's razor implies gyomei had better rection time and speed, that's the actual safer assumption that requires no assumptions and simple deduction skills, not that he magically has precog he was never shown to have that you poofed into existence, if you want to state that's the simpler option them having precog should be a 100% undeniable phenomenon, not one you pulled out of nowhere
for the umpteenth time, prove that they have precog
prove that without the shadow of a doubt that they have precog as you're assuming they do
character A moves several meters in time character B takes to move several inches
character A is at least several dozen times faster than character B
he is at least several dozen times faster
you: that's baseless lolz
mind explaining why it is, then?
because i said so isn't a reason
a literal no u, it's the exact opposite
and the rest is bullshit
Like you're actually a low tier debater and all you're doing is not even understanding your own position. You literally contradicted yourself in your own goddamn sentence you linked lmfao. You're pathetic bro.
Last edited:
HelloThere1089
He/Him- 3,287
- 4,018
Aww. It was getting spicy. Anyways what are yalls estimate on how many episodes the anime will have EOS
- 4,445
- 4,509
Hey, that's a no. Disagree is fine, but insulting like that isn't. You've been warned
- 1,411
- 988
you mean the infinity castle arc, or the count till sunrize one or both?
because i can see akaza's fight being 3 to 4 ep long, doma being 2 to 3, zenitsu vs kaigaku being 2 at most and koku's fight being like 4 or maybe 5?
and writing 2750 words took 2 hours, so thanks for the like lol, is there anything there that sees contradictory or flawed because i'm a bit curious tbh, it seems good enough
- 70
- 18
Yea yea.
HelloThere1089
He/Him- 3,287
- 4,018
I meant the end of series. How many episodes do you think there are till Muzan get's his ass clapped and Tanjiro becomes crippled.
I didn't notice anything contradictory. But I'm not that knowledgeable about the verse so....
But I did get my initial questions answer so thanks for that.
- 1,411
- 988
well assuming the HTA finishes, like, 23 more episoes?
something like that
no problem, glad to be of help
well i'll go do something else for now, see ya later
Epyriel
He/Him- 252
- 329
Looked all good to me!
Although it is probably for the best it didn’t continue. You are never going to convince someone who has already ingrained enough mental acrobatics to rank Gyutaro above Kokushibo and Akaza below Daki.
- 70
- 18
It wasn't good.
Presupposing that this was mental acrobatics when everything I said to you was backed up by the source material and narrative. Also certain that this is just some kind of appeal to the stone.
- 1,411
- 988
well saying daki scales higher tha akaza when she was blitzed by season 2 zenitsu implies season 2 zenitsu can blitz akaza, if it anything it literally implies season 2 zenitsu and inosuke can kill akaza at that point, and an enraged tanjiro who manhandled daki can no diff akaza
tanjiro got a mark, multiple power ups and enhanced his skill all the way till infinity castle arc, and he still did worse than giyu, as he visibly struggled to deal with akaza's casual unamped attacks, got blitzed and would have died if it wasn't for giyu saving him, it's evident that when Akaza spends even a little more effort, he can strike faster than Tanjiro can use Fake Rainbow, despite this, at the same speed, giyu is still fast enough to appear and slash through the arm without a Mark even when it was that close to hitting tanjiro, the narrative literally has a ranking system in place, and they even state a pillar can't 1 v 1 an uppermoon, tengen would have lost miserably if tanjiro wasn't there to support him as well
if anything, by those standards marked tanjiro after multiples boosts is inferior to season 2 enranged tanjiro as well as season 2 zenitsy and inosuke because of how terribly he did against uppermoon 3, who is supposedly weaker than daki, that's the least thing i'd say is "consistent with the narrative" tbh, since appearently the season 2 trio are already strong enough to kill uppermoon 3 and below on their own
but there is no convincing you anyways, this is honestly beyond me, it's the first time i've met someone with that position and i've argued a lot lol
tanjiro got a mark, multiple power ups and enhanced his skill all the way till infinity castle arc, and he still did worse than giyu, as he visibly struggled to deal with akaza's casual unamped attacks, got blitzed and would have died if it wasn't for giyu saving him, it's evident that when Akaza spends even a little more effort, he can strike faster than Tanjiro can use Fake Rainbow, despite this, at the same speed, giyu is still fast enough to appear and slash through the arm without a Mark even when it was that close to hitting tanjiro, the narrative literally has a ranking system in place, and they even state a pillar can't 1 v 1 an uppermoon, tengen would have lost miserably if tanjiro wasn't there to support him as well
if anything, by those standards marked tanjiro after multiples boosts is inferior to season 2 enranged tanjiro as well as season 2 zenitsy and inosuke because of how terribly he did against uppermoon 3, who is supposedly weaker than daki, that's the least thing i'd say is "consistent with the narrative" tbh, since appearently the season 2 trio are already strong enough to kill uppermoon 3 and below on their own
but there is no convincing you anyways, this is honestly beyond me, it's the first time i've met someone with that position and i've argued a lot lol
- 70
- 18
I don't think there's anything wrong with Godspeed Zen scaling above Akaza. He's consistently portrayed as insanely fast. With the novel stating Zenitsu's Thunder Breathing itself has the best instant acceleration among all breathing, him being constantly above Tanjiro and Inosuke etc. The only reason they might not beat Akaza is due to Zen not using Godspeed in character at the start of a battle.
None of those points really suggest that version of Tanjiro scales above an unquantifiable, but very large, anger amped Tanjiro. They can't be connected through scaling chains. The narrative itself goes against the kizuki ranking and it can change at any given time, prior to the battle Daki was stated to have grown far stronger, makes sense due to consuming humans, but she'd receive blood on top due to Muzan giving blood when he sees improvement as stated. So UM6 can't be backscaled to any other UM. The other UM's obviously grow too hence they can't be connected to others via ranking either. Feats would be the best way of finding how they do against each other.
Narrative is just feats and statements so using all of them would also include the whole getting stronger, surpassing previous lvls, proposing a blood battle and climb up the ranks statements. (It did state that Akaza actually proposed a blood battle to Koku after/in that UM meeting but he died before he could challenge Koku, similar to the Flute-Demon failing to receive his eye number yet be LM lvl) I don't think the ETDA trio could win against Akaza unless Zenitsu actually uses Godspeed since I think that's their win-con. (I think it's kind of funny how Gotouge didn't write Zenitsu being present during most battles Tanjiro and co struggled with due to most likely knowing the fight will be less interesting as Zenitsu just blitzes or vastly helps in these fights.)
- 5,122
- 2,627
How about the fact that Akaza's neck would be far harder to cut than Daki's and that Zenitsu needed Inosuke's help in the end? I'd also argue that not immediately using Godspeed does have its reasons for Zenitsu.
I recall reading that Akaza did fight a blood battle against Kokushibo in the past and lost.
Last edited:
- 70
- 18
This is more-so due to the nature of Daki's neck function relying on speed to be cut. Also I'm not certain if his neck is even harder than Daki's neck. Zen and Inosuke did cut through the neck but they struggled with the obi's bendy-nature. Zen just uses Godspeed as a last-resort attack but yea it does screw up his legs.
Apparently that was a mistranslation and it actually says Koku would've absorbed anyone so rude (?) but was happy when he proposed a blood battle. The novel also suggests he did propose one as when Koku gets mad about his death it elaborates on what blood battles are and that Akaza had proposed one to him but doesn't say that he fought him.
- 5,122
- 2,627
Speed and power tend to correlate even in fiction and there is no doubt that Akaza is massively superior to Daki, so even without any special tricks his neck should also be above hers. Keep in mind that ultimately Tanjiro needed the Mark to cut through Gyutaro's neck while he could do it to Daki without it. He, Zenitsu and Inosuke were still much weaker than Tengen who could cut off Daki's head effortlessly and deemed her too weak to be an Upper Moon. All three of them in general were presumably still below the Pillars to a degree that necessitated them getting trained by them during the Pillar Training.
I recall there being a statement in databook but I wouldn't know anything about it being mistranslated.
- 70
- 18
To me, Speed = Power only applies when stated or implied. An example I could give is Gyomei showing far greater AP feats than Sanemi and co despite being relative/slower than them. I also don't agree with Akaza > Daki/Gyutaro, one being the ranking is flawed and doesn't take power-ups into consideration so I don't see how he'd scale above and two the anime also states she smells stronger than any demon he's seen and closer to Muzan than anyone, including Akaza who he saw already. The notion that bendy/wriggly is kind of supported by the sentient-obi negating Inosuke's attack when she wriggles/bends but gets harmed when she doesn't do it. So I'd figure when Daki doesn't have the neck obi active it'd be easier to cut compared to when it's activated.
He wasn't necessarily marked but he wasn't necessarily base either. He just sliced it but it got defeated by the rubbery-nature when he was unquantifiable amped and I don't see Akaza scaling to anger amped Tanjiro either.
I don't agree with this argument. I think Tengen lacks any knowledge on how strong an UM is supposed to be. She was also kind of weakened during that Tengen encounter through Nezuko's BDA. The databook also just kind of hints towards her having UM lvl regeneration at least so she should be UM tier, not to mention the whole killing 7 hashira stuff.
This one is the viz version and this the fan-made version.
Also off topic but where do you send calcs to get evaluated?
Epyriel
He/Him- 252
- 329
Where is that said? In episode 6 he just says she smells ‘ominous’ but not much more than that.
Not to mention even if that was true, that could easily be explained away by Tanjiro referring to only those he fought, or it simply being matter that Daki met with Muzan more recently than Akaza and that is what Tanjiro is smelling.
Because on its own that is a pretty weak argument to put UM6 on top of the Upper Moons despite pretty much all evidence to the contrary, from the hierarchy itself (which is very stable amongst the upper ranks unlike the constantly shifting lower ranks), to both Obanai and Tengen stating they are the weakest, to Tanjiro’s progression itself (from being able to go toe to toe with Daki and decapitate Gyutaro, to being unable to even move when confronted with Zohakuten despite being stronger in the next arc), to the supremacy statements of Gyomei and Sanemi as the top 2 Hashira and pretty much every character commenting Kokushibo is incomparable to the rest of the upper ranks.
Because on its own that is a pretty weak argument to put UM6 on top of the Upper Moons despite pretty much all evidence to the contrary, from the hierarchy itself (which is very stable amongst the upper ranks unlike the constantly shifting lower ranks), to both Obanai and Tengen stating they are the weakest, to Tanjiro’s progression itself (from being able to go toe to toe with Daki and decapitate Gyutaro, to being unable to even move when confronted with Zohakuten despite being stronger in the next arc), to the supremacy statements of Gyomei and Sanemi as the top 2 Hashira and pretty much every character commenting Kokushibo is incomparable to the rest of the upper ranks.
You can make a post here to put in a request for a calc group member to take a look: https://vsbattles.com/threads/calculation-evaluations-new-forum.107523/
- 5,122
- 2,627
The Upper Moons were around for centuries because of how strong they are and the current generation of Hashiras is supposed to be the strongest since Yoriichi's, so previous Hashiras would at least on average be considerably weaker. I doubt that Tengen would classify Daki as stronger than Rengoku who was killed by Akaza and he was aware of Rengoku having been killed by an Upper Moon. Daki desired to have a higher rank than Upper Moon 6, so while I can see Gyutaro being content with his position Daki would have replaced a higher-ranking Upper Moon if she thought she could get away with it.
Last edited:
- 70
- 18
This one. Although now that I google- reverse searched it. It's referring to Susamaru lmfao. I got this statement from someone and saved it only to now realize it's not even for Daki... No matter though since I think it was just supportive evidence.
Naw, I'm certain even if it was Daki it would still refer to power as Urokodaki say's that a stronger demon can be indicated by smell which doesn't rlly make sense if the smell can change depending on meeting Muzan.
I don't think it's a weak argument. The whole growing stronger thing is just applicable to the whole hierarchy, as it's fundamental in how they rank up, despite being ranked lower originally. Iirc there's an implication suggesting Gyokko was atleast UM5 when Douma was UM6 and he overtook him either through challenging Gyokko or a far higher ranked unknown kizuki. This also applies to any kizuki in history.
I mean citing two sources that have like zero knowledge isn't really that good. Obanai has like absolute zero info regarding this as he came in late to the party and he doesn't know whetever Daki & Gyutaro scale above their position as he never fought them head on all he knows is their number. Tengen's is also really bad as he's fighting a nerfed Daki and he derives this conclusion from the fact that she holds her head in her hands which ries back into nerfed state. He also would be straight up wrong by saying she's not UM lvl cuz otherwise she'd be like LM1 as per hierarchy which is just wrong as she kills 7 "strong" hashira as Muzan states and LM's fail to kill hashira since a very long time.
The problem here is that he was going toe to toe with either a holding back BH Daki in base or toe to toe with WH Daki in a unquantifiable anger amp state which doesn't really backscale to any other Tanjiro version. As well as using a different utilization of the mark's amp (+ the possibility of Gyutaro not even having recovered from the poison as it still takes a long while for him to regen his arm, something he should do almost instantaneous) Vs Gyutaro it was noticeably bigger and was stated to be a 100x amp while Vs UM4 it's vastly smaller and was stated to be a 10x amp. Kind of a big difference here.
Koku lacks the knowledge to accurately know about any hashira's power present (aside from Mui) or know about the power of retired/dead hashira he never met. He just made a guess.
For the Koku incomparable statements. I don't recall any statement of such. If you mean Muichiro glazing Koku I'm certain he just means he appears to look more elegant and majestic which is true cuz the others all got weird clothing compared to some ancient samurai's unmatched drip not necessarily power. All other statements I know off that say he's the strongest in databooks and such are mistranslations. One databook entry doesn't even call him the strongest among Muzan's direct command but rather calls him one of the strongest.
Appreciate it. I had some issues with current demon slayer calcs and how they're using wrong methods to kind of reduce the actual value.
- 70
- 18
They probably are, yet I don't think the other hashira's generation is necessarily that weak compared to them. It's stated the hashira utilize the Yorrichi doll as part of the hashira training since ancient times so I'd suspect they have to be on that lvl for them to even use it regularly during yearly hashira-trainings (Wouldn't make sense for them to keep using it if it just squad-wipes them all). Such an opponent that can 1vs1 Muichiro and have Tanjiro only scale above via hashira-tier senses
All he said was that even Rengoku loses to an UM but even then he just knows he was killed by one, neither do we know Tengen's knowledge on Rengoku's power so he can still be weaker than Daki. Also said that to a nerfed Daki that's she's too weak to be one, which is straight up wrong as well. Daki fighting 7 hashira, regardless if they're from weaker generations, that'd still classify as UM tier. Tengen kinda had weird reasoning based off her losing her head, it's like saying Gyokko lost his head so he ain't an UM.
Sure, she did want to rank up however she just recently got more blood and ate humans 2 days prior so she could've had the intention, we don't know. What we do know is that blood battles and rank upgrades take a while to do, flute-demon etc - as well as her not having knowledge on how strong the other UM's are thus for safety she'd gain more power when in actuality she's already stronger, yet is just unaware of that. Her feats are better as well.
Last edited:
- 70
- 18
It's primarily debatable due to the demon hierarchy being a mid ranking system.Why is Akaza > Daki/Gyutaro debatable?
- 5,122
- 2,627
The Hashira Daki fought were stated to be "strong"? I don't recall that kind of statement. The Hashira Training is something that could only happen due to decreased demon activity. It's doubtful that it ever was yearly. Muzan is also the one who considered Gyutaro the true Upper Moon 6 and Daki a hindrance, so any praise he directly said to her cannot necessarily be taken at face value.
Technically Hashira only need to be capable of defeating Lower Moons, so they don't need to be on Upper Moon level right away and the story made it very clear that the Upper Moons were individually stronger than Hashiras for centuries. Tengen was there when Rengoku became a Hashira, clearly grew to respect him a lot and he knew Rengoku's father, so that's an extremely unlikely assumption you're making. Tengen said that she was too weak based on how easily he decapitated her and he clearly didn't gain any more respect for her strength after Gyutaro healed her.
She probably did have future plans and was definitely working towards it but there is no way Muzan wouldn't have known how strong she is compared to the others.
- 70
- 18
Yea, when Muzan visits he's like you killed 7 strong hashira.
That's just the Hashira Training for all corps members. Hashira Training for the hashira happens a few times yearly through Yoriichi doll being used and is kind of confirmed by Shinobu saying she can't participate in the Hashira Training this time due to crafting poison and revenge planning.
I'm not certain about him considering Gyutaro the true UM6, he just talked about him more because he had more expectations of him and had more potential which is true cuz he's stronger, skilled and more analytical making him more valuable in a battle while also thinking Daki was a hindrance in comparison to someone as strong as Gyutaro, so this wouldn't really suggest she's that weak, just weaker and less valuable than Gyutaro. I don't think Muzan would lie about her defeating 7 strong hashira as he makes other statements that are truthful, an example would be him stating she ate more humans as well as that she's more beautiful than anyone else which is true as she's the only one who can make a grown man faint based off her beautiful appearance. So he doesn't really lie to her here.
Hashira also need to be able to fight UM's as Giyu states that damaging and keeping up with a UM is a sign of being equal to hashira tier, a drunk retired Shinjuro is capable of blitzing Tanjiro who had previously kept up with a Muzan blood amped LM1. Urokodaki in a far older and retired state keeping up with a constantly growing in strength EOS Nezuko who had somewhat kept up with Hantengu, Kanae fighting Douma a few years back and deducing some of his abilities while also being stated more talented than Shinobu/implied stronger than Shinobu.
He just saw Rengoku man-handle Sanemi but he didn't saw the fight with the kizuki. I'm not even sure if he received information about which demon he actually fought. Also idk why Rengoku's father would matter. Either way, this is a far weaker version than MT Rengoku.
This is still kinda ignoring how Daki was still affected by Nezuko's BDA and it kind of makes it easier to decapitate. It would still tie back into the Gyokko argument. I don't think Tengen ever makes a comment on how she's not UM lvl after she gets healed. He just says weaker sister which is true as she's weaker than Gyutaro.
Muzan probably knows how strong she is but it's not like it matters as he doesn't promote Rui despite the guy being his favorite among all demons and him being the strongest LM at that time. The existence of blood battle also kind of goes against this.
Last edited:
speedster352
He/Him- 17,544
- 1,788
- Eyepatch vs King of Demons -
Speed Equalized; Both High 8-C keys (Demon Form Muzan and Eyepatch Kaneki); Kaneki - At least 7,3 Tons of TNT; Muzan - At least 2 Tons of TNT; Muzan knows who ghouls are. Kaneki knows who demons are. Place of battle: Streets of the 12th district. 4 hours before dawn.
- 5,122
- 2,627
I think I can think of quite a number of things that I want to say but I guess I'll be making a post for that tomorrow.
- 5,122
- 2,627
There are quite a number of other things I need or want to do, so I'll be postponing this another day.
Similar threads
