[Demon Slayer] Massive Upgrade

[Nehz_XZX]

Why exactly should sound be faster than sound?

You may as well ask why humans should be faster than humanly possible. If scaling indicates that it is faster than the real thing, then that is fine because it is fiction unless contradicted.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Have you checked all of the lightning and sound users who are way faster than lightning and sound on the wiki?

No

 

[Demon_Lord18]

That is probably the single most debunked anti-feat in existence.

Mitsuri was mid-air and carried into an AOE attack by her own momentum with nothing to kick off of to avoid it. Yet reacts to the attack and braces to minimize the damage. Not to mention the fact that demons have auras that make the air feel much heavier and sound waves travel faster in such mediums. Not to mention the fact it isn’t even a guarantee that it is a sound wave as opposed to a continuous emission of supersonic pressure waves which would have much the same effect. Not to mention it could also be a magical effect entirely of unknown speed produced by a magical blood demon art from a literal demon.

It makes sense

 

[Nehz_XZX]

No

Then you have a lot of research to do. There are a lot of RPGs with lightning attacks that you might want to check out. Anime also doesn't lack that kind of thing.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Then you have a lot of research to do. There are a lot of RPGs with lightning attacks that you might want to check out. Anime also doesn't lack that kind of thing.

RPGs

 

[Nehz_XZX]

RPGs

You just need to check out the profiles. If you don't even know about lightning users that are faster than lightning, then you clearly lack basic knowledge regarding the topic. There might be some characters from literature as well.

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

Are you saying that a character who can't dodge sound waves is faster than sound?

Literally Mitsuri dodges a sound attack very close to her in some sections before, it would be very contradictory say it wouldn't be faster.

 

[Digital_Franz]

RPGs

Just Sasuke's Kirin is faster than real lightning. Currently I'm working on a Novel where the MC can turn into a ray of light. Someone can say he's SoL except in that state he performed feats over 7 trillion c. It all depends on the context imo. I don't really like using other verses as examples.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Just Sasuke's Kirin is faster than real lightning. Currently I'm working on a Novel where the MC can turn into a ray of light. Someone can say he's SoL except in that state he performed feats over 7 trillion c. It all depends on the context imo.

Sasuke is an anime and manga character. He isn't from an RPG.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Sasuke is an anime and manga character. He isn't from an RPG.

Just to support your argument and example. Since he doesn't seem to know much about RPGs, I just gave him an example he knows well, which is a manga character.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Just to support your argument and example. Since he doesn't seem to know much about RPGs, I just gave him an example he knows well, which is a manga character.

He doesn't seem to know much about high speed verses in general to me.

 

[Digital_Franz]

He doesn't seem to know much about high speed verses in general to me.

Maybe. Well he has time to learn in this case.

 

[KnyRaizn]

That's not how we analyze whether a quote is hyperbole or not, otherwise Temari would be Universal on the wiki.

That's not how we analyze whether a quote is hyperbole or not, otherwise Temari would be Universal on the wiki.

And it's not because Temari is contradicted since High tier have lower feats, and tbh I don't know how that statement is made, if it's made by a character it's most likely a Hyperbole. There doesn't necessarily have to be a contradiction in the sentence but during the work, and in Naruto there is, and in that case I don't see why it's wrong. Saying "otherwise A would be" then? There are no problems, but like all Hyperbole, that statement is contradicted, and most likely as any truthful Hyperbole should do, it is made very clear. Then actually on the wiki yes, with consistency the statements are not considered as Hyperbole. Then even if it was not written in the wiki it does not mean anything, here we are literally talking about how a Hyperbole works.

 

[KnyRaizn]

If you are arguing that all instances of sound used with supernatural powers have to be sound speed and not any faster, then a lot of downgrades are needed. I've seen that kind of argument before and my opinion hasn't changed since then. Do I need to remind someone of Kyogai and how far above the Pillars would be to the Tanjiro from back then?

This has been addressed many times. Tanjiro can dodge them and it wouldn't make sense for a Hashira to not surpass Sound Speed when Sound Speed is surpassed chapters ago., so a Hashira automatically does, also Mitsuri was in mid-air and literally she numb her muscles before the sound wave started or most likely was starting. Also yes Zohakuten can amp up the attacks, literally it is also stated that his power is superior. And for example, in the anime, we see that Zohakuten seems to put blood into the attack to enhance it. we see the same thing in the manga

 

[GTsek]

I don't know much Japanese so I did some research. First of all I don't agree with what you say, everything would be Hyperbolic then. Every statement in fiction would be, the kanji "電光石火" means Lightning speed as you can see so what you say is wrong. "Lightning Speed" no one denies that it is used in a Hyperbolic way, but first of all you have to see the context behind everything. First of all, the Databook is a book where the characteristics of the characters are explained in detail, as the author himself specifies. Then if we go and see, the Hyperbolas are not at all right to use in books, as they can be encyclopedias etc, and the Databook is an encyclopedia.

Moving on, with your reasoning you would be telling me that every statement is Hyperbolic ignoring every possibility that there is in fiction. First of all you can't know what the author means, so since there are two basic possibilities let's start from 50% and now let's go into more detail. As I said before you would be ignoring every possibility that there is in fiction, "Lightning Speed" literally means speed of lightning. IRL is used to actually express a thing that goes very fast, but in fiction it is different. That is, what makes the expression "That car goes at the speed of lightning" Hyperbolic, basically it is the impossibility at a physical level that that car can go at MSH+. Now if we analyze in fiction, where characters have already shown feats above the sound etc, there is no longer a physics of restriction, since that thing is already contradicted, therefore there is no longer the basic contradiction, which occurs in Hyperbole regarding speed, such as IRL. Because basically the Hyperbole is a contradiction, since by exaggerating, it goes to say things that contradict themselves. Now what I mean by this, I'm saying that since there are no contradictions, rather, supporting feats, i.e. outspeed lightning and they dodge them, there is even consistency. Also because it is logical that a non-hashira, goes as fast as lightning, and an Hashira who is massively faster outspeeds lightning.

Lol, no. That's not how we analyze hyperbole. The statement itself is hyperbole because the kanji used do not literally mean the speed of lightning. Japanese Wikipedia itself says that it is a METAPHOR, that is, it is not a literal statement. There are literal ways of saying that something is moving at the speed of lightning, and this is not one of them.

電光石火 - Wikipedia

ja.m.wikipedia.org

 

[KnyRaizn]

Lol, no. That's not how we analyze hyperbole. The statement itself is hyperbole because the kanji used do not literally mean the speed of lightning. Japanese Wikipedia itself says that it is a METAPHOR, that is, it is not a literal statement. There are literal ways of saying that something is moving at the speed of lightning, and this is not one of them.

電光石火 - Wikipedia

ja.m.wikipedia.org

In fiction according to your logic it would all be a Hyperbole, I don't know if you get it. Wikipedia says it's a metaphor because Lightning Speed IRL is used as a metaphor... But then basically it contradicts itself, you're telling me that those Kanji that indicate the speed of lightning can't be used to express the speed of lightning lol, congratulations for debunking the grammar. In fiction this doesn't apply, obviously if you say 電光石火の車 (car with lightning speed) obviously it's a Hyperbole since a car can't go at Lightning Speed. What you're saying doesn't make sense, it's like in the English language, Lightning Speed means Speed of lightning. Saying that a car runs with lightning speed, grammatically means that that car is running at the speed of lightning, that makes it metaphorical or Hyperbolic is the contradiction at the physics level. It's simply a rhetorical figure that is applied in certain moments. and cases, since in fiction there is the possibility, unless there are contradictions, you can't say it is regardless, and from the context I gave in the message, it is unlikely that it is. About the last thing you said, no... it doesn't make sense to say this an author can express himself in any way he wants and Lightning Speed literally means speed of lightning. You also need to add the Kanji でんこうせっか, which is different from what you are saying. The sentence is でんこうせっか電光石火, which literally means lightning speed in one sense. Also in Japanese the meaning changes from context to context, so you have to select Kanji by Kanji and put them into the sentence appropriately.

 

[GTsek]

In fiction according to your logic it would all be a Hyperbole, I don't know if you get it. Wikipedia says it's a metaphor because Lightning Speed IRL is used as a metaphor... But then basically it contradicts itself, you're telling me that those Kanji that indicate the speed of lightning can't be used to express the speed of lightning lol, congratulations for debunking the grammar. In fiction this doesn't apply, obviously if you say 電光石火の車 (car with lightning speed) obviously it's a Hyperbole since a car can't go at Lightning Speed. What you're saying doesn't make sense, it's like in the English language, Lightning Speed means Speed of lightning. Saying that a car runs with lightning speed, grammatically means that that car is running at the speed of lightning, that makes it metaphorical or Hyperbolic is the contradiction at the physics level. It's simply a rhetorical figure that is applied in certain moments. and cases, since in fiction there is the possibility, unless there are contradictions, you can't say it is regardless, and from the context I gave in the message, it is unlikely that it is. About the last thing you said, no... it doesn't make sense to say this an author can express himself in any way he wants and Lightning Speed literally means speed of lightning. You also need to add the Kanji でんこうせっか, which is different from what you are saying. The sentence is でんこうせっか電光石火, which literally means lightning speed in one sense. Also in Japanese the meaning changes from context to context, so you have to select Kanji by Kanji and put them into the sentence appropriately.

You may seem new, but that's not how we do things on this site. The kanji present in the statement are ancient in Chinese and Japanese literature and do not mean literal speed of something. It's just a metaphorical way of expressing an event that happened quickly. Understand, metaphor is a figure of speech in which the name of one thing is transferred to another with which it is possible to establish a relationship of comparison. For comparison to occur, there must be similar semantic elements (related to meaning) between the words or expressions in question. For example, the phrase "She is an open book", it is obvious that the person is not literally a book and is not open, it is just a figure of speech to say that she is easy to read, that it is easy to see through her. "See through her" is also an example, you don't literally see through a person, it's just an expression. In Japanese it's the same thing, "Denkosseka" is a way for you to compare an event to lightning, because according to human perception, both are somewhat "instantaneous" or "extremely fast", it is not a literal way of describing an event.

 

[Tengouk]

the premise is a speculation on statments without any real evidence. The entire explanation assumes that these statments are only valid because one is in a fictional context. This isnt a valid justification, fiction is still literature, which includes rhetorical or non-literal language, its an expressive technique. In "conclusion", you set aside an interpretation because it is inconvenient for you, without a valid justification.

We assume something is literal unless proven otherwise. We don't assume something as hyperbole non-literal. To assume it's hyperbole is a positive claim that requires further proof than just assuming it is literal, which would be the baseline assumption of any statement. The interpretation that it's hyperbole is unsupported and is nowhere near an equal interpretation to the interpretation of assuming it is literal.

As you are on the side of the positive claim, the argument cannot move from this point, until you prove that the statmant should be taken literally.

That's not how it works. I proved my positive. Now, anyone claiming it's hyperbole is now on the positive. Already did that maybe read.

It would seem to me quite ambiguous,not only in terms of feat but also in terms of narrative. Zenitsu practically at the beginning of the series has feats comparable to Douma and kanao and his speed up to the Mugen arc wouldnt have increased since the statmants represent him with the same speed. Your explanation is quite confusing

There's no narrative that goes against Zen being MHS+. You just said that for no reason. What makes Zen, Douma and Kanao relative. Lightning speed would just be baseline 440,000 m/s. Lightning can go up to Sub Rel or higher. Not to mention, nothing suggests Kanao and Douma cap at the baseline lightning speed assumption and can be higher.

Not reacting,doesnt necessarily mean blizt. Zenitsu walked in front of Inosuke, again ruling out simple outpiecing, although normally a person at close range can hit you without you moving without being subsonic or something like that.

There's no indication of an outpace. By definition a blitz is unable to react. He wasn't shown nor implied to be capable of reacting therefore blitz is the most likely assumption. Occam'z razor helps here too. Don't know what the topic at hand has to do with this but you do you.

the scan you provided contextualises the 'surpass' of thunder breathing. kaigaku becoming a demon increased his physical performance by improving his breathing.
I havent seen statment such as 'this breath is a technique that takes you to X speed' or otherwise such a sentence, where the technique is explained take the user to X speed.

It increased his physical ability by applying BDA to his TB which would equate to the basic fundamental of BDA/blood increasing speed. You just said a whole lot of nothing.

following this, its currently quite inconclusive, if it can be considered a starting point

Alr.

 

[Tengouk]

I don't know if it was mentioned in the topic, but in Japanese, the expression "電光石火" (denkosekka) is a metaphor used to describe something that happens extremely quickly. Although the individual words "電光" (denkō) mean "lightning" and "石火" (sekka) mean "spark of stone," the combined expression is used metaphorically to convey the idea of swiftness or speed, similar to "the speed of lightning" or a "spark" or "in a flash" or "in an instant" and not to describe these phenomena literally. It's hyperbole. There isn't even a kanji for speed in the sentence.

This doesn't set the ultimate within fiction where it can be utilized literal. It's one of the only lightning speed comparisons that could be used. Extremely quickly applies to lightning speed regardless so this doesn't debunk anything. It's just utilized in RL hence hyperbolic. If you wanna use dictionary's - Dictionary's don't set definitions. Also why does there need to be kanji for speed in there?

 

[Tengouk]

You may seem new, but that's not how we do things on this site. The kanji present in the statement are ancient in Chinese and Japanese literature and do not mean literal speed of something. It's just a metaphorical way of expressing an event that happened quickly.

Why does this apply to DS, where Zen a user of lightning and who absorbed pretty much everything similar to lightning, or fiction?

Understand, metaphor is a figure of speech in which the name of one thing is transferred to another with which it is possible to establish a relationship of comparison. For comparison to occur, there must be similar semantic elements (related to meaning) between the words or expressions in question. For example, the phrase "She is an open book", it is obvious that the person is not literally a book and is not open, it is just a figure of speech to say that she is easy to read, that it is easy to see through her.

Why is this a metaphor in this instance.

"See through her" is also an example, you don't literally see through a person, it's just an expression. In Japanese it's the same thing, "Denkosseka" is a way for you to compare an event to lightning, because according to human perception, both are somewhat "instantaneous" or "extremely fast", it is not a literal way of describing an event.

You can see through in fiction. Why is it not literally in this context. You keep appealing to this notion and repeat yourself lol.

 

[Tengouk]

Lol, no. That's not how we analyze hyperbole. The statement itself is hyperbole because the kanji used do not literally mean the speed of lightning. Japanese Wikipedia itself says that it is a METAPHOR, that is, it is not a literal statement. There are literal ways of saying that something is moving at the speed of lightning, and this is not one of them.

Genetic fallacy is crazy and the author choose to utilize this particular kanji for lightning speed he doesn't need to use a different kanji when both can mean the same thing.

 

[GTsek]

Dude, you seem to be relatively new to this site, so understand that this is not how we work. Arguments like "this is fiction so it can be used literally" are ridiculous, i can't say that the phrase "my wife's smile is like sunshine" It's literal just because it's in fiction, there's no such thing as a literal metaphor, it's either literal or it's a metaphor. These kanji are not in literal form, It's not a question of "why would it be a metaphor in this instance?", the question is that these kanji are ALWAYS a metaphor. Just understand, "Denkosseka" is not literal, I proved it.

 

[Tengouk]

Dude, you seem to be relatively new to this site, so understand that this is not how we work.

Is that your favorite phrase? Even if I'm new, what has that to do with the topic at hand. If you're gonna act this entitled go grab me a rule or thread stating this.

Arguments like "this is fiction so it can be used literally" are ridiculous, i can't say that the phrase "my wife's smile is like sunshine" It's literal just because it's in fiction, there's no such thing as a literal metaphor, it's either literal or it's a metaphor.

Don't see anything wrong with stating her smile is like a sunshine. It's a simile, comparing her smile to the brightness of a sunlight. You're tripping if you think a fiction character can't have a insane bright smile This ain't even applying to Zenitsu.

These kanji are not in literal form, It's not a question of "why would it be a metaphor in this instance?", the question is that these kanji are ALWAYS a metaphor. Just understand, "Denkosseka" is not literal, I proved it.

Genetic fallacy, keep repeating these fallacious arguments.

 

[GTsek]

You don't even try to refute it. Anyway, I've already proven that it's a metaphor. Now we just have to wait for the staff to analyze it.

 

[Tengouk]

You don't even try to refute it. Anyway, I've already proven that it's a metaphor. Now we just have to wait for the staff to analyze it.

I did refute it. I said it doesn't set the ultimate, that dictionary's don't set definitions and that your argument is a genetic fallacy. Nothing suggests this applies in Zen's case. Also metaphor doesn't even help your point btw. A metaphor can be literal and still point towards him actually being lightning speed, hope you know that.

 

[Robo432343]

i agree with this crt

 

[KnyRaizn]

Dude, you seem to be relatively new to this site, so understand that this is not how we work. Arguments like "this is fiction so it can be used literally" are ridiculous, i can't say that the phrase "my wife's smile is like sunshine" It's literal just because it's in fiction, there's no such thing as a literal metaphor, it's either literal or it's a metaphor. These kanji are not in literal form, It's not a question of "why would it be a metaphor in this instance?", the question is that these kanji are ALWAYS a metaphor. Just understand, "Denkosseka" is not literal, I proved it.

No absolutely not. First of all you have to learn the difference between metaphors and Hyperbole, metaphors include As or Like very often, and saying that your wife is like the dawn, is a metaphor since we take it in a context where you are the one saying it. You are the one comparing your wife to the dawn, and it could be because you like her or stuff like this. Your word in comparison to the narration is inferior and is different, and a character who exclaims something precisely, is most likely different and is a metaphor or a Hyperbole, since that character has no competence or yardstick. The author's word is truth and basically what he says is true unless it is contradicted. Going back to before, what you say is still wrong, you are meanwhile saying that the Hyperbole in fiction is implemented in the same way that in itself is wrong. Literally if it were like that there wouldn't even be a dedicated page in this Wiki, where they literally say that with consistency it is most likely not Hyperbolic, this already partially contradicts your argument now I'm going to re-explain the point again. The Kanji you selected do not mean that. The Kanji means "Lightning Speed" that is the speed of lightning. The Hyperbole you are talking about needs to be contextualized, in a sentence Lightning Speed IRL will always, always mean an exaggeration that is a Hyperbole because IRL you can't go to that speed. Saying that a new NASA spacecraft runs at MSH speed will not be considered Hyperbolic and do you know why? Because NASA has already developed something that goes faster than Lightning or close to that speed, so unless there are contradictions it will be considered true, because NASA has good authority, so most likely the statement will be true. So imagine the author's word which is absolute, this is considered literal and true, since the verse has already proven certain things. So what makes a statement Hyperbolic is the context, we have given all the context to make sure it is not Hyperbolic, and the Wiki itself says that with consistency the statement will most likely not be taken as Hyperbolic, so no, you cannot say that it is because it is not so.

 

[Syncornize]

We assume something is literal unless proven otherwise. We don't assume something as hyperbole non-literal. To assume it's hyperbole is a positive claim that requires further proof than just assuming it is literal, which would be the baseline assumption of any statement. The interpretation that it's hyperbole is unsupported and is nowhere near an equal interpretation to the interpretation of assuming it is literal.

here you have just confirmed that you are assuming a positivity,giving as a certainty a point without any supporting evidence (every assertion must be supported). Something even without contradiction may not be valid, a purely literal context may not present a contradiction in terms of feats.

I think you misunderstood what I said (leaving out the straw man) I never said it was necessarily hyperbole, but that you don't consider other interpretations, to validate this, I even gave examples that, even without them, my point remained the most apt conclusion

That's not how it works. I proved my positive. Now, anyone claiming it's hyperbole is now on the positive. Already did that maybe read.

Saying "its valid because it hasnt contradictions" is not a point or a demonstration, you continue to skip the burden of proof by shifting the borden of proof. Assuming something as truth is not proof. The burden of proof is on proving positivity over negativity, as the latter doesnt have to be proved.

There's no narrative that goes against Zen being MHS+. You just said that for no reason. What makes Zen, Douma and Kanao relative. Lightning speed would just be baseline 440,000 m/s. Lightning can go up to Sub Rel or higher. Not to mention, nothing suggests Kanao and Douma cap at the baseline lightning speed assumption and can be higher.

according to the wiki rules it is considered a basic speed, otherwise as you are doing, you would speculate on the speed, creating a huge mess.

Those speeds are not normally reached by lightning but by a return phenomenon, it is a conjunction of several things, it is not the lightning itself that creates this phenomenon of such high speed and I do not see any evidence to support feats on this phenomenon.

exactly as before you only consider the interpretation that is most convenient for you, skipping the burden of proof, assuming that your interpretation is true without any evidence.

(I dont see evidence on the negative part, so its false)
(kanao holding back in a mortal fight with a character who is stronger than her gives consistency)

It increased his physical ability by applying BDA to his TB which would equate to the basic fundamental of BDA/blood increasing speed. You just said a whole lot of nothing.

I just said that the sentence doesn't say something like "he exceeded the speed of lightning" but "he brought the technique to a higher level by strengthening himself"
the technique doesn't have a defined speed currently, so it means everything and nothing. As I told you before, you are making a hodgepodge of too many things

There's no indication of an outpace. By definition a blitz is unable to react. He wasn't shown nor implied to be capable of reacting therefore blitz is the most likely assumption. Occam'z razor helps here too. Don't know what the topic at hand has to do with this but you do you.

I don't know if you can consider a blitz on two characters that don't have this gap in speed. Zenitsu is at most faster in godspeed and not normally.the occam razors is not on your side, I think you misinterpreted it. Excluding superfluous things and excluding the entire dynamism of the action under discussion are 2 different things

If you go to look on this wiki the definition of blitz is a total outclass of speed, the example used is man vs bullet. What zenitsu did is a humanly possible action, you don't need a huge gap to do it, this thing is feasible even not off-guard.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Bump