[Demon Slayer] Massive Upgrade

[CloverDragon03]

Nope that's not how it works. You explained it and I debunked said explanation by giving actual reasoning instead of just claiming it's my burden.

You can keep claiming that, but ultimately you're trying to get staff to accept your thread

So? I don't care.

You're debating on VSBW so you kinda have to care

Are you gonna ignore what I just stated? I told you to prove your claim "anything else is calc stack". Go fetch me a scan saying this or hitchen's razor might have to clear your argument. Justify the claim that my arguments are fallacious and burden shifting. So far I've debunked everything you claimed.

That's... literally just our standards. Like, look up "Calc Stacking" on the wiki itself and you'll see just that. You can't use a previously calculated speed or reaction time in another calculation. If someone's Supersonic via scaling to someone else who scales from a calc, then they get blitzed by someone, you can't use Supersonic reaction time to calculate that feat.

You haven't "debunked" anything no matter how much you try to assert that, if anything I just get the feeling you simply don't like our standards

Are you gonna prove as to why it's not used. Give me a thread since I literally asked within these few minutes of proof and never received such. It's crazy how you jump from hyperbole to outlier once you get confronted by an actual high speed calc. You're funny. Either way, positive claim too. Why is it an outlier. Go ahead and prove it. I'll be waiting.

I'm ignoring the possibility of it being an outlier for now for the sake of discussion, just saying

As for the Muichiro calc, a Calc Group Member most recently commented on even the lowest end of Mach 112 being too high. So there you go

Why is he slower than lightning when all he does is cover the distance to Genya and push him. He's not trynna do all kinds of movements during this timeframe. It goes against your cherry picked evidence, btw.

Because the lightning traveled more distance than he did in the same time. That's the basis of the calc

Can't actually defend their claims, constantly fails burden of proof, burden switching, cherry picking but insists on this dishonest stance.

Sure, you can keep this stance doesn't mean your reasonings aren't completely fallacious and dishonest.

Feel free to claim as you wish, but ultimately, you're trying to get staff to accept this revision

 

[Tengouk]

Kimetsu no Yaiba: Muichiro slicing 10,000 flying killer fish in an instant

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thanks. However, all I see is this one guy saying method 1 is better and still gives the "calc stack" for the reason as to why method 2 is unreliable which is what's in question here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Thanks. However, all I see is this one guy saying method 1 is better and still gives the "calc stack" for the reason as to why method 2 is unreliable which is what's in question here.

For clarification, he says that Method 1's timeframe is better, but he's saying that 10 fish being cut per slice is still too little. This would mean more fish are being cut per slice, meaning less slices are being done, thus making for a lower distance traveled and thus a lower speed

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Thanks. However, all I see is this one guy saying method 1 is better and still gives the "calc stack" for the reason as to why method 2 is unreliable which is what's in question here.

"Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats."

In other words, method 2 goes against the rules

 

[Tengouk]

You can keep claiming that, but ultimately you're trying to get staff to accept your thread

Already got like far more agreements than disagreements.

You're debating on VSBW so you kinda have to care

Nope. I don't need to care about some pilot thing.

That's... literally just our standards. Like, look up "Calc Stacking" on the wiki itself and you'll see just that.

It's crazy how you make a claim and then say I'll have to search for it. You're the one who has to grab the exact statement on the pages. I'm used to you burden switching atp. I already looked through the pages once and I still fail to find y'alls supposed claim.

You can't use a previously calculated speed or reaction time in another calculation. If someone's Supersonic via scaling to someone else who scales from a calc, then they get blitzed by someone, you can't use Supersonic reaction time to calculate that feat.

Holy.... I never did this, that's literally the most insane false equivalence. Is this y'alls best statement on this site? First of all, the SOS scaling doesn't come from a calculation, rendering your entire thing null. It comes from a straight up stand-alone statement, no calculation done here. None of what I proposed is anywhere close to what was stated in the calc stack page.

You haven't "debunked" anything no matter how much you try to assert that, if anything I just get the feeling you simply don't like our standards

You mean the standards you failed to present throughout multiple posts and don't even understand basic burdens. Cherry pick via using the worst calc for the high tiers, baselessly claim hyperbole and outlier once presented via actual decent evidence, mind you the insane burden switching you tried on me.

I'm ignoring the possibility of it being an outlier for now for the sake of discussion, just saying

Possibility =/= Probability. Thought we all collectively learned that thing by now.

As for the Muichiro calc, a Calc Group Member most recently commented on even the lowest end of Mach 112 being too high. So there you go

"A calc group member most recently commeneted on even the lowest end of mach 112 being too high" That's not what he said. He never said Mach 112 is too high. Not to mention, he also relies on the same thing that you wrongly tried to apply to my statement, that's CRAZY.

Because the lightning traveled more distance than he did in the same time. That's the basis of the calc

He travelled less cuz he never wanted to move allat. He pushed Genya away. This doesn't suggest he's below lightning. It just suggests it's higher than what you claimed is the best feat for the top tiers.

Feel free to claim as you wish, but ultimately, you're trying to get staff to accept this revision

Don't worry I most likely will. Maybe with a better staff member who actually reads the pages and knows basic burdens.

 

[Tengouk]

"Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.

While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats."

In other words, method 2 goes against the rules

That's not the same at all. False equivalence again. Your copy&pasted text literally says a rule of thumb, meaning based on experience of other feats without being accurately or certain that this applies to the same instance and THEN uses said estimation for calcs. That's not remotely similar to what method 2 is doing.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

That's not the same at all. False equivalence again.

Are you serious?

Your copy&pasted text literally says a rule of thumb, meaning based on experience of other feats without being accurately or certain that this applies to the same instance and THEN uses said estimation for calcs. That's not remotely similar to what method 2 is doing.

Spamming attacks stated to be at the speed of sound is done by low-mid tier characters such as Kyogai, but with sound speed it would be impossible for the fish to come close to chasing or overwhelming a Pillar-level opponent as Gyokko is expecting, as shown by these examples: Example 1 - Example 2 - Example 3 - Example 4 - Example 5. Gyokko was even made aware previously that Muichiro is faster than the average Pillar, so Gyokko wasn't under the impression that Muichiro was a fodder. Hence, sonic speed for the fish would be a reasonable low-ball since we know the fish are significantly faster than that by an unknown magnitude.

This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.
While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.

Are you reading the same calculation as me?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Already got like far more agreements than disagreements..

The only agreements that matter for passing or rejecting a thread are those of Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats. Yes, that also means my vote doesn't count, in case you're wondering

Nope. I don't need to care about some pilot thing.

I thought you would since that's why the Hypersonic+ calc used to be Massively Hypersonic. Am I missing something?

It's crazy how you make a claim and then say I'll have to search for it. You're the one who has to grab the exact statement on the pages. I'm used to you burden switching atp. I already looked through the pages once and I still fail to find y'alls supposed claim.

I was on mobile so my access to stuff wasn't as easy as on PC, so I thought it'd be sufficient if I gave you the page name for ease of access, but fair enough. I don't consider this to be burden switching, though. "Lightning-fast" being literal is the crux of your revision, so proving it's literal would be something you need to do, the way I see it

Holy.... I never did this, that's literally the most insane false equivalence. Is this y'alls best statement on this site? First of all, the SOS scaling doesn't come from a calculation, rendering your entire thing null. It comes from a straight up stand-alone statement, no calculation done here. None of what I proposed is anywhere close to what was stated in the calc stack page.

I was giving an example. I wasn't sure what you were trying to suggest when you said the Muzan calc is lowballed. I figured you were suggesting to use a lower timeframe, but the most common ones are either rejected (1/220 seconds) or calc stacking (timeframe from speed of sound)

If you're suggesting to use statements about the speed of sound, I should note that you can't convert a stated speed to an implied timeframe to use in a calc. This was discussed further here.

You mean the standards you failed to present throughout multiple posts and don't even understand basic burdens. Cherry pick via using the worst calc for the high tiers, baselessly claim hyperbole and outlier once presented via actual decent evidence, mind you the insane burden switching you tried on me.

I admittedly wasn't aware of the MHS calcs, since the Muichiro one is in contention and the Tanjiro one was quite literally just introduced to me today

"Lightning-fast" is also not only a hyperbole in Demon Slayer. It's a frequent one used to denote high speed in text-based media. I also will admit that while I wasn't trying to definitively claim something was an outlier (it's too early to make that judgment), I was too hasty in even bringing up that possibility.

As far as outliers go, the one that does concern me is Zenitsu being MHS+ in the first arc he appears in. Demon Slayer's best feats don't come about until the latter half of the series, and said feats are lower than lightning speed

"A calc group member most recently commeneted on even the lowest end of mach 112 being too high" That's not what he said. He never said Mach 112 is too high. Not to mention, he also relies on the same thing that you wrongly tried to apply to my statement, that's CRAZY.

I think I explained this better in my response afterwards. Hopefully that helps

He travelled less cuz he never wanted to move allat. He pushed Genya away. This doesn't suggest he's below lightning. It just suggests it's higher than what you claimed is the best feat for the top tiers.

Assuming the calc's completely valid, it would be higher than that feat, yes. I wasn't aware of that calc to begin with. But, I take issue with the "he didn't need to move all that" response, because that suggests he was actively restricting his movement despite moving to save Genya from the attack. I don't see why he'd restrict his movement in such a case.

Don't worry I most likely will. Maybe with a better staff member who actually reads the pages and knows basic burdens.

I don't think all that's necessary

 

[Tengouk]

Are you serious?

Yes, I am?

Are you reading the same calculation as me?

None of this is the same as the page text you sent me. The page says it's hiding calculation by using a rule of thumb to place a character dodging a bullet at supersonic which didn't provably happen to that extent as well since S=D/T. He elaborated and stated that, Kyogai, who's not even close to LM tier, has said stated speed and Gyokko, an UM, who obviously would scale to said speed via upscaling from a non-kizuki tier demon's attack speed. This ain't nowhere near a rule of thumb.

P1: Person A dodges lightning.
P2: Person A is now lightning speed.
C: Calc stacking, rule of thumb.

VS

P1: Person A has a stated speed.
P2: Person B scales above said speed.
C: No calc stacking, no rule of thumb.

There's no need for a calculation as its speed is verbatim stated. It's not done PER rule of thumb but rather via a direct statement. It would be a rule of thumb if he claimed Tanjiro dodged a sound attack thus he's supersonic and then state Gyokko's fish > Tanjiro. He's not doing this hence this doesn't apply.

 

[Passersby]

As far as outliers go, the one that does concern me is Zenitsu being MHS+ in the first arc he appears in. Demon Slayer's best feats don't come about until the latter half of the series, and said feats are lower than lightning speed

I have about zero stakes in this argument, but ehh, well

There is this

Demon Slayer - Tanjiro's Flowing Dance Recalc

vsbattles.fandom.com

Seems like snail end was accepted, although granted this feat is due to a speed boost derived from a breath technique, tanjiro wasn't that fast in his base state,

 

[Tengouk]

The only agreements that matter for passing or rejecting a thread are those of Thread Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats. Yes, that also means my vote doesn't count, in case you're wondering

Exactly. So we'll get someone with an accurate view of what is stated on pages. Potentially move or wake up this kind of dead thread with maybe accepted MHS+ calcs.

I thought you would since that's why the Hypersonic+ calc used to be Massively Hypersonic. Am I missing something?

That's not my reasoning.

I was on mobile so my access to stuff wasn't as easy as on PC, so I thought it'd be sufficient if I gave you the page name for ease of access, but fair enough. I don't consider this to be burden switching, though. "Lightning-fast" being literal is the crux of your revision, so proving it's literal would be something you need to do, the way I see it

I'm on mobile too and it ain't that hard. Annoying but not hard. It is if you state that I have to search it up it'd be kind of burden switching. No, if I present evidence for said lightning speed Zenitsu and you respond with hyperbole it'd be your burden. Any decent debater would tell you the exact same. Not to mention I don't see as to why it wouldn't be literal. He's a thunder/lightning breath user, has every property lightning has and lastly has 5 different lightning speed statements. I'm certain this is meant to be perceived as literal.

I was giving an example. I wasn't sure what you were trying to suggest when you said the Muzan calc is lowballed. I figured you were suggesting to use a lower timeframe, but the most common ones are either rejected (1/220 seconds) or calc stacking (timeframe from speed of sound)

Muzan's calc is lowballed via assuming the LM, which are among the 12 strongest demons, caps at 0.08 sec rather than it being capable of being higher. Be it scaling above SOS or lightning speed. Muzan simply upscales and is certainly higher than hypersonic.

If you're suggesting to use statements about the speed of sound, I should note that you can't convert a stated speed to an implied timeframe to use in a calc. This was discussed further here.

They all seem to agree with me and even you yourself agreed here with all of my takes. They all seem to collectively agree that it's case by case basis. I don't see the issue with stating the fish scale above Kyogai's attacks thus we convert the SOS timeframe upon the distance of them approaching Muichiro.

I admittedly wasn't aware of the MHS calcs, since the Muichiro one is in contention and the Tanjiro one was quite literally just introduced to me today

That's fine ig.

"Lightning-fast" is also not only a hyperbole in Demon Slayer. It's a frequent one used to denote high speed in text-based media. I also will admit that while I wasn't trying to definitively claim something was an outlier (it's too early to make that judgment), I was too hasty in even bringing up that possibility.

The only thing I'm aware of now is the Lightning McQueen thing and I still don't agree that this is hyperbole or referencing their speed unless someone actually knows definitive scaling of the verse and can present anti-feats for the position. Other than that, I know about zero text-based media using lightning-fast/lightning speed as some sort of hyperbolic simile. The only way to compare something to lightning is to use these types of simile. So for Gotouge to state he's lightning speed they kind of have to use such similes.

As far as outliers go, the one that does concern me is Zenitsu being MHS+ in the first arc he appears in. Demon Slayer's best feats don't come about until the latter half of the series, and said feats are lower than lightning speed

I don't see the issue with Zen being MHS+ in the very first arc and with a special move at that. Zen in base can consistently keep up with characters that are shown relative to Tanjiro and Inosuke, then falls asleep and uses a speed-based technique to blitz characters that go relative with Tanjiro and Inosuke. He outscales pretty much any of the low tiers during the first like 40 arcs (The only one I'm unsure about is Molten Spider Dad). The only time he actually provably gets surpassed is by Kanao during Rehabilitation Training via him failing to catch her and being stated unparalled compared to them which would encompass TB. He loses so much to the point of him giving up even with the additional motivation boost and access to TB. However, the trio then surpasses/rivals Kanao and begin to keep up with Enmu. So at best the only ones who scale to said MHS+ are the top tiers, hashira, all kizuki and all of Kamaboko Squad from Rehabilitation Training and onward. Which would make sense based on Sekido/Zohakuten using lightning-based BDA Post-Rehabilitation Training which can be amped unquantifiable by blood.

I think I explained this better in my response afterwards. Hopefully that helps

I read it now. I'll still have disagree with the SOS issue as well as the amount of slashes done by Muichiro. They aren't really that densely compacted, as they're close to a katana's blade in length and seem to have quite a distance between them. Even in the anime he seems to cut most of them one by one except in the latter half. Cutting far more than 10 fishes per swing seems weird.

Assuming the calc's completely valid, it would be higher than that feat, yes. I wasn't aware of that calc to begin with. But, I take issue with the "he didn't need to move all that" response, because that suggests he was actively restricting his movement despite moving to save Genya from the attack. I don't see why he'd restrict his movement in such a case.

I was suggesting that in that timeframe all he had to do is push him and pull the arm back which means after that attack he doesn't have to necessarily move at full speed anymore as he already accomplished what he did, saving Genya from the attack.

I don't think all that's necessary

Well, kind of want this accepted.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, kind of want this accepted.

I meant how you responded in particular, but yeah, I'll call some more staff

@KingTempest @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X My starting lineup

 

[Tengouk]

I meant how you responded in particular, but yeah, I'll call some more staff

@KingTempest @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Planck69 @Maverick_Zero_X My starting lineup

Oh lol. Was a bit annoyed since almost everyone I show these statements all quickly jump onto hyperbole and outlier, my bad.

I thought about waiting though since the other mods likely will just jump to the hyperbole stuff too. Y'know gather some calcs for support.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Yes, I am?

None of this is the same as the page text you sent me. The page says it's hiding calculation by using a rule of thumb to place a character dodging a bullet at supersonic which didn't provably happen to that extent as well since S=D/T. He elaborated and stated that, Kyogai, who's not even close to LM tier, has said stated speed and Gyokko, an UM, who obviously would scale to said speed via upscaling from a non-kizuki tier demon's attack speed. This ain't nowhere near a rule of thumb.

P1: Person A dodges lightning.
P2: Person A is now lightning speed.
C: Calc stacking, rule of thumb.

VS

P1: Person A has a stated speed.
P2: Person B scales above said speed.
C: No calc stacking, no rule of thumb.

You said the same thing, but in a different way and you think they are different things.
Example 1:

P1: Person A dodges a bolt of lightning.
P2: Person B was faster than person A.
P3: Person B is now at lightning speed.
P4: I use lightning speed in a calculation involving character B
C: Hidden calculation

Example 2:

P1: Person A has a declared speed.
P2: Person B scales above that speed (probably by feats)
P3: Person B is at lightning speed
P4: I use lightning speed in a calculation involving character B
C: Hidden calculation, after all, character B's speed came from character A and not from his own declaration.

There's no need for a calculation as its speed is verbatim stated. It's not done PER rule of thumb but rather via a direct statement. It would be a rule of thumb if he claimed Tanjiro dodged a sound attack thus he's supersonic and then state Gyokko's fish > Tanjiro. He's not doing this hence this doesn't apply.

Going back to the rule, it says: It should be borne in mind that the unwritten calculation is only ignored because it is trivial, but it is still the justification for the ranking. Therefore, calculus stacking will still be a problem for such achievements.
You said the same thing, but in a different way and you think they are different things.

 

[Tengouk]

You said the same thing, but in a different way and you think they are different things.
Example 1:

P1: Person A dodges a bolt of lightning.
P2: Person B was faster than person A.
P3: Person B is now at lightning speed.
P4: I use lightning speed in a calculation involving character B
C: Hidden calculation

Example 2:

P1: Person A has a declared speed.
P2: Person B scales above that speed (probably by feats)
P3: Person B is at lightning speed
P4: I use lightning speed in a calculation involving character B
C: Hidden calculation, after all, character B's speed came from character A and not from his own declaration.

Going back to the rule, it says: It should be borne in mind that the unwritten calculation is only ignored because it is trivial, but it is still the justification for the ranking. Therefore, calculus stacking will still be a problem for such achievements.
You said the same thing, but in a different way and you think they are different things.

That's not true one is stated, the other is a hidden calculation. Statements are not calc stacking. This thread even proves what I stated. Here.