Demon Slayer (Kimetsu no Yaiba) - Breath of Discussion: 5th Form

[Nehz_XZX]

Yea, when Muzan visits he's like you killed 7 strong hashira.

That's just the Hashira Training for all corps members. Hashira Training for the hashira happens a few times yearly through Yoriichi doll being used and is kind of confirmed by Shinobu saying she can't participate in the Hashira Training this time due to crafting poison and revenge planning.

I'm not certain about him considering Gyutaro the true UM6, he just talked about him more because he had more expectations of him and had more potential which is true cuz he's stronger, skilled and more analytical making him more valuable in a battle while also thinking Daki was a hindrance in comparison to someone as strong as Gyutaro, so this wouldn't really suggest she's that weak, just weaker and less valuable than Gyutaro. I don't think Muzan would lie about her defeating 7 strong hashira as he makes other statements that are truthful, an example would be him stating she ate more humans as well as that she's more beautiful than anyone else which is true as she's the only one who can make a grown man faint based off her beautiful appearance. So he doesn't really lie to her here.

Hashira also need to be able to fight UM's as Giyu states that damaging and keeping up with a UM is a sign of being equal to hashira tier, a drunk retired Shinjuro is capable of blitzing Tanjiro who had previously kept up with a Muzan blood amped LM1. Urokodaki in a far older and retired state keeping up with a constantly growing in strength EOS Nezuko who had somewhat kept up with Hantengu, Kanae fighting Douma a few years back and deducing some of his abilities while also being stated more talented than Shinobu/implied stronger than Shinobu.

He just saw Rengoku man-handle Sanemi but he didn't saw the fight with the kizuki. I'm not even sure if he received information about which demon he actually fought. Also idk why Rengoku's father would matter. Either way, this is a far weaker version than MT Rengoku.

This is still kinda ignoring how Daki was still affected by Nezuko's BDA and it kind of makes it easier to decapitate. It would still tie back into the Gyokko argument. I don't think Tengen ever makes a comment on how she's not UM lvl after she gets healed. He just says weaker sister which is true as she's weaker than Gyutaro.
Muzan probably knows how strong she is but it's not like it matters as he doesn't promote Rui despite the guy being his favorite among all demons and him being the strongest LM at that time. The existence of blood battle also kind of goes against this.

The translations I looked up for the anime and manga just said Hashiras with no adjectives. Could you give a link?

Wasn't the Hashira Training a suggestion by Gyomei with the Hashiras accepting and implementing it? That would indicate it being a new idea, so if there was previously some sort of training involving all of the Hashira, then it presumably happened in a different form. I'm not sure what the exact meaning or wording in this case is supposed to be but what I do know is that any other instance of a Hashira Training hasn't been mentioned, described or shown in any of the material I've seen as far as I remember. Kotetsu hasn't acted like as if he has regularly seen a Hashira fight the Yoriichi Type Zero either. The possibility of Tengen and Rengoku having been involved in training together would kinda go against your idea of Tengen not knowing how strong Rengoku is.

It's less about Muzan outright lying to her and more him acting like as if he likes and respects her far more than he actually does. We also have Gyutaro saying that she killed seven Hashiras as well with him having killed fifteen, so there is no ambiguity here with the statements. Muzan says after Gyutaro and Daki's deaths that Gyutaro could have won if he fought without Daki and it does look like as if that's in fact right, so it's not just her being a hindrance in comparison but actually being a hindrance in Gyutaro's fight against the demon slayers.

Enmu has said that he wasn't able to go all out yet at the end and Tanjiro needed the Hinokami Kagura and Inosuke's help to behead him. Tanjiro only started managing to use the Hinokami Kagura for more than a short burst in the Entertainment District arc. When Tanjiro fought that decoy body he even wondered if Enmu was weaker than Rui. If Hashiras were automatically within the vicinity of an Upper Moon's level of power, then those who qualify would quite easily deal with Lower Moons they fight. Rengoku did struggle for a bit with his Lower Moon immediately before becoming a Hashira and then worked his way up until the fight against Akaza, so that alone shows that there is a bit of variance with Hashiras. It should also be noted that both Shinjuro and Urokodaki had their entire demon slayer careers behind them which they spent getting stronger and survived all that time unlike many others, so them being quite strong because of that is rather obvious independently of their retirement or current status. It should also be noted that it doesn't look like as if any of the Hashiras from the current generation fought Upper Moons prior to encountering them in the manga and you said that you think that Tengen lacks knowledge of how strong an Upper Moon is supposed to be. Since defeating Lower Moons qualifies you for becoming a Hashira keeping up with the superior Upper Moons in any capacity kinda qualifies you by default.

This is to emphasize how he got to know Rengoku and that we see clear indicators of their relationship developing and therefore them having spent time together which are factors which decrease the chance of Tengen not knowing how strong Rengoku is. We've seen with Giyu and Shinobu and also with Iguro and Sanemi that Hashira can end up working together in missions which is also a factor against the idea. There is also that armwrestling ranking list and us knowing that they've been involved in group activities like trying to make Giyu smile. We also got Extraordinary Perception that allows characters to sense how strong someone is to a certain extent on all of the Kimetsu no Yaiba profiles, so if Tengen failed to get any idea of Rengoku's strength despite all of that, then that would be kind of stupid.

Didn't Gyutaro heal her? Hantengu's emotions weren't exactly permanently weakened by Nezuko's fire and Daki said that her with Gyutaro's eye was her true power which would indicate that she was at least at that time in peak condition or close to it. I recall that Rui was weaker than he could have been due to giving his fake family their powers and strength, so his potential was kind of compromised compared to Enmu. The Blood Battle can allow demons to showcase more than raw power and allow them to display what they can do when pushed into a corner, so that wouldn't necessarily imply that Muzan is entirely passive in regards to the ranking of his demons and he has been shown to take action with recruiting to or expelling demons from the Kizuki.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Damn, he delivered.

 

[Tengouk]

The translations I looked up for the anime and manga just said Hashiras with no adjectives. Could you give a link?

Which translation did you use? I'm curious. Viz or manganelo?

Wasn't the Hashira Training a suggestion by Gyomei with the Hashiras accepting and implementing it?

No. As I stated Shinobu suggests that it was indeed an idea before-hand and he just suggested they do this with all the corps members, when usually Hashira Training is just done with the y'know hashira as the name suggests which ties into the Yorrichi argument. Doesn't necessarily mean it's an entirely new idea, just changed to fit the current events.

That would indicate it being a new idea, so if there was previously some sort of training involving all of the Hashira, then it presumably happened in a different form. I'm not sure what the exact meaning or wording in this case is supposed to be but what I do know is that any other instance of a Hashira Training hasn't been mentioned, described or shown in any of the material I've seen as far as I remember. Kotetsu hasn't acted like as if he has regularly seen a Hashira fight the Yoriichi Type Zero either. The possibility of Tengen and Rengoku having been involved in training together would kinda go against your idea of Tengen not knowing how strong Rengoku is.

Yes. The proposal is just in reference to changing it from just hashira-only to all corps members. There has been mentioned hashira-trainings as I just mentioned in previous replies. Shinobu is 100% talking like it happened before and Yorrichi doll wasn't used in the all corps members version thus it's most likely it was used for hashira-only. (Possibly due to how difficult the doll is and they struggle with just basic tasks) Kotetsu says right at the start that it's used for combat training. Obviously this means for corps members as there's no reason to use it for swordsmiths as they don't fight they just work on swords. Kotetsu does know about it? He's aware that Muichiro wants to train with it as well as how long it takes. Mitsuri also wasn't confused about the Yorrichi doll, knew the position of the doll to bring food to Muichiro and Kotetsu, who were repairing it, which further reinforces that hashira use it as training consistently. Only reason Kotetsu has limited information is because he just recently has to work on the doll when previously his father worked on it.

I don't think Tengen and Rengoku need to have seen each other as the Hashira Training has multiple steps. So, there's no reason to think they have seen each other's abilities.

It's less about Muzan outright lying to her and more him acting like as if he likes and respects her far more than he actually does. We also have Gyutaro saying that she killed seven Hashiras as well with him having killed fifteen, so there is no ambiguity here with the statements.

I still don't see how this changes anything. Muzan does this with all of his demons. He doesn't like them but acts like he does. He creates them for his own selfish goals. This wouldn't change the truthfulness of her defeating these 7 strong hashira. Yes, so Gyutaro and Muzan support this hence there's truth value. I see no reason to believe they weren't all actually strong hashira (despite already being hashira which have to be naturally strong for their title).

Muzan says after Gyutaro and Daki's deaths that Gyutaro could have won if he fought without Daki and it does look like as if that's in fact right, so it's not just her being a hindrance in comparison but actually being a hindrance in Gyutaro's fight against the demon slayers.

He doesn't say that, he says if he had fought from the start so instead of Tanjiro meeting a nerfed Daki he would've met Gyutaro which is an easy kill and then goes onto fight Tengen + Zen and Inosuke later (two of which get easily killed and poisoned as they're Tanjiro's rivals). He also reprimands Gyutaro here more than Daki by stating he had too much humanity and should've poisoned them at the start. She's also objectively not a hindrance in that fight as he literally gives him shared vision which is a big buff, lol. Literally the main reason they struggled alongside the poison. She's a hindrance in terms of that she fights first and he appears out of her when she calls him which is actually just in reference to Gyutaro, doesn't make her weak.

Enmu has said that he wasn't able to go all out yet at the end and Tanjiro needed the Hinokami Kagura and Inosuke's help to behead him.

Enmu didn't hold back. That "I didn't use my full strength" in reference to him not accomplishing to eat all 200 passengers and fusing with the train. Even steelmanning your interpretation, which is wrong, he still admits inferiority to a weaker Zenitsu who's slower than ETDA Zen (excluding Godspeed) who in turns is a Daki victim in terms of speed.

Tanjiro only started managing to use the Hinokami Kagura for more than a short burst in the Entertainment District arc. When Tanjiro fought that decoy body he even wondered if Enmu was weaker than Rui.

Uhh? That's because Enmu is actually weaker than Rui? Don't see how Rui is relevant here.

If Hashiras were automatically within the vicinity of an Upper Moon's level of power, then those who qualify would quite easily deal with Lower Moons they fight. Rengoku did struggle for a bit with his Lower Moon immediately before becoming a Hashira and then worked his way up until the fight against Akaza, so that alone shows that there is a bit of variance with Hashiras.

That's LM2, Hairo. Why can't he be UM lvl? Demon's are constantly growing in strength so he can be above what his rank suggests. Sanemi did in fact keep up with LM1, grew stronger but Rengoku still man-handled him yet struggled more with Base Hairo even with breathing techniques. There is variance in strength of hashira, never denied that, but yet all of the hashira consistently have feats on UM lvl opponents and have to fight said dolls which is rel to Gyokko and Hantengu.

It should also be noted that both Shinjuro and Urokodaki had their entire demon slayer careers behind them which they spent getting stronger and survived all that time unlike many others, so them being quite strong because of that is rather obvious independently of their retirement or current status.

Them getting stronger after getting the title hashira and surviving longer is irrelevant as it ties back into the Giyu statement, all I did was add consistency with by using retired/weaker versions of their retirement-selfs scaling to UM/far above LM tiers.

It should also be noted that it doesn't look like as if any of the Hashiras from the current generation fought Upper Moons prior to encountering them in the manga and you said that you think that Tengen lacks knowledge of how strong an Upper Moon is supposed to be. Since defeating Lower Moons qualifies you for becoming a Hashira keeping up with the superior Upper Moons in any capacity kinda qualifies you by default.

They haven't and they don't need to. They are as strong as one through various evidence I presented. Yea, Tengen's as strong as one if not superior but he lacks the knowledge about it as he never saw nor fought one when he made that statement. Fact is, Tengen's wrong about her not being UM lvl.

This is to emphasize how he got to know Rengoku and that we see clear indicators of their relationship developing and therefore them having spent time together which are factors which decrease the chance of Tengen not knowing how strong Rengoku is.

This still doesn't prove he knows about his combat ability, simply being buddies doesn't make you knowledgeable on everything about them. He knows a hashira can lose to UM's, cool. A hashira can lose to Daki as well which he didn't know before this weird statement he made without any basis.

We've seen with Giyu and Shinobu and also with Iguro and Sanemi that Hashira can end up working together in missions which is also a factor against the idea. There is also that armwrestling ranking list and us knowing that they've been involved in group activities like trying to make Giyu smile. We also got Extraordinary Perception that allows characters to sense how strong someone is to a certain extent on all of the Kimetsu no Yaiba profiles, so if Tengen failed to get any idea of Rengoku's strength despite all of that, then that would be kind of stupid.

None of those suggest this happened with Rengoku and Tengen. That can happen to other hashira but at the end of the day it's just possible not probable. Team missions, especially two hashira at once, is rare anyway and mostly happens through simple coincidence. A hashira is also just sent to the closest region they work at and we have simply no knowledge on if Tengen and Rengoku are working in similar regions. Anything you mentioned is rare or a one-time only occasion.

Extraordinary Perception doesn't work like y'all think it does. It's not used against enemies that much nor is it a passive ability that is used 24/7, this is proven multiple times. So far almost anything in this is kind of based off headcanon.

Didn't Gyutaro heal her? Hantengu's emotions weren't exactly permanently weakened by Nezuko's fire and Daki said that her with Gyutaro's eye was her true power which would indicate that she was at least at that time in peak condition or close to it.

No, not at that point. He cuts her neck the first time, calls her not an UM as well as too weak. His reasoning was simply cuz she lost her head and held it in her hands which is just bad reasoning on his part. Gyutaro then appears after she screams for help, wiped her face which removed anger amped Nezuko's BDA affect and then Gyutaro slices and poisons Tengen.

Daki's recovery and regeneration is stated UM lvl so the fact that Daki takes ages to recover proves it's a very powerful BDA effect in this occasion. Hantengu's emotions got fried everytime they got tagged by it. Genya was hella struggling with Urami but then Nezuko throws blood and he suddenly can rip out both arms. It also affects that Zohakuten tree massively. This Nezuko's BDA should still be weaker than the anger amped Nezuko during ETDA.

After she recovers Tengen never once calls her not worthy of UM ever again. So even steelmanning all of your points about Rengoku, Tengen's knowledge etc, this whole "Not an UM" thing would just apply to a hella weakened Daki not FP Daki thus making it not an anti-feat.

I recall that Rui was weaker than he could have been due to giving his fake family their powers and strength, so his potential was kind of compromised compared to Enmu.

Rui's above LM1-2 even with that nerf. By absorbing his family's abilities, however, he regains power to rival the hashira at that mountain (Giyu/Shinobu or even both at once lol)

The Blood Battle can allow demons to showcase more than raw power and allow them to display what they can do when pushed into a corner, so that wouldn't necessarily imply that Muzan is entirely passive in regards to the ranking of his demons and he has been shown to take action with recruiting to or expelling demons from the Kizuki.

That's kind of baseless. At best they just have raw power as their hax are mostly ineffective against demons unlike humans. Regardless if they're pushed into a corner they remain mostly the same in stats. He's never been shown to take action by recruiting demons to the kizuki, they have to do the rank up by themselves. The only time he's been shown to expel a demon was in a case with Kyogai, which is a special case as well as he grew too weak to be a kizuki but didn't get a blood battle request for his rank, so obviously he'd get downgraded.

 

[Tengouk]

Also re-calced a few feats for demon slayer in case you guys are interested.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Which translation did you use? I'm curious. Viz or manganelo?

No. As I stated Shinobu suggests that it was indeed an idea before-hand and he just suggested they do this with all the corps members, when usually Hashira Training is just done with the y'know hashira as the name suggests which ties into the Yorrichi argument. Doesn't necessarily mean it's an entirely new idea, just changed to fit the current events.
Yes. The proposal is just in reference to changing it from just hashira-only to all corps members. There has been mentioned hashira-trainings as I just mentioned in previous replies. Shinobu is 100% talking like it happened before and Yorrichi doll wasn't used in the all corps members version thus it's most likely it was used for hashira-only. (Possibly due to how difficult the doll is and they struggle with just basic tasks) Kotetsu says right at the start that it's used for combat training. Obviously this means for corps members as there's no reason to use it for swordsmiths as they don't fight they just work on swords. Kotetsu does know about it? He's aware that Muichiro wants to train with it as well as how long it takes. Mitsuri also wasn't confused about the Yorrichi doll, knew the position of the doll to bring food to Muichiro and Kotetsu, who were repairing it, which further reinforces that hashira use it as training consistently. Only reason Kotetsu has limited information is because he just recently has to work on the doll when previously his father worked on it.
I don't think Tengen and Rengoku need to have seen each other as the Hashira Training has multiple steps. So, there's no reason to think they have seen each other's abilities.

I still don't see how this changes anything. Muzan does this with all of his demons. He doesn't like them but acts like he does. He creates them for his own selfish goals. This wouldn't change the truthfulness of her defeating these 7 strong hashira. Yes, so Gyutaro and Muzan support this hence there's truth value. I see no reason to believe they weren't all actually strong hashira (despite already being hashira which have to be naturally strong for their title).

He also reprimands Gyutaro here more than Daki by stating he had too much humanity and should've poisoned them at the start. She's also objectively not a hindrance in that fight as he literally gives him shared vision which is a big buff, lol.

Enmu didn't hold back. That "I didn't use my full strength" in reference to him not accomplishing to eat all 200 passengers and fusing with the train. Even steelmanning your interpretation, which is wrong, he still admits inferiority to a weaker Zenitsu who's slower than ETDA Zen (excluding Godspeed) who in turns is a Daki victim in terms of speed.
Uhh? That's because Enmu is actually weaker than Rui? Don't see how Rui is relevant here.

That's LM2, Hairo. Why can't he be UM lvl? Demon's are constantly growing in strength so he can be above what his rank suggests. Sanemi did in fact keep up with LM1, grew stronger but Rengoku still man-handled him yet struggled more with Base Hairo even with breathing techniques. There is variance in strength of hashira, never denied that, but yet all of the hashira consistently have feats on UM lvl opponents and have to fight said dolls which is rel to Gyokko and Hantengu.

Them getting stronger after getting the title hashira and surviving longer is irrelevant as it ties back into the Giyu statement, all I did was add consistency with by using retired/weaker versions of their retirement-selfs scaling to UM/far above LM tiers.
They haven't and they don't need to. They are as strong as one through various evidence I presented. Yea, Tengen's as strong as one if not superior but he lacks the knowledge about it as he never saw nor fought one when he made that statement. Fact is, Tengen's wrong about her not being UM lvl.
This still doesn't prove he knows about his combat ability, simply being buddies doesn't make you knowledgeable on everything about them. He knows a hashira can lose to UM's, cool. A hashira can lose to Daki as well which he didn't know before this weird statement he made without any basis.

None of those suggest this happened with Rengoku and Tengen. That can happen to other hashira but at the end of the day it's just possible not probable. Team missions, especially two hashira at once, is rare anyway and mostly happens through simple coincidence. A hashira is also just sent to the closest region they work at and we have simply no knowledge on if Tengen and Rengoku are working in similar regions. Anything you mentioned is rare or a one-time only occasion.
Extraordinary Perception doesn't work like y'all think it does. It's not used against enemies that much nor is it a passive ability that is used 24/7, this is proven multiple times. So far almost anything in this is kind of based off headcanon.

No, not at that point. He cuts her neck the first time, calls her not an UM as well as too weak. His reasoning was simply cuz she lost her head and held it in her hands which is just bad reasoning on his part. Gyutaro then appears after she screams for help, wiped her face which removed anger amped Nezuko's BDA affect and then Gyutaro slices and poisons Tengen.
Daki's recovery and regeneration is stated UM lvl so the fact that Daki takes ages to recover proves it's a very powerful BDA effect in this occasion. Hantengu's emotions got fried everytime they got tagged by it. Genya was hella struggling with Urami but then Nezuko throws blood and he suddenly can rip out both arms. It also affects that Zohakuten tree massively. This Nezuko's BDA should still be weaker than the anger amped Nezuko during ETDA.
After she recovers Tengen never once calls her not worthy of UM ever again. So even steelmanning all of your points about Rengoku, Tengen's knowledge etc, this whole "Not an UM" thing would just apply to a hella weakened Daki not FP Daki thus making it not an anti-feat.

Rui's above LM1-2 even with that nerf. By absorbing his family's abilities, however, he regains power to rival the hashira at that mountain (Giyu/Shinobu or even both at once lol)

That's kind of baseless. At best they just have raw power as their hax are mostly ineffective against demons unlike humans. Regardless if they're pushed into a corner they remain mostly the same in stats. He's never been shown to take action by recruiting demons to the kizuki, they have to do the rank up by themselves. The only time he's been shown to expel a demon was in a case with Kyogai, which is a special case as well as he grew too weak to be a kizuki but didn't get a blood battle request for his rank, so obviously he'd get downgraded.

I just looked quickly for a translation to look up on the internet and found something called kimetsu-yaiba.online. You can point me to something more reliable and accurate if you happen to have a link like for example the one I've asked for and you haven't provided yet. I've also went ahead and listened to the anime for the Japanese word for strong "tsuyoi" which I've already heard a lot due to having a preference for subtitles. Muzan uses the word for Daki but it doesn't show up in front of the word Hashira, so there not being an adjective for them is presumably the correct translation unless the anime changed something or there is some linguistic detail I missed due to a lack of Japanese skills.

Alright, so what you are talking about is restricted to just the Hashira which means just nine people which you would think doesn't need anywhere near as much organization as for the entire Demon Slayer Corps, so separating the Hashira into multiple steps would presumably not be needed for that. If the Hashira have any knowledge of how the others who are training separately from them are doing during a joint training which due to their position and importance should be something they are allowed to know, then that makes it even less likely that Tengen doesn't know how strong Rengoku is especially since Hashira training together would presumably happen regularly with something like that. Kotetsu did have an idea for how long it takes and he was wrong about it in the case of Muichiro which shows that he didn't really know how strong Muichiro is. Muichiro also didn't know abou thow Kotetsu can adjust the movements of Yoriichi Type Zero indicating that he didn't have any prior familiarity with it consistent with how he according to Kotetsu needed to learn how to use the key. Mitsuri left the Swordsmith Village before the debut of Yoriichi Type Zero and came back during the attack on the village, so a scene like what you are describing never happened according to my knowledge.

We know that Muzan doesn't have a problem with being harsh or devastatingly abusive to his subordinates, so I'd like to point out that he was definitely playing it up way further than usual with Daki. The closest other instance is with Rui and even then it's not really the same.

My view on the use of "lol" is that it should be reserved for casual comments and jokes. If the person you have a discussion with doesn't think you are taking it seriously, then their view of you will suffer.

The decoy body was enough for Tanjiro to wonder about how it compares to Rui which makes sense due to having been decapitated with Water Breathing instead of Hinokami Kagura, so that one was at the very least not very strong compared to the train body and Tanjiro still needed Hinokami Kagura which he couldn't use all the time at that point in the story. Given that Tanjiro is supposed to be significantly stronger from his training and Enmu was not only Lower Moon 1 but also enhanced through a large amount of Muzan's blood that can probably be debated but I won't insist on it since I think that the rest of the discussion is much more important.

Because Muzan wouldn't be complaining about how Lower Moons are so weak, get constantly replaced and never kill Hashiras if any of them were Upper Moon level or anywhere close? Hairo certainly wasn't stated to be abnormally strong for a Lower Moon and he would have needed to have grown at a much more rapid pace compared to the Upper Moons who had centuries in order to get as strong as one. Also, why would you rely on Hairo's rank as evidence for his strength when you also don't consider those ranks to be that reliable? Rengoku didn't manhandle Sanemi since he wasn't even fighting back due to how fighting amongst corps members is forbidden.

The point is that Hashiras qualify already if they can defeat Lower Moons who are without a doubt weaker than Upper Moons and that therefore there cannot actually be a requirement for being able to keep up with Upper Moons especially when that cannot be reliably put to the test without likely deadly consequences and that clearly hasn't previously happened with any of the current Hashira. A Hashira being able to keep up with Upper Moons is absolutely proof that they deserve their position but that doesn't mean that this is something they should've been capable of the very moment they became one. Tengen has been a newbie Hashira himself and seen people become Hashira after him. If he was incapable of figuring out what the baseline is for a new Hashira which I don't think is the case, then I'd suggest an Intelligence downgrade for him. I don't doubt that Daki was legitimately strong enough to defeat Hashira but I don't think that they were comparable to the current ones.

That doesn't exactly mean that it's never used and Rengoku sensed the presence of the Hashiras when first meeting them, so it's unlikely to be so rarely used that Tengen would never sense anything from Rengoku. They do have a meeting every six months and didn't you mention a training for Hashiras a few times yearly?

There are two instances of Tengen easily cutting Daki's head off with one occuring after Gyutaro healed her. He even suggests that without the ability to not die without Daki being beheaded as well Gyutaro would have been better off just absorbing Daki, so clearly Daki's strength doesn't mean much to Tengen regardless of her superiority to Lower Moons.

I'm not inclined to believe that Rui could have defeated both Giyu and Shinobu especially with how he underestimated Giyu though we did never get to see that hypothetical full power Rui. Ultimately he still ended up falling short of Muzan's hopes and expectations for him despite him being viewed more highly compared to his fellow Lower Moons.

Chapter 116 states that demons can experience explosive growth just like humans when driven into a corner and being driven into a corner countless times is part of how Hantengu got as strong as he did. Technically Muzan directly recruited Kokushibo and sought out Akaza as a candidate. He also made the direct decision of disbanding the Lower Moons and disposed of them. There is also making Nakime the new Upper Moon 4 and Kaigaku being made Upper Moon 6 even though there was a vacant spot for the new Upper Moon 5. You also have to consider that demons do have to somehow find out about the Twelve Kizuki and how to join them in the first place leading to my assumption that Muzan is the one responsible for that. From what I recall Kyogai hit a limit but he didn't get weaker and overcoming that limit is his motivation for seeking out a Marechi. He does seem weak for a former Lower Moon even if he was still a tough fight for Tanjiro, so my headcanon here is that there was some favoritism due to the similarities between his Blood Demon Art and Nakime's and the possibility of it becoming significantly more potent in the future and similarly useful and Muzan also liking him more than most of the Lower Moons though we have no related statements or confirmations.

 

[Tengouk]

I just looked quickly for a translation to look up on the internet and found something called kimetsu-yaiba.online. You can point me to something more reliable and accurate if you happen to have a link like for example the one I've asked for and you haven't provided yet. I've also went ahead and listened to the anime for the Japanese word for strong "tsuyoi" which I've already heard a lot due to having a preference for subtitles. Muzan uses the word for Daki but it doesn't show up in front of the word Hashira, so there not being an adjective for them is presumably the correct translation unless the anime changed something or there is some linguistic detail I missed due to a lack of Japanese skills.

I used viz media. Which is also the correct version. The raw states; "and buried 7 strong hashira". Idk what anime or manga you read but that's what I got out.

Aright, so what you are talking about is restricted to just the Hashira which means just nine people which you would think doesn't need anywhere near as much organization as for the entire Demon Slayer Corps, so separating the Hashira into multiple steps would presumably not be needed for that. If the Hashira have any knowledge of how the others who are training separately from them are doing during a joint training which due to their position and importance should be something they are allowed to know, then that makes it even less likely that Tengen doesn't know how strong Rengoku is especially since Hashira training together would presumably happen regularly with something like that.

It wouldn't need as much effort yet still be hella much effort? There's 9 steps + Yorrichi doll's training ground (ngl, the doll seems to be also used independently regardless of hashira-training as seen with Mui) each with different requirements for each hashira. There is a need to separate them unless you want them to waste time during training when they can just move onto different trainings first. Which makes factually more sense as they don't have unlimited time so there's no way they're waiting here for each other's turn lol. Just because they're in the same group and do similar trainings doesn't mean they now know their strength, that's not how it works. The manga also shows this multiple times.

Kotetsu did have an idea for how long it takes and he was wrong about it in the case of Muichiro which shows that he didn't really know how strong Muichiro is. Muichiro also didn't know abou thow Kotetsu can adjust the movements of Yoriichi Type Zero indicating that he didn't have any prior familiarity with it consistent with how he according to Kotetsu needed to learn how to use the key. Mitsuri left the Swordsmith Village before the debut of Yoriichi Type Zero and came back during the attack on the village, so a scene like what you are describing never happened according to my knowledge.

No, he wasn't wrong. The training lasts that long but Muichiro literally broke the whole thing thus it was faster than expected. That's not indicative that he didn't know it. Why couldn't he just have fought it like that without using the mechanic thing every time lol. Doesn't really defeat anything. He didn't need to learn how to use the key, he got it from the kid and used it on the doll. Literally what the kid says. His memory issues also play a factor in this as well. Mitsuri thing happens in the novel lol.

We know that Muzan doesn't have a problem with being harsh or devastatingly abusive to his subordinates, so I'd like to point out that he was definitely playing it up way further than usual with Daki. The closest other instance is with Rui and even then it's not really the same.

Doesn't defeat anything, Muzan's still truthfully speaking to her here from the way of explaining how demons function to the point of telling her she's grown more powerful than ever, as well as being the most beautiful creature which is objectively true. No reason to suggest he trolled and lied about a single word.

My view on the use of "lol" is that it should be reserved for casual comments and jokes. If the person you have a discussion with doesn't think you are taking it seriously, then their view of you will suffer.

Not everyone sees it like that and I don't think I need to change my way of talking just cuz of a non-issue.

The decoy body was enough for Tanjiro to wonder about how it compares to Rui which makes sense due to having been decapitated with Water Breathing instead of Hinokami Kagura, so that one was at the very least not very strong compared to the train body and Tanjiro still needed Hinokami Kagura which he couldn't use all the time at that point in the story. Given that Tanjiro is supposed to be significantly stronger from his training and Enmu was not only Lower Moon 1 but also enhanced through a large amount of Muzan's blood that can probably be debated but I won't insist on it since I think that the rest of the discussion is much more important.

He cut it down and suggested based off resistance that he's weaker than him. I don't think he ever states he needs Hinokami Kagura, utilizing it in battle doesn't suggest he was forced or needed to. He doesn't say or imply such thing either. It's like saying Shinobu needed to use Insect Breathing on the Spider Sister based off her utilization, which would be straight up incorrect. Enmu's still weaker after a blood-amp + train-fuse as the statement includes the entirety of Enmu's capability and his rank don't matter anyway. Tanjiro getting stronger is irrelevant as he admits inferiority to Rui regardless if he's gotten stronger. This is supported by how Rui held back against Tanjiro and later got so mad that he got straight up nerfed, so no anti-feat here.

Because Muzan wouldn't be complaining about how Lower Moons are so weak, get constantly replaced and never kill Hashiras if any of them were Upper Moon level or anywhere close? Hairo certainly wasn't stated to be abnormally strong for a Lower Moon and he would have needed to have grown at a much more rapid pace compared to the Upper Moons who had centuries in order to get as strong as one. Also, why would you rely on Hairo's rank as evidence for his strength when you also don't consider those ranks to be that reliable? Rengoku didn't manhandle Sanemi since he wasn't even fighting back due to how fighting amongst corps members is forbidden.

Good thing Hairo is already dead when he made that statement. Why does he need to be stated "abnormally strong for a LM" None of them at the battlefield have knowledge about this. There ain't even need to be any such a statement. That'd just be an argument from silence. We don't know how long it took for UM's to get to their rank. Gyutaro and Daki iirc just took 12 years for their position and even then they're stronger than their rank suggests. Neither do we have information on how long Hairo took to gain LM2 and how long he stayed in that position. All we know is that he was a low-tier demon when he got bullied by Shinjuro and was LM2 when Mitsuri got into the corps which she didn't when she was 17. Why can't Hairo be massively talented anyway? His hax had tremendous potential. I don't rely on his LM rank. You brought up how "he struggled with a LM" as if his rank matters and is equivalent to his strength. Idk what you define as man-handle but for me that's what man-handle is. Sanemi's getting pushed in close-combat due to not leaving a single scratch on Rengoku nor can he actually tag him since Rengoku blocked each hit.

The point is that Hashiras qualify already if they can defeat Lower Moons who are without a doubt weaker than Upper Moons and that therefore there cannot actually be a requirement for being able to keep up with Upper Moons especially when that cannot be reliably put to the test without likely deadly consequences and that clearly hasn't previously happened with any of the current Hashira. A Hashira being able to keep up with Upper Moons is absolutely proof that they deserve their position but that doesn't mean that this is something they should've been capable of the very moment they became one. Tengen has been a newbie Hashira himself and seen people become Hashira after him. If he was incapable of figuring out what the baseline is for a new Hashira which I don't think is the case, then I'd suggest an Intelligence downgrade for him. I don't doubt that Daki was legitimately strong enough to defeat Hashira but I don't think that they were comparable to the current ones.

Already explained that a requirement for a hashira is literally being able to keep up and damage UM's 1vs1 and scale to a doll that's UM lvl lol. Stated this literally multiple times so I ain't gonna repeat this again. I never said he's incapable what are you talking about? Why is an intelligence downgrade if he doesn't think about analyzing their strength that doesn't correlate at all. I have no idea what intelligence ranking he has on this site but if he's high I suggest that it gets removed. He was never shown to be smart outside of battle. IQ =/= BIQ. Explained why they are several times as well now.

That doesn't exactly mean that it's never used and Rengoku sensed the presence of the Hashiras when first meeting them, so it's unlikely to be so rarely used that Tengen would never sense anything from Rengoku. They do have a meeting every six months and didn't you mention a training for Hashiras a few times yearly?

I never said it's never used... I said it's rarely used and doesn't function as how you all depict it does. It's not accurate. It doesn't work as a 100% identical source of knowing how strong an enemy/teammate is. We see this multiple times, Spider Sister, Daki Vs Zenitsu, Mui Vs Koku, Tengen Vs Gyutaro. In some battles they also never analyze based off presence that doesn't suggest they're stupid or whatever. They also just don't utilize it all the time even in times where it's in favor. I see no reason why Tengen would do it towards a teammate when he doesn't do it against insanely strong enemies. Meeting someone doesn't = to knowing their true extent. Tanjiro is a perfect example. Guy literally trains with Giyu yet failed to actually know how skilled and strong Giyu is. Simply meeting up with someone doesn't give them full knowledge. Yea, I already explained how they don't need to meet each other during these.

There are two instances of Tengen easily cutting Daki's head off with one occuring after Gyutaro healed her. He even suggests that without the ability to not die without Daki being beheaded as well Gyutaro would have been better off just absorbing Daki, so clearly Daki's strength doesn't mean much to Tengen regardless of her superiority to Lower Moons.ea

Man...How does this suggest she's not UM lvl?? This just suggests she's weaker than Gyutaro. Like I said no mention from him of her not being UM caliber after she gets healed. She's just stated weaker than Gyutaro which I also explained thousand times already is factual. Daki not meaning anything to Tengen in terms of power was established several times. This doesn't suggest she's weaker than like Akaza or sum because Akaza can be a fraud and useless to him as well. Tengen's already capable of blitzing hashira tiers which are mostly relative.

I'm not inclined to believe that Rui could have defeated both Giyu and Shinobu especially with how he underestimated Giyu though we did never get to see that hypothetical full power Rui. Ultimately he still ended up falling short of Muzan's hopes and expectations for him despite him being viewed more highly compared to his fellow Lower Moons.

Why not? He only underestimated them because of the anger nerf. You gotta read the statement again. All the demons fall short on Muzan's hope this don't mean nothing lmao. Atleast he expected he can take down hashira if he regains his power.

Chapter 116 states that demons can experience explosive growth just like humans when driven into a corner and being driven into a corner countless times is part of how Hantengu got as strong as he did.

Hantengu never got stronger. This is just in reference to spawning new stronger creatures from his own strength. He never gains new strength, just his own that he already posseses. If this was actually true then literal death-bed Hantengu would've gained far more strength to convert it into his regeneration but instead he had to rely on eating humans to gain strength. Obviously contracting your interpretation.

Technically Muzan directly recruited Kokushibo and sought out Akaza as a candidate. He also made the direct decision of disbanding the Lower Moons and disposed of them. There is also making Nakime the new Upper Moon 4 and Kaigaku being made Upper Moon 6 even though there was a vacant spot for the new Upper Moon 5.

None of these prove what you said? He never recruits them into the kizuki, he seeks these humans out, turns them into demons and lets them rank up by themselves. Douma literally suggests that Akaza wasn't ranked up by Muzan but rather had to do that himself which is literally how it works. I still don't see how this connects to Muzan ranking up when someone gets stronger. So far the only evidence you got is that he removes weak demons from the kizuki lol. Never once does he rank them up themselves. It would go against the blood battles which aren't there to rank down but to rank up. What even proves Nakime and Kaigaku ranked up through Muzan? Why couldn't they have done this by themselves.

You also have to consider that demons do have to somehow find out about the Twelve Kizuki and how to join them in the first place leading to my assumption that Muzan is the one responsible for that. From what I recall Kyogai hit a limit but he didn't get weaker and overcoming that limit is his motivation for seeking out a Marechi.

Telling them about kizuki works as well. That doesn't suggest he ranks them up. Databook states his power weakened due to not consuming humans so yea he did get weaker.

He does seem weak for a former Lower Moon even if he was still a tough fight for Tanjiro, so my headcanon here is that there was some favoritism due to the similarities between his Blood Demon Art and Nakime's and the possibility of it becoming significantly more potent in the future and similarly useful and Muzan also liking him more than most of the Lower Moons though we have no related statements or confirmations.

Nah, he's fodder. He's weaker than Spider Dad by far. A whole perception blitz lvl below him via Inosuke ~ Tanjiro ~ Kyogai relativity. Kyogai also got so weak to the point where he can't even kill 2 average demons despite whole drum hax and absorption/demons eating each other. He definitely got weaker and it's also just stated that he did.

Anyway, I think we can move on from this derail and just move onto Tengen's statement regarding Daki which doesn't defeat my scaling since she's nerfed at that point in time.

 

[Passersby]

As i have no time to argue, i'll focus on the obvious

I used viz media. Which is also the correct version. The raw states; "and buried 7 strong hashira". Idk what anime or manga you read but that's what I got out.

Yeah stating viz is accurate in any form is something you'd need to actually prove, the anime is far more accurate than the manga both in the translation in many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many places and in the actual content on the screen, the anime does a good job of fixing inconsistencies in both aspects and is a far better source to use, use it instead

does this suggest she's not UM lvl?? This just suggests she's weaker than Gyutaro. Like I said no mention from him of her not being UM caliber after she gets healed. She's just stated weaker than Gyutaro which I also explained thousand times already is factual

He also doesn't retract the statement after she gets healed, so it still applies, is there any actual evidence she is uppermoon caliber?

I don't think he ever states he needs Hinokami Kagura, utilizing it in battle doesn't suggest he was forced or needed to.

False equivalence, HK puts a huge strain on his body and it renders him unable to move for the price of offering increased output, him using it instead of water breathing that he can comfortably sustain heavily implies he needs it

If you think he did it for no reason might ad well prove it

Already explained that a requirement for a hashira is literally being able to keep up and damage UM's 1vs1 and scale to a doll that's UM lvl lol.

The requirement is quits explicitly killing 50 demons or a lower moon, rengoku killed a lower moon and that's how he got the pillar title iirc

And Don't even start with the he scales to sanemi shenanigans because he doesn't, sanemi outscales any pillar not named gyomei


That's all for now, see you in a 4 days

 

[Tengouk]

As i have no time to argue, i'll focus on the obvious

Yeah stating viz is accurate in any form is something you'd need to actually prove, the anime is far more accurate than the manga both in the translation in many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many places and in the actual content on the screen, the anime does a good job of fixing inconsistencies in both aspects and is a far better source to use, use it instead

Already proved that... maybe read...? And suggesting the anime being far more accurate by using different cases is a composition fallacy.

He also doesn't retract the statement after she gets healed, so it still applies, is there any actual evidence she is uppermoon caliber?

Argument from silence. His argument consists of Tengen calling her weak when she's weakened hence there's no anti feat. Already proved she's UM caliber but you seemingly didn't read and I have no interest in discussing this with you.

Falsse equivalence, HK puts a huge strain on his body and it renders him unable to move for the price of offering increased output, him using it instead of water breathing that he can comfortably sustain heavily implies he needs it

That's not a false equivalence. It works exactly the same. Utilizing a form doesn't even mean he was forced to. Nothing implies anything here. He thought he can cut Enmu's neck with a basic water breathing form lol. He never states it, he never implies it, making it a baseless assertion so hitchen's razor on this claim.

If you think he did it for no reason might ad well prove it

Not my burden, it's his burden to prove that he needed it as he asserted. I'm on the negation here.

The requirement is quits explicitly killing 50 demons or a lower moon, rengoku killed a lower moon and that's how he got the pillar title iirc

Uhhh yea lol. That's obvious, you just made a non-issue.

And Don't even start with the he scales to sanemi shenanigans because he doesn't, sanemi outscales any pillar not named gyomei

Don't care, would appreciate if you don't butt in and start talking about stuff that's not even part of the discussion, thanks.

That's all for now, see you in a 4 days

You can leave this to me and him to discuss but cya.

 

[Tengouk]

Alright, so apparently Muzan can change the temperature around him to make it snow lol.

 

[Passersby]

whatever points i've dealt with are out of order so

Already proved that... maybe read...?

you said this

The raw states; "and buried 7 strong hashira".

and basically told us to bleive you, that's not evidence, that's what you think is correct,

nehz did a far better job at actually explaining this

You can point me to something more reliable and accurate if you happen to have a link like for example the one I've asked for and you haven't provided yet. I've also went ahead and listened to the anime for the Japanese word for strong "tsuyoi" which I've already heard a lot due to having a preference for subtitles. Muzan uses the word for Daki but it doesn't show up in front of the word Hashira, so there not being an adjective for them is presumably the correct translation unless the anime changed something or there is some linguistic detail I missed due to a lack of Japanese skills.

care to properly elaborate on the translation because the anime acutally fits this and simply states 7 hashira instead of describing as being strong

And suggesting the anime being far more accurate by using different cases is a composition fallacy.

don't give fallacies a cursory glance be done with them, that's not what that means, a composition will only take effect if i claimed something has a certain property that and because it has it a composite of it would, as bricks are light, a house is made of bricks, so the house is also light

what i did there was literally standard data analaysis and observation, the anime is a far better source of translation because it has significantly less translation mistakes and thus is a far more reliable source than VIZ ever was, VIZ sucks at translating, it even messes up the god damn forms and makes such balant translayion mistakes such as stating zenitsu can only use god speed once periode, (he used it twice)

i have no idea why you're insistent on using it, but it's far from what i'd call a reliable source for translations unless this is a rare occurance in which case you have to at least show that that is indeed the case, because can't see it, the link doesn't work either

Argument from silence. His argument consists of Tengen calling her weak when she's weakened hence there's no anti feat. Already proved she's UM caliber

if you're insisting on his claim being made on the basis of her being weakened prove it, he slashed her head off a second time and said nothing about her supposed siginificantly improved stats once she was healed, an argument from silence would only work in your case if tengen said nothing, periode, what he did say is she is weak and not uppermoon caliber, him not retracting that statement even after cutting her head off a second time and seeing her supposed full power again works against your favor in so many ways, if you're stating him not retracting the statement doesn't matter feel free to provide an adequate explanation for why that's the case

Already proved she's UM caliber but you seemingly didn't read and I have no interest in discussing this with you.

feel free to quote them, i will deal with them one by one when given the time

Not my burden, it's his burden to prove that he needed it as he asserted. I'm on the negation here.

you asserted he doesn't need it as well, or ig you stated just because he used it doesn't mean he needs it, from what i'm seeing, your position is founded on the idea that tanjiro used the HK even when he doesn't need it, given the context surrounding the breath, it's after effects tanjiro's analytical abilities and his habits of analyzing his opponents mid fight the answer heavily tilts in the favor of him deducing he needed an output the water breath couldn't provide, if you think otherwise, again, feel free to provide sufficieant reasons for why tanjiro would use something that incapitates him after a single use despite him not needing to use it

what kind of information does the series up to that point have that made you reach that conclusion?

That's not a false equivalence. It works exactly the same. Utilizing a form doesn't even mean he was forced to. Nothing implies anything here. He thought he can cut Enmu's neck with a basic water breathing form lol. He never states it, he never implies it, making it a baseless assertion so hitchen's razor on this claim.

i explained why the circumstances are different, thus making it a false equivalance, saying what's summarized as "nuh uh it isn't" doesn't mean much, i already explained everything above, actually i will copy paste it here as well

you asserted he doesn't need it as well, or ig you stated just because he used it doesn't mean he needs it, from what i'm seeing, your position is founded on the idea that tanjiro used the HK even when he doesn't need it, given the context surrounding the breath, it's after effects tanjiro's analytical abilities and his habits of analyzing his opponents mid fight the answer heavily tilts in the favor of him deducing he needed an output the water breath couldn't provide, if you think otherwise, again, feel free to provide sufficieant reasons for why tanjiro would use something that incapitates him after a single use despite him not needing to use it

what kind of information does the series up to that point have that made you reach that conclusion?

Uhhh yea lol. That's obvious, you just made a non-issue.

so you acknowledge being comparable to uppermoons was never a requirement?

This is more-so due to the nature of Daki's neck function relying on speed to be cut. Also I'm not certain if his neck is even harder than Daki's neck.

if you'd like to claim daki's neck is tougher to cut trough without her blood demon art (or even with it) you'd need sufficient enough information and reasoning to do so, the trio struggled because daki's obi converts the stress from being dominated by shear to dominated by tensile due to the elastic deformation of the band, which can be overcome by strking faster than what the obi can bend which aelegates the cutting power entirely into overcoming shear strength rather than tensile strength, her neck, even with the obi hax added to it pales in comparison to every single uppermoon

I don't think there's anything wrong with Godspeed Zen scaling above Akaza.

provide the information that led to that conclusion if you're speaking about zenitsu from season 2

He's consistently portrayed as insanely fast. With the novel stating Zenitsu's Thunder Breathing itself has the best instant acceleration among all breathing,

that isn't sufficient, that simply implies he has the breath style most suited for speed boosts

him being constantly above Tanjiro and Inosuke etc.

not sufficient, both of them are far below the relevant characters in terms of stats him being faster than they are provides no further input on his power standing verse wide other than him being faster than the 2

The only reason they might not beat Akaza is due to Zen not using Godspeed in character at the start of a battle.

you've yet to establish to provide a sufficiently enough logical basis to come to that conclusion

the narrative itself goes against the kizuki ranking

any relevant information to prove this?

, prior to the battle Daki was stated to have grown far stronger, makes sense due to consuming humans, but she'd receive blood on top due to Muzan giving blood when he sees improvement as stated. So UM6 can't be backscaled to any other UM.

he is still uppermoon 6, so he can, unless you can bring any form of information that implies he is now stronger than uppermoon 5, he is still uppermoon 6, and thus, weaker than the 5th based on a verse established strenght higherarchy

The other UM's obviously grow too hence they can't be connected to others via ranking either. Feats would be the best way of finding how they do against each other.

yes they can, they may grow in power but if the ranking is the same there is little information to prove they now outrank the guy above them, the information we do have is akaza hates koku and doma's guts so had he been stronger he would have replaced them a long time ago doma is a weirdo uppermoon 5 wished akaza was the one to die and upper 4 is a weirdo as well, but he is still upper 4, and based on the in verse established scaling he is stronger than upper 5, if, and that's a very big if, you can provide any sort of information from the series that hints to the opposite you're very much welcome to do so

as i was saying, based on the prior info, the demons wanting to gain muzan's favor as another factor, them nit gunninh for a higher rank is stupid and any power up they got would be meaningless for scaling the characters unless some kind of information the series provided says otherwise

Uhh? That's because Enmu is actually weaker than Rui? Don't see how Rui is relevant here.

nothing suggests this, and i mean absolutely nothing, is there some kind of information you have that suggests rui is stronger than an amped lower moon 1?

That's LM2, Hairo. Why can't he be UM lvl?

he can't be uppermoon caliber because nothing in the series established that he is, i have no idea where and how you're coming up with the most baseless conclusions but please, show me something that implies or even hints at hairo being uppermoon caliber

anemi did in fact keep up with LM1, grew stronger but Rengoku still man-handled him

right, you're arguing that sanemi was seriously trying to kill rengoku and was giving it his all there?

leaving that aside, it's preposterous to argue that Sanemi is on merely lower Moon 2's level when he does better against Kokushibo than Marked Muichiro is positively absurd, sanemi is able to go toe to toe with Upper Moon 1 without any buffs, and while he doesn't win, he manages to fend off Kokushibo's attacks for an extended period of time.

koku is is the guy that blitzed Muichiro, who blitzes Upper Moon 5, who is in turn fast enough that he would have fodderized any Lower Moon (you can try to argue with this assertion, i'm merely going to bring up the prior points about how speed works)

Unless Sanemi's stats and skill spiked by several orders of magnitude in between Rengoku becoming a Pillar, he could have trivially defeated Rengoku in that fight and just chose not to

, but yet all of the hashira consistently have feats on UM lvl opponents and have to fight said dolls which is rel to Gyokko and Hantengu.

the uppermoons are varied in strenght, far too varied in fact, and it shows, already went over the muichiro blitzing shenanniagans, read them again if you want to

Them getting stronger after getting the title hashira and surviving longer is irrelevant as it ties back into the Giyu statement, all I did was add consistency with by using retired/weaker versions of their retirement-selfs scaling to UM/far above LM tiers.

only relevant scene i remember the old retired hashiras were from 1 shinjuro after the EDA with based tanjiro, who is in no way shape or form uppermoon caliber, since he was blitzed by based non powered daki, who herself isn't uppermoon caliber, and urokodaki chasing after nezuko who was injected with the drug in the final arc as she was running in her base form, painting and sweating buckets and he still couldn't catch up, how do these implie the 2 are uppermoon caliber?

and sure, tanjiro got stronger, but you can't quanitify how much stronger that is, you can't draw any relevant conclusions besides stating the tanjiro that was dealt with is stronger than the one that got no diffed by base daki

They haven't and they don't need to. They are as strong as one through various evidence I presented.

i legit see no evidence, if i missed it, please bring it up

Daki's recovery and regeneration is stated UM lvl so the fact that Daki takes ages to recover proves it's a very powerful BDA effect in this occasion. Hantengu's emotions got fried everytime they got tagged by it. Genya was hella struggling with Urami but then Nezuko throws blood and he suddenly can rip out both arms. It also affects that Zohakuten tree massively. This Nezuko's BDA should still be weaker than the anger amped Nezuko during ETDA.

nezuko's BDA is anti demons, yes, it doesn't weaken them, it damages them, being damaged and being weakened are 2 completely different things even when they sound the same, it also negates their regen, but iirc, daki's neck wasn't damaged by the fire (at least the damage wasn't shown) and she still got blitzed

After she recovers Tengen never once calls her not worthy of UM ever again. So even steelmanning all of your points about Rengoku, Tengen's knowledge etc, this whole "Not an UM" thing would just apply to a hella weakened Daki not FP Daki thus making it not an anti-feat.

text book definition of the argument of silence you accused me of doing, in fact, him not retracting the statement after easily cutting her neck off again says a lot (she is a weakling)

Doesn't defeat anything, Muzan's still truthfully speaking to her here from the way of explaining how demons function to the point of telling her she's grown more powerful than ever, as well as being the most beautiful creature which is objectively true. No reason to suggest he trolled and lied about a single word.

as was stated, muzan is an expert manipulator and him stating she is the most beautiful already sets red flags for how many of his statements are actually true, half truths are a thing, but this is meaningless

Good thing Hairo is already dead when he made that statement. Why does he need to be stated "abnormally strong for a LM" None of them at the battlefield have knowledge about this. There ain't even need to be any such a statement. That'd just be an argument from silence.

because to come to conclusion, we need some form of information given to us in order to build a case and a sufficient backing to safely conclude something is true, something that i found wholly lacking in all your posts

Already explained that a requirement for a hashira is literally being able to keep up and damage UM's 1vs1 and scale to a doll that's UM lvl lol.

what information did you use to come up with that conclusion?
because i don't remember anything from the series that states that being on the level of an uppermoon is what you need to be a pillar

He was never shown to be smart outside of battle. IQ =/= BIQ. Explained why they are several times as well now.

IQ=/= BIQ is baseless, based in what, from the demon slayer series did you come to that conclusion?

why is intelligence not correlated with your ability to quickly analyze and moves and come up with countermeasures, it absolutely does, if the series established it isn't then that's a failure on the on the part of the writers

Tengen's already capable of blitzing hashira tiers which are mostly relative.

the hashiras aren't relative, they never were, and never will be, your stupid senses shenannigans were already dealt with you literally cannot consistently exchange blows against someone who is operating at speeds several dozen times faster than yours no matter how well you read into the future (something you've yet to prove sanemi can even do)

He only underestimated them because of the anger nerf.

i'm seeing this stated a lot, but where was this...well, anger nerf, established to be a thing
i don't really remember

Don't care, would appreciate if you don't butt in and start talking about stuff that's not even part of the discussion, thanks.

you keep claiming the pillars are relative and that's a vital point in your position, without it the entire thing collapses, and you know it, if you don't care stop bringing in the fact that the pillars are relative without addressing my prior assertions

. What even proves Nakime and Kaigaku ranked up through Muzan? Why couldn't they have done this by themselves.

the upper 4th, 5th and 6th postions were empty, nakime took the 4th, the upper 6th and 5th positions were empty, what do you think kaigaku taking the 6th position suggests then?

the only one that can give ranks is muzan, given the fact that you established blood battles are there to rank up and not down what do you think this suggests?


well this is it for now

 

[Tengouk]

whatever points i've dealt with are out of order so


you said this


and basically told us to bleive you, that's not evidence, that's what you think is correct,

nehz did a far better job at actually explaining this


care to properly elaborate on the translation because the anime acutally fits this and simply states 7 hashira instead of describing as being strong


don't give fallacies a cursory glance be done with them, that's not what that means, a composition will only take effect if i claimed something has a certain property that and because it has it a composite of it would, as bricks are light, a house is made of bricks, so the house is also light

what i did there was literally standard data analaysis and observation, the anime is a far better source of translation because it has significantly less translation mistakes and thus is a far more reliable source than VIZ ever was, VIZ sucks at translating, it even messes up the god damn forms and makes such balant translayion mistakes such as stating zenitsu can only use god speed once periode, (he used it twice)

i have no idea why you're insistent on using it, but it's far from what i'd call a reliable source for translations unless this is a rare occurance in which case you have to at least show that that is indeed the case, because can't see it, the link doesn't work either




if you're insisting on his claim being made on the basis of her being weakened prove it, he slashed her head off a second time and said nothing about her supposed siginificantly improved stats once she was healed, an argument from silence would only work in your case if tengen said nothing, periode, what he did say is she is weak and not uppermoon caliber, him not retracting that statement even after cutting her head off a second time and seeing her supposed full power again works against your favor in so many ways, if you're stating him not retracting the statement doesn't matter feel free to provide an adequate explanation for why that's the case



feel free to quote them, i will deal with them one by one when given the time


you asserted he doesn't need it as well, or ig you stated just because he used it doesn't mean he needs it, from what i'm seeing, your position is founded on the idea that tanjiro used the HK even when he doesn't need it, given the context surrounding the breath, it's after effects tanjiro's analytical abilities and his habits of analyzing his opponents mid fight the answer heavily tilts in the favor of him deducing he needed an output the water breath couldn't provide, if you think otherwise, again, feel free to provide sufficieant reasons for why tanjiro would use something that incapitates him after a single use despite him not needing to use it

what kind of information does the series up to that point have that made you reach that conclusion?


i explained why the circumstances are different, thus making it a false equivalance, saying what's summarized as "nuh uh it isn't" doesn't mean much, i already explained everything above, actually i will copy paste it here as well



so you acknowledge being comparable to uppermoons was never a requirement?

if you'd like to claim daki's neck is tougher to cut trough without her blood demon art (or even with it) you'd need sufficient enough information and reasoning to do so, the trio struggled because daki's obi converts the stress from being dominated by shear to dominated by tensile due to the elastic deformation of the band, which can be overcome by strking faster than what the obi can bend which aelegates the cutting power entirely into overcoming shear strength rather than tensile strength, her neck, even with the obi hax added to it pales in comparison to every single uppermoon


provide the information that led to that conclusion if you're speaking about zenitsu from season 2


that isn't sufficient, that simply implies he has the breath style most suited for speed boosts


not sufficient, both of them are far below the relevant characters in terms of stats him being faster than they are provides no further input on his power standing verse wide other than him being faster than the 2



you've yet to establish to provide a sufficiently enough logical basis to come to that conclusion



any relevant information to prove this?


he is still uppermoon 6, so he can, unless you can bring any form of information that implies he is now stronger than uppermoon 5, he is still uppermoon 6, and thus, weaker than the 5th based on a verse established strenght higherarchy



yes they can, they may grow in power but if the ranking is the same there is little information to prove they now outrank the guy above them, the information we do have is akaza hates koku and doma's guts so had he been stronger he would have replaced them a long time ago doma is a weirdo uppermoon 5 wished akaza was the one to die and upper 4 is a weirdo as well, but he is still upper 4, and based on the in verse established scaling he is stronger than upper 5, if, and that's a very big if, you can provide any sort of information from the series that hints to the opposite you're very much welcome to do so

as i was saying, based on the prior info, the demons wanting to gain muzan's favor as another factor, them nit gunninh for a higher rank is stupid and any power up they got would be meaningless for scaling the characters unless some kind of information the series provided says otherwise

nothing suggests this, and i mean absolutely nothing, is there some kind of information you have that suggests rui is stronger than an amped lower moon 1?



he can't be uppermoon caliber because nothing in the series established that he is, i have no idea where and how you're coming up with the most baseless conclusions but please, show me something that implies or even hints at hairo being uppermoon caliber


right, you're arguing that sanemi was seriously trying to kill rengoku and was giving it his all there?

leaving that aside, it's preposterous to argue that Sanemi is on merely lower Moon 2's level when he does better against Kokushibo than Marked Muichiro is positively absurd, sanemi is able to go toe to toe with Upper Moon 1 without any buffs, and while he doesn't win, he manages to fend off Kokushibo's attacks for an extended period of time.

koku is is the guy that blitzed Muichiro, who blitzes Upper Moon 5, who is in turn fast enough that he would have fodderized any Lower Moon (you can try to argue with this assertion, i'm merely going to bring up the prior points about how speed works)

Unless Sanemi's stats and skill spiked by several orders of magnitude in between Rengoku becoming a Pillar, he could have trivially defeated Rengoku in that fight and just chose not to


the uppermoons are varied in strenght, far too varied in fact, and it shows, already went over the muichiro blitzing shenanniagans, read them again if you want to


only relevant scene i remember the old retired hashiras were from 1 shinjuro after the EDA with based tanjiro, who is in no way shape or form uppermoon caliber, since he was blitzed by based non powered daki, who herself isn't uppermoon caliber, and urokodaki chasing after nezuko who was injected with the drug in the final arc as she was running in her base form, painting and sweating buckets and he still couldn't catch up, how do these implie the 2 are uppermoon caliber?

and sure, tanjiro got stronger, but you can't quanitify how much stronger that is, you can't draw any relevant conclusions besides stating the tanjiro that was dealt with is stronger than the one that got no diffed by base daki




i legit see no evidence, if i missed it, please bring it up




nezuko's BDA is anti demons, yes, it doesn't weaken them, it damages them, being damaged and being weakened are 2 completely different things even when they sound the same, it also negates their regen, but iirc, daki's neck wasn't damaged by the fire (at least the damage wasn't shown) and she still got blitzed



text book definition of the argument of silence you accused me of doing, in fact, him not retracting the statement after easily cutting her neck off again says a lot (she is a weakling)



as was stated, muzan is an expert manipulator and him stating she is the most beautiful already sets red flags for how many of his statements are actually true, half truths are a thing, but this is meaningless


because to come to conclusion, we need some form of information given to us in order to build a case and a sufficient backing to safely conclude something is true, something that i found wholly lacking in all your posts



what information did you use to come up with that conclusion?
because i don't remember anything from the series that states that being on the level of an uppermoon is what you need to be a pillar


IQ=/= BIQ is baseless, based in what, from the demon slayer series did you come to that conclusion?

why is intelligence not correlated with your ability to quickly analyze and moves and come up with countermeasures, it absolutely does, if the series established it isn't then that's a failure on the on the part of the writers


the hashiras aren't relative, they never were, and never will be, your stupid senses shenannigans were already dealt with you literally cannot consistently exchange blows against someone who is operating at speeds several dozen times faster than yours no matter how well you read into the future (something you've yet to prove sanemi can even do)





i'm seeing this stated a lot, but where was this...well, anger nerf, established to be a thing
i don't really remember



you keep claiming the pillars are relative and that's a vital point in your position, without it the entire thing collapses, and you know it, if you don't care stop bringing in the fact that the pillars are relative without addressing my prior assertions


the upper 4th, 5th and 6th postions were empty, nakime took the 4th, the upper 6th and 5th positions were empty, what do you think kaigaku taking the 6th position suggests then?

the only one that can give ranks is muzan, given the fact that you established blood battles are there to rank up and not down what do you think this suggests?


well this is it for now

I'm tired of you writing massive walls of text while not understanding what the topic is about. You mix in stuff from a previous discussion with you and from my discussion with Nehz so it's hard to even reply to this non-sense you wrote. As well as straight up being biased for Nehz by saying he explained it better despite him not even dropping evidence for said translation and me debunking it with the whole japanese raw + viz version. Spoiler: I don't need to prove anything else after sending it (He also just told me to send the trans lol. If you think that my trans is wrong, which is backed up by viz as well, that'd be your burden.) You tell me to prove stuff in a casual discussion while also not proving some claims of yours, wild. Anyway I already addressed most of this with Nehz so I'm gonna ignore this unless you actually pull up in vc.

Edit: He lost + conceded and kept repeating the same debunked arguments lol.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

You mix in stuff from a previous discussion with you and from my discussion with Nehx so it's hard to even reply to this non-sense you wrote. You tell me to prove stuff in a casual discussion while also not proving some claims of yours, wild. Anyway I already addressed most of this with Nehx so I'm gonna ignore this unless you actually pull up in vc.

You've got my name wrong.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

You tell me to prove stuff in a casual discussion while also not proving some claims of yours, wild. Anyway I already addressed most of this with Nehx so I'm gonna ignore this unless you actually pull up in vc.

You missed one instance.

 

[Tengouk]

You missed one instance.

Should be fine now.

 

[speedster352]

You missed one instance.

[R1M4] 1st Bane of Buildings Tournament - Luchadora vs. Tanjiro (3-0-0)

Welcome to the Fourth Match of the First Round of the 1st Bane of Buildings Tournament! (Bracelet) (Event Leaderboard) On the blue corner, we have Luchadora, submitted by @Javenplayz253! On the red corner, we have Tanjiro Kamado, submitted by @speedster352! Duel 4, let's go! Luchadora is...

vsbattles.com

 

[speedster352]

[R1M4] 1st Bane of Buildings Tournament - Luchadora vs. Tanjiro (3-0-0)

Welcome to the Fourth Match of the First Round of the 1st Bane of Buildings Tournament! (Bracelet) (Event Leaderboard) On the blue corner, we have Luchadora, submitted by @Javenplayz253! On the red corner, we have Tanjiro Kamado, submitted by @speedster352! Duel 4, let's go! Luchadora is...

vsbattles.com

Calling all demon slayer supporters

 

[V999]

Yoriichi VS Homura (0-0-0)

Kimetsu no Yaiba VS Senran Kagura • Speed are equalized • Burst Homura is used • Crimson Homura is restricted • Yoriichi : 2 Tons, likely higher • Homura : 7.61 Tons, higher with Frantic Mode • Location : Bamboo Forest Yoriichi : Homura : Inconclusive :

vsbattles.com

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

so about the bomb....

 

[57Dev]

Anyone calculating the anime version of the explosion ?

 

[HelloThere1089]

Anyone calculating the anime version of the explosion ?

I have not kept up with the anime, but does the anime version seem better or worse.

 

[57Dev]

I have not kept up with the anime, but does the anime version seem better or worse.

Wayyy Better.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Wayyy Better.

Does it scale to anybody? And what ballpark is it? I just saw the clip and seemed like city block to me.

 

[Tengouk]

I have not kept up with the anime, but does the anime version seem better or worse.

It's not necessarily better feat-wise. It just shows the destruction better compared to the manga.

Does it scale to anybody? And what ballpark is it? I just saw the clip and seemed like city block to me.

Nobody really scales to it. Prime Muzan in the manga kind of just blocks it but it still takes quite a few chunks out of his flesh. The anime kind of exaggerated the damage cuz it tears off his legs n' stuff. (Manga Muzan might partially scale off it) Idk though. If I had to eyeball I'd guess it at MCB-Small City although Small City might push it. I'll prob try it sometime.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

What a great episode, can’t wait to see the fights… In like a year… In a movie theater…

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I used viz media. Which is also the correct version. The raw states; "and buried 7 strong hashira". Idk what anime or manga you read but that's what I got out.


It wouldn't need as much effort yet still be hella much effort? There's 9 steps + Yorrichi doll's training ground (ngl, the doll seems to be also used independently regardless of hashira-training as seen with Mui) each with different requirements for each hashira. There is a need to separate them unless you want them to waste time during training when they can just move onto different trainings first. Which makes factually more sense as they don't have unlimited time so there's no way they're waiting here for each other's turn lol. Just because they're in the same group and do similar trainings doesn't mean they now know their strength, that's not how it works. The manga also shows this multiple times.


No, he wasn't wrong. The training lasts that long but Muichiro literally broke the whole thing thus it was faster than expected. That's not indicative that he didn't know it. Why couldn't he just have fought it like that without using the mechanic thing every time lol. Doesn't really defeat anything. He didn't need to learn how to use the key, he got it from the kid and used it on the doll. Literally what the kid says. His memory issues also play a factor in this as well. Mitsuri thing happens in the novel lol.


Doesn't defeat anything, Muzan's still truthfully speaking to her here from the way of explaining how demons function to the point of telling her she's grown more powerful than ever, as well as being the most beautiful creature which is objectively true. No reason to suggest he trolled and lied about a single word.


Not everyone sees it like that and I don't think I need to change my way of talking just cuz of a non-issue.


He cut it down and suggested based off resistance that he's weaker than him. I don't think he ever states he needs Hinokami Kagura, utilizing it in battle doesn't suggest he was forced or needed to. He doesn't say or imply such thing either. It's like saying Shinobu needed to use Insect Breathing on the Spider Sister based off her utilization, which would be straight up incorrect. Enmu's still weaker after a blood-amp + train-fuse as the statement includes the entirety of Enmu's capability and his rank don't matter anyway. Tanjiro getting stronger is irrelevant as he admits inferiority to Rui regardless if he's gotten stronger. This is supported by how Rui held back against Tanjiro and later got so mad that he got straight up nerfed, so no anti-feat here.


Good thing Hairo is already dead when he made that statement. Why does he need to be stated "abnormally strong for a LM" None of them at the battlefield have knowledge about this. There ain't even need to be any such a statement. That'd just be an argument from silence. We don't know how long it took for UM's to get to their rank. Gyutaro and Daki iirc just took 12 years for their position and even then they're stronger than their rank suggests. Neither do we have information on how long Hairo took to gain LM2 and how long he stayed in that position. All we know is that he was a low-tier demon when he got bullied by Shinjuro and was LM2 when Mitsuri got into the corps which she didn't when she was 17. Why can't Hairo be massively talented anyway? His hax had tremendous potential. I don't rely on his LM rank. You brought up how "he struggled with a LM" as if his rank matters and is equivalent to his strength. Idk what you define as man-handle but for me that's what man-handle is. Sanemi's getting pushed in close-combat due to not leaving a single scratch on Rengoku nor can he actually tag him since Rengoku blocked each hit.


Already explained that a requirement for a hashira is literally being able to keep up and damage UM's 1vs1 and scale to a doll that's UM lvl lol. Stated this literally multiple times so I ain't gonna repeat this again. I never said he's incapable what are you talking about? Why is an intelligence downgrade if he doesn't think about analyzing their strength that doesn't correlate at all. I have no idea what intelligence ranking he has on this site but if he's high I suggest that it gets removed. He was never shown to be smart outside of battle. IQ =/= BIQ. Explained why they are several times as well now.


I never said it's never used... I said it's rarely used and doesn't function as how you all depict it does. It's not accurate. It doesn't work as a 100% identical source of knowing how strong an enemy/teammate is. We see this multiple times, Spider Sister, Daki Vs Zenitsu, Mui Vs Koku, Tengen Vs Gyutaro. In some battles they also never analyze based off presence that doesn't suggest they're stupid or whatever. They also just don't utilize it all the time even in times where it's in favor. I see no reason why Tengen would do it towards a teammate when he doesn't do it against insanely strong enemies. Meeting someone doesn't = to knowing their true extent. Tanjiro is a perfect example. Guy literally trains with Giyu yet failed to actually know how skilled and strong Giyu is. Simply meeting up with someone doesn't give them full knowledge. Yea, I already explained how they don't need to meet each other during these.


Man...How does this suggest she's not UM lvl?? This just suggests she's weaker than Gyutaro. Like I said no mention from him of her not being UM caliber after she gets healed. She's just stated weaker than Gyutaro which I also explained thousand times already is factual. Daki not meaning anything to Tengen in terms of power was established several times. This doesn't suggest she's weaker than like Akaza or sum because Akaza can be a fraud and useless to him as well. Tengen's already capable of blitzing hashira tiers which are mostly relative.


Why not? He only underestimated them because of the anger nerf. You gotta read the statement again. All the demons fall short on Muzan's hope this don't mean nothing lmao. Atleast he expected he can take down hashira if he regains his power.


Hantengu never got stronger. This is just in reference to spawning new stronger creatures from his own strength. He never gains new strength, just his own that he already posseses. If this was actually true then literal death-bed Hantengu would've gained far more strength to convert it into his regeneration but instead he had to rely on eating humans to gain strength. Obviously contracting your interpretation.


None of these prove what you said? He never recruits them into the kizuki, he seeks these humans out, turns them into demons and lets them rank up by themselves. Douma literally suggests that Akaza wasn't ranked up by Muzan but rather had to do that himself which is literally how it works. I still don't see how this connects to Muzan ranking up when someone gets stronger. So far the only evidence you got is that he removes weak demons from the kizuki lol. Never once does he rank them up themselves. It would go against the blood battles which aren't there to rank down but to rank up. What even proves Nakime and Kaigaku ranked up through Muzan? Why couldn't they have done this by themselves.


Telling them about kizuki works as well. That doesn't suggest he ranks them up. Databook states his power weakened due to not consuming humans so yea he did get weaker.


Nah, he's fodder. He's weaker than Spider Dad by far. A whole perception blitz lvl below him via Inosuke ~ Tanjiro ~ Kyogai relativity. Kyogai also got so weak to the point where he can't even kill 2 average demons despite whole drum hax and absorption/demons eating each other. He definitely got weaker and it's also just stated that he did.

Anyway, I think we can move on from this derail and just move onto Tengen's statement regarding Daki which doesn't defeat my scaling since she's nerfed at that point in time.

I know it's been a while but I've been busy with some other things in my life that I need or want to do and I still intend on eventually answering this when the timing fits for me and I feel more like it.

 

[Passersby]

Does it scale to anybody? And what ballpark is it? I just saw the clip and seemed like city block to me.

I would say all the uppermoons, considering muzan doesn't seem to be the durable type as seen when gyomei crushed his skull and neck when unmarked but failed to do the same with kokushibo even with a mark

Considering he was still overpowering all the pillars he was still decently strong and his regen was quite potent so weakened or not, the fact that even with such stats the pillars cut trough him like a hot knife trough butter implys he doesn't subscribe to the consistent showing of the stronger the demon the more durable the neck, he seems more focused on regen speed considering he got over his weakness to the sun using via his internal biology

but interpretations may differ ig

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Does it scale to anybody? And what ballpark is it? I just saw the clip and seemed like city block to me.

Muzan should downscale, since the majority of his body tanked it, similar to sukuna tanking hollow purple XXL edition

 

[57Dev]

Muzan should downscale, since the majority of his body tanked it, similar to sukuna tanking hollow purple XXL edition

Didn't Sukuna nullify HP with Domain Amplification. So he the attacks power didn't really hit him

 

[Arkenis]

Didn't Sukuna nullify HP with Domain Amplification. So he the attacks power didn't really hit him

Bruh what

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Didn't Sukuna nullify HP with Domain Amplification. So he the attacks power didn't really hit him

I was talking about the damage they received

 

[57Dev]

I was talking about the damage they received

Yeah but Sukuna used Domain Amplification to counter it

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah but Sukuna used Domain Amplification to counter it

You're thinking of Red, and the attack still did damage, it was just reduced.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Yeah but Sukuna used Domain Amplification to counter it

so? The damage taken similar to the damage muzan took, i'm not talking about scaling

 

[57Dev]

Oh the damage. Ok.

 

[Arkenis]

Akaza compares him to Marked Tanjiro and Giyu. Tengen believes him, Muichiro and Gyomei to be stronger than him)
Can I know what chapters this is from?

 

[Ped2018]

Akaza compares him to Marked Tanjiro and Giyu. Tengen believes him, Muichiro and Gyomei to be stronger than him)
Can I know what chapters this is from?

What character?

 

[Arkenis]

What character?

It's on Kyojuro's profile

 

[Ped2018]

Akaza compares him to Marked Tanjiro and Giyu

Chapter 152, when Akaza asks Giyu to become a demon

It's the only thing that maybe implies this

Tengen believes him, Muichiro and Gyomei to be stronger than him

No idea about this

 

[57Dev]

Akaza compares him to Marked Tanjiro and Giyu. Tengen believes him, Muichiro and Gyomei to be stronger than him)
Can I know what chapters this is from?

Tengen believes them to be truly gifted when Gyutaro calls out how he is gifted with everything (height, body, looks, wives). I thinks about talent more that strength.

 

[Arkenis]

Tengen believes them to be truly gifted when Gyutaro calls out how he is gifted with everything (height, body, looks, wives). I thinks about talent more that strength.

Whats the chapter?