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[Demon Slayer] Massive Upgrade

FelpeXDopZ said:
I think no one here is arguing these characters are MHS+ because of their breathings techniques, but because the novels and databook state they move at "lightning speeds".



Because she was in the middle of the air and therefore unable to dodge, she was also unable to block as she got hit by an AOE attack, plus she was moving towards Zohakuten, thus from her perspective sound waves were moving faster than sound by an unknown magnitude (relative speed). She was still able to react though, as Zohakuten explicitly stated she "tensed up all her muscles" so she could resist the attack.
Curiously enough, every time someone got hit by these sound-waves, they were either in midair, or restrained by Hantengu.


He didn't, he literally blocked several dozen bullets after being shot by surprise, then he sliced a few of these bullets at the same time he was dodging and running through them, then he either dodged or blocked (the manga isn't clear enough to tell which one was it) more of them at point-blank. The only moment he kind of struggled with bullets was when he was charging towards Hairo and he pulled a gatling-gun out of nowhere, it should be noted that by that time Rengoku had taken some important damage from the explosion he tanked at point-blank, plus the fact he was running towards Hairo implies again the bullets were moving faster from Rengoku’s perspective, but even so he blocked a few of these and then we see him advancing towards Hairo while cutting the bullets in the process. I’d say the gaiden actually shows Rengoku had little to no problem when it comes to blocking or dodging bullets.


I think this is a hasty generalization. Considering Akaza was impressed by the fact that Rengoku could restrain him, I’d say he was frightened because he didn't knew if he'd manage to run away in time. So, he was most likely not worried about the speed of the sunrise, but if he’d manage to free himself before the sunlight could reach him.


There is little to no information on what happened there, we first see Muzan talking with Ubuyashiki, then the mansion is exploding, nothing else. We don't know whether the mansion was filled with explosives, which would mean Muzan was surrounded and therefore escaping was impossible; nor how far away was Muzan from the epicenter of the explosion, which is a vital point as the speed of the shockwave is highly dependent on the value of this parameter. There is also the fact that special gunpowder does exists on the verse, so there would be no reason to believe they didn’t used that against Muzan.
The same way you need solid evidence and information to upgrade a character or verse, you need solid evidence and information to do the contrary (downgrade them), and there is simply not enough evidence nor information about what happened when Muzan got caught into the explosion of Ubuyashiki’s mansion.
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Another thing to note about Hantengu's soundwaves, is that they move faster than normal via demon aura. Tanjiro states against Rui that his aura caused the air to become thicker (denser) and heavier. Sound travels faster through denser mediums.
 
Nice work on finding all the translations for lightning speed statements. While I do appreciate the consistency with which they are given, I’d be more comfortable getting more calcs to substantiate such statements before we actually implement some upgrades, since “as fast as lightning” is a common hyperbolic simile. Until then I’ll stay neutral.
 
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Epyriel said:
Nice work on finding all the translations for lightning speed statements. While I do appreciate the consistency with which they are given, I’d be more comfortable getting more calcs to substantiate such statements before we actually implement some upgrades, since “as fast a lightning” is a common hyperbolic simile. Until then I’ll stay neutral.
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In my opinion, I obviously agree that "Lightning Speed" or "Lightning Fast" are common Hyperbole, but for me it's a little different in fiction if we see the context. That is, what makes, for example, let's take: "That car ran with lightning speed." Obviously, this is a Hyperbole, why? because actually a car cannot go as fast as lightning, but the sentence on a grammatical level means that the car actually has Lightning Speed. In fiction, obviously there can be Hyperboles, but for me a Hyperbole also works differently in fiction, in Hyperbole it is made to be understood by the author, and also put it in a Databook where the main purpose is to explain concepts, techniques, etc. a verse, it is already much more unthinkable that it is a Hyperbole, and I repeat, what would make it a Hyperbole would be that it could not go at that speed, when in reality in fiction, but especially in DS they have already shown feats that go beyond logic, so for me prove an Hyperbole in fiction is impossible if it is not made clear by the author. However, to support that statement, there is a SLOW MOTION calc for Tanjiro, which scales him to MSH+ many chapters before these statements, also there are feats where they dodge lightning, so for me we can take the statements as valid. I also don't know if it can help, but there is a statement where it is said that Zenitsu absorbs the energy of lightning, in the character book
 
KnyRaizn said:
In my opinion, I obviously agree that "Lightning Speed" or "Lightning Fast" are common Hyperbole, but for me it's a little different in fiction if we see the context. That is, what makes, for example, let's take: "That car ran with lightning speed." Obviously, this is a Hyperbole, why? because actually a car cannot go as fast as lightning, but the sentence on a grammatical level means that the car actually has Lightning Speed. In fiction, obviously there can be Hyperboles, but for me a Hyperbole also works differently in fiction, in Hyperbole it is made to be understood by the author, and also put it in a Databook where the main purpose is to explain concepts, techniques, etc. a verse, it is already much more unthinkable that it is a Hyperbole, and I repeat, what would make it a Hyperbole would be that it could not go at that speed, when in reality in fiction, but especially in DS they have already shown feats that go beyond logic, so for me prove an Hyperbole in fiction is impossible if it is not made clear by the author. However, to support that statement, there is a SLOW MOTION calc for Tanjiro, which scales him to MSH+ many chapters before these statements, also there are feats where they dodge lightning, so for me we can take the statements as valid. I also don't know if it can help, but there is a statement where it is said that Zenitsu absorbs the energy of lightning, in the character book
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The speed recalc for that slo-mo calc isn’t accepted yet but that does look promising. However I should point out that Mach 1119 is still slower than lightning. And the SSV lightning dodging calcs all tend to be around half lightning speed (so not even MHS+).

Ultimately if we do accept upgrades to MHS+ I still think it should more be on the basis of the relevant calcs (like perhaps that slo-mo clac) with “lighting speed” statements being at best corollary evidence.
 
Epyriel said:
Nice work on finding all the translations for lightning speed statements. While I do appreciate the consistency with which they are given, I’d be more comfortable getting more calcs to substantiate such statements before we actually implement some upgrades, since “as fast a lightning” is a common hyperbolic simile. Until then I’ll stay neutral.
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I don't see why there has to be calcs for MHS+ rating when the statements are pretty much enough and in large numbers, giving enough consistency already. I also don't agree with stating they're common hyperbolic similes as I've yet to see a statement within a fictional verse that uses it in a hyperbolic fashion nor it being okay to just assume it is one without backing. Everyone says that supposedly it's common but I've never seen it being common at all. I already got a few MHS+ calcs, which I'll post in a bit, but still.
 
KnyRaizn said:
However, to support that statement, there is a SLOW MOTION calc for Tanjiro, which scales him to MSH+ many chapters before these statements, also there are feats where they dodge lightning, so for me we can take the statements as valid.
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Seems that they, nor the original calc, took the time frame into consideration so I redid the calc myself and got Mach 320. A nice supporting calc for MHS Demon Slayer, but still not direct proof of MHS+.
 
Tengouk said:
I also don't agree with stating they're common hyperbolic similes as I've yet to see a statement within a fictional verse that uses it in a hyperbolic fashion nor it being okay to just assume it is one without backing. Everyone says that supposedly it's common but I've never seen it being common at all.
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Ever heard of Lightning McQueen?

Tengouk said:
I already got a few MHS+ calcs, which I'll post in a bit, but still.
Click to expand...
Look forward to seeing them! But until then, I’ll stay neutral for these MHS+ upgrades.
 
Epyriel said:
Sembra che loro, né il calcolo originale, abbiano preso in considerazione il periodo di tempo Ho rifatto il calcolo da solo e ho ottenuto Mach 320. Un bel calcolo di supporto per MHS Demon Slayer, ma ancora non prova diretta di MHS +.
Click to expand...
Non credo che un calcolo sia necessariamente necessario per portarlo a MSH +, il fatto che abbiano avuto un'impresa MSH molti capitoli prima è già un'impresa di supporto
 
Epyriel said:
And the hyperbole of being as fast as lightning is so synonymous with him they even named a whole video game after it: Cars: Fast as Lightning
Click to expand...
Yes, but that film is based on a race of cars, which in principle cannot go beyond a certain speed, so saying that a car is as fast as lightning is obviously a Hyperbole which only serves to emphasize the film etc, like when in advertisements they say: "the best product ever", that too is a Hyperbole made to emphasize the product, here too, it is a Hyperbole to emphasize the film, which is very different, because a Hyperbole does not contain contexts, and it explanations in most cases, it's just a ridiculous statement. An example in DS, Tengen stated to be the god of holidays, that is a Hyperbole made clear, also it is made by a character, this gives more consistency on the fact that it is a Hyperbole, and I repeat, a Hyperbole is made clear to be precisely a Hyperbole, a comic and humorous context, in fact Hyperbole by definition, and how to use it in writing, the author must make it clear that he is intending it in a Hyperbolic way.
Let's take the last example, you look out the window and see a bicycle race, you see someone going very fast, and you exclaim that he was going as fast as the wind, that is clearly a Hyperbole, for two reasons.

1. You are objectively emphasizing the speed of that bike rider, because you saw him going fast from your perspective

2. A bike cannot objectively go as fast as the wind

- Zenitsu's statement is very different, first of all it is not a character who comments on Zenitsu's speed, but it is directly a narrative statement, and if someone says "But the author is a person like us", obviously yes he is, but he is not commenting, he is explaining, the movement of Zenitsu, which is different, and also a narrative statement in general, obviously it can make rhetorical figures, but it is already less probable from my point of view, because the narrative tends to explain in many cases. And for example in a Databook, where the objective is to explain concepts of the verse etc it is unlikely to be a Hyperbole

- It is not impossible for Zenitsu to go to MSH+. The DS characters have the feat of the fact that they can already go faster than sound, but in general reach absurd speeds, so already the physics is contradicted and reduces the possibility of the fact that it is a Hyperbole, since the LS Hyperbolas are based on the fact that they cannot go at that speed on a physical level, and since we cannot know the author's intentions for me we can take the slightly more probable choice, which is that it is not a Hyperbole.
If we want to add more consistency it is the fact that Zenitsu, in a very narrative way, is represented just as fast as lightning, and furthermore, following the amp that gives the mark which is apparently 10x, would take Tanjiro from MSH to MSH+ and all the verse. So i think the statements are pretty consistents.
 
KnyRaizn said:
Yes, but that film is based on a race of cars, which in principle cannot go beyond a certain speed, so saying that a car is as fast as lightning is obviously a Hyperbole which only serves to emphasize the film etc, like when in advertisements they say: "the best product ever", that too is a Hyperbole made to emphasize the product, here too, it is a Hyperbole to emphasize the film, which is very different, because a Hyperbole does not contain contexts, and it explanations in most cases, it's just a ridiculous statement.
Click to expand...
That is all true, however the metics by which you would decide whether or not a case like Zenitsu being as fast as lightning is hyperbolic or not would be something like calc consistency, however by that point you could just make the upgrades on the basis of the calcs alone.

This is why I say it is best to leave such statements as corollary evidence to something like calcs which we can be more confident in.

KnyRaizn said:
- It is not impossible for Zenitsu to go to MSH+. The DS characters have the feat of the fact that they can already go faster than sound, but in general reach absurd speeds, so already the physics is contradicted and reduces the possibility of the fact that it is a Hyperbole, since the LS Hyperbolas are based on the fact that they cannot go at that speed on a physical level, and since we cannot know the author's intentions for me we can take the slightly more probable choice, which is that it is not a Hyperbole.
If we want to add more consistency it is the fact that Zenitsu, in a very narrative way, is represented just as fast as lightning, and furthermore, following the amp that gives the mark which is apparently 10x, would take Tanjiro from MSH to MSH+ and all the verse. So i think the statements are pretty consistents.
Click to expand...
It is definitely plausible some DS characters reach MHS+, but saying even Season 1 Zenitsu reaches this I feel needs more substantiation. For the higher tiers of the verse I actually recently did my own recalc which substantiates MHS+ from the Mitsuri feat, but I will leave that for a separate CRT I’ll make later when it and some other calcs get evaluated.
 
Epyriel said:
That is all true, however the metics by which you would decide whether or not a case like Zenitsu being as fast as lightning is hyperbolic or not would be something like calc consistency, however by that point you could just make the upgrades on the basis of the calcs alone.

This is why I say it is best to leave such statements as corollary evidence to something like calcs which we can be more confident in.


It is definitely plausible some DS characters reach MHS+, but saying even Season 1 Zenitsu reaches this I feel needs more substantiation. For the higher tiers of the verse I actually recently did my own recalc which substantiates MHS+ from the Mitsuri feat, but I will leave that for a separate CRT I’ll make later when it and some other calcs get evaluated.
Click to expand...
I agree, I think that at this point we have to wait to evaluate the calculations and the mods will then decide the fate of the Thread. However, I still want to consider the mark amp because it would take it to MSH+ regardless.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Yeah I maintain that "lightning-fast" here is a simple hyperbole that doesn't actually denote MHS+ speed
Click to expand...
That'd be a positive claim. Could you prove as to why it is? Nothing suggests it's close to hyperbolic. Lightning-fast isn't inherently hyperbolic within fiction.
 
Epyriel said:
And the hyperbole of being as fast as lightning is so synonymous with him they even named a whole video game after it: Cars: Fast as Lightning
Click to expand...
That's a title of a video game. It doesn't say he's as fast as lightning. Also even if I steelman this, I don't see the issue with him being possibly MHS+ or it being provably a hyperbole nor does it suggest Zenitsu's are.

Fast of lightning and allat is just a simile. There's no other way to compare a fictional character to lightning speed other than use these type of similes.
 
Tengouk said:
That'd be a positive claim. Could you prove as to why it is? Nothing suggests it's close to hyperbolic. Lightning-fast isn't inherently hyperbolic within fiction.
Click to expand...
Yes it is. That's a common phrase used to denote high speed, and currently, no accepted calcs actually support this tiering. You need to prove why it's literal
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Yes it is. That's a common phrase used to denote high speed, and currently, no accepted calcs actually support this tiering. You need to prove why it's literal
Click to expand...
Are you gonna prove it's hyperbolic within this context or do I have do apply hitchen's razor to this argument. There doesn't need to be accepted calcs at MHS+. Burden switching is crazy. I proved lightning speed Zen and you're taking the positive stange that's it's hyperbolic. Go ahead and prove it rq.
 
Damage3245 said:
The lack of supporting feats / calcs is a good reason to be skeptical here, yeah.
Click to expand...
Lack of feats and calc isn't anywhere close to a good reason to be skeptical of outright lightning speed statements. Simply asserting it as hyperbole doesn't matter. It's a positive claim. I can just dismiss it.
 
Tengouk said:
Are you gonna prove it's hyperbolic within this context or do I have do apply hitchen's razor to this argument. There doesn't need to be accepted calcs at MHS+. Burden switching is crazy. I proved lightning speed Zen and you're taking the positive stange that's it's hyperbolic. Go ahead and prove it rq.
Click to expand...
You took the positive stance that this is literal, which I gave the negative stance of "it's not." Don't play this game with me
Tengouk said:
The statements just upscale and you could never prove they cap at 0.08 sec reaction speed. So at best this is a lowball of the verse's second strongest.
Click to expand...
  1. "Prove" what? This is literally just standards, because anything else would be calc stacking and thus not be allowed. Our standards also don't allow the previous 1/220 second reaction time for any calcs btw (and even then, not even that is MHS+)
  2. It's very concerning if Zenitsu is so much faster than what the best feat in the series performed by a character normally much faster than him suggests, yes
 
CloverDragon03 said:
You took the positive stance that this is literal, which I gave the negative stance of "it's not." Don't play this game with me
Click to expand...
No, my positive stance was proving that Zen is stated lightning. I fulfilled that burden. You're now taking the positive stance that it's hyperbole in order to dismiss it. If you wanna run this, add me on cord Tengouk7716.

CloverDragon03 said:
  1. "Prove" what? This is literally just standards, because anything else would be calc stacking and thus not be allowed. Our standards also don't allow the previous 1/220 second reaction time for any calcs btw (and even then, not even that is MHS+)
Click to expand...
Go ahead and justify this claim that anything else would be calc stacking. I'll be waiting lmfao. SOS reaction speed works too. Mind you, you cherry picked the WORST calc for the top tiers to sound more convincing but guess what? Two of the low/mid tiers have TWO far higher accepted MHS calcs which you purposely didn't use. Give it up man. Muzan simply upscales from this.

CloverDragon03 said:
  1. It's very concerning if Zenitsu is so much faster than what the best feat in the series performed by a character normally much faster than him suggests, yes
Click to expand...
It's the best feat if you ignore and dismiss all the statements by claiming hyperbole and want to be dishonest by using a HS calc and not two of the MHS calcs. Don't see why Muzan would go all out here either💀
 
Tengouk said:
No, my positive stance was proving that Zen is stated lightning. I fulfilled that burden. You're now taking the positive stance that it's hyperbole in order to dismiss it. If you wanna run this, add me on cord Tengouk7716.
Click to expand...
I'm not entertaining your Discord shenanigans. I'm just gonna say again to not play this game, because I've explained why this is a negative stance. You're better off trying to actually prove why it's literal
Tengouk said:
Go ahead and justify this claim that anything else would be calc stacking. I'll be waiting lmfao. SOS reaction speed works too. Mind you, you cherry picked the WORST calc for the top tiers to sound more convincing but guess what? Two of the low/mid tiers have TWO far higher accepted MHS calcs which you purposely didn't use. Give it up man. Muzan simply upscales from this.
Click to expand...
The 1/220 second fighter pilot timeframe was deemed unusable. See this thread.

And then pulling out anything else like, for example, using some sort of reaction time based on the demon's scaled speed... That's blatant calc stacking by our standards. I hope that you didn't actually expect that saying "Give it up man" would actually get me to go "Yeah your burden shifting and fallacious arguments are totally right actually, I give up."

Also, about those two feats... One is Muichiro's cutting fish feat, which we don't use anymore, and the other is Tanjiro's lightning dodge (aside from potentially being an outlier, who knows) literally goes against your claim that Zenitsu is as fast as lightning when the feat itself is demonstrating that someone comparable to him is slower than it

I am still in disagreement of using such statements of being "lightning-fast" as literally being the speed of lightning

Edit: You're also suggesting that this MHS+ rating should apply to the literal first arc Zenitsu appears in, which is even worse considering that Demon Slayer's best feats come from the latter half of the series
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I'm not entertaining your Discord shenanigans. I'm just gonna say again to not play this game, because I've explained why this is a negative stance. You're better off trying to actually prove why it's literal
Click to expand...
Nope that's not how it works. You explained it and I debunked said explanation by giving actual reasoning instead of just claiming it's my burden.

CloverDragon03 said:
The 1/220 second fighter pilot timeframe was deemed unusable. See this thread.
Click to expand...
So? I don't care.

CloverDragon03 said:
And then pulling out anything else like, for example, using some sort of reaction time based on the demon's scaled speed... That's blatant calc stacking by our standards. I hope that you didn't actually expect that saying "Give it up man" would actually get me to go "Yeah your burden shifting and fallacious arguments are totally right actually, I give up."
Click to expand...
Are you gonna ignore what I just stated? I told you to prove your claim "anything else is calc stack". Go fetch me a scan saying this or hitchen's razor might have to clear your argument. Justify the claim that my arguments are fallacious and burden shifting. So far I've debunked everything you claimed.

CloverDragon03 said:
Also, about those two feats... One is Muichiro's cutting fish feat, which we don't use anymore, and the other is Tanjiro's lightning dodge (aside from potentially being an outlier, who knows)
Click to expand...
Are you gonna prove as to why it's not used. Give me a thread since I literally asked within these few minutes of proof and never received such. It's crazy how you jump from hyperbole to outlier once you get confronted by an actual high speed calc. You're funny. Either way, positive claim too. Why is it an outlier. Go ahead and prove it. I'll be waiting.
CloverDragon03 said:
literally goes against your claim that Zenitsu is as fast as lightning when the feat itself is demonstrating that someone comparable to him is slower than it
Click to expand...
Why is he slower than lightning when all he does is cover the distance to Genya and push him. He's not trynna do all kinds of movements during this timeframe. It goes against your cherry picked evidence, btw.

CloverDragon03 said:
I am still in disagreement of using such statements of being "lightning-fast" as literally being the speed of lightning
Click to expand...
Can't actually defend their claims, constantly fails burden of proof, burden switching, cherry picking but insists on this dishonest stance.

Sure, you can keep this stance doesn't mean your reasonings aren't completely fallacious and dishonest.
 
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