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Also, there's solid evidence towards 1-A purely within Persona itself, though I doubt they'll argue Outerversal Joker (nor do they need to, really).
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DEATH BATTLE! Discussion Thread (2024–2025) (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)
- Thread starter TMaakkonen
- Start date
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I think this post really does nail my general thoughts about this whole matchup.
The fact that Giorno does have chances where he can win, but Joker has way more arguments in his favor that would have him winning if they ran the calculations a hundred times. In my opinion RTZ alone shouldn't be enough to fully give him a win considering the vast array of other factors Joker has in his favor.
And I can't think of any other Death Battles where a single facet of a person's powers/abilities was the sole reason that gave them the win. Closest ones I can think are probably Booster Gold's shield, but he also had the speed advantage there, and the whole 'Batman can't figure out the Panther Cowl in an off-the-cuff, no prep-time fight' but Black Panther also took the strength and speed advantages there due to the Heart Shaped Herb.
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Mewtwo literally beat Shadow only because of memory hax.
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While true, I think it kinda doesn't count because... Well it was a spite episode and notorious for being badly researched.
ShrekAnakin
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Their opinions towards the scaling, and even format of the show have changed a lot over the years too. So I don't really count shit from Season 3 as representative of Modern DB as easily.
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Giorno can also get speed of they believe GER is infinite speed while Joker is only finite.
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I believe they'll put both at similar Immeasurable speeds due to GER working in the deleted time and Joker and the Phantom Thieves fighting in places that exist outside of time and normal space. And then we run into the Flash vs Archie Sonic thing where Joker can potentially take the advantage with his buffs/debuffs.
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Does DB allow & use such logic to justify Immeasurable speed?
Heck, does it give Immeasurable Speed the same weight we do?
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I highly doubt they will give Joker immeasurable speed.
ZeNoviceArtist
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Speaking of Shadow, how's the new Sonadow Generations game?
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I know they've used it for some of the Marvel and DC fighters in the past, and while I'm not saying that any of the P5 crew are scaling to comic heralds the argument has been used before. I believe they even did that for Dragonborn vs Chosen Undead, but that's trying to remember off the top of my head.
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I understand the sentiment, but if RTZ really did give Giorno the win (not saying it does, I think Joker resists it), then surely it shouldn't matter if it's the only thing that allows him to do so. It's his ability, it's part of his kit.
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Oh make no mistake, I get that too. If DB comes to the conclusion that RTZ is the one ability powerful enough to offset everything that Joker can use to give him the win I'll disagree but I'll understand. I was just coming from a place of how DB has done battles with people who have the 'One super great ability the other doesn't have' in the past.
Now if Giorno is the one to have that power or not is what we're going to have to see.
ZeNoviceArtist
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I think Giorno wins because he represents more homosexuality.
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Damn you got me there. #Giornosweep
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I think the thing with GER is that it is very powerful, at least I think it is. But it's also such a weird, high level ability that it often gets put against people that it would have business trying to deal with otherwise.
Like, let's look at Goku as an example. If we're going off what that document said (which I'm not sure I agree with, but for the sake of argument), then Goku gets completely clowned by GER. It can just kill him and there's nothing he can do about it, despite massively outscaling it otherwise.
But then on the flip, once you reach this high of a level, you do more often run into characters who at least have an argument for being able to resist it. Such as, well, Joker.
Basically, I'm saying that I think GER is very powerful, even if the people it gets put up against often make it look not so. Gotta give it it's flowers, ya know?
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Yeah, totally. I never meant to come across that I thought GER wasn't powerful. I totally understand the insane hax its got, and for most other fights it's 100% the instant wincon vs debate finisher. This is also a reason I kinda think Giorno doesn't have nearly as many matchups as other Jojo protags, because the only other person I've seen put up against him was Touma from Index and that was a single fight on a DB fan wiki.
It's also my Persona bias definitely poking through when discussing it, but I try to be more fair when it comes to listening to the arguments for how powers interact. I'd love to see Giorno shine in the fight along with my boy Joker. I'm still a fan of Jojo despite not following it after a while, so my arguments aren't coming from a place of 'lol get rekt Jojofans'. I just truly believe that Joker's go this fight, but it is still a close fight and debate.
(Also tangentially related but I feel like the Goku argument would actually be resolved with 'he just powers up and outhaxes with sheer power like all his other fights' which is a thing you can say but I digress)
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Strong evidence? It's definitive evidence, what? We quite literally have the protagonist of SMT IF show up in the series, we see the Kuzunoha agency in it as well. Its in the same cosmology, it's super simple.
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Yeah, it's much more explicit than what my wording would imply. People who want to split Persona from the rest of Megami Tensei are delusional.
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Oh yeah, I get what you were trying to say, no sweat. I just wanted to give GER a bit of credit for being able to even have an argument against an opponent of this level.
I'm gonna be blunt and say that I think that GER just kinda sucks in the very specific context of VS Battle debate. It just doesn't make for a very interesting MU, especially if you accept DB's interpretation of it where it's a wet paper towel and you either resist it or die with no counterplay.
I'm actually a fan of both as well. Though I was actually into Persona before I was into JoJo, if you could believe it. And yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you were like that, my apologies, you seem like a really nice guy.
As the resident Goku glazer, that's a level of glaze even I don't think I'd be willing to offer him lol (unless we're talking about DBH Goku, maybe).
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I'm pretty sure I remember someone posting an interview earlier in this thread from around the time Persona 3 came out that just blatantly states it, as well.
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Well that's just for those who think Person 3 and beyond is in a different world then the previous two (three) games. Which, in all honesty, is even crazier than denying the connection between Persona and the rest of MT. Especially when you get references to the casts of the previous games through the TV in Iwotodai Dorm.
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Also wouldn't he still be able to summon King Crimson even while dead anyway? We see Kira summon Killer Queen after having his head squashed despite being a ghost at that point.
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Kira is a bit iffy since while he does die and summon Killer Queen in the alley, in DMQ I don't think we ever see him summon his stand.
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No apology needed! I didn't mean to imply your implication, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same level in the discussion. Much appreciated, my guy,
I really do agree with this too. Kinda ironic that I feel like Giorno has better matchup potential when he's limited to just GE base form, but I also know that it'd suck as a Giorno fan to have his late-game powerup and the thing he's most known for not considered for a matchup at all.
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GER not doing any physical damage is a plus in this matchup because it means Joker can't reflect it. Really, the doc boils the matchup to "Can Joker resist GER?" which will depend on the Death Battle's team interpretation.
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Yeah, unfortunately that's the sole deciding factor of this whole debate.
However I really do not buy the argument that GER does no physical damage. We see the two barrages it gets on Diavolo. Guy gets beaten nearly to death and is left musing on how he's barely alive after it. I don't see how they can argue it does zero physical damage with the panels and anime showing us the opposite.
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Overdone bit at this point, but... sun disk.
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Honestly, with how the Sun Disk was treated I feel like it'd be a complete tonal whiplash to not have Joker's acausality due to how tied it is to his story and narrative. Far more so at least to Omni-Man and the worlds biggest silver platter
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Well to be fair, that's after Killer Queen gets shattered by the ghost hands and Kira gets dragged away by them as they do god knows what to his soul. Not only could he just not remember how to use Killer Queen due to the memory loss (let alone remember that he has it) but Killer Queen might not even exist anymore.
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As much as I loathe to admit it, at least GER has a lot more leeway with its weird and esoteric power that gives it a better 'Sun Disk' argument than the insane math they got for OmniDock.
I'd still not like it but I'd be more understanding if it came out that way.
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Call the research team
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Gonna call em Mista if Giorno wins
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i can at least understand Giorno winning due to the vague nature of GER and not buying Joker arguments of resisting to an extent given there not outright Blatant in way that says eat shit to GER and argue some wiggle room
omnidock outcome was just that ******* bad when you apply basic critical thinking skills
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