- 2,567
- 2,209
also, the universe is infinite, it would be high uniThe scan shows he is near it.
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also, the universe is infinite, it would be high uniThe scan shows he is near it.
Yeah I'm pretty sure when you reach the ranges of High 3-A distance doesn't matter anywayalso, the universe is infinite, it would be high uni
If you read the "threat to the universe" scans you can clearly see that she's doing nothing that would one-shot it, they just say that it's gonna happen but there is no why or how of it, it would be stupid to just conclude that she can just one-shot the universe from that as nothing states so. Yes, of course the universe would be nearly destroyed by some event that could cause that if finished successfully, that tells us nothing. Worst of all this is a witch that operates through spells with different functions, if she caused all that mess extra care needs to be put to looking at the feat as it would easily be something that her average magic and attacks don't scale to.
- Wonder Woman has defeated Circe, with Circe only going as far as to call Diana her equal(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #176, January 2002)
- Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe (War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991), with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)
I'm gonna read War of the Gods later for more context and continue my evaluation.
Killed everyone in the JL minus Supes as he was yet to do that
Says that no weapon can harm him.
a Moon level explosion will kill him
The ones meditating are the 2 ones meditating, the one creating a universe is the woman with an energy sphere in her hands with a little person inside. We have no context for this, they may easily be pocket universes. Even then, Creation feats=/=AP.
- Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
Its Circe, not Cirge.Cirge
This, Creation isn't always equivalent to AP but in cases where there's a UES or if it's equivalent to AP it can be used iirc.3-A: Universe level
Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space
Also, assuming they are 'pocket universes' would just be headcannon, unless you have anything that backs it up.
The New Gods do have their own UES which come from the Source.This, Creation isn't always equivalent to AP but in cases where there's a UES or if it's equivalent to AP it can be used iirc.
Yep so it’d be admissible regardlessThe New Gods do have their own UES which come from the Source.
This feat was awfully researched, it makes me wonder if they just saw things that sound impressive and copy-paste that along with whater looks like scaling to whoever did the feat w/o reading the comics.
I have been updating my tally post as we get more.So is somebody willing to keep a tally of all the feats that have been accepted or debunked/rejected through careful analysis here please?
what is it so farI have been updating my tally post as we get more.
Aside from the other thing I said that I could have expressed differently, there isn't anything wrong in reviewing things with the lowest scores one could give, or even suspect there being something more to it if reasonable. It's constructive, they each have a simple purpose behind that's why the comments are even made, it's not just "Well, he's just a jerk" as some may think. I'm not gonna avoid saying things like "This feat was awfully researched" if I both conclude that a feat was awfully researched and the way in which that's done is worth saying that. If the things that happened in the feat were more confusing, led to common misconceptions on how to handle the feat among users, was done along a shorter event/story (and so less time & care was put to it), newer users were the ones to claim this, etc. I would sure say something else. I'm not gonna avoid saying things like "it makes me wonder if they just saw things that sound impressive and copy-paste that along with [whatever] looks like scaling to whoever did the feat w/o reading the comics" if I evaluate the feat and evaluate that this is something that makes sense to say. I perfectly agree with our limits on what's too much, but limiting it ever further to the degree that sounding rude is bad like this is wrong, because that's not healthy. Idk how accurate the following feats will be, but I won't stop saying their degree of wrong if I judge it appropriate and something improvable around the feat itself if I judge it appropriate too.(efi please don't be rude to people)
It'll probably end with like, 70-80% of the feats being rejected with the remainder being useable in some way.debunked/rejected through careful analysis here please?
You are wrong, you ignore how unhealthy it is to have that attitude by not caring on what I had to say. "No one cares about your personal judgement, stick to facts" shows double standards as you also portray this as "typing up a text wall the second you're criticized", implying what I said was hollow, in big amounts so it may be hard to read, and a reply way too quick that didn't took its time to have its own reason; that is a personal judgement and not sticking to facts, I'm not going up against some philosophy of attitude here, if the people who doesn't like what I write were to write down how exactly they want things to be they would easily find that they follow some insane double standards as they themselves can be rude AF when replying in debates and try to be assertive beyond what specifically matters to be added in profiles, heck they even do that at people's backs. It's hard to see because it's way too normalized, there is too much toxic positivity around, and it's far easier to see people being rude & people being offended by it, but it's still something abusive. If you disagree with this, bring it up elsewhere, not in this thread.How about instead of typing up a text wall the second you're criticized you just stick to debating instead of making accusations you don't know for sure aren't true, it's completely purposeless and reflects poorly on you (and the wiki as a result). No one cares about your personal judgement, stick to facts.
Furthermore (different from the comment before), surely some people get to have a better experience in Vs Debates based on my personal judgement and it helps in some way, likely in the way I intended, that's sounds sufficient to me. Other people will not like it, sure, I could even be 100% wrong, people will look at it, think "This is wrong" & move on, that can happen at times, and I'm aware of it. I work with what I have, aim to remove those bits is oppressive. I'm sure that by how normalized things are one may read "oppressive" and think it's exaggerated, but it's not, it demands to not do something anymore, affirms that nobody cares about it & implies that no one was ever helped by it.No one cares about your personal judgement
How many feats are even on the threadIt'll probably end with like, 70-80% of the feats being rejected with the remainder being useable in some way.
I say just stick with stuff that's mostly clear-cut and just remove everything not agreed upon.
Exactly. Thank you.It'll probably end with like, 70-80% of the feats being rejected with the remainder being useable in some way.
I say just stick with stuff that's mostly clear-cut and just remove everything not agreed upon.
I'd guess pobably somewhere between 30 to 40 with 10-ish being non-controversial or pretty direct.How many feats are even on the thread
Thing is dimensions from the Sphere have echoes in the actual multiverse so it wouldn't necessarily be onePhantom zone can easily be considered as an outlier feat.
In DC cosmology phantom zone exists above all the definitions of all time /space and beyond the wonderworld which bottled higher dimensions . Flash and other heroes need the aid of metron tech to safely move to the realms beyond time and space .
Could this count? Now, it would sound like a hyperbole on its own, but note that Clark explicitly states he's stronger than he ever was, and the pre crisis continuity got returned for the multiverse. Not to mention that iirc one of the authors said they're bringing Superman back to his more silver age iteration
Action Comics 1050
Depending on the situation, yes. The Oblivion Bomb counter was his max, I think.Does Orion Astro-force varies in power?
Okay, thanks.Depending on the situation, yes. The Oblivion Bomb counter was his max, I think.
In the same panel, he quite literally states that he is control over the energy, and proceeds to elaborate further that he can mold it, shape it and even expand it at will, etc.Having a power source=/=being able to attack with his full power per blow unless proven, otherwise 1 attack would dry the Tesseract from all that infinite energy I assume it has, and it is an assumption, the thing having infinite space =/= it having infinite energy for CB to take, necessarily.
I don't see how a character who talks odd would change anything. The fact it's stated to be an Anti-Universe would make it High 3-A in size, as we already accept the DC universe to be High 3-A in size as well. Furthermore, in Adventure Comics 11 (July, 2010), Mon states the Phantom Zone to be endless, and the Phantom Zone is called endless once again, in Action Comics Vol 1 Annual 11 (July, 2008)It wasn't called "Infinite" but "unregion of infinitely compressed space" by a character that talks odd. Idk what "unregion" means, I think she means region, as in the PZ being limited, but more significantly she is clearly being hyperbolic on how compressed the PZ is in size, and calling a universe infinite is a common hyperbole, so the feat would only be shaking a universe at best.
The shaking also likely refers to the earthquakes in the distance, which would intuitively be the area around rather than every area of the anti-universe that could have earthquakes. Also also, it wasn't due to a punch, the punch happened, then more fighting was happening, and among it the fear happened. It was by the fight in general rather than that 1 punch seen the page before.
1) Why would it be poetic? 2) It's referring to the Green Lantern rings being conduits to the Green Power, which are stated to be Infinite. 3) Why would them having limits debunk them having High 3-A power, when we know High 3-A is far from the strongest thing in DC. Also Lantern rings can also be affected depending on how much willpower the user has or their own ring charge. 4) What has that got to do with anything? The comic is literally all caps.1) This is clearly poetic. 2) Being a conduit to that isn't the same as being it anyway. 3) Those rings clearly have limits to what they can do, even when not used in a way that's shooting their regular AP. 4) Why do you keep starting those words with caps when the comic doesn't? Is it just to make it look more notable when the comic doesn't give it that importance?
The comic is referring to the power Mogo has finally gotten back and had once possessed, not anything to do with his self sustenance.The living planet is a never-ending resource of power due to being self-sustained, as it is abundantly more likely to take from this.
We've covered that in here. And their creation feats absolutely scale to their AP. They literally fight others with the same energy they use to build things.This is meaningless due to their size contained in a smaller space. Even then, it would be a Creation feat.
Why would it being a casual conversation even matter.This is just a casual conversation, it can't possibly be used.
Nero states he could bend the universe to his will in that same panel, which would imply the power in relation to the universe would scale to AP.Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A.
He's using powerful in the same context as he's describe Superman being powerful, and him being uncertain doesn't matter. He's certain Wally has infinite power, but isn't certain he's above Superman, therefore Superman must be at least somewhat comparable and can't be infinitely weakerWhere do I start? "The power inside you" likely refers to the Speed Force. He's talking about Flash being powerful in a way he doesn't understand and know yet, this is pure potential, not standard. He also refers to the way he defies physics, so in context this infinite and incalculable power would have nothing to do with High 3-A as even moving at lightspeed yields infinite energy, and do something incalculable via ignoring physics can be anything. The fact that he doesn't know if Supes is above him shows uncertainty, not scaling.
1. WW being superior to the gods here wouldn't contradict much as the Gods themselves can vary in power depending on how much belief they have.So,
- The "fireball" has the accumulated power of all the gods in that comic (all of them minus Ares) intensified by prayers, which itself is a greater power than any one god that lives in Olympus. Note that even 1 god is more powerful than WW.
- WW did this solely due to their bracelets, her bracelets scale, not her at all. Even then she was pretty overwhelmed by doing this.
- WW has the ability to amp cosmic/godly energies deflected by her bracelets, so very situational Stats Amp for her.
Approaching infinity, while approaching lightspeed would mean that Infinity and lightspeed are interchangeable in this context. And Zoom literally punches Diana at lightspeed.I have rejected that scan in the past, Flash's body mass incresing towards infinity doesn't mean he has infinite mass as in High 3-A, but that he has an ever-incresing mass the more he reaches lightspeed, with no limit to it. He didn't reach infinity as in High 3-A, the scan doesn't say that. The rules for this are variable anyway, a Speedster going at lightspeed can also make them have enough mass to destroy themselves uncontrollably as they become a singularity (See here the last feat in AP and Note 2)
There's a reason called downscaling you know, also "Low 2-C divided is still Low 2-C, so the fractions of it shown don't matter" is literally the standard. It's something you simply cannot divide no matter what.This is such anti-feat for Low 2-C. If any one of them was Low 2-C, one quick attack would do it, yet they have have to continually shoot for a long time, not only is this something they can't do alone, but even if it was 1 character doing this the fact that it's over some time means their every regular blow would be lower than this & thus wouldn't scale. There is a small, actually dumb logic tangle to this; "Low 2-C divided is still Low 2-C, so the fractions of it shown don't matter", right? Wrong, it's wanting to have your cake and eat it, under that own (correct) logic the fact that 1 character alone couldn't do it means 1 alone isn't Low 2-C, as they should be as that stat can't be divided, making it mean that their combined attacks being channeled by someone that controls energy has it greater than the individual sum of its parts, because again, 1 Low 2-C attack alone would do it otherwise. Same with the time it took them to charge this, if their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak was Low 2-C then 1 quick blast would do it, as since it has to be continuous for some time that means what can be acquired doing that is greater than their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak. "Low 2-C can't be divided" is used as a tool, what serves of it is used, and what contradicts things is literally inconceivable, that is being disingenuous.
The Spectre is the one that fills what they were accumulating into what turned into a new universe anyway, I don't think I need to say what this means.
The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.
Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.
All the damage to the timestream before was done by Infinite Man's power as well, it's not that the timestream was weakened by something else, it's all attributable to him. That's what the whole comic is about. The Paradox point seems irrelevant and I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it.Sculpt space-time are abilities, I know it's there "for context", but it shouldn't, as no profile's AP would say that. Similar with having "the energies of space and time".
I went to see the comic for context, after all "We thought we could find answers about our past in the past-- --and gave no thought to how badly the timescream was damaged before we took a deep plunse!" clearly implies the timescream was damaged beforehand and that what they do is otherwise inoffensive thing that's only causing issues due to that damage the timescream already had, and what I found was laughable. Legit the first scan; "The thirtieth century is crumbling. Each new second brings with another paradox... Each heartbeat, another contradiction in chronal continuity. Heroes thought long dead reappear without warning...while champions cherished as vital and alive vanish just as suddenly... ...and with each such entrance and exist the temporal fabric that knits the universe frays chllingly further." The timescream was already pretty f*cked up, Infinite-Man's power was a push further that would destroy it. This is following DC's rules on paradoxes and contradictions in a timeline that on their own damage a timeline, not AP.
That same first scan also says that Infinite-Man's power "might have contained the carnage", which means he might have been able to fix the paradoxes and contradictions talked about in that page, which is unqualifiable as they don't destroy the timeline or universe on its own, it's those 2 villains further f*cking things up that would cause that, and it's Space-Time hax anyway that fixes some things here and there that aren't meant to be a certain way (People being in points in time where they're not meant to, use Space-Time hax to fix that is pretty worthless).
2-C, possibly 2-A
SUPPORTING EVIDENCE
"Debunks to the debunks"
The first thing that a lot of people will bring up is the idea of the Multiverse being weakened, however, this has many, many counters. First, let's go through the reasons people think this. In this statement from Infinite Crisis #3, it's stated the Multiverse was unstable.
First off, the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2. But even if it was literal, the source of the statement is from Alexander Luthor (Infinite Crisis #2), who had pretty much told them everything they believed, and he was the main villain of the story who was lying to everyone, so as a source it's hard to take it seriously.
In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.
It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.
Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.
First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.
A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.
Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.
The next argument is that the feat is metaphorical and didn't actually happen. Let's take a look at the reasoning:
While both Supermen are angry, there's no reason to say they're downright delusional to think some space-time shattering is happening when there isn't, especially considering how they continuously experience it.
Next we have these reasonings:
This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.
This is absolutely an argument from ignorance, someone not saying something doesn't mean it's not happening. On top of this, we see a ton of reality shenanigans in these scans, so you could argue they were being affected too if you want to take this literally.
This is also an argument from ignorance. The first point also stands here, that at the point in the fight they got too, they didn't destroy the Universe or anything, just that they were affecting the Universe with their AP.
Next there's this. The first one is that I don't get how you can change someone's subjective reality by punching them? This isn't stated or implied by anything at all, and in fact there's evidence that it beyond their own memories. We see plenty of events Superman wasn't there for, but rather characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, etc.
Lastly, the back of the comic says they were bending reality, so this seemingly confirms the events being literal.
the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2
In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.
It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.
Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.
First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.
A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.
Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.
1º paragraph, I went over this in my other comment. See this is why I called the positioning unprofessional, this should have been right below that proposed feat and both things at once would have been tackledThe big point of contention is how much Superman actually contributes. However, as mentioned before, the DC Universe is far larger than ours, and likely Infinite. On top of that, as stated in Zero Hour #0, the Big Bang created time and space as well, so this is a 4D feat. If Superman was brought to contribute, he must at least be 1% responsible, making this a Universal+ feat.
Even if Supes didn't scale to it, Kyle Rayner (who he scales above, as he took out many Imperiex Probes [Adventures of Superman #594] that could take out Kyle [JLA: Our Worlds at War]) survives it, as he was blasted by it and was still conscious.
Superman also scales above some of the characters who contributed. Superman scales above Guy Garnder (as he could take on DoS Doomsday, who easily took out Guy), who overpowered the Ray in Justice League America #41. Donna Troy is a character generally sub Wonder Woman level, and Superman scales above her, as backed up by numerous sources. Him scaling to Captain Atom is debatable, but if you think Supes only scales to Atom when Atom is holding back and that Atom holds back even in dire situations, this means that this isn't the Full Power Atom who has the Universal creation feats, and it can't be applied to the version contributing to the Big Bang.
The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.
Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.
I went over this as it was proposed as a feat.The first thing I want to point out is that Superman, absolutely, 100% scales to Nebula Man. We see their fight in JLA: Classified #3, and Superman staggers him twice, also tanking his beam without any damage. The only reason anyone doesn't think this is valid is because Nebula Man says this fight was enough for now and he was just testing Superman, but this is clearly just him making excuses, especially when you look at what was said prior.
As stated in JLA: Classified #2, his goal was straight up to kill Superman, and he gasses himself up right before he fights Superman in #3, asking who will fall to him first. His intention was clearly to fight and kill Superman, and he left when he realized his attacks had no effect. Superman blatantly scales above him and Nebula Man's statement is just his ego. Also, as shown in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #3, his head beam is seemingly a move he uses to kill, so this further supports him actually trying vs Supes.
As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.
Lastly, this scan doesn't contradict what's stated above and could even help it, as despite being physically small and compressed, he still could've been a Universe if not for his flaw. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.
Next is the Red King, which is fairly simple. Superman scales to a character that can destroy entire universes.
The Materioptikon is not part of Red King’s abilities, but as shown, that’s virtually irrelevant due to his feats. As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used. His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.
Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures. This can also explain why the League is so amazed by him, as he's ready for anything to go up against and basically can't be taken off-guard. There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny, who’s implied to be superior to the Red King.
While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.
The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.
As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used
His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.
Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures
While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.
The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes.
Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.