DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[Firestorm808]

Gods

• Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)
  • Darkseid could've destroyed Dreggs if they weren't already dead (New Gods Vol 3 #6, July 1989)
  • Agree, but there is a difference between the lifeless Old Gods (the ones Darkseid curb stomps) and those that got their life back.
• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
  • Unsure - More context is needed. MM is about to become a new god, the alleged nexus of positive energy in the universe, but the other New Gods are supposedly making universes? Was there more than one universe at this time?
• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos(Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
  • Agree
• Orion has control over the Fundamental Forces of the Universe(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Use as secondary support
• Darkseid tanks a bomb that rips apart existence. (Action Comics Vol. 1 Annual #13, February 2011)
  • Agree

 

[Vasco]

Darkseid tanks a bomb that rips apart existence. (Action Comics Vol. 1 Annual #13, February 2011)

This is more of resistance to EE than Tier 2 durability.

 

[Antvasima]

I am unsure. I am concerned about the fact that many of these feats range from unclear to completely worthless, which makes me somewhat cautious towards giving a thumbs up towards other feats. I think when big threads like this are made, a greater degree of scrutiny should be applied before including a feat in the post so that others are not put in the position of giving a thumbs down to a dozen feats and making it sound like they're being unfair. It also would help on time because there are so many feats in this post.

I went over the Superman feats in the other thread, but I haven't had the time to assess every feat in this thread. In the Superman feats, there were many instances where I feel that the evidence is very clearly against an extremely high scaling, such as Aztek's explosion which really only killed a small handful of nameless monsters and a couple of buildings, but immediately afterwards Superman was still swarmed by a bunch of them who were outside the blast radius, and the area wasn't damaged that much. Even the chains holding Superman, 100 feet from this "Low 2-C" blast, were undamaged. Clearly not Low 2-C, but it was portrayed that way because of a statement 3 years prior where MMH calls his energy "limitless."

I see a lot of other feats like this that are relying on statements like "infinite power" or other somewhat vague circumstances, and it gives the impression overall that there is a lack of clear and reliable feats through which to achieve this tier. After all, if it were really that solid, we wouldn't be presented with feats like "The Phantom Zone trembles under the weight of this fight" being described as "Superman shook the Phantom Zone with one punch" which frankly is just not what happened.

No ill will or disrespect towards the thread creators, clearly a lot of work was put into this and I believe it was made in good faith, but I am just seeing a lot of feats that I am finding thoroughly unconvincing, and while I haven't researched every single feat in this thread, I am going to say that I disagree until the thread is reworked to prune vague or invalid feats and we can have a more focused discussion on the feats that are actually relevant. It is not productive to include 30+ feats when 25 of them are worthless.

This is my view as well. Upgrades are fine in themselves, but only through the feats that are genuinely reliable. The rest of them have to be carefully and systematically pruned away until we are left with only the ones that are genuinely blatantly reliable and self-evident enough to use as justifications in our wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I think that Firestorm808 seems to have done a good job of meticulously evaluating the feats above.

Thank you greatly for helping out so much.

 

[Scottycj256]

Agree: @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Starbrand_Fan, @Violatas, @Godernet, @Tipper17, @Liquid_Bigb0ss (?), @FantaRin_The_First, @KLOL506, @Planck69, @Excel616, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Banandrakk, @Scottycj256 (me), @Matthew_Schroeder @Firestorm808 (Agrees with Rebirth Flash and New Gods feats), @Stefano4444, @NHTkenshin2, @RanaProGamer (Tier 2), @Lord_Farquaad69420, @Qawsedf234, @AndrewBennet, @Eseseso, @TimeTrapperFanBoy
Disagree: @Matthew_Schroeder (on scaling), @Wagy
Neutral: @Planck69 (Regarding scaling issues), @Vasco, @RanaProGamer (Tier 3), @Deagonx
Unsure on: @Firestorm808, @Hellbeast, @Antvasima, @Adem_Warlock69

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

hm, Hourman's infinite power may be legit after all, considering there's more context
Issue is Hourman #1

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

interesting

Also, the source of Hourman's powers is Worlogog, a space-time map. Pretty much all the timey bullshit Extant did in Zero Hour was due to Worlogog.

 

[Antvasima]

Agree: @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Starbrand_Fan, @Violatas, @Godernet, @Tipper17, @Liquid_Bigb0ss (?), @FantaRin_The_First, @KLOL506, @Planck69, @Excel616, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Banandrakk, @Scottycj256 (me), @Matthew_Schroeder @Firestorm808 (Agrees with Rebirth Flash and New Gods feats), @Stefano4444, @NHTkenshin2, @RanaProGamer (Tier 2), @Lord_Farquaad69420, @Qawsedf234, @AndrewBennet, @Eseseso, @TimeTrapperFanBoy
Disagree: @Matthew_Schroeder (on scaling), @Wagy
Neutral: @Planck69 (Regarding scaling issues), @Vasco, @RanaProGamer (Tier 3), @Deagonx
Unsure on: @Firestorm808, @Hellbeast, @Antvasima, @Adem_Warlock69

It doesn't work like that. We cannot just sweepingly accept every single suggestion without critical evaluation. We need to dismiss all of the vague, subjective, and/or unreliable ones, and keep the gems only, period.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, the source of Hourman's powers is Worlogog, a space-time map. Pretty much all the timey bullshit Extant did in Zero Hour was due to Worlogog.

Yes, but Hourman explicitly said that The Worlogog gave him power over the 4th Dimension, and that he is as superior to other superheroes as 5th-Dimensional djinns such as Mxyzptlk are beyond him.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Yes, but Hourman explicitly said that The Worlogog gave him power over the 4th Dimension, and that he is as superior to other superheroes as 5th-Dimensional djinns such as Mxyzptlk are beyond him.

So.. you agree then? Hourman did possess infinite power?

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

yeah it should, though whether those decent fights took place in Pre-Crisis or Post-Crisis is another matter to discuss

Apparently Darkseid fluctuates in power more than Superman does. I know that a lot of people are extremely iffy on his showings, especially against Superman.

 

[Vasco]

Yes, but Hourman explicitly said that The Worlogog gave him power over the 4th Dimension,

I think OP is proposing High 3-A to this.

hm, Hourman's infinite power may be legit after all, considering there's more context
Issue is Hourman #1

Tag @Emirp sumitpo and @Ehnkr2beboh To have a look.

 

[Antvasima]

So.. you agree then? Hourman did possess infinite power?

If he used the Worlogog's reality warping to its full potential, yes, but he was very inexperienced, could only use it for brief periods every day, and it doesn't really scale to other superheroes as far as I am aware.

 

[Antvasima]

Apparently Darkseid fluctuates in power more than Superman does. I know that a lot of people are extremely iffy on his showings, especially against Superman.

Well, it is generally explained by him using avatars.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

If he used the Worlogog's reality warping to its full potential, yes, but he was very inexperienced, could only use it for brief periods every day, and it doesn't really scale to other superheroes as far as I am aware.

AMAZO explicitly used half of Hourman's infinite power and Hourman could still trade blows with him

 

[Deagonx]

How do we define "infinite power?" Clearly Hourman's power is not actually infinite. He isn't the strongest person in DC by a long shot. I am surprised at the inclusion of so many "infinite power" statements. I thought those were basically dismissed by default.

 

[Antvasima]

AMAZO explicitly used half of Hourman's infinite power and Hourman could still trade blows with him

Hmm. I do not think that it powered them up physically. It allowed them to manipulate time.

 

[LordTracer]

Clearly Hourman's power is not actually infinite. He isn't the strongest person in DC by a long shot.

I don’t see how these two things are supposed to correlate.

 

[Deagonx]

I don’t see how these two things are supposed to correlate.

I'm surprised at this response, the objection seems intuitive. How are we meant to tier a claim of "infinite" power from someone who has clear and objective limitations on their power? I.e., someone who is not omnipotent?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I'm surprised at this response, the objection seems intuitive. How are we meant to tier a claim of "infinite" power from someone who has clear and objective limitations on their power? I.e., someone who is not omnipotent?

High Universe level is already infinite power. We are pushing DC heralds beyond that here

 

[Antvasima]

How do we define "infinite power?" Clearly Hourman's power is not actually infinite. He isn't the strongest person in DC by a long shot. I am surprised at the inclusion of so many "infinite power" statements. I thought those were basically dismissed by default.

Well, Hourman claimed to be as far beyond regular superheroes as Mxyzptlk is beyond him, and our tiering system is built on degrees of infinity, but Hourman never really used his power at anywhere near an infinite scale in practice as far as I recall.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't see how someone having Infinite power correlates to them supposedly being the strongest character or omnipotent?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

How do we define "infinite power?" Clearly Hourman's power is not actually infinite. He isn't the strongest person in DC by a long shot. I am surprised at the inclusion of so many "infinite power" statements. I thought those were basically dismissed by default.

“Infinite power” by itself means at least High 3-A power assuming the statement isn’t poetic or just an arrogant character boasting.

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space. This extends to an infinite number of finite or infinite-sized 3-D universes or pocket dimensions when not accounting for when not accounting for any higher dimensions or time. Large numbers of infinite 3-D universes, unless causally closed from one another by a separate spacetime or existence, only count for a higher level of this tier. Being “infinitely” stronger than this level, unless uncountably so, does not qualify for any higher tier.

According to how our Tiering System works you don’t need to be the strongest character in your series to have infinite power, either.

 

[LordTracer]

I'm surprised at this response, the objection seems intuitive. How are we meant to tier a claim of "infinite" power from someone who has clear and objective limitations on their power? I.e., someone who is not omnipotent?

… you realize that our tiering system works on levels of infinity and doesn’t acknowledge “omnipotence” as a valid concept, right?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I'm surprised at this response, the objection seems intuitive. How are we meant to tier a claim of "infinite" power from someone who has clear and objective limitations on their power? I.e., someone who is not omnipotent?

because he has infinite power in comparison to everyone around him, infinite power alone shouldn't mean he scales above the verse

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah put me down as agree because I’m convinced

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

Well, it is generally explained by him using avatars.

Superman's fights or brief encounters with Darkseid don't seem to suggest that he's up against avatars. Unless it is stated in the comic, it is the same Darkseid from the Pre-Crisis continuity and AFAIK Darkseid hates using avatars and he appears to only use them twice throughout the Post-Crisis continuity.

 

[Deagonx]

… you realize that our tiering system works on levels of infinity and doesn’t acknowledge “omnipotence” as a valid concept, right?

Sure, yes, but how do we assess which "level of infinity" he is on based on the statement alone?

because he has infinite power in comparison to everyone around him, infinite power alone shouldn't mean he scales above the verse

What does that mean, exactly, and how do we determine it?

 

[LordTracer]

Sure, yes, but how do we assess which "level of infinity" he is on based on the statement alone?

High 3-A. Because it’s literally the definition of High 3-A, as Mav said earlier.

“Infinite power” by itself means at least High 3-A power assuming the statement isn’t poetic or just an arrogant character boasting.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

What does that mean, exactly, and how do we determine it?

it's that in comparison to everyone that made that statement, he has infinite power compared to them, whether that's hyperbole is another thing but his infinite power doesn't apply to those higher than him

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah put me down as agree because I’m convinced

Just a reminder that this kind of revision is still not about sweepingly putting agreement stamps on everything. I agree with the basic premise, but we still need to significantly sift down all of the listed feats in all three threads to just the most reliable ones.

Speaking of which, it will likely be confusing to try to coordinate information between three different threads at the same time. Is somebody continuously updating the first posts in them with strikethroughs for rejected/unreliable feats and "(Accepted)" for the ones that have been uniformly deemed reliable by staff evaluations?

 

[Antvasima]

High 3-A. Because it’s literally the definition of High 3-A, as Mav said earlier.

In theory The Worlogog likely possessed a Low 2-C time-space continuum-controlling power, but I do not see how this scales to anybody else. Can somebody explain please?

 

[Deagonx]

Apologies, I only just now saw Maverick's comment.

“Infinite power” by itself means at least High 3-A power assuming the statement isn’t poetic or just an arrogant character boasting.

I gotta say, I don't think the wording supports this interpretation as smoothly as is implied.

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space

Emphasis on the word demonstrate. Does Hourman have a feat that establishes this? Because to me, the word "infinite" being used in such a context should be taken with an extremely large grain of salt. I don't agree that we should just give H3-A to every character who is said to have infinite power if they do not have feats that demonstrate H3-A.

 

[Vasco]

How do we define "infinite power?" Clearly Hourman's power is not actually infinite. He isn't the strongest person in DC by a long shot. I am surprised at the inclusion of so many "infinite power" statements. I thought those were basically dismissed by default.

I don't understand why infinite power = strongest in DC? Infinite power only grants High 3-A here.

 

[LordTracer]

Speaking of which, it will likely be confusing to try to coordinate information between three different threads at the same time.

Most people agree that it should remain as one thread, but Firestorm wanted three so ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Vasco]

Speaking of which, it will likely be confusing to try to coordinate information between three different threads at the same time. Is somebody continuously updating the first posts in them with strikethroughs for rejected/unreliable feats and "(Accepted)" for the ones that have been uniformly deemed reliable by staff evaluations?

Since staffs disagree on the threads being multiple shouldn't @Emirp sumitpo close those and leave this main open?

 

[Vasco]

Apologies, I only just now saw Maverick's comment.


I gotta say, I don't think the wording supports this interpretation as smoothly as is implied.

Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass, or those who can affect an infinite 3-D space

Emphasis on the word demonstrate. Does Hourman have a feat that establishes this? Because to me, the word "infinite" being used in such a context should be taken with an extremely large grain of salt. I don't agree that we should just give H3-A to every character who is said to have infinite power if they do not have feats that demonstrate H3-A.

Our statement page also without feats states depends on the person saying or making the claim so feats aren't always needed.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Since staffs disagree on the threads being multiple shouldn't @Emirp sumitpo close those and leave this main open?

I mean we're still in the middle of discussing in those threads, unless we wanna just carry over what was in there into here.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't understand why infinite power = strongest in DC? Infinite power only grants High 3-A here.

Infinite power shouldn't grant High 3-A, or really any tier, because it's an extremely vague phrase that is subject to a lot of really obvious complications, and is so often just hyperbole.

Our statement page also without feats states depends on the person saying or making the claim so feats aren't always needed.

Sure, but there's a big difference between specific and distinct statements of power like "can destroy a universe" and something like "limitless power" or "infinite power."

There are many many examples of things that are said to have infinite/limitless/unlimited power which are not universal.

 

[Antvasima]

Most people agree that it should remain as one thread, but Firestorm wanted three so ¯\(ツ)/¯

Well, maybe some of our staff members are willing to update the first post of this thread with "(Rejected)" or strikethroughs for all of the feats that have been rejected by comprehensive evaluations by our staff members in the other two connected threads?