- 25,017
- 27,011
How else to start the new year then unleashing hell itself?
Any derailing will be deleted. You have been warned.
Massive thanks to @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Amelia_Lonelyheart, @Confluctor and Highfather, Royals, and Era from Discord.
I should note this only affects Post-Crisis and Rebirth, as the latter scales to the former. We're not touching New 52 and that's for a whole other thread.
Regarding 4-B Heralds
So as of now, the DC heralds have really shaky justifications for their current 4-B rating, mostly containing outdated feats or feat with shaky evidence for 4-B or even scaling to anyone to begin with. So let's fold why 4-B isn't as consistent as it is.
We'll mainly be addressing the Large Star and Solar System level feats that the wiki currently uses, and explain why they don't limit the characters to those levels at all.
The first one to address is that Alan Scott's death would destroy the Solar System, as stated in JSA #19. However, despite this essentially being all of his energy leaking out, it's not concentrated at all, which is very important for Green Lanterns. One of the first and most important things rookie Lanterns are taught is the importance of concentration and focus, as we can see in Green Lantern Corps #27. This can be shown further with this scene from Justice League #1, where even Batman can snatch an unfocused Hal's ring. Concentration is also necessary for full strength, as shown in this scene from Justice League of America #22, where Alan and Hal's full might doesn't work until they concentrate it.
The next feat for Solar System level is the calc for this feat from The Flash #148. Here's the issue with the calc, it says that Flash is using relativistic Kinetic Energy and was just under the speed of light:
Next is this High 4-C supporting feat from Action Comics #847, and as is well-known, these are giving off red solar radiation, which is especially harmful to the Man of Steel, so this is a weakened Superman. John Stewart also also has his feat of creating a Solar System in Green Lantern #26, which has been used as a High 4-C supporting feat. This feat is a limit, as it was only temporary and required the full limits of the ring, but not a limit of Attack Potency, but rather to how complex his constructs can be, and how long he can hold them. This is demonstrably not correlated to power, as even Hal Jordan could only temporarily recreate a city before running out of charge, as seen in Green Lantern #48.
Next is the only Solar System level feat from Rebirth, in Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #26, where Orion's battle with an Nth Metal Golem destroys a Star System. While this already isn't implied to be a limit in any way, it's especially apparent that it's not when the next issue, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #27, clarifies it was just the shockwaves of their attacks destroyed the System, as we note on his page.
Another belief is that the 80s cast scaled even lower, citing many feats seemingly limiting the Pre-Death Superman to City level to Island level. While higher statistics could already fit in considering the varies tiering he has, there's little reason to limit him in the first place. Many of the seemingly City level anti-feats include nuclear blasts, which release harmful radiation, which we've seen can nerf Superman due to his solar energy absorption, as seen in Superman #29. We also saw in Superman/Wonder Woman #6-#7 that a nuclear blasts radiation is harmful enough to completely change Superman's appearance, and weakened him to the point where sunlight burned him.
While this is New 52 Superman, Post Crisis Superman has a very similar physiology, and actually absorbs more radiation, as is stated in Superman Annual #1, so if anything, the effects of nuclear radiation would be even more harmful to him. The feat for Island level from Action Comics #652 really has no reason to be a limit, as it's not Superman intentionally trying to cause damage, nor is he even in a fight, he's just enraged from learning what's been controlling him.
Now that's out of the way, we'll go over the many consistent High 3-A to 2-C feats present, and who scales to who.
Tier 3 - 2 feats
Debunks to the debunks
Might as well address the debunks to these feats. The main threads we're going to debunk are the following three, which are often brought up during the whatever universal DC upgrade there is:
Who scales to who?
After all of that, we get to the final part. Who scales to who and to what? Here is the listed scaling for who scales what.
For the sake of cohesion. Superman feats will be discussed here. Green Lantern feats will be discussed here.
Anything that isn't under Superman or Green Lantern will be discussed in this thread.
Any derailing will be deleted. You have been warned.
Massive thanks to @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Amelia_Lonelyheart, @Confluctor and Highfather, Royals, and Era from Discord.
I should note this only affects Post-Crisis and Rebirth, as the latter scales to the former. We're not touching New 52 and that's for a whole other thread.
Regarding 4-B Heralds
So as of now, the DC heralds have really shaky justifications for their current 4-B rating, mostly containing outdated feats or feat with shaky evidence for 4-B or even scaling to anyone to begin with. So let's fold why 4-B isn't as consistent as it is.
We'll mainly be addressing the Large Star and Solar System level feats that the wiki currently uses, and explain why they don't limit the characters to those levels at all.
The first one to address is that Alan Scott's death would destroy the Solar System, as stated in JSA #19. However, despite this essentially being all of his energy leaking out, it's not concentrated at all, which is very important for Green Lanterns. One of the first and most important things rookie Lanterns are taught is the importance of concentration and focus, as we can see in Green Lantern Corps #27. This can be shown further with this scene from Justice League #1, where even Batman can snatch an unfocused Hal's ring. Concentration is also necessary for full strength, as shown in this scene from Justice League of America #22, where Alan and Hal's full might doesn't work until they concentrate it.
The next feat for Solar System level is the calc for this feat from The Flash #148. Here's the issue with the calc, it says that Flash is using relativistic Kinetic Energy and was just under the speed of light:
However, in this instance, Flash was moving exactly at lightspeed is exactly Infinite Mass in DC. Flash's Kinetic Energy shenanigans also certainly do not end at Solar System level, as he increased his mass to let him topple the Crisis on Infinite Earths Anti-Monitor and rupture space-time in Dark Crisis: Big Bang #1.When performing the Infinite Mass Punch, The Flash runs just under the speed of light, and per the Laws of Relativity his mass increases exponentially until he reaches the Relativistic Mass of a White Dwarf Star. Thus, we can use the Relativistic KE Formula to calculate the energy of the IMP.
Next is this High 4-C supporting feat from Action Comics #847, and as is well-known, these are giving off red solar radiation, which is especially harmful to the Man of Steel, so this is a weakened Superman. John Stewart also also has his feat of creating a Solar System in Green Lantern #26, which has been used as a High 4-C supporting feat. This feat is a limit, as it was only temporary and required the full limits of the ring, but not a limit of Attack Potency, but rather to how complex his constructs can be, and how long he can hold them. This is demonstrably not correlated to power, as even Hal Jordan could only temporarily recreate a city before running out of charge, as seen in Green Lantern #48.
Next is the only Solar System level feat from Rebirth, in Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #26, where Orion's battle with an Nth Metal Golem destroys a Star System. While this already isn't implied to be a limit in any way, it's especially apparent that it's not when the next issue, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #27, clarifies it was just the shockwaves of their attacks destroyed the System, as we note on his page.
Another belief is that the 80s cast scaled even lower, citing many feats seemingly limiting the Pre-Death Superman to City level to Island level. While higher statistics could already fit in considering the varies tiering he has, there's little reason to limit him in the first place. Many of the seemingly City level anti-feats include nuclear blasts, which release harmful radiation, which we've seen can nerf Superman due to his solar energy absorption, as seen in Superman #29. We also saw in Superman/Wonder Woman #6-#7 that a nuclear blasts radiation is harmful enough to completely change Superman's appearance, and weakened him to the point where sunlight burned him.
While this is New 52 Superman, Post Crisis Superman has a very similar physiology, and actually absorbs more radiation, as is stated in Superman Annual #1, so if anything, the effects of nuclear radiation would be even more harmful to him. The feat for Island level from Action Comics #652 really has no reason to be a limit, as it's not Superman intentionally trying to cause damage, nor is he even in a fight, he's just enraged from learning what's been controlling him.
Now that's out of the way, we'll go over the many consistent High 3-A to 2-C feats present, and who scales to who.
Tier 3 - 2 feats
3-C
- Flodo encompasses and destroys an evil Galaxy(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #219, December 1987)
3-B
- Starbreaker has laid waste to Galactic Clusters (Adam Strange Vol. 2 #7, May 2005)
- Supergirl tanks hits from Reactron and easily overpowers him (Supergirl Vol. 5 #25, March 2008) and later tanks a stray blast from his fight with Superman. Reactron is stated to have the power of a thousand galaxies in his hands. (Supergirl Vol. 5 #26, April 2008)
- Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies (Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)
High 3-A
Superman- Characters with Infinite Man's power had Infinite Power (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September, 1994), as was stated many times(Valor Vol. 1 #23, September 1994)
- Infinite Man is as powerful as Darkseid (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #18, January 1986) and stalemated the Time Trapper (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #50, September 1988)
- Hourman has Infinite Power(Secret Origins of Super-Villains 80-Page Giant, December 1999)
- Superman is able to defeat Extant (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #1, September 1994), who had an edge over Hourman (JSA Vol. 1 #13 August, 2000). Triumph, who one shot Hourman (JLA Vol. 1 #29, May 1999), only could contend with Superman after siphoning his Solar Energy (JLA Vol. 1 #31, July 1999)
- Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
- This tesseract was described as infinite space within finite space (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #99, April 2000), and is said to have Infinite space within (Superman Secret Files Vol. 1 #1, June 2000)
- Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)
- Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
- The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012) and has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36 December, 1999)
- Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)
- Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)
- Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
- This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
- Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
- Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)
- Ion has Infinite Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)
- Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
- The Human Lanterns were able to fight Guardians with the powers of the Emotional Entities (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), with Entity-level scaling overall being consistent
- Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps September, 2016), which has been called an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms (The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained, November, 2021)
- Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #6, June 2019)
- Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
- Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
- Wonder Woman has survived lightspeed attacks from Zoom (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #214, May 2005), with lightspeed in DC being Infinite Mass (JLA Vol. 1. #3, March 1997)
- Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)
- Darkseid could've destroyed Dreggs if they weren't already did (New Gods Vol 3 #6, July 1989)
- Shazam and Lobo's fight rock the cosmos. (Captain Atom #57, September 1991)
Low 2-C
Superman- Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
- Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994), and has the energies of space and time (Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 1 #233, November 1977)
- Superman survives Aztek's self destruction of 4th Dimensional energy(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
- Aztek's energy had previously been described as Limitless 4th Dimensional energy (JLA Vol 1 #10 September, 1997)
- Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
- Death implies that WITS really happened. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
- Lois references WITS in Rebirth. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #1030, June 2021)
- Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
- Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)
- Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
- Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines (Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006)
- The GLC Central Battery can become as large as and destroy the entire Universe(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
- Hal Jordan has survived attacks from Sinestro possessing the Central Battery (Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
- Superman survived attacks from and matches Molly (Justice League Vol. 4 #19, May 2019) with the power of the Central Battery and other sources (Justice League Vol. 4 #17, April 2019)
- Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang (Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
- Kyle Rayner survives being blasted by the Zero Hour Big Bang (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
- Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power (Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
- As mentioned before, human Lanterns have fought Guardians when they were amped. They also fought and overpowered the Controllers before being mind controlled (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #36, March 2018). Hal also believes he could defeat someone who defeated the Guardians (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #32, January 2018), with Guardians being compared in power to individual power batteries (Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
- Kyle Rayner and Anarky reverse the warping of the universe. (Anarky Vol. 2 #3, July 1999)
- Ion could remake the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
- The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010), and fought an Obsidian/Jade merge (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010), both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010), while gradually losing power
- The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)
- Barry Allen and Godspeed survived attacks from an amped Paradox, who was destroying the timestream (The Flash Vol. 1 #756, August 2020)
- Wonder Woman has defeated Circe, with Circe only going as far as to call Diana her equal(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #176, January 2002)
- Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe (War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991), with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)
- Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
- Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos (Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
2-C
Superman- Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
- The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multiple times, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
- Superman separates two worlds (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
- These worlds are represented as tapes, the literal fabric of reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021), and each strip is a different reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #20, September 2021)
- Superman one shot Auteur.io (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
- Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021), and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)
- Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
- Superman and Hal Jordan have fought Starbreaker's pull (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29, March 2009), and Icon and John Stewart have staggered Starbreaker (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
2-C, possibly 2-A
Superman- Superman tanks a blast from Mordru and harms him. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
- Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
- Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)
- Superman punches out Barbatos (Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
- Hal Jordan knocks off Spectre (Crispus Allen)'s jaw, staggering him and freeing the Guardians, and stabs him with help from the Guardians (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #50, March 2010)
- Hal Jordan defeats Krona (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), who had the power of the Emotional Entities (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #64, May 2011)
- Wally West fights Pre Crisis Reverse Flash (The Flash Vol.2 #224, September 2005)
- Pre Crisis Reverse Flash himself, is consistently a match for Pre Crisis Barry Allen. Wally is also superior to Barry Allen.
- Captain Atom is sent flying by someone he compares to an out of control Superman, and believes he'd need all his power to defeat her (Captain Atom: Armageddon Vol. 1 #7, June 2006)
Superman
- Supergirl and Superman tank attacks from Blackstarr, who has power over the energy of the cosmos. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #850, July 2007)
- Superboy is able to damage Superboy-Prime (Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
- While fighting a serious Captain Atom, Hank Hall Monarch twisted space and time, destroying Universes within atoms(Armageddon 2001 Vol. 1 #2, October 1991)
- Superman could have stopped Hank Hall Monarch. (Adventures of Superman Annual #3, October 1991)
- Hank Hall Monarch is comparable to Despero and Dreamslayer (Justice League America Vol. 1 #87, April 1994), with the latter being a rival to Darkseid (Justice League America Vol. 1 #88, May 1994)
- Superman is implied to be capable of defeating Extant, who is stronger than Hank Hall Monarch. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #1, September 1994)
- A battle between Diana and Cassie makes it seem like the energies of the Universe are erupting and will tear the foundations of reality (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #156, May 2000)
- Extant defeats Kent Nelson Doctor Fate (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #3, September 1994)
- Black Adam tanks lightning from and staggers Hector Hall Doctor Fate (JSA Vol. 1 #6, January 2000)
- Orion has control over the Fundamental Forces of the Universe (JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
- Darkseid tanks a bomb that rips apart existence. (Action Comics Vol. 1 Annual #13, February 2011)
Debunks to the debunks
Might as well address the debunks to these feats. The main threads we're going to debunk are the following three, which are often brought up during the whatever universal DC upgrade there is:
- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:FanofRPGs/Sandbox
- https://www.fanverse.org/blogs/some-quick-superman-feat-debunks.37730/
- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Superman_Feats_Timeline_Project
The first thing that a lot of people will bring up is the idea of the Multiverse being weakened, however, this has many, many counters. First, let's go through the reasons people think this. In this statement from Infinite Crisis #3, it's stated the Multiverse was unstable.
First off, the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2. But even if it was literal, the source of the statement is from Alexander Luthor (Infinite Crisis #2), who had pretty much told them everything they believed, and he was the main villain of the story who was lying to everyone, so as a source it's hard to take it seriously.
In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.
It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.
Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.
First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.
A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.
Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.
The next argument is that the feat is metaphorical and didn't actually happen. Let's take a look at the reasoning:
While both Supermen are angry, there's no reason to say they're downright delusional to think some space-time shattering is happening when there isn't, especially considering how they continuously experience it.
Next we have these reasonings:
This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.
This is absolutely an argument from ignorance, someone not saying something doesn't mean it's not happening. On top of this, we see a ton of reality shenanigans in these scans, so you could argue they were being affected too if you want to take this literally.
This is also an argument from ignorance. The first point also stands here, that at the point in the fight they got too, they didn't destroy the Universe or anything, just that they were affecting the Universe with their AP.
Next there's this. The first one is that I don't get how you can change someone's subjective reality by punching them? This isn't stated or implied by anything at all, and in fact there's evidence that it beyond their own memories. We see plenty of events Superman wasn't there for, but rather characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, etc.
Lastly, the back of the comic says they were bending reality, so this seemingly confirms the events being literal.
First off, the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2. But even if it was literal, the source of the statement is from Alexander Luthor (Infinite Crisis #2), who had pretty much told them everything they believed, and he was the main villain of the story who was lying to everyone, so as a source it's hard to take it seriously.
In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.
It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.
Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.
First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.
A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.
Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.
The next argument is that the feat is metaphorical and didn't actually happen. Let's take a look at the reasoning:
Why is this important? Well neither were in the greatest mindset at the time of the fight; Golden Age Superman is angry, bloodlusted, and focused on killing New Earth Superman meanwhile New Earth Superman is mostly focused on just surviving and keeping up with Golden Age Superman. So they aren’t in a lucid enough mindset to really analyze or know the scope of their clash I would believe.
While both Supermen are angry, there's no reason to say they're downright delusional to think some space-time shattering is happening when there isn't, especially considering how they continuously experience it.
Next we have these reasonings:
The actual fight between Kal-El and Kal-L in a physical sense only lead to the devastation of a city block.
This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.
In both Superman Vol. 2 #226 and Action Comics #836 we see Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen respectively during the exact time of the fight living their life and not commenting on any actual collateral damage.
This is absolutely an argument from ignorance, someone not saying something doesn't mean it's not happening. On top of this, we see a ton of reality shenanigans in these scans, so you could argue they were being affected too if you want to take this literally.
Alexander Luthor doesn’t comment on any spatio-temporal shattering at all which would be a big deal given his project at hand.
This is also an argument from ignorance. The first point also stands here, that at the point in the fight they got too, they didn't destroy the Universe or anything, just that they were affecting the Universe with their AP.
They aren’t shattering the boundaries of space and time on a universal cataclysmic scale, they are shattering each others’ localized subjective reality’s boundaries which lets them relive each other's experiences rapidly and to their own liking. This was a wholly localized event and not universal in scope.
Next there's this. The first one is that I don't get how you can change someone's subjective reality by punching them? This isn't stated or implied by anything at all, and in fact there's evidence that it beyond their own memories. We see plenty of events Superman wasn't there for, but rather characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, etc.
Lastly, the back of the comic says they were bending reality, so this seemingly confirms the events being literal.
The big point of contention is how much Superman actually contributes. However, as mentioned before, the DC Universe is far larger than ours, and likely Infinite. On top of that, as stated in Zero Hour #0, the Big Bang created time and space as well, so this is a 4D feat. If Superman was brought to contribute, he must at least be 1% responsible, making this a Universal+ feat.
Even if Supes didn't scale to it, Kyle Rayner (who he scales above, as he took out many Imperiex Probes [Adventures of Superman #594] that could take out Kyle [JLA: Our Worlds at War]) survives it, as he was blasted by it and was still conscious.
Superman also scales above some of the characters who contributed. Superman scales above Guy Garnder (as he could take on DoS Doomsday, who easily took out Guy), who overpowered the Ray in Justice League America #41. Donna Troy is a character generally sub Wonder Woman level, and Superman scales above her, as backed up by numerous sources. Him scaling to Captain Atom is debatable, but if you think Supes only scales to Atom when Atom is holding back and that Atom holds back even in dire situations, this means that this isn't the Full Power Atom who has the Universal creation feats, and it can't be applied to the version contributing to the Big Bang.
The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.
Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.
Even if Supes didn't scale to it, Kyle Rayner (who he scales above, as he took out many Imperiex Probes [Adventures of Superman #594] that could take out Kyle [JLA: Our Worlds at War]) survives it, as he was blasted by it and was still conscious.
Superman also scales above some of the characters who contributed. Superman scales above Guy Garnder (as he could take on DoS Doomsday, who easily took out Guy), who overpowered the Ray in Justice League America #41. Donna Troy is a character generally sub Wonder Woman level, and Superman scales above her, as backed up by numerous sources. Him scaling to Captain Atom is debatable, but if you think Supes only scales to Atom when Atom is holding back and that Atom holds back even in dire situations, this means that this isn't the Full Power Atom who has the Universal creation feats, and it can't be applied to the version contributing to the Big Bang.
The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.
Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.
The first thing I want to point out is that Superman, absolutely, 100% scales to Nebula Man. We see their fight in JLA: Classified #3, and Superman staggers him twice, also tanking his beam without any damage. The only reason anyone doesn't think this is valid is because Nebula Man says this fight was enough for now and he was just testing Superman, but this is clearly just him making excuses, especially when you look at what was said prior.
As stated in JLA: Classified #2, his goal was straight up to kill Superman, and he gasses himself up right before he fights Superman in #3, asking who will fall to him first. His intention was clearly to fight and kill Superman, and he left when he realized his attacks had no effect. Superman blatantly scales above him and Nebula Man's statement is just his ego. Also, as shown in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #3, his head beam is seemingly a move he uses to kill, so this further supports him actually trying vs Supes.
As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.
Lastly, this scan doesn't contradict what's stated above and could even help it, as despite being physically small and compressed, he still could've been a Universe if not for his flaw. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.
As stated in JLA: Classified #2, his goal was straight up to kill Superman, and he gasses himself up right before he fights Superman in #3, asking who will fall to him first. His intention was clearly to fight and kill Superman, and he left when he realized his attacks had no effect. Superman blatantly scales above him and Nebula Man's statement is just his ego. Also, as shown in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #3, his head beam is seemingly a move he uses to kill, so this further supports him actually trying vs Supes.
As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.
Lastly, this scan doesn't contradict what's stated above and could even help it, as despite being physically small and compressed, he still could've been a Universe if not for his flaw. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.
Next is the Red King, which is fairly simple. Superman scales to a character that can destroy entire universes.
The Materioptikon is not part of Red King’s abilities, but as shown, that’s virtually irrelevant due to his feats. As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used. His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.
Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures. This can also explain why the League is so amazed by him, as he's ready for anything to go up against and basically can't be taken off-guard. There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny, who’s implied to be superior to the Red King.
While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.
The Materioptikon is not part of Red King’s abilities, but as shown, that’s virtually irrelevant due to his feats. As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used. His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.
Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures. This can also explain why the League is so amazed by him, as he's ready for anything to go up against and basically can't be taken off-guard. There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny, who’s implied to be superior to the Red King.
While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.
The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.So it had some limited dimensional manipulation but its full extent is unknown. Point is he doesn't scale to breaking probabilities because that is in a context not seen at the moment. That is only when he is in the Materioptikon and using that stone again, not his own power, to destroy obsolete possibilities and using the realm within it as Batman describes in #36 as a "hub world."
The first thing to cover is the reasoning people say it's not real. First off, Superman suspects he's hallucinating, but this is just his guess. Death seemingly confirms it is, but then compares regular life to hallucinations too, meaning he's essentially saying everything Superman thinks is real is fake, which obviously isn't true. Superman again asks if it's real, though again, this is still him not being sure.
Superman asks Death if it was all a dream, and Death responds that he can choose to believe it if it comforts him, but really it was on planes of reality where mind and matter intersect. Superman says it was a dream, but this is just him choosing to believe it was. And to further clarify what death is describing, he's talking about a place where Superman's psychological demons take physical form, as he says "where which hides in our dreams takes form", meaning what's happening here was physical. On top of this, in Action Comics #1030, we see Lois referencing it as if it did indeed happen.
As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.
From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant.
Superman asks Death if it was all a dream, and Death responds that he can choose to believe it if it comforts him, but really it was on planes of reality where mind and matter intersect. Superman says it was a dream, but this is just him choosing to believe it was. And to further clarify what death is describing, he's talking about a place where Superman's psychological demons take physical form, as he says "where which hides in our dreams takes form", meaning what's happening here was physical. On top of this, in Action Comics #1030, we see Lois referencing it as if it did indeed happen.
As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.
From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant.
Next is Time Trapper. People often say that Trapper was fighting Conner Kent as Superboy Prime in the past, which was shown altering the future. However, this isn’t Conner’s punches literally affecting Trapper through time, just the effects of the fight, such as a wound inflicted still showing. A physical attack landed possibly trillions of years prior won’t have any profound effect on the current state of Trapper. The heat vision is specifically a wound inflicted that never healed.
Even before the reveal and the eventual wounds he suffered, Superman could still survive bloodlusted attacks from Trapper, blitz him and stagger him. The power of Trapper is contentious, as there’s been multiple versions of him according to DC Encyclopedia: New Edition, possible embodying the same being, or possibly hosts more like Spectre. However, this Trapper is at least regarded as a sentient timeline, and would scale off Superboy-Prime.
Side note: Superboy being able to wound Prime also boosts the argument for Superman as well. A lot of people debate Prime’s state, but he was rejuvenated with solar radiation just before encountering Conner. Prime’s rage is debatable and hard to quantify, but before the battle he’s forced to relive the events of Infinite Crisis reversed, with him portrayed as a D list villain, and characters like Superman and Superboy portrayed as heroes. Given that Prime is not only going through the same process as Infinite Crisis, but now attacks against his own status, it’s more logical to say his rage wouldn’t be drastically altered. For context, Alexander Luthor says this in a comic where Prime is back on his home world, with his family and his girlfriend, and is eventually redeemed, something LO3W Prime is explicitly unable to do.
Also for the lack of the suit Prime usually wears, the suit just feeds Prime sunlight, something his cells could already do regardless. He also has arguably his toughest fight without the suit against Sodam Yat as well.
Even before the reveal and the eventual wounds he suffered, Superman could still survive bloodlusted attacks from Trapper, blitz him and stagger him. The power of Trapper is contentious, as there’s been multiple versions of him according to DC Encyclopedia: New Edition, possible embodying the same being, or possibly hosts more like Spectre. However, this Trapper is at least regarded as a sentient timeline, and would scale off Superboy-Prime.
Side note: Superboy being able to wound Prime also boosts the argument for Superman as well. A lot of people debate Prime’s state, but he was rejuvenated with solar radiation just before encountering Conner. Prime’s rage is debatable and hard to quantify, but before the battle he’s forced to relive the events of Infinite Crisis reversed, with him portrayed as a D list villain, and characters like Superman and Superboy portrayed as heroes. Given that Prime is not only going through the same process as Infinite Crisis, but now attacks against his own status, it’s more logical to say his rage wouldn’t be drastically altered. For context, Alexander Luthor says this in a comic where Prime is back on his home world, with his family and his girlfriend, and is eventually redeemed, something LO3W Prime is explicitly unable to do.
Also for the lack of the suit Prime usually wears, the suit just feeds Prime sunlight, something his cells could already do regardless. He also has arguably his toughest fight without the suit against Sodam Yat as well.
Next, the Phantom Zone. There’s three main points to tackle.
Now another question may come. Why did Superman say Zod was banished here? Simple. Metropia is made from the clay of the Phantom Zone as stated in Superman #214. Zod was in the Phantom Zone for such a long period, he became engrained in its very fabric and nature, causing him to appear in this world created from it. Essentially, the statement has nothing to do with the Phantom Zone being connected to Superman’s nature and physical body. It’s referring to Metropia, a world made from Superman and Lois’s dialogue made from the clay of the Phantom Zone. The only reason Supes is connected to it is because he specifically made it.
The next one is Supes being in a higher dimension. The DC Map states that the Phantom Zone is within the Godsphere, which characters must be dimensionally amped to reside in. However, this doesn’t really change the nature of the Phantom Zone, just its dimensionality. If a higher dimensional being can threaten a higher dimensional Universe, it would still scale to a normal being threatening a normal Universe.
Lastly, people often point out that Superman was unaware that the Phantom Zone could hold a planet, making him not credible on such a statement. Firstly, this doesn’t have much relevance. While he is previously unaware, he has various comics afterwards where he’s living and fighting in it. From there, his credibility can be bolstered due to direct exposure to the capacities of the Phantom Zone. As shown in WITS, Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. This shows how far Superman’s awareness can actually span. We also know stuff like Superman being able to see infinite distances and whatnot, so his awareness spanning this far once within the Phantom Zone is quite plausible. Lastly, it’s sort of a very odd thing to write if it weren’t true. It sorta goes against the intent of a statement that narratively isn’t contingent off being false or exaggerated or ignorant being false. It’s also odd because Superman clearly now knows it’s much larger than Earth, so trying to argue it’s a planetary feat off intent is weird.
- Superman being physically linked to the Phantom Zone
- Superman being dimensionally amped
- Superman being unaware of the structure shaking
Now another question may come. Why did Superman say Zod was banished here? Simple. Metropia is made from the clay of the Phantom Zone as stated in Superman #214. Zod was in the Phantom Zone for such a long period, he became engrained in its very fabric and nature, causing him to appear in this world created from it. Essentially, the statement has nothing to do with the Phantom Zone being connected to Superman’s nature and physical body. It’s referring to Metropia, a world made from Superman and Lois’s dialogue made from the clay of the Phantom Zone. The only reason Supes is connected to it is because he specifically made it.
This is kinda weird, because there’s literally zero mention of him warping or remaking the Phantom Zone. It’s explicitly stated many times it’s a world created, not one simply remade. Again, this is all exclusive to the arc and not a general overview of the Phantom Zone. And for the record, the two Zods fighting are not the same, so being part of the clay doesn’t mean much for Rebirth Zod.He molded the Phantom Zone, or at least a segment of it, into a paradise area to save people. When Zod and him fought they ended up destroying this area, but it was not because of collateral damage on their part. It's what DDM was asking about, since in a previous thread someone was attempting to use the fight to upgrade Superman.
The next one is Supes being in a higher dimension. The DC Map states that the Phantom Zone is within the Godsphere, which characters must be dimensionally amped to reside in. However, this doesn’t really change the nature of the Phantom Zone, just its dimensionality. If a higher dimensional being can threaten a higher dimensional Universe, it would still scale to a normal being threatening a normal Universe.
Lastly, people often point out that Superman was unaware that the Phantom Zone could hold a planet, making him not credible on such a statement. Firstly, this doesn’t have much relevance. While he is previously unaware, he has various comics afterwards where he’s living and fighting in it. From there, his credibility can be bolstered due to direct exposure to the capacities of the Phantom Zone. As shown in WITS, Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. This shows how far Superman’s awareness can actually span. We also know stuff like Superman being able to see infinite distances and whatnot, so his awareness spanning this far once within the Phantom Zone is quite plausible. Lastly, it’s sort of a very odd thing to write if it weren’t true. It sorta goes against the intent of a statement that narratively isn’t contingent off being false or exaggerated or ignorant being false. It’s also odd because Superman clearly now knows it’s much larger than Earth, so trying to argue it’s a planetary feat off intent is weird.
Another side point. The refutation that Superman means to destroy the Phantom Zone with gear is very odd. Separate interpretations are completely fine when they have a basis, but this one has pretty much nothing to it. Superman refers to having the power to do it, and the entire context is around Superman’s moral system and his ability to control his power even with tests and tough times. To say it means gear or even hyperbole with no real basis is sort of disingenuous, especially given the context. Another thing noted is he would have destroyed one, which completely misses the point of not only heroes and Superman, but the scan itself. Supes is talking about on normal days he can control and restrain his morals. As a hero, it’s clearly not in character to go around nuking dimensions.If Superman was capable of destroying a dimension.... we would have seen him at one point destroy a dimension. Inner thoughts during an arc dealing with his extreme anger in regards to someone murdering his entire race that leads to him freaking out is not solid evidence that he can just nuke part of the God Sphere.
Next up is Krona scaling. The first thing to note is this refutation:
As for Hal being on this level being an Outlier, he harmed Black Lantern Crispus, and normal Crispus has fought the Butcher, a weaker Hal has taken attacks from a possessed GLC power battery, he fought the Predator, multiple GLs fought the Guardians with the Entities, Atrocitus fought the Butcher, Hal survived Krona attacking him with the Entities, etc. It's pretty consistent for them to scale to this level, especially in Geoff John's run.
Just to keep in mind, at this point, Hal has fought Sinestro, Lobo, Atrocitus, Larfleeze, Predator, and Parallax Flash, with some of these being extended fights where Hal is clearly harmed, so it should be fair to say this isn't Hal at his full power, and this would explain why Hal does so much better later in the arc. As for this:Krona alone easily stopped all of Hal's willpower, but Hal was able to scratch Krona
This is quite blatantly not true. We literally see Hal make the plan to contact the entities to remove them from the Guardians, which Hal gets Kyle to do by drawing in Krona's book, with Krona still overriding their usage of the rings. At this point, we see Krona get all the rings, and he seemingly attacks Hal with all the entities on panel. On top of this, the entities are only freed after Hal defeats Krona, so it's pretty clear Krona was still controlling them.Krona may have been wearing multiple rings, but the entities are still in the other guardians.
As for Hal being on this level being an Outlier, he harmed Black Lantern Crispus, and normal Crispus has fought the Butcher, a weaker Hal has taken attacks from a possessed GLC power battery, he fought the Predator, multiple GLs fought the Guardians with the Entities, Atrocitus fought the Butcher, Hal survived Krona attacking him with the Entities, etc. It's pretty consistent for them to scale to this level, especially in Geoff John's run.
Now I'll look into two other controversial Hal feats that could be used for this upgrade.
Starting off, we have Hal Jordan knocking off Black Lantern Crispus Allen's jaw in Green Lantern #50. Let's take a look at why this is rejected:
Starting off, we have Hal Jordan knocking off Black Lantern Crispus Allen's jaw in Green Lantern #50. Let's take a look at why this is rejected:
This is kind of hilarious, as obviously it takes lot of power to knock someone's jaw off, and is clearly recoiling as well. Saying that "Lanterns attacked him to no real effect" is also odd, as one of the scans linked has Spectre being stabbed through and yelling. At the very least, Hal does better than the Big Bang level Guardians, who get overpowered pretty quickly and easily. Also, the Lanterns needing Parallax can just be because Crispus was endlessly regenerating, not because he was more powerful than them. Next we have the feat of containing the Universe-threatening U-Bomb in The Green Lantern #6.Unknown | Hal escapes (Crispus Allen) Black Lantern Spectre's grasp and knocks out Black Lantern Spectre’s jaw to no effect. Several lanterns attack him to no real effect.
Limiting this feat to Large Star level is a bit odd. We know the detonation would've affected all matter in DC's Infinite Universe, so it likely should be a High Universal feat. The recorded output being 10^44 joules doesn't really limit much, as it's phrased as limited information and it's said to be "an energy output" rather than "the energy output", so it could be one of many. And while it is true that Hal used energy from the Central Power Battery, it's unlikely this is much of an amp, considering previously mentioned scaling.High 4-C Contained the U-bomb with the Central Power Battery reserves. "All we know is this -- prior to his disappearance, an energy output was recorded equivalent to ten-to-the-44th-power joules."
The U-Bomb's detonation would cause all matter in the universe to bind to a compressed quark core.
Using the Central Power Battery, Hal stops the detonation, is shot into deep space, and is miniaturized into his ring
This one is a really simple debunk. Basically, DC writer J.M. DeMatteis says Superman destroying the Universe is a stretch. Is this conclusive evidence to Kal not being Universal? Not quite.
First thing to cover is alternate interpretations. The first thing is that Superman destroying the Universe will immediately sound like a stretch to anyone familiar with character, since that's not at all something he would do. As well as this, destroying the Universe generally involves having to defeat anyone who'd try to stop him, which is a tall task in a franchise with such powerful characters. As well as this, even if Superman isn't capable of destroying the Universe, that could be due to his range, and he could still have Universal AP.
As well as this, when asked if Superman could destroy the Universe-sized Phantom Zone (as clarified by the questioner), he said he had no clue. This brings us to an important point, DeMatteis' twitter statements are completely unusable for scaling. According to him, anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own. He's also explained that these vs battle questions aren't up his alley, and aren't things he actively thinks about. This carries on to other things, such as how abilities work and if certain comics are dreams.
First thing to cover is alternate interpretations. The first thing is that Superman destroying the Universe will immediately sound like a stretch to anyone familiar with character, since that's not at all something he would do. As well as this, destroying the Universe generally involves having to defeat anyone who'd try to stop him, which is a tall task in a franchise with such powerful characters. As well as this, even if Superman isn't capable of destroying the Universe, that could be due to his range, and he could still have Universal AP.
As well as this, when asked if Superman could destroy the Universe-sized Phantom Zone (as clarified by the questioner), he said he had no clue. This brings us to an important point, DeMatteis' twitter statements are completely unusable for scaling. According to him, anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own. He's also explained that these vs battle questions aren't up his alley, and aren't things he actively thinks about. This carries on to other things, such as how abilities work and if certain comics are dreams.
Are all the Green Lanterns together really only Galaxy level? Feat here comes from Green Lantern #25. Let's take a look.
First thing to look into is the statement for it being Galactic. This is legit, but it's really questionable if this is the maximum range of it, or at least the maximum potency. Let's take a similar example with Monarch, after Superboy Prime breaches his armor, a Universe destroying explosion comes out, and knocks out the 2-C, possibly 2-A Prime. The wiki reasonably treats this as a 2-C, possibly 2-A feat on Atom's page, showing the Wiki excepts the idea of explosions like these having potency greater than their range. Not only this, but something that envelops the Universe would also cover the Milky Way Galaxy, so while nothing states this to be higher, there's no real reason to say this is the limit to it either.
On top of this, let's look into the Lanterns involved. While there's a lot of big names there, Hal and Kyle are off fighting Sinestro, so it's not like literally every Lantern was there. Not to mention, they're literally in the middle of a war against the Sinestro Corps. Hal and Kyle even approach 0% energy, and the Lanterns that contain it are all seemingly scratched up. On top of this, many of the Green Lanterns still had energy left and continued to fight Prime, so they clearly didn't use all of their energy to do this.
In conclusion, nothing actually caps the bomb at Galaxy level. Its range is never limited, and even if it was only Galactic, its potency could be higher. It's also important to take into consideration the state of the Lanterns performing this feat, as many of them were at low levels, or would at least want to conserve energy, which would be a good reason to have as many contribute as possible. Even with this, some big names like Hal and Kyle were absent from this, and many of the ones who were didn't exhaust all their energy.
First thing to look into is the statement for it being Galactic. This is legit, but it's really questionable if this is the maximum range of it, or at least the maximum potency. Let's take a similar example with Monarch, after Superboy Prime breaches his armor, a Universe destroying explosion comes out, and knocks out the 2-C, possibly 2-A Prime. The wiki reasonably treats this as a 2-C, possibly 2-A feat on Atom's page, showing the Wiki excepts the idea of explosions like these having potency greater than their range. Not only this, but something that envelops the Universe would also cover the Milky Way Galaxy, so while nothing states this to be higher, there's no real reason to say this is the limit to it either.
On top of this, let's look into the Lanterns involved. While there's a lot of big names there, Hal and Kyle are off fighting Sinestro, so it's not like literally every Lantern was there. Not to mention, they're literally in the middle of a war against the Sinestro Corps. Hal and Kyle even approach 0% energy, and the Lanterns that contain it are all seemingly scratched up. On top of this, many of the Green Lanterns still had energy left and continued to fight Prime, so they clearly didn't use all of their energy to do this.
In conclusion, nothing actually caps the bomb at Galaxy level. Its range is never limited, and even if it was only Galactic, its potency could be higher. It's also important to take into consideration the state of the Lanterns performing this feat, as many of them were at low levels, or would at least want to conserve energy, which would be a good reason to have as many contribute as possible. Even with this, some big names like Hal and Kyle were absent from this, and many of the ones who were didn't exhaust all their energy.
Who scales to who?
After all of that, we get to the final part. Who scales to who and to what? Here is the listed scaling for who scales what.
Note that any mention of 2-C here might actually be 2-C, possibly 2-A. There's a good amount of stuff for scaling to the 2-C, possibly 2-A characters, but we might also do what we do on King Thor's key or the Cosmic Cube's page where we only scale them to the lower end that's more consistent with their other feats. Also note that anything for "Low 2-C, maybe 2-C" is not me suggesting a possibly rating, rather they either scale to flat out Low 2-C or flat out 2-C depending on where we tier Diana-level characters,
- Black Adam (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, scales very close to Clark
- Captain Marvel (Billy Batson) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, scales close to Clark
- Doomsday (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, beat Darkseid and is on Supes' level
- General Eiling (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, stronger than a full strength JL
- General Zod (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, has pushed Superman and has scaling above Supergirl
- Parallax - Up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+. Hosts vary but some are able to use the entity's power at a comparable level to the real deal, similar to how we treat Ion
- Supergirl (Post-Crisis) - Universe level+, possibly Low Multiverse level. Definitely not on Clark's level, but you might be able to downscale to Low Multi. Should definitely be Low Multi if Diana is.
- Superboy-Prime - Stays as varies with 4-B removed
- Trigon (Post-Flashpoint) - If his only feats are N52, then he's unaffected
- Wonder Woman (Post-Crisis) - Universe level+, possibly Low Multiverse level. Not on Supes' level and has scaling below most Lanterns, but you could probably downscale her and she punched out Kalibak, who could be argued to be on Orion's level.
- Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, scaling off of Flashes and hurting Clark, Diana and Hal
- Batman (Post-Crisis) - Justification is pretty bad but if we can get stuff to substantiate it, prep time Bats could be upgraded
- Martian Manhunter (Post-Crisis) - Universe level+, possibly Low Multiverse level. Scales above Diana and can be argued to be on Supes and peak Lantern's level, but also has a lot of scaling for being below. Has the Darkseid fight in DC One Million as well.
- Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, stronger than Barry who could hurt Hal and scales to Zoom. Wally could harm Zum, who is stated to be Superman level.
- Lobo (Post-Crisis) - Varies up to Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Depends on if we want to downscale him from Clark and Lanterns, and if we want Diana to be Low Multi.
- The Spectre - Should probably be Low Multiverse level in Rebirth, though his justifications atm are based on N52 stuff
- The Joker (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level physicals as Emperor Joker, "Initially 3-A" should be removed
- Solomon Grundy (Post-Crisis) - Varies up to Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Should scale wherever Diana and Kara scale. Alan Scott scaling is weird because Grundy has been described as basically countering Alan due to the nature of the Green and the Grey.
- Superman (Earth-Two) - Low Multiverse level for stalemating PC
- Superman (Rebirth) - Low Multiverse level
- Superman (One Million) - Low Multiverse level
- Superman (Kingdom Come) - Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Is actually weaker than PC Clark, but can be scaled to Power Girl
- Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) - Low Multiverse level, though maybe give it an "at peak"
- Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, downscales from Hal, fought Guardians with the Entity's power, and scales to John
- Orion (DC Comics) - Low Multiverse level, scales to Darkseid and downscales from Clark
- Starro (Pre-Flashpoint) - Low Multiverse level
- Mogo the Living Planet - At least High 3-A, but might have higher scaling
- Thaal Sinestro (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level
- Sodam Yat - His justification is pretty bad with no scans. Maybe could be scaled of Flodo's galaxy level feat if there's no reason to scale him to Clark and Kyle?
- Yellow Lantern Power Ring - Up to 2-C for scaling to Sinestro
- The Phantom Stranger (Post-Flashpoint) - His scaling is from N52 but iirc he fights Diana in Rebirth, so he should probably scale?
- Darkseid - His 4-B should honestly just be removed. He rarely even uses avatars and his emanations have no reason to vary
- Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes) (Post-Crisis) - Probably could be 2-C for scaling off of Guy
- Superboy (Post-Crisis) - Up to 2-C, maybe could mention him fighting Prime
- Flash (Post-Flashpoint) - Not sure if the normally part would have to stay, but if it does, something like 2-C normally, possibly 2-A at peak could work
- Raven (Post-Flashpoint) - If Trigon is scaled off N52 stuff, she'd be unaffected. If it's based off Rebirth, might be 2-C
- Wonder Woman (Post-Flashpoint) - N52 key is unaffected, Rebirth should be 2-C from downscaling from Clark, since she seems to have way closer scaling to him than she had in PC.
- Atrocitus - Normally can be removed, especially considering the Spectre/Butcher stuff was in the same arc he was comparable to Hal and the other Lanterns
- Green Lantern (Alan Scott) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level for scaling to Kyle
- Grail (DC Comics) - Low Multiversal if she scales to Rebirth WW, but I don't see a scan on the profile
- Supergirl (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multi in Rebirth via downscaling seems fine
- Godspeed (Post-Flashpoint) - Up to Low Multiverse level should be fine
- Superboy (Jonathan Samuel Kent) (Post-Rebirth) - I think Low Multiversal is fine, I think he also has some scaling to Orion
- Swamp Thing (Post-Flashpoint) - Unaffected if he's scaled off N52 stuff, but should be Low Multiverse if he's scaled off Rebirth
- Cyborg Superman - Low Multiverse level for scaling to Clark
- Aquaman (Post-Flashpoint) - Justification could use more evidence but he should be Low Multi for scaling to Rebirth Diana
- Zauriel (Post-Crisis) - Either Uni+ or Low Multi depending on where we put PC MMH
- Mister Mxyzptlk - Should have Low Multiversal physicals
- Aquaman (Post-Crisis) - Most of his Kyle stuff seems to be rookie Kyle, who's best scaling is Uni+. If he scales to WW and WW is decided to be Low Multiversal, that's fine too.
- Circe (Post-Crisis) - At least Uni, but should be Low Multi if Diana is
- Larfleeze - Should probably just be "Varies, up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+"
- Star Sapphire (DC Comics) - Her current justification is shaky, but she's done decently well vs Sinestro, so I could see Low Multiversal
- Maxima (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level for her feats against Orion and Pre Death Superman should be fine
- King Shark (Post-Crisis) - Should probably scale wherever Arthur ends up. The Superboy stuff is very early on and the Supes scaling doesn't seem very concrete
- Green Lantern (John Stewart) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, staggered Icon, ahs Entity scaling, and downscales from Hal
- Big Barda (Post-Crisis) - Uni+, maybe Low Multi. Should be above random New Gods and scales to Diana
- The Batman Who Laughs - 2-C is probably fine
- The Drowned - 2-C seems fine
- The Merciless - Ditto
- Red Tornado (Post-Crisis) - From what his justification says, 2-C should be fine
- Ultra Comics
- The Weird (Post-Crisis) - 2-C if we get Pre Death Supes at 2-C. If not it's a bit odd, since he still wiped the League, who don't have a reason to get stronger later
- Anarky (Post-Crisis) - Slightly downscales from 90s Kyle. If we don't era split Kyle, 2-C would be fine, but before Circle of Fire Kyle's best stuff was Low 2-C, with all his better scaling being afterwards.
- Kilowog (Post-Crisis) - Could fight Clark when he had two rings and shouldn't be too far below other GLs, so I don't mind 2-C, but maybe it should be a possibly
- The Devastator - Is stated to be equal to Rebirth Doomsday, so should be straight up Low Multiversal
- The Murder Machine - Low Multiversal might be fine depending on how different his Universe's JL is
- The Red Death (Dark Nights Metal) - Needs scans, but if he scales to Flash Low Multi would be fine
- The Dawnbreaker - Low Multiverse level is solid
- Mother Boxes - Low Multiverse level is probably fine
- Highfather - Low Multiverse level probably. Not one to one with DS and Orion, but not too far off
- Plastic Man (Post-Crisis)
- The Monitors (DC Comics) - 2-C should be fine
- Nix Uotan - 2-C seems fine
- Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond) (Post-Crisis) - 2-C in his last key should be fine
- Mister Majestic - Holy moly his justification needs some work, but 2-C should be fine
- King Shark (Post-Flashpoint)
- Knockout (Post-Crisis) - Should scale to whatever level Diana and Bara are at
- Deathstroke (Post-Flashpoint) - Seems to be based off N52, so unaffected
- Kalibak - His fight with Clark is an alternate future, which we don't use. Also is Pre Death who is in a weird spot atm. Orion scaling is more viable but considering he always loses to Orion I don't know how to feel about him.
- Lightray - 2-C for scaling to Orion seems fine
- Lex Luthor (Post-Flashpoint) - Justification lacks scans for first key, but at face value would be 2-C. The other keys should be 2-C, especially Apex Lex
- Miss Martian - Should scale to whatever we put Kara at
- Weapons Master - If Pre-Death Supes is 2-C, he probably should be too. He's missing the MMH scans but I know he fights him, so if we don't get Pre-Death Supes to 2-C, he should scale to wherever we put J'onn at.
- Guardians of the Universe - Low 2-C for being Big Bang level, specific ones like Ganthet may be 2-C
- Parademon Alien - Low Multiversal should be fine
- Firestorm (Jason Rusch) (DC Comics) - Low Multiversal for scaling off Orion
- Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth) - Should also be Low Multiverse level and maybe should be restructured to "Varies, up to 2-C, possibly 2-A"
- Naomi (Post-Rebirth) - Needs some scans for the justification, but possibly Low Multiverse level might be fine
- Despero (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multiverse level seems solid
- Green Lantern Power Ring - Up to Low Multiverse level for sure
- B-0 (Post-Flashpoint) - Would be unaffected if the scaling is off N52 stuff, but I think he has feats for scaling to Rebirth characters
- Martian Manhunter (Post-Flashpoint) - Very barebones justification. Currently is scaled off N52 Clark who won't be affected, but if someone could get scans for MMH scaling to Rebirth characters, that'd give him Low Multiversal.
- Bizarro - A bit of an odd case, but I don't mind Low Multi downscaling from Supes
- Krypto the Superdog - Either Uni+ or Low Multi, though I might lean towards the latter considering the feat against Mongul
- Ursa (Post-Crisis) - Uni+ or Low Multi depending on where Kara scales
- Black Hand - Low Multi for fighting 100% Hal seems fine
- General Zod (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multiversal seems fine, but I don't really agree with Zod under two suns being above Clark and Hal
- Power Girl (Pre-Flashpoint) - Either Uni+ or Low Multi depending on where we put Diana and Kara
- Power Girl (Post-Flashpoint) - Justification doesn't have key scans and seems to be based off N52 Superman, so might be unaffected
- Starfire (Pre-Flashpoint) - Should probably scale wherever Diana scales
- Blackfire (Pre-Flashpoint) - Ditto
- Hawkgirl (Kendra Saunders) (Post-Flashpoint)
- Hawkman (Carter Hall) (Post-Flashpoint)
- Hawkwoman (Shayera Thal) (Post-Flashpoint)
- Hawkman (Katar Hol) (Post-Flashpoint)
- Rac Shade (Post-Flashpoint)
- Loma Shade (DC Comics)
- Apollo (Post-Flashpoint)
- Etrigan (Post-Flashpoint)
- I, Vampire (Post-Flashpoint)
- Cain (New 52)
- Tig Rafelson (DC Comics)
- Frankenstein (Post-Flashpoint)
- Madame Xanadu (Post-Flashpoint)
- Black Orchid (Post-Flashpoint)
- Ragman (Post-Flashpoint)
- The Bride (Post-Flashpoint)
- John Constantine (Post-Flashpoint)
- Zatanna (Post-Flashpoint) - If she's based off N52 scaling, unaffected. If it's based off Rebirth, should be upgraded
- Nightmare Nurse (DC Comics)
- Captain Atom (Post-Crisis) - His page should probably now be "Varies, up to Low Multi possibly Multi+)
- Captain Atom (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multi seems fine, though unrestricted and with absorption should just say "higher"
- Brainiac (Pre-Crisis) - Unaffected, since it's based off of his own feats in Pre Crisis
- Brainiac (Post-Crisis) - Should be Low Multi at the points where he's currently 4-B
- Brainiac (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multiversal for fighting Clark seems fine
- Papa Midnite (Post-Flashpoint)
- Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) (Rebirth) - Low Multiversal for scaling to the League
- Reverse Flash (Rebirth) - Low Multiversal for scaling off Barry should be fine
- Livewire (Post-Crisis) - Low Multi at peak absorption might be fine if Blue Beetle is
- Superman (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, a lot of this scaling comes from him
- Despero (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, consistently scales above MMH and has taken on whole teams
- Etrigan (Post-Crisis) - Uni+, maybe Low Multi. Has feats scaling him to Diana and is Lobo level
For the sake of cohesion. Superman feats will be discussed here. Green Lantern feats will be discussed here.
Anything that isn't under Superman or Green Lantern will be discussed in this thread.
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