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DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

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Emirp sumitpo

Emirp sumitpo

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How else to start the new year then unleashing hell itself?

Any derailing will be deleted. You have been warned.

Massive thanks to @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Amelia_Lonelyheart, @Confluctor and Highfather, Royals, and Era from Discord.

I should note this only affects Post-Crisis and Rebirth, as the latter scales to the former. We're not touching New 52 and that's for a whole other thread.

Regarding 4-B Heralds

So as of now, the DC heralds have really shaky justifications for their current 4-B rating, mostly containing outdated feats or feat with shaky evidence for 4-B or even scaling to anyone to begin with. So let's fold why 4-B isn't as consistent as it is.

We'll mainly be addressing the Large Star and Solar System level feats that the wiki currently uses, and explain why they don't limit the characters to those levels at all.

The first one to address is that Alan Scott's death would destroy the Solar System, as stated in JSA #19. However, despite this essentially being all of his energy leaking out, it's not concentrated at all, which is very important for Green Lanterns. One of the first and most important things rookie Lanterns are taught is the importance of concentration and focus, as we can see in Green Lantern Corps #27. This can be shown further with this scene from Justice League #1, where even Batman can snatch an unfocused Hal's ring. Concentration is also necessary for full strength, as shown in this scene from Justice League of America #22, where Alan and Hal's full might doesn't work until they concentrate it.

The next feat for Solar System level is the calc for this feat from The Flash #148. Here's the issue with the calc, it says that Flash is using relativistic Kinetic Energy and was just under the speed of light:

When performing the Infinite Mass Punch, The Flash runs just under the speed of light, and per the Laws of Relativity his mass increases exponentially until he reaches the Relativistic Mass of a White Dwarf Star. Thus, we can use the Relativistic KE Formula to calculate the energy of the IMP.
Click to expand...
However, in this instance, Flash was moving exactly at lightspeed is exactly Infinite Mass in DC. Flash's Kinetic Energy shenanigans also certainly do not end at Solar System level, as he increased his mass to let him topple the Crisis on Infinite Earths Anti-Monitor and rupture space-time in Dark Crisis: Big Bang #1.

Next is this High 4-C supporting feat from Action Comics #847, and as is well-known, these are giving off red solar radiation, which is especially harmful to the Man of Steel, so this is a weakened Superman. John Stewart also also has his feat of creating a Solar System in Green Lantern #26, which has been used as a High 4-C supporting feat. This feat is a limit, as it was only temporary and required the full limits of the ring, but not a limit of Attack Potency, but rather to how complex his constructs can be, and how long he can hold them. This is demonstrably not correlated to power, as even Hal Jordan could only temporarily recreate a city before running out of charge, as seen in Green Lantern #48.

Next is the only Solar System level feat from Rebirth, in Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #26, where Orion's battle with an Nth Metal Golem destroys a Star System. While this already isn't implied to be a limit in any way, it's especially apparent that it's not when the next issue, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #27, clarifies it was just the shockwaves of their attacks destroyed the System, as we note on his page.

Another belief is that the 80s cast scaled even lower, citing many feats seemingly limiting the Pre-Death Superman to City level to Island level. While higher statistics could already fit in considering the varies tiering he has, there's little reason to limit him in the first place. Many of the seemingly City level anti-feats include nuclear blasts, which release harmful radiation, which we've seen can nerf Superman due to his solar energy absorption, as seen in Superman #29. We also saw in Superman/Wonder Woman #6-#7 that a nuclear blasts radiation is harmful enough to completely change Superman's appearance, and weakened him to the point where sunlight burned him.

While this is New 52 Superman, Post Crisis Superman has a very similar physiology, and actually absorbs more radiation, as is stated in Superman Annual #1, so if anything, the effects of nuclear radiation would be even more harmful to him. The feat for Island level from Action Comics #652 really has no reason to be a limit, as it's not Superman intentionally trying to cause damage, nor is he even in a fight, he's just enraged from learning what's been controlling him.

Now that's out of the way, we'll go over the many consistent High 3-A to 2-C feats present, and who scales to who.

Tier 3 - 2 feats

3-C​

3-B​

High 3-A​

Superman
Green Lantern
Flash
Wonder Woman
New Gods
Others

Low 2-C​

Superman
Green Lantern
Flash
Wonder Woman
New Gods

2-C​

Superman
Starbreaker

2-C, possibly 2-A​

Superman
Hal Jordan
Flash
Captain Atom

Superman
Wonder Woman
Others

Debunks to the debunks

Might as well address the debunks to these feats. The main threads we're going to debunk are the following three, which are often brought up during the whatever universal DC upgrade there is:

The first thing that a lot of people will bring up is the idea of the Multiverse being weakened, however, this has many, many counters. First, let's go through the reasons people think this. In this statement from Infinite Crisis #3, it's stated the Multiverse was unstable.

First off, the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2. But even if it was literal, the source of the statement is from Alexander Luthor (Infinite Crisis #2), who had pretty much told them everything they believed, and he was the main villain of the story who was lying to everyone, so as a source it's hard to take it seriously.

In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.

It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.

Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.

First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.

A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.

Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.

The next argument is that the feat is metaphorical and didn't actually happen. Let's take a look at the reasoning:

Why is this important? Well neither were in the greatest mindset at the time of the fight; Golden Age Superman is angry, bloodlusted, and focused on killing New Earth Superman meanwhile New Earth Superman is mostly focused on just surviving and keeping up with Golden Age Superman. So they aren’t in a lucid enough mindset to really analyze or know the scope of their clash I would believe.
Click to expand...

While both Supermen are angry, there's no reason to say they're downright delusional to think some space-time shattering is happening when there isn't, especially considering how they continuously experience it.

Next we have these reasonings:

The actual fight between Kal-El and Kal-L in a physical sense only lead to the devastation of a city block.
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This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.

In both Superman Vol. 2 #226 and Action Comics #836 we see Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen respectively during the exact time of the fight living their life and not commenting on any actual collateral damage.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely an argument from ignorance, someone not saying something doesn't mean it's not happening. On top of this, we see a ton of reality shenanigans in these scans, so you could argue they were being affected too if you want to take this literally.

Alexander Luthor doesn’t comment on any spatio-temporal shattering at all which would be a big deal given his project at hand.
Click to expand...

This is also an argument from ignorance. The first point also stands here, that at the point in the fight they got too, they didn't destroy the Universe or anything, just that they were affecting the Universe with their AP.

They aren’t shattering the boundaries of space and time on a universal cataclysmic scale, they are shattering each others’ localized subjective reality’s boundaries which lets them relive each other's experiences rapidly and to their own liking. This was a wholly localized event and not universal in scope.
Click to expand...

Next there's this. The first one is that I don't get how you can change someone's subjective reality by punching them? This isn't stated or implied by anything at all, and in fact there's evidence that it beyond their own memories. We see plenty of events Superman wasn't there for, but rather characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, etc.

Lastly, the back of the comic says they were bending reality, so this seemingly confirms the events being literal.

The big point of contention is how much Superman actually contributes. However, as mentioned before, the DC Universe is far larger than ours, and likely Infinite. On top of that, as stated in Zero Hour #0, the Big Bang created time and space as well, so this is a 4D feat. If Superman was brought to contribute, he must at least be 1% responsible, making this a Universal+ feat.

Even if Supes didn't scale to it, Kyle Rayner (who he scales above, as he took out many Imperiex Probes [Adventures of Superman #594] that could take out Kyle [JLA: Our Worlds at War]) survives it, as he was blasted by it and was still conscious.

Superman also scales above some of the characters who contributed. Superman scales above Guy Garnder (as he could take on DoS Doomsday, who easily took out Guy), who overpowered the Ray in Justice League America #41. Donna Troy is a character generally sub Wonder Woman level, and Superman scales above her, as backed up by numerous sources. Him scaling to Captain Atom is debatable, but if you think Supes only scales to Atom when Atom is holding back and that Atom holds back even in dire situations, this means that this isn't the Full Power Atom who has the Universal creation feats, and it can't be applied to the version contributing to the Big Bang.

The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.

Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.

The first thing I want to point out is that Superman, absolutely, 100% scales to Nebula Man. We see their fight in JLA: Classified #3, and Superman staggers him twice, also tanking his beam without any damage. The only reason anyone doesn't think this is valid is because Nebula Man says this fight was enough for now and he was just testing Superman, but this is clearly just him making excuses, especially when you look at what was said prior.

As stated in JLA: Classified #2, his goal was straight up to kill Superman, and he gasses himself up right before he fights Superman in #3, asking who will fall to him first. His intention was clearly to fight and kill Superman, and he left when he realized his attacks had no effect. Superman blatantly scales above him and Nebula Man's statement is just his ego. Also, as shown in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #3, his head beam is seemingly a move he uses to kill, so this further supports him actually trying vs Supes.

As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.

Lastly, this scan doesn't contradict what's stated above and could even help it, as despite being physically small and compressed, he still could've been a Universe if not for his flaw. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.

Next is the Red King, which is fairly simple. Superman scales to a character that can destroy entire universes.

The Materioptikon is not part of Red King’s abilities, but as shown, that’s virtually irrelevant due to his feats. As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used. His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.

Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures. This can also explain why the League is so amazed by him, as he's ready for anything to go up against and basically can't be taken off-guard. There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny, who’s implied to be superior to the Red King.

While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.

So it had some limited dimensional manipulation but its full extent is unknown. Point is he doesn't scale to breaking probabilities because that is in a context not seen at the moment. That is only when he is in the Materioptikon and using that stone again, not his own power, to destroy obsolete possibilities and using the realm within it as Batman describes in #36 as a "hub world."
Click to expand...
The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.

The first thing to cover is the reasoning people say it's not real. First off, Superman suspects he's hallucinating, but this is just his guess. Death seemingly confirms it is, but then compares regular life to hallucinations too, meaning he's essentially saying everything Superman thinks is real is fake, which obviously isn't true. Superman again asks if it's real, though again, this is still him not being sure.

Superman asks Death if it was all a dream, and Death responds that he can choose to believe it if it comforts him, but really it was on planes of reality where mind and matter intersect. Superman says it was a dream, but this is just him choosing to believe it was. And to further clarify what death is describing, he's talking about a place where Superman's psychological demons take physical form, as he says "where which hides in our dreams takes form", meaning what's happening here was physical. On top of this, in Action Comics #1030, we see Lois referencing it as if it did indeed happen.

As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.

From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant.

Next is Time Trapper. People often say that Trapper was fighting Conner Kent as Superboy Prime in the past, which was shown altering the future. However, this isn’t Conner’s punches literally affecting Trapper through time, just the effects of the fight, such as a wound inflicted still showing. A physical attack landed possibly trillions of years prior won’t have any profound effect on the current state of Trapper. The heat vision is specifically a wound inflicted that never healed.

Even before the reveal and the eventual wounds he suffered, Superman could still survive bloodlusted attacks from Trapper, blitz him and stagger him. The power of Trapper is contentious, as there’s been multiple versions of him according to DC Encyclopedia: New Edition, possible embodying the same being, or possibly hosts more like Spectre. However, this Trapper is at least regarded as a sentient timeline, and would scale off Superboy-Prime.

Side note: Superboy being able to wound Prime also boosts the argument for Superman as well. A lot of people debate Prime’s state, but he was rejuvenated with solar radiation just before encountering Conner. Prime’s rage is debatable and hard to quantify, but before the battle he’s forced to relive the events of Infinite Crisis reversed, with him portrayed as a D list villain, and characters like Superman and Superboy portrayed as heroes. Given that Prime is not only going through the same process as Infinite Crisis, but now attacks against his own status, it’s more logical to say his rage wouldn’t be drastically altered. For context, Alexander Luthor says this in a comic where Prime is back on his home world, with his family and his girlfriend, and is eventually redeemed, something LO3W Prime is explicitly unable to do.

Also for the lack of the suit Prime usually wears, the suit just feeds Prime sunlight, something his cells could already do regardless. He also has arguably his toughest fight without the suit against Sodam Yat as well.

Next, the Phantom Zone. There’s three main points to tackle.

  1. Superman being physically linked to the Phantom Zone
  2. Superman being dimensionally amped
  3. Superman being unaware of the structure shaking
The first one is fairly simple. It comes from Superman #215, where Clark states that Zod and himself are connected physically to the world Zod was banished into, being the Phantom Zone. However, this is not talking about the Phantom Zone. It’s talking about Metropia, a world born from Jor Els technology created off a question Lois presented. This is the world Superman and Zod are fighting in, as mentioned multiple times.

Now another question may come. Why did Superman say Zod was banished here? Simple. Metropia is made from the clay of the Phantom Zone as stated in Superman #214. Zod was in the Phantom Zone for such a long period, he became engrained in its very fabric and nature, causing him to appear in this world created from it. Essentially, the statement has nothing to do with the Phantom Zone being connected to Superman’s nature and physical body. It’s referring to Metropia, a world made from Superman and Lois’s dialogue made from the clay of the Phantom Zone. The only reason Supes is connected to it is because he specifically made it.

He molded the Phantom Zone, or at least a segment of it, into a paradise area to save people. When Zod and him fought they ended up destroying this area, but it was not because of collateral damage on their part. It's what DDM was asking about, since in a previous thread someone was attempting to use the fight to upgrade Superman.
Click to expand...
This is kinda weird, because there’s literally zero mention of him warping or remaking the Phantom Zone. It’s explicitly stated many times it’s a world created, not one simply remade. Again, this is all exclusive to the arc and not a general overview of the Phantom Zone. And for the record, the two Zods fighting are not the same, so being part of the clay doesn’t mean much for Rebirth Zod.

The next one is Supes being in a higher dimension. The DC Map states that the Phantom Zone is within the Godsphere, which characters must be dimensionally amped to reside in. However, this doesn’t really change the nature of the Phantom Zone, just its dimensionality. If a higher dimensional being can threaten a higher dimensional Universe, it would still scale to a normal being threatening a normal Universe.

Lastly, people often point out that Superman was unaware that the Phantom Zone could hold a planet, making him not credible on such a statement. Firstly, this doesn’t have much relevance. While he is previously unaware, he has various comics afterwards where he’s living and fighting in it. From there, his credibility can be bolstered due to direct exposure to the capacities of the Phantom Zone. As shown in WITS, Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. This shows how far Superman’s awareness can actually span. We also know stuff like Superman being able to see infinite distances and whatnot, so his awareness spanning this far once within the Phantom Zone is quite plausible. Lastly, it’s sort of a very odd thing to write if it weren’t true. It sorta goes against the intent of a statement that narratively isn’t contingent off being false or exaggerated or ignorant being false. It’s also odd because Superman clearly now knows it’s much larger than Earth, so trying to argue it’s a planetary feat off intent is weird.

If Superman was capable of destroying a dimension.... we would have seen him at one point destroy a dimension. Inner thoughts during an arc dealing with his extreme anger in regards to someone murdering his entire race that leads to him freaking out is not solid evidence that he can just nuke part of the God Sphere.
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Another side point. The refutation that Superman means to destroy the Phantom Zone with gear is very odd. Separate interpretations are completely fine when they have a basis, but this one has pretty much nothing to it. Superman refers to having the power to do it, and the entire context is around Superman’s moral system and his ability to control his power even with tests and tough times. To say it means gear or even hyperbole with no real basis is sort of disingenuous, especially given the context. Another thing noted is he would have destroyed one, which completely misses the point of not only heroes and Superman, but the scan itself. Supes is talking about on normal days he can control and restrain his morals. As a hero, it’s clearly not in character to go around nuking dimensions.

Next up is Krona scaling. The first thing to note is this refutation:

Krona alone easily stopped all of Hal's willpower, but Hal was able to scratch Krona
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Just to keep in mind, at this point, Hal has fought Sinestro, Lobo, Atrocitus, Larfleeze, Predator, and Parallax Flash, with some of these being extended fights where Hal is clearly harmed, so it should be fair to say this isn't Hal at his full power, and this would explain why Hal does so much better later in the arc. As for this:

Krona may have been wearing multiple rings, but the entities are still in the other guardians.
Click to expand...
This is quite blatantly not true. We literally see Hal make the plan to contact the entities to remove them from the Guardians, which Hal gets Kyle to do by drawing in Krona's book, with Krona still overriding their usage of the rings. At this point, we see Krona get all the rings, and he seemingly attacks Hal with all the entities on panel. On top of this, the entities are only freed after Hal defeats Krona, so it's pretty clear Krona was still controlling them.

As for Hal being on this level being an Outlier, he harmed Black Lantern Crispus, and normal Crispus has fought the Butcher, a weaker Hal has taken attacks from a possessed GLC power battery, he fought the Predator, multiple GLs fought the Guardians with the Entities, Atrocitus fought the Butcher, Hal survived Krona attacking him with the Entities, etc. It's pretty consistent for them to scale to this level, especially in Geoff John's run.

Now I'll look into two other controversial Hal feats that could be used for this upgrade.

Starting off, we have Hal Jordan knocking off Black Lantern Crispus Allen's jaw in Green Lantern #50. Let's take a look at why this is rejected:

Unknown | Hal escapes (Crispus Allen) Black Lantern Spectre's grasp and knocks out Black Lantern Spectre’s jaw to no effect. Several lanterns attack him to no real effect.
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This is kind of hilarious, as obviously it takes lot of power to knock someone's jaw off, and is clearly recoiling as well. Saying that "Lanterns attacked him to no real effect" is also odd, as one of the scans linked has Spectre being stabbed through and yelling. At the very least, Hal does better than the Big Bang level Guardians, who get overpowered pretty quickly and easily. Also, the Lanterns needing Parallax can just be because Crispus was endlessly regenerating, not because he was more powerful than them. Next we have the feat of containing the Universe-threatening U-Bomb in The Green Lantern #6.

High 4-C Contained the U-bomb with the Central Power Battery reserves. "All we know is this -- prior to his disappearance, an energy output was recorded equivalent to ten-to-the-44th-power joules."
The U-Bomb's detonation would cause all matter in the universe to bind to a compressed quark core.
Using the Central Power Battery, Hal stops the detonation, is shot into deep space, and is miniaturized into his ring
Click to expand...
Limiting this feat to Large Star level is a bit odd. We know the detonation would've affected all matter in DC's Infinite Universe, so it likely should be a High Universal feat. The recorded output being 10^44 joules doesn't really limit much, as it's phrased as limited information and it's said to be "an energy output" rather than "the energy output", so it could be one of many. And while it is true that Hal used energy from the Central Power Battery, it's unlikely this is much of an amp, considering previously mentioned scaling.

This one is a really simple debunk. Basically, DC writer J.M. DeMatteis says Superman destroying the Universe is a stretch. Is this conclusive evidence to Kal not being Universal? Not quite.

First thing to cover is alternate interpretations. The first thing is that Superman destroying the Universe will immediately sound like a stretch to anyone familiar with character, since that's not at all something he would do. As well as this, destroying the Universe generally involves having to defeat anyone who'd try to stop him, which is a tall task in a franchise with such powerful characters. As well as this, even if Superman isn't capable of destroying the Universe, that could be due to his range, and he could still have Universal AP.

As well as this, when asked if Superman could destroy the Universe-sized Phantom Zone (as clarified by the questioner), he said he had no clue. This brings us to an important point, DeMatteis' twitter statements are completely unusable for scaling. According to him, anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own. He's also explained that these vs battle questions aren't up his alley, and aren't things he actively thinks about. This carries on to other things, such as how abilities work and if certain comics are dreams.

Are all the Green Lanterns together really only Galaxy level? Feat here comes from Green Lantern #25. Let's take a look.

First thing to look into is the statement for it being Galactic. This is legit, but it's really questionable if this is the maximum range of it, or at least the maximum potency. Let's take a similar example with Monarch, after Superboy Prime breaches his armor, a Universe destroying explosion comes out, and knocks out the 2-C, possibly 2-A Prime. The wiki reasonably treats this as a 2-C, possibly 2-A feat on Atom's page, showing the Wiki excepts the idea of explosions like these having potency greater than their range. Not only this, but something that envelops the Universe would also cover the Milky Way Galaxy, so while nothing states this to be higher, there's no real reason to say this is the limit to it either.

On top of this, let's look into the Lanterns involved. While there's a lot of big names there, Hal and Kyle are off fighting Sinestro, so it's not like literally every Lantern was there. Not to mention, they're literally in the middle of a war against the Sinestro Corps. Hal and Kyle even approach 0% energy, and the Lanterns that contain it are all seemingly scratched up. On top of this, many of the Green Lanterns still had energy left and continued to fight Prime, so they clearly didn't use all of their energy to do this.

In conclusion, nothing actually caps the bomb at Galaxy level. Its range is never limited, and even if it was only Galactic, its potency could be higher. It's also important to take into consideration the state of the Lanterns performing this feat, as many of them were at low levels, or would at least want to conserve energy, which would be a good reason to have as many contribute as possible. Even with this, some big names like Hal and Kyle were absent from this, and many of the ones who were didn't exhaust all their energy.

Who scales to who?

After all of that, we get to the final part. Who scales to who and to what? Here is the listed scaling for who scales what.

Note that any mention of 2-C here might actually be 2-C, possibly 2-A. There's a good amount of stuff for scaling to the 2-C, possibly 2-A characters, but we might also do what we do on King Thor's key or the Cosmic Cube's page where we only scale them to the lower end that's more consistent with their other feats. Also note that anything for "Low 2-C, maybe 2-C" is not me suggesting a possibly rating, rather they either scale to flat out Low 2-C or flat out 2-C depending on where we tier Diana-level characters,


For the sake of cohesion. Superman feats will be discussed here. Green Lantern feats will be discussed here.

Anything that isn't under Superman or Green Lantern will be discussed in this thread.
 
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Welp, time for chaos.

So, I’ve looked over this before and helped gather feats for it, so surprise surprise, I agree with the premise.

For the scaling itself, I’ll advocate for Diana being 2-C. As many of you know, I’m in the process of revising her page, and she has quite a few statements putting her as nearly comparable to Superman. She also has feats of scaling to other 2-Cs like Captain Marvel, Sinestro (a clone, but one comparable in power to the original), Kalibak, Kyle Rayner and a Daxamite that was regarded as comparable or stronger than Superman and Martian Manhunter.

TL;DR, I agree with the upgrade, Diana should be 2-C by downscaling from Clark.
 
In Supergirl 2005 #40, Reactron said he was lying

Superman and Steel move a tesseract
Click to expand...

He's only moving the finite space part, not the infinite dimension within

Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it
Click to expand...

This is defusing a bomb, its not stated he requires equal amounts of energy to defuse it

Kyle Rayner survives being blasted by the Zero Hour Big Bang
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Can you post his next appearance where it shows he survived and the page that showed he took the big bang?
 
It's great to finally see Solar System Lvl PC Heralds so thoroughly put into question, especially with the insane amount of consistent Tier 3 Feats and above feats/statements from just Sups, Barry, and Hal.

Absolutely Agree.

This was really well done!
 
I do agree with this, but I only have one question.
Kingdom Come Superman is weaker than Post-Crisis? I'd like to hear the justifications behind that.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #6, June 2019)
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This is 3-A and seems he had help from the guardians in this book.
XXKINGXX69 said:
In Supergirl 2005 #40, Reactron said he was lying
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Seems he lied about something else and not the statement of having power of a thousand galaxies.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
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Though he states wally has incalculable and infinite power, I think we know what he meant is the speed force but yeah he did still say Wally is comparable to superman or perphaps even possibly more powerful.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang (Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
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This is 3-A not Low 2-C
Emirp sumitpo said:
Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
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Also 3-A not Low 2-C
Emirp sumitpo said:
Kyle Rayner survives being blasted by the Zero Hour Big Bang (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
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3-A not Low 2-C
Emirp sumitpo said:
Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power(Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
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3-A also not Low 2-C
Emirp sumitpo said:
Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos (Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
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Seems 3-A to me.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
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3-A durability with resistance to death manipulation
 
PapiSavitar5025 said:
I do agree with this, but I only have one question.
Kingdom Come Superman is weaker than Post-Crisis? I'd like to hear the justifications behind that.
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I'll let E2B explain that one since he's brought it up iirc.

XXKINGXX69 said:
Can you post his next appearance where it shows he survived and the page that showed he took the big bang?
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I can't respond to the rest as I'm not home, so I can't type a proper reply, but here are the scans for Hal and Kyle surviving it and where Hal and Kyle took it.
 
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Vasco said:
This is 3-A and seems he had help from the guardians in this book.
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The DC Universe is accepted to be Infinite

Vasco said:
This is 3-A not Low 2-C
Also 3-A not Low 2-C
3-A not Low 2-C
3-A also not Low 2-C
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Big Bangs are Low 2-C

Vasco said:
Seems 3-A to me.
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Again, it's High 3-A because the DC universe is accepted to be Infinite

Vasco said:
3-A durability with resistance to death manipulation
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What I just said before.
 
Yeah. Giving this a glance, everything seems rather well-done and well-explained on my end, so I have to give this an Agree FRA as I agree with everything.
 
Vasco said:
This is 3-A and seems he had help from the guardians in this book.

Seems he lied about something else and not the statement of having power of a thousand galaxies.

This is 3-A not Low 2-C

Also 3-A not Low 2-C

3-A not Low 2-C

3-A also not Low 2-C

Seems 3-A to me.

3-A durability with resistance to death manipulation
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Majority of this would be High 3-A because the typical DC Universe is already accepted to be infinite in size.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Barry Allen and Godspeed survived attacks from an amped Paradox, who was destroying the timestream (The Flash Vol. 1 #756, August 2020)
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Scan seems like only Barry did but yeah I know flashes and their villian scale to themselves
Emirp sumitpo said:
Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
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Just asking please how is this 2-C?
Emirp sumitpo said:
Superman separates two worlds(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
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This Big Superman seems to be from another reality how does he scale to normal Superman?
Or did he suddenly become big and isn't that an amp?

Emirp sumitpo said:
Superman one shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
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Would destroying these really be 2-C? Are those realities real and the size of them makes me doubtful as they don't seem like actual Low 2-C universal timelines.
 
At this point in time, we are still going through the Cosmology revision, and I'm unsure which items above intersect with that.

In any case, there are a lot of items to go over. Is it possible to break things up into sections for a more focused discussion? It would be preferable for the thread not to jump from different parts.

I'll be able to go over the items when I'm available.
 
Firestorm808 said:
At this point in time, we are still going through the Cosmology revision, and I'm unsure which items above intersect with that.
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I mean, this doesn't really intersect with the current cosmology revision, as we aren't touching stuff like Tier 1. Just the Herald levels.

Firestorm808 said:
In any case, there are a lot of items to go over. Is it possible to break things up into sections for a more focused discussion? It would be preferable for the thread not to jump from different parts.
Click to expand...
How so?

Firestorm808 said:
I'll be able to go over the items when I'm available.
Click to expand...
Take your time.
 
Looking over it, I agree with the premise of the thread. I'm open to any contention but so far the upgrade itself looks solid. Neutral on the scaling issues, as I'm not as well versed with that as I used to be.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
The DC Universe is accepted to be Infinite
Click to expand...
Still seems he had help by the guardians.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Big Bangs are Low 2-C
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Wow, I thought it was 3-A.
Emirp sumitpo said:
Again, it's High 3-A because the DC universe is accepted to be Infinite
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Didn't know then shouldn't it be removed from Low 2-C to High 3-A tab?
Emirp sumitpo said:
What I just said before
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Then it should be removed from Low 2-C to High 3-A.
 
Regarding Flodo Span, I'm unsure if physical quantities apply.

In the original encounter, Thirty-six Guardians surrounded the MadGod, forming a net with their green light. Time after time they had almost completed their task when MadGod spurted it out past them. In time, though, they managed to create a matrix and calm the sentient sector with their green light, causing it to cohere. It became rational once more and understood the Guardians were its masters. For a creature of pure mind, that understanding became all the Guardians needed to do to imprison the sector for the remainder of time.

Green Lantern Flodo Span is an abstract life form and did not have a physical body as his fellow Green Lanterns did. Seizing on the same plan the Guardians used, Flodo increased his size to grow large enough to surround MadGod. Like MadGod, Flodo Span went mad with his omniscience, but when Driq's body was scattered across the cosmos, Driq's power ring pulled the dead Green Lantern's form together and also constricted Flodo Span, restoring the Green Lantern's sanity. The Green Lantern had compressed it into a ball.

When looking at the panels before and after compression, the space background doesn't seem to change as if a galaxy's worth of celestial bodies around them were all of a sudden compressed into a ball.

MadGod when contained by the guardians was just an abstract entity and didn't have the mass of a galaxy. After all, when MadGod escaped captivity, it's not like he decompressed an entire galaxy's worth of mass back into stars and planets before he faced Flodo. The pure mind went out and possessed another galaxy. Flodo used a similar method and contained the pure mind.
 
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This revision seems sufficiently well-researched for me to find it reliable, but even thought the premises will likely be accepted, we will have to be very careful to only scale from the most blatantly explicit and self-evident feats, and carefully evaluate which ones that are more vague and open to subjective interpretation and remove them afterwards. It is not necessary for us to use absolutely everything here as a foundation.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @Kerfuffles2

Your input would be appreciated here.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
I finished categorizing them. Is it better now?
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I don't see how this resolves the issue of jumping from different character sets in the same thread.

Would it be possible to have a single thread focused on a particular set?

Lantern Corps Thread

Superman Family Thread

Etc?
 
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Firestorm808 said:
I don't see how this resolves the issue of jumping from different character sets in the same thread.

Would it be possible to have a single thread focused on a particular set?

Lantern Corps Thread

Superman Family Thread

Etc?
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Isn't it a thread about herald tier 3/2 feats and scaling and up? I'm confused what you're implying.
 
Vasco said:
I'm not sure the attack hit them if you mean the second scan but the first did hit Godspeed like you said, if it didn't hit Barry then Barry name needs to be removed.
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The one in the second panel is Barry. The one in the fourth panel is Godspeed.

Vasco said:
Isn't it a thread about herald tier 3/2 feats and scaling and up? I'm confused what you're implying.
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He wants to go over the feats for the individual character line ups, like the GL universal feats and Superman universal feats should be in their own threads or something like that.

Idk how I feel about doing that. I'll just wait and see what others think.
 
Vasco said:
Isn't it a thread about herald tier 3/2 feats and scaling and up? I'm confused what you're implying.
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Well, before we go over the scaling chains, the first step is feat evaluation.

I feel it would be more efficient to work on one Character set of feats per thread rather than have everyone work on 4+ different sets at the same time. That way members can go to the character set thread they are most familiar with and focus on that one.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Flash (Post-Flashpoint) - Not sure if the normally part would have to stay, but if it does, something like 2-C normally, possibly 2-A at peak could work
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Could be "Varies up to 2-C", normally 2-C wouldn't make sense for obvious reasons, speed force users powers Varies according to the amount of speed force energy drawn.
Emirp sumitpo said:
The one in the second panel is Barry. The one in the fourth panel is Godspeed.
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Seen my bad didn't see the Barry scan clearly since he took it no diff unlike Godspeed.
Emirp sumitpo said:
He wants to go over the feats for the individual character line ups, like the GL universal feats and Superman universal feats should be in their own threads or something like that.

Idk how I feel about doing that. I'll just wait and see what others think.
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It should be easier to evaluate than currently but it would be much work for you guys but let's see others opinion.
Firestorm808 said:
Well, before we go over the scaling chains, the first step is feat evaluation.
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Pretty obvious
Firestorm808 said:
I feel it would be more efficient to work on one Character set of feats per thread rather than have everyone work on 4+ different sets at the same time. That way members can go to the character set thread they are most familiar with and focus on that one.
Click to expand...
Makes sense but that would depend on the OP and others and I don't think it would be easy for OP to monitor 4 or more threads at the same time.
 
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