DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

The scan shows he is near it.

also, the universe is infinite, it would be high uni

 

[Antvasima]

I still greatly appreciate the staff and knowledgeable members who are taking the time to thoroughly/properly evaluate all of the parts of these feat lists instead of saying blanket "agree with everything" or "disagree with everything" statements, as that kind of approach is downright dangerous for the reliability of our wiki as a whole for this type of revision with a massive number of feats to evaluate, and as such seems irresponsible to me.

 

[Hellbeast]

also, the universe is infinite, it would be high uni

Yeah I'm pretty sure when you reach the ranges of High 3-A distance doesn't matter anyway

 

[Eficiente]

• Wonder Woman has defeated Circe, with Circe only going as far as to call Diana her equal(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #176, January 2002)
  • Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe (War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991), with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)

If you read the "threat to the universe" scans you can clearly see that she's doing nothing that would one-shot it, they just say that it's gonna happen but there is no why or how of it, it would be stupid to just conclude that she can just one-shot the universe from that as nothing states so. Yes, of course the universe would be nearly destroyed by some event that could cause that if finished successfully, that tells us nothing. Worst of all this is a witch that operates through spells with different functions, if she caused all that mess extra care needs to be put to looking at the feat as it would easily be something that her average magic and attacks don't scale to.

I'm gonna read War of the Gods later for more context and continue my evaluation.

• Cirge uses prep time in an elaborated spell to cause this, calling upon the power of Hecate, not even her own.
• 7 pages of things happening later Cirge was still doing that spell, took her quite a while.
• The deistic energy shot by the spell f*ck up Gaea, thereby nature itself & disrupting the fabric of reality itself, which is what will and never did destroy the universe 3 comics later (ignoring tie-ins).
• With the Greek and Roman gods fighting each other blow for blow the belly of the cosmos convules and coughs up its fiery life's blood. All of this gods' power plays a role in f*cking up the universe too.
• Right after that WW in that battle of gods says that they need to stop as the whole universe will be desroyed by this madness. I don't know she knew what happened to Gaea, and she's just attributing it to the gods fighting.
• Darkseid is a bit scared of what's going on in Earth and refuses to invade, kinda funny.
• The universe being messed up is attributed to the gods being at war, right in the first page of the second issue.
• Cirge super amped herself by sucking energy from the power of all the godly pantheons her spell affected.
• Cirge says that the energy from the the seeds of the gods' ferocious folly strengthens her and Hecate.
• After heroes and villains made an assault at Olympus it's commented how the gods could have killed them all 100 times already if they really wanted to, and that Circe did something to their minds.
• Cirge is teleported to Limbo, where the power of all gods is weaker, WW defends from attacks via items she was given and a god haxes away Cirge, the end.

So, all the reasons that make this wrong;

• It's a spell with no reason to scale to her regular magic.
• The spell takes a lot of time to make.
• Once done, it takes forever for the universe to be destroyed.
• This is not Cirge's power, it was
  • Hecate's power
  • and also caused by all the gods' power fighting each other

It's literally impossible for anyone to read the comic, or even the scans selectively chosen with an amped Cirge, and conclude that she's Low 2-C. It doesn't make any sense from any possible interpretation.

• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)

The ones meditating are the 2 ones meditating, the one creating a universe is the woman with an energy sphere in her hands with a little person inside. We have no context for this, they may easily be pocket universes. Even then, Creation feats=/=AP.

• Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multiple times, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)

Killed everyone in the JL minus Supes as he was yet to do that

Ok, nice scaling going.

Says that no weapon can harm him.

That would be adding things like GL's ring, wtf.

a Moon level explosion will kill him

Wtf.

destroyed realities

The portrayal of what in the scans show is false as usual, he just caused 1 reality to be destroyed, not many. His reality melted for no reason, it can easily be ED rather than AP and Durability.

multiple times

He's at least doing it on purpose, that's neat but it still amounts to nothing. The melting is unlike other attacks he uses, it's shown to kill Supes, MMH, Flash, WW and GL there, who are all at Supes' level.

containing multiple Universes

So all those characters always get destroyed in those realities, now that's consistency. With no further context that reality having universes wouldn't be 2-C at there is no set Higher Dimensional space between them alike a real multiverse, it's like creating a bunch of stars too close to each other, destroying them, and calling that 4-A.

Now, let's read the comics...

• The Materioptikon is the main mcguffin the villian uses. It's a dream gem with the power to reshape reality, but it's cracked and can make possibilities real.
• The fabric of space-time was never meant to be bifurcated, all existence could be threatened by such a subdivision. That didn't take a lot of time.
• When a "universe" is destroyed inside the gem, it's not real, just a possibility. It's as real as Dr. Destiny, whose currently a dream himself made of pure thought. Other people's versions in those "universes" aren't corporeal nor real. Making those universes real is something that the fabric of reality can't handle, on its own. Then RK makes them real anyway with the gem.
• Dr. Destiny calls RK an idiot as he just endangered all of coninuity-- --the very nature of spae and time.
• RK fools the world in each universe he created into giving him powerups, those are his powers.
• RK's doomsday device can destroy Earth, it blew up & killed him. The way it works is that it destabilized Earth's core so that Earth will be torn apart in 98 hours (So powerful).
  • Nope, wait, it's way worst. He survived badly damaged, the explosion dragged him from the top of a building to near the center of the Earth, that's like 1/4 of the damage he would take from Doomsday's super move in Injustice. And immensely below Planet level.
  • Nth metal atomic grade incediary devices were used too.
• Later he destroyed a reality with the gem from inside the gem.
• By the time Supes says that the universe has many universes, it makes no sense, he just got things wrong as nothing that came before implies that, Batman has all the info & he just told it all to Supes. GL then tells Supes that he was emotional and Supes calls the destruction of his universe "galactic destruction". (Alternatively, Supes thinks reality goes as in multiverse, which is still wrong as that's not how RK's powers work)
  • This is also said as "this plane of existence melts down".
• RK then destroys that reality with the gem from within the gem. Thinking that another version of himself was there alive, this is portrayed as something that would have killed him (he was alive, just badly damage from his doomsday device, so he did die).
• The second doomsday device is fake but RK is scared AF that it will kill him, and it would have killed the JK too if it were real. Inside the gem Dr Destiny has godly powers, given his relation to it and powers.

So,

• Red King does not scale to his Materioptikon gem at all, he can only destroy the universes he created with it from inside the gem. He dies from the destruction of the universe and even something below Planet level. Dream-based power are amped inside the dream gem, there is no reason to say he could destroy his universes from outside of them as he always did so & merge them from inside the gem.
• Red King upscales from the JL yet has anti-feats to give given everything he dies from, the JL can die from the same things. MMH even needed intangibility to survive a city-destroying meteor.
• (That initial threat Dr Destinty gave didn't end up mattering, the story didn't go that direction.)

This feat was awfully researched, it makes me wonder if they just saw things that sound impressive and copy-paste that along with whater looks like scaling to whoever did the feat w/o reading the comics.

I will go over the rest """soon""".

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)

The ones meditating are the 2 ones meditating, the one creating a universe is the woman with an energy sphere in her hands with a little person inside. We have no context for this, they may easily be pocket universes. Even then, Creation feats=/=AP.

3-A: Universe level​

Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space

Also, assuming they are 'pocket universes' would just be headcannon, unless you have anything that backs it up.

 

[Stefano4444]

Cirge

Its Circe, not Cirge.

Also glad to know that i was correct about Circe feat all along.

 

[Hellbeast]

3-A: Universe level​

Characters or objects that can create or destroy all celestial bodies within a finite 3-D space

Also, assuming they are 'pocket universes' would just be headcannon, unless you have anything that backs it up.

This, Creation isn't always equivalent to AP but in cases where there's a UES or if it's equivalent to AP it can be used iirc.

 

[Stefano4444]

This, Creation isn't always equivalent to AP but in cases where there's a UES or if it's equivalent to AP it can be used iirc.

The New Gods do have their own UES which come from the Source.

 

[Hellbeast]

The New Gods do have their own UES which come from the Source.

Yep so it’d be admissible regardless
(Reminds me, the New and Olympian Gods need TLC)

 

[Armorchompy]

This feat was awfully researched, it makes me wonder if they just saw things that sound impressive and copy-paste that along with whater looks like scaling to whoever did the feat w/o reading the comics.

(efi please don't be rude to people)

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to keep a tally of all the feats that have been accepted or debunked/rejected through careful analysis here please?

 

[Firestorm808]

So is somebody willing to keep a tally of all the feats that have been accepted or debunked/rejected through careful analysis here please?

I have been updating my tally post as we get more.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for the help. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I have been updating my tally post as we get more.

what is it so far

 

[Firestorm808]

what is it so far

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5379794

 

[Eficiente]

(efi please don't be rude to people)

Aside from the other thing I said that I could have expressed differently, there isn't anything wrong in reviewing things with the lowest scores one could give, or even suspect there being something more to it if reasonable. It's constructive, they each have a simple purpose behind that's why the comments are even made, it's not just "Well, he's just a jerk" as some may think. I'm not gonna avoid saying things like "This feat was awfully researched" if I both conclude that a feat was awfully researched and the way in which that's done is worth saying that. If the things that happened in the feat were more confusing, led to common misconceptions on how to handle the feat among users, was done along a shorter event/story (and so less time & care was put to it), newer users were the ones to claim this, etc. I would sure say something else. I'm not gonna avoid saying things like "it makes me wonder if they just saw things that sound impressive and copy-paste that along with [whatever] looks like scaling to whoever did the feat w/o reading the comics" if I evaluate the feat and evaluate that this is something that makes sense to say. I perfectly agree with our limits on what's too much, but limiting it ever further to the degree that sounding rude is bad like this is wrong, because that's not healthy. Idk how accurate the following feats will be, but I won't stop saying their degree of wrong if I judge it appropriate and something improvable around the feat itself if I judge it appropriate too.

 

[Armorchompy]

How about instead of typing up a text wall the second you're criticized you just stick to debating instead of making accusations you don't know for sure aren't true, it's completely purposeless and reflects poorly on you (and the wiki as a result). No one cares about your personal judgement, stick to facts.

 

[Qawsedf234]

debunked/rejected through careful analysis here please?

It'll probably end with like, 70-80% of the feats being rejected with the remainder being useable in some way.

I say just stick with stuff that's mostly clear-cut and just remove everything not agreed upon.

 

[Eficiente]

How about instead of typing up a text wall the second you're criticized you just stick to debating instead of making accusations you don't know for sure aren't true, it's completely purposeless and reflects poorly on you (and the wiki as a result). No one cares about your personal judgement, stick to facts.

You are wrong, you ignore how unhealthy it is to have that attitude by not caring on what I had to say. "No one cares about your personal judgement, stick to facts" shows double standards as you also portray this as "typing up a text wall the second you're criticized", implying what I said was hollow, in big amounts so it may be hard to read, and a reply way too quick that didn't took its time to have its own reason; that is a personal judgement and not sticking to facts, I'm not going up against some philosophy of attitude here, if the people who doesn't like what I write were to write down how exactly they want things to be they would easily find that they follow some insane double standards as they themselves can be rude AF when replying in debates and try to be assertive beyond what specifically matters to be added in profiles, heck they even do that at people's backs. It's hard to see because it's way too normalized, there is too much toxic positivity around, and it's far easier to see people being rude & people being offended by it, but it's still something abusive. If you disagree with this, bring it up elsewhere, not in this thread.

I said what I said because I will likely say something in the future that some people's not gonna like, and I found important to say "Hey, I'm gonna do this, because it's not wrong" as a comment told me "Don't do that, because it's wrong". I found that I put some small care into the matter by doing that, not what your comment says.

 

[Eficiente]

No one cares about your personal judgement

Furthermore (different from the comment before), surely some people get to have a better experience in Vs Debates based on my personal judgement and it helps in some way, likely in the way I intended, that's sounds sufficient to me. Other people will not like it, sure, I could even be 100% wrong, people will look at it, think "This is wrong" & move on, that can happen at times, and I'm aware of it. I work with what I have, aim to remove those bits is oppressive. I'm sure that by how normalized things are one may read "oppressive" and think it's exaggerated, but it's not, it demands to not do something anymore, affirms that nobody cares about it & implies that no one was ever helped by it.

 

[Armorchompy]

bro i literally just asked you to be polite

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

It'll probably end with like, 70-80% of the feats being rejected with the remainder being useable in some way.

I say just stick with stuff that's mostly clear-cut and just remove everything not agreed upon.

How many feats are even on the thread

 

[Antvasima]

It'll probably end with like, 70-80% of the feats being rejected with the remainder being useable in some way.

I say just stick with stuff that's mostly clear-cut and just remove everything not agreed upon.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

As for Eficiente, I agree with him about that we need to have truthful and direct communication if something seems genuinely suspicious and a logical pattern has emerged, although I usually tend to try to find a way of saying the same thing worded in a less potentially offensive manner in such situations, so maybe Eficiente could try simply being blunt and truthful in a more tactfully worded manner?

 

[Vasco]

I remember a post about Efficiente saying obliterating reality Is 3-A but can't seems to find it, anyways that's Low 2-C not 3-A, reality isn't just the material universe alone.

 

[Qawsedf234]

How many feats are even on the thread

I'd guess pobably somewhere between 30 to 40 with 10-ish being non-controversial or pretty direct.

 

[Armorchompy]

IMO even just 10 is enough to accept, I don't think there's any tier in either DC or Marvel that's based on so many feats, and it would doubtlessly be an improvement from our 4-B ratings which are basically invalid.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Could this count? Now, it would sound like a hyperbole on its own, but note that Clark explicitly states he's stronger than he ever was, and the pre crisis continuity got returned for the multiverse. Not to mention that iirc one of the authors said they're bringing Superman back to his more silver age iteration
Action Comics 1050

 

[AndrewBennet]

Phantom zone can easily be considered as an outlier feat.
In DC cosmology phantom zone exists above all the definitions of all time /space and beyond the wonderworld which bottled higher dimensions . Flash and other heroes need the aid of metron tech to safely move to the realms beyond time and space .

Do anyone have the scans of current Superman escaping hypertime in recent comics and absorbing crisis energy of an entire universe ?

 

[Hellbeast]

Phantom zone can easily be considered as an outlier feat.
In DC cosmology phantom zone exists above all the definitions of all time /space and beyond the wonderworld which bottled higher dimensions . Flash and other heroes need the aid of metron tech to safely move to the realms beyond time and space .

Thing is dimensions from the Sphere have echoes in the actual multiverse so it wouldn't necessarily be one

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Could this count? Now, it would sound like a hyperbole on its own, but note that Clark explicitly states he's stronger than he ever was, and the pre crisis continuity got returned for the multiverse. Not to mention that iirc one of the authors said they're bringing Superman back to his more silver age iteration
Action Comics 1050

I'd prefer we leave that one alone for now and wait for further context on what that might mean.

 

[Vasco]

Does Orion Astro-force varies in power?

 

[Firestorm808]

Does Orion Astro-force varies in power?

Depending on the situation, yes. The Oblivion Bomb counter was his max, I think.

 

[Vasco]

Depending on the situation, yes. The Oblivion Bomb counter was his max, I think.

Okay, thanks.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Having a power source=/=being able to attack with his full power per blow unless proven, otherwise 1 attack would dry the Tesseract from all that infinite energy I assume it has, and it is an assumption, the thing having infinite space =/= it having infinite energy for CB to take, necessarily.

In the same panel, he quite literally states that he is control over the energy, and proceeds to elaborate further that he can mold it, shape it and even expand it at will, etc.

It wasn't called "Infinite" but "unregion of infinitely compressed space" by a character that talks odd. Idk what "unregion" means, I think she means region, as in the PZ being limited, but more significantly she is clearly being hyperbolic on how compressed the PZ is in size, and calling a universe infinite is a common hyperbole, so the feat would only be shaking a universe at best.

The shaking also likely refers to the earthquakes in the distance, which would intuitively be the area around rather than every area of the anti-universe that could have earthquakes. Also also, it wasn't due to a punch, the punch happened, then more fighting was happening, and among it the fear happened. It was by the fight in general rather than that 1 punch seen the page before.

I don't see how a character who talks odd would change anything. The fact it's stated to be an Anti-Universe would make it High 3-A in size, as we already accept the DC universe to be High 3-A in size as well. Furthermore, in Adventure Comics 11 (July, 2010), Mon states the Phantom Zone to be endless, and the Phantom Zone is called endless once again, in Action Comics Vol 1 Annual 11 (July, 2008)

Superman literally states "The Phantom Zone" to be the one that's shaking, not just the area surrounding him. It's very straightforward. And even if it took multiple punches, it's still be High 3-A, as you can't divide such a thing.

1) This is clearly poetic. 2) Being a conduit to that isn't the same as being it anyway. 3) Those rings clearly have limits to what they can do, even when not used in a way that's shooting their regular AP. 4) Why do you keep starting those words with caps when the comic doesn't? Is it just to make it look more notable when the comic doesn't give it that importance?

1) Why would it be poetic? 2) It's referring to the Green Lantern rings being conduits to the Green Power, which are stated to be Infinite. 3) Why would them having limits debunk them having High 3-A power, when we know High 3-A is far from the strongest thing in DC. Also Lantern rings can also be affected depending on how much willpower the user has or their own ring charge. 4) What has that got to do with anything? The comic is literally all caps.

The living planet is a never-ending resource of power due to being self-sustained, as it is abundantly more likely to take from this.

The comic is referring to the power Mogo has finally gotten back and had once possessed, not anything to do with his self sustenance.

This is meaningless due to their size contained in a smaller space. Even then, it would be a Creation feat.

We've covered that in here. And their creation feats absolutely scale to their AP. They literally fight others with the same energy they use to build things.

This is just a casual conversation, it can't possibly be used.

Why would it being a casual conversation even matter.

Power with relation of the universe=/=High 3-A.

Nero states he could bend the universe to his will in that same panel, which would imply the power in relation to the universe would scale to AP.

Where do I start? "The power inside you" likely refers to the Speed Force. He's talking about Flash being powerful in a way he doesn't understand and know yet, this is pure potential, not standard. He also refers to the way he defies physics, so in context this infinite and incalculable power would have nothing to do with High 3-A as even moving at lightspeed yields infinite energy, and do something incalculable via ignoring physics can be anything. The fact that he doesn't know if Supes is above him shows uncertainty, not scaling.

He's using powerful in the same context as he's describe Superman being powerful, and him being uncertain doesn't matter. He's certain Wally has infinite power, but isn't certain he's above Superman, therefore Superman must be at least somewhat comparable and can't be infinitely weaker

So,

• The "fireball" has the accumulated power of all the gods in that comic (all of them minus Ares) intensified by prayers, which itself is a greater power than any one god that lives in Olympus. Note that even 1 god is more powerful than WW.
• WW did this solely due to their bracelets, her bracelets scale, not her at all. Even then she was pretty overwhelmed by doing this.
  • WW has the ability to amp cosmic/godly energies deflected by her bracelets, so very situational Stats Amp for her.

1. WW being superior to the gods here wouldn't contradict much as the Gods themselves can vary in power depending on how much belief they have.
2. The scans stated that the braces were buttressed by Amazon muscle, Diana clearly helped with the feat.

I have rejected that scan in the past, Flash's body mass incresing towards infinity doesn't mean he has infinite mass as in High 3-A, but that he has an ever-incresing mass the more he reaches lightspeed, with no limit to it. He didn't reach infinity as in High 3-A, the scan doesn't say that. The rules for this are variable anyway, a Speedster going at lightspeed can also make them have enough mass to destroy themselves uncontrollably as they become a singularity (See here the last feat in AP and Note 2)

Approaching infinity, while approaching lightspeed would mean that Infinity and lightspeed are interchangeable in this context. And Zoom literally punches Diana at lightspeed.

This is such anti-feat for Low 2-C. If any one of them was Low 2-C, one quick attack would do it, yet they have have to continually shoot for a long time, not only is this something they can't do alone, but even if it was 1 character doing this the fact that it's over some time means their every regular blow would be lower than this & thus wouldn't scale. There is a small, actually dumb logic tangle to this; "Low 2-C divided is still Low 2-C, so the fractions of it shown don't matter", right? Wrong, it's wanting to have your cake and eat it, under that own (correct) logic the fact that 1 character alone couldn't do it means 1 alone isn't Low 2-C, as they should be as that stat can't be divided, making it mean that their combined attacks being channeled by someone that controls energy has it greater than the individual sum of its parts, because again, 1 Low 2-C attack alone would do it otherwise. Same with the time it took them to charge this, if their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak was Low 2-C then 1 quick blast would do it, as since it has to be continuous for some time that means what can be acquired doing that is greater than their every punch, kick, energy blast, etc. at their peak. "Low 2-C can't be divided" is used as a tool, what serves of it is used, and what contradicts things is literally inconceivable, that is being disingenuous.

The Spectre is the one that fills what they were accumulating into what turned into a new universe anyway, I don't think I need to say what this means.

There's a reason called downscaling you know, also "Low 2-C divided is still Low 2-C, so the fractions of it shown don't matter" is literally the standard. It's something you simply cannot divide no matter what.

We literally explained this in the OP.

The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.

Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.

Sculpt space-time are abilities, I know it's there "for context", but it shouldn't, as no profile's AP would say that. Similar with having "the energies of space and time".

I went to see the comic for context, after all "We thought we could find answers about our past in the past-- --and gave no thought to how badly the timescream was damaged before we took a deep plunse!" clearly implies the timescream was damaged beforehand and that what they do is otherwise inoffensive thing that's only causing issues due to that damage the timescream already had, and what I found was laughable. Legit the first scan; "The thirtieth century is crumbling. Each new second brings with another paradox... Each heartbeat, another contradiction in chronal continuity. Heroes thought long dead reappear without warning...while champions cherished as vital and alive vanish just as suddenly... ...and with each such entrance and exist the temporal fabric that knits the universe frays chllingly further." The timescream was already pretty f*cked up, Infinite-Man's power was a push further that would destroy it. This is following DC's rules on paradoxes and contradictions in a timeline that on their own damage a timeline, not AP.

That same first scan also says that Infinite-Man's power "might have contained the carnage", which means he might have been able to fix the paradoxes and contradictions talked about in that page, which is unqualifiable as they don't destroy the timeline or universe on its own, it's those 2 villains further f*cking things up that would cause that, and it's Space-Time hax anyway that fixes some things here and there that aren't meant to be a certain way (People being in points in time where they're not meant to, use Space-Time hax to fix that is pretty worthless).

All the damage to the timestream before was done by Infinite Man's power as well, it's not that the timestream was weakened by something else, it's all attributable to him. That's what the whole comic is about. The Paradox point seems irrelevant and I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it.

We'll answer the rest later.

 

[Eficiente]

• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos (Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)

"Cosmos" is a tricky word, while it can just mean the universe, it can also be unqualifiable sections of it as it refers to it as an orderly harmonious systematic universe. What makes it stop being orderly harmonious systematic? Whatever you feel like it stops the universe from being that, maybe you destroy a planet and it stops being that, maybe some solar systems, maybe a galaxy, who knows. By my own standards, I would not sure it as anything more than supporting evidence if other stuff already proves that a feat already targets the universe, it's too poetic of a word.

Wielding a power source =/= having its full Tier unless proven. Orion's regular AP for punches & kicks may differ from his Astro-Force.

It says there that of the other gods only he can do it, this is an anti-feat for them and a clear portrayal of the Astro-Force as something above his regular stats (as he scales to other gods), that's the reasonable conclusion to make out of this.

I'm gonna read the comic in case there's even more stuff against this, as I reasonably don't trust that more info against the feat would have been recognized.

• The armada "will move to destroy the Earth, and all the cosmos with it!"
• The armada has a weapon whose power has the "potential to annihilate the entire universe".
• The armada are made up of people less w/o gods as Darkseid killed their gods, they were stripped from all tha gives their lives meaning and purpose, and in the destruction of the universe they see nothing less than fitting retribution.
• That's followed by the scan used in the OP, it's the next page.
• "The device allegedly created to destroy the entire universe!", it makes the expantion of the universe be reversed, causing the universe to collapse in an instant into a colossal black hole
• There is "one power in this universe" that "would be up to the task of contanning that effect, should the bomb be triggered. The Astro-Force, once wielded by Orion."
• Darkseid says that the armada threatens all with oblivion as he kills their leaders, there is no reason to say he would have survived their weapon.
• Orion comes into drawn in by his Astro-Force, sensing this device something which is the very opposite of its own nature.

So, a weapon that can destroy the universe can be stopped by the Astro-Force, either solely due to its a 3-A AP or AP being unqualifiable due to acting in a way that is the very opposite of its own nature (After all, there is no reason to believe it would still be able to stop the weapon should their natures not be opposites. For all we know if they weren't opposites the Astro-Force could be worthless for the job). No New God can stop this weapon. Orion doesn't scale to this use of his Astro-Force.

• Superman separates two worlds(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • These worlds are represented as tapes, the literal fabric of reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021), and each strip is a different reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #20, September 2021)

That those tapes are realities is worthless as they are still tapes, if something super complex comes in the form of something lesser in size & weight then you have no reason to apply the rules to the former to the latter, not doing so taking less speculation, i.e. "Supes separated 2 realities"<"Supes separated 2 tapes". You are also omitting to present this as a LS feat, as with how the feat is claimed it would be Universal LS, which is pretty easy to see how much of an outlier that is. Playing along the premise the feat would only be 3-A, as there is no established space between universes, the universes literally exist in a vacuum, as tapes, everything outside a tape is not part of its universe.

Also, see how a giant Supes does the feat while a smaller one watches? The miniture versions of characters come from the tapes. Meaning the tapes/realities and characters inside are smaller. Which needless to say screws up the premise of this proposed feat even more. A Parademon is able to lift and carry around 1 of this tape realities, Universal LS for Parademons?

• Superman one shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021), and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)

Many things. Playing along it's only 3-A as said before. It's far less as it's just to set tapes on fire to burn them away. When the characters from this tape realities come out they do so as miniture versions, no reason to believe that this universes are as big & complex as real universes. Even if they were, it would be a Creation feat rather than anything that could be used offensively.

• Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
  • Superman and Hal Jordan have fought Starbreaker's pull (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29, March 2009), and Icon and John Stewart have staggered Starbreaker (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)

You must be naming him "person who merged Universes" from the future, he was doing that before those scans and it would take him "months, if not years" to finish in those scans, the Tier for doing this is separated from his regular stats like punches & kicks, and it's Unknown due to how unqualifiable it is the time it takes him to do that.

Starbreaker didn't overpower him, it never says that, but that since he's merging the universes he doesn't have power to spare on the fight nor time for it. That's literally what the text says, somebody read that but wrote that Starbreaker overpowered him instead. That's disingenuous. This is just whatever Tier it takes to merge the universes not leaving anything to spare for combat enought to kill Starbreaker, which is a nonfeat. Heck he would be able to kill Starbreaker if he wasn't busy, so that's an anti-feat for Starbreaker, he dies from the guy who can merge universes over time if he isn't already using all his power for the biggest feat he can pull off.

2-C, possibly 2-A

Why is this even proposed? How could they ignore all the anti-feats that make that nonsensical? All the feats below could be legit and it would still be underwhelming and insufficient. All like 9 feats of them.

• Superman tanks a blast from Mordru and harms him. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)

I like this one, it's just a simple, innocent outlier. Mordru criticizes Supes for attacking head-on, Mordru then gets tagged by magic from behind as the attacker brags about how it was an attack from behind (I would think they're trying to justify having been able to achieve this), Supes follows up with a punch. This is just a standard comic outlier, Mordru was taken off-guard, an out load reason was given as to why this was achieved, and he was attacked with magic of unknown effects (could be hax, if so not even an outlier).

Also I don't think Mordru is just always 2-C, possibly 2-A, in his fight with Hector Hall we see a future version of him defeated by regular heroes.

• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)

Least of my issues with the thread, but why is this portrayed as 2 different feats?

Why is it that we claim that SP "Should be as powerful as the original Time Trapper" in his profile? His speed is also pretty wrong, being a sentient timeline and existing outside of the flow of linear time grants nothing speed wise, and he's not even outside of time but at the end of time. I don't see why he isn't just at the same level as regular Superbody-Prime.

• Superman punches out Barbatos (Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)

Back to being disingenuous again, this is a chained up, imprisoned Barbatos, it stands to reason that he would be weaker.

• Hal Jordan knocks off Spectre (Crispus Allen)'s jaw, staggering him and freeing the Guardians, and stabs him with help from the Guardians (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #50, March 2010)

This is a black lantern-revived Spectre, he's zombified / rotten / with less durability by the decomposed state he's in.

• Hal Jordan defeats Krona (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), who had the power of the Emotional Entities (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #64, May 2011)

He could control them as in their actions, he sent them to possess other Guardians. That's not the same as he getting each of their AP added into his own while they also remain their own AP.

• Wally West fights Pre Crisis Reverse Flash(The Flash Vol.2 #224, September 2005)
  • Pre Crisis Reverse Flash himself, is consistently a match for Pre Crisis Barry Allen. Wally is also superior to Barry Allen.

Why is Pre Crisis Barry Allen 2-C, possibly 2-A? Most of his feats are very underwhelming, why is he "Comparable to Pre-Crisis Superman" as the profile says?

• Captain Atom is sent flying by someone he compares to an out of control Superman, and believes he'd need all his power to defeat her (Captain Atom: Armageddon Vol. 1 #7, June 2006)

The comparison made is super vague, hit with everything he got can easily refer to the standard levels he works with given how normalized he has to not work with his peak levels.

SUPPORTING EVIDENCE

So, the idea of supporting evidence on how it's applied like this is unprofessional. If something doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, if it won't be added to a character's AP as a feat at their same Tier then it has no value for that Tier. If it sounds powerful then cool, but that's the value it has on its own, that it sounds powerful, cool, and esoteric. This "supports" any Tier like it would being called powerful, mighty, very strong. It's not incorrect to call it support, but it's all useless as the information that gives a character its Tier is what makes up its Tier. It's not incorrect to call that support useless too.

Not scaling tho, that could come in handy, but it's not "supporting evidence", just the current state of things.

• Supergirl and Superman tank attacks from Blackstarr, who has power over the energy of the cosmos. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #850, July 2007)

He can manipulate the energies of the cosmos around himself to attack others, this has no value.

• Superboy is able to damage Superboy-Prime (Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)

Yeah, Superboy-Prime's at that level. Have you seen his profile and feats? Also remember when he wanted to blow up the universe and thus kill everyone minus himself, including Superboy?

• While fighting a serious Captain Atom, Hank Hall Monarch twisted space and time, destroying Universes within atoms(Armageddon 2001 Vol. 1 #2, October 1991)
  • Superman could have stopped Hank Hall Monarch. (Adventures of Superman Annual #3, October 1991)
  • Hank Hall Monarch is comparable to Despero and Dreamslayer (Justice League America Vol. 1 #87, April 1994), with the latter being a rival to Darkseid (Justice League America Vol. 1 #88, May 1994)
  • Superman is implied to be capable of defeating Extant, who is stronger than Hank Hall Monarch. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #1, September 1994)

Smaller universes, it's unqualifiable.

"He might have been on Earth to stop the Monarch. Indeed, the Monarch might never have arisen of course, there woud be nothing left for the monarch to covet." more so sounds like Supes could have stopped him before the gained power, not that he can match his power & thus stop him. Even then it's very indecisive, this job for Superman may be like its own comic where he has an adventure where he wins at the end, he doesn't need to be as powerful as the villain. Reading the comics it's a time travel story where the present is before 2001, Monarch killed everyone in 2001 and rules the future 30 years from there, the villain is that future Monarch, it makes perfect sense that Supes would be able to stop him at a point where he was weaker.

"implied to be capable of defeating Extant" is just him going to attack and getting punched. Why would this be the same Monarch from that timeline 30 years into the future that didn't come to be?

• A battle between Diana and Cassie makes it seem like the energies of the Universe are erupting and will tear the foundations of reality (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #156, May 2000)

I wonder if the universe can just float fine w/o its foundations, unlike a building. Anyway to tear something isn't to destroy 100% of it, so it's just Reality Warping, and you can't really attribute this to them rather than their weapons.

• Extant defeats Kent Nelson Doctor Fate (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #3, September 1994)

Don't you see issues with the scaling if he can just vaporize Fate?

• Black Adam tanks lightning from and staggers Hector Hall Doctor Fate (JSA Vol. 1 #6, January 2000)

Doesn't Fate hold back to be on the level of other heroes?

• Orion has control over the Fundamental Forces of the Universe (JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)

He has, his Astro-Force does that. And his regular stats don't scale to his control over it. Also this has no Tier, control that is Reality Warping of unknown range.

• Darkseid tanks a bomb that rips apart existence. (Action Comics Vol. 1 Annual #13, February 2011)

This is nothing, "rip apart" is not the same as destroy 100% of something, just tear at least a part of it. Think of anything and then think on what it would take to have it ripped apart. It would take so little, a small scratch would have it be ripped apart. This is also a gun fired at him, if it were to destroy the universe it would have destroyed the universe because nothing holds the blast.

I will go over the "Debunks to the debunks" part "soon". I always did want to argue against one of those modern "Defend something wrong by making a debunk about its debunk" arguments.

 

[Eficiente]

"Debunks to the debunks"

First of all the way this was positioned is very unprofessional. If you're gonna talk about feats, the arguments against them, and the arguments against those, then put each of the corresponding ones together; put feat A, then debunk of feat A & debunk of the debunk of feat A, then feat B, then debunk of feat B & debunk of the debunk of feat B, and so on. Don't half talk about a topic, move on to other topics, and then retake that topic, you don't want people to remember everything about it from before other things you talked about or go back to rewatch things.

Spoiler: The Golden Age Supes vs Post-Crisis Supes clash

The first thing that a lot of people will bring up is the idea of the Multiverse being weakened, however, this has many, many counters. First, let's go through the reasons people think this. In this statement from Infinite Crisis #3, it's stated the Multiverse was unstable.

First off, the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2. But even if it was literal, the source of the statement is from Alexander Luthor (Infinite Crisis #2), who had pretty much told them everything they believed, and he was the main villain of the story who was lying to everyone, so as a source it's hard to take it seriously.

In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.

It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.

Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.

First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.

A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.

Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.

The next argument is that the feat is metaphorical and didn't actually happen. Let's take a look at the reasoning:



While both Supermen are angry, there's no reason to say they're downright delusional to think some space-time shattering is happening when there isn't, especially considering how they continuously experience it.

Next we have these reasonings:



This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.



This is absolutely an argument from ignorance, someone not saying something doesn't mean it's not happening. On top of this, we see a ton of reality shenanigans in these scans, so you could argue they were being affected too if you want to take this literally.



This is also an argument from ignorance. The first point also stands here, that at the point in the fight they got too, they didn't destroy the Universe or anything, just that they were affecting the Universe with their AP.



Next there's this. The first one is that I don't get how you can change someone's subjective reality by punching them? This isn't stated or implied by anything at all, and in fact there's evidence that it beyond their own memories. We see plenty of events Superman wasn't there for, but rather characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, etc.

Lastly, the back of the comic says they were bending reality, so this seemingly confirms the events being literal.

the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2

This is a take on the matter, dismissing the rest. The Multiverse being unstable can still mean that it's breaking, that it's weaker or rules that regularly apply to it don't. Could it refer to the theme of morality? Yes, but you can in turn ignore how the story implies that to have a real effect on the universe. Old Supes thinks our Supes somehow killed his Lois by the way he acted, when she just died in front of her, the Supermen blame each other on the state of things for the way they acted, and the whole clash is said to this, Supes bending reality to what he thinks is right, their truth and justice being what needs to win the battle. There is no reason to dismiss how the multiverse was easier to screw up in this state for your take, you just do.

In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.

But it says more you're ignoring, it says that "the universe is splitting apart", that planets got moved across sectors, others got destroyed, and that it was the cosmic balance, the fabric of existance that got shifted, that Oa isn't even the center of the universe anymore, and that someone or something (Alex) has changed the nature of the cosmos, it's asked to what end, and they don't know. I know why, because he wants to mess things up and needs Superman for it as he's super important due to purposely unknown, yet well-established conseptual reasons. The universe and the way things work in it are super messed up, the way, exact rules behind this are unknwon because comics, it is impossible to assume that affecting this universe would be the same as affecting it if it were a regular state.

How was all of that info in that 1 page missed? Did the person making the blog just quoted someone rejecting the feat while linking that & saying that the scan is about center of the universe shifted and took their word for it w/o reading the scan themselves? It's super disingenuous, it reads as this person just wanting the feat to be correct in an undesirable way. How did people evaluate this part of the blog to be correct w/o reading the scan it's referring to? You don't do that, it comes off as people having just agreed with this because it looks presentable at glance & it agrees with how you want things to be. This literally says "this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged" after linking a scan that has "the universe is splitting apart" in it.

It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.

This justifies some of the changes in the scan before, the physical ones, not the rest. And the physical changes are even done to allow esoteric changes to happen with Alex's machine, so it doesn't really matter. The multiverse being unstable has nothing to do with this 1 universe having this physical changes.

Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.

First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.

The tear is damage you can see, you don't know the damage that is esoteric, like why is the multiverse unstable, why has the cosmic balance & the fabric of existance shifted, why has it changed the nature of the cosmos, what mechanics caused that tear. It's working on too many unknowns.

Idk what thread accepted the size of the universe being infnite, I asked for a link in that blog.

A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.

You have no reason to link an image of the Tiering when saying that because it doesn't say anything about weakened space-time. You don't know the degree in which in was weakened and how the made up comic rules changed, it stands to reason that it did so in a way that a clash of ideologies is messing up the universe, so not AP. We also know that both universes will become weaker and weaker and be destroyed in their own just by both Earths being near, which happened before the battle in issue 4.

Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.

Selective text compression. Alex put the Earths neat each other in issue 4, before the battle, Supes says that one of those Earths has been splintered back into the multiverse, that they will become weaker and weaker as they're divided. "Divided" refers to the state they're in that Alex put them since issue 4, they were going weaker and weaker since before the battle, in the battle & after the battle, with them being able to be destroyed because of it. The only reason Supes says this now and not because is because he came to his senses from the misunderstanding that was the battle. You just saw him say this after the battle and assumed it had to refer to something happening only after the battle regardless of what he's clearly saying, it's terrible.

You're right that it's not metaphorical, their in-universe poetic things are legit, their clash of ideas is in fact changing things up by their own actions, and that's all happening due to how Alex messed up reality. You remove what Alex did, and the Supes can't duplicate the feat.

You also linked this scan and missed how it isn't just saying that Supes' bending reality, but that he's bending reality to what he thinks is right, the Supermen's truth and justice being what needs to win the battle.

Also, rhetorical question, why does nobody see this feat from a P&A perspective? Why is nobody aiming to give both Supes this?;

"[[Reality Warping]] (When fighting for his ideals of how the world should and shouldn't be handled, he can damage the boundaries of the universe and threaten to destroy it)

Range: Universal via Reality Warping"

So, to sum things up; the universe and multiverse are very damaged to an unknown degree, the rules of the universe were changed in an unknown way, this happened because someone wanted to change the multiverse in a way that Superman is the key to it in an unknown way, the changes to reality the Supermen are doing happen due to their ideals, and their universes are a state that they will be destroyed on their own if left alone. To say that this is all ridiculous would be an understatement.

 

[Eficiente]

Spoiler: The Zero Hour Big Bang

The big point of contention is how much Superman actually contributes. However, as mentioned before, the DC Universe is far larger than ours, and likely Infinite. On top of that, as stated in Zero Hour #0, the Big Bang created time and space as well, so this is a 4D feat. If Superman was brought to contribute, he must at least be 1% responsible, making this a Universal+ feat.

Even if Supes didn't scale to it, Kyle Rayner (who he scales above, as he took out many Imperiex Probes [Adventures of Superman #594] that could take out Kyle [JLA: Our Worlds at War]) survives it, as he was blasted by it and was still conscious.

Superman also scales above some of the characters who contributed. Superman scales above Guy Garnder (as he could take on DoS Doomsday, who easily took out Guy), who overpowered the Ray in Justice League America #41. Donna Troy is a character generally sub Wonder Woman level, and Superman scales above her, as backed up by numerous sources. Him scaling to Captain Atom is debatable, but if you think Supes only scales to Atom when Atom is holding back and that Atom holds back even in dire situations, this means that this isn't the Full Power Atom who has the Universal creation feats, and it can't be applied to the version contributing to the Big Bang.

The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.

Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.

1º paragraph, I went over this in my other comment. See this is why I called the positioning unprofessional, this should have been right below that proposed feat and both things at once would have been tackled

2º paragraph, I went over this as it was its own proposed feat. Did people just copy-paste that feat from this super unreliable blog?

3º paragraph, covered when I covered the feat.

4º paragraph, pretty disingenuous, it's not "explained in detail" it's a quick recap of events as the story focuses elsewhere, it has less value than the actual things that happened and it even misses the Spectre's part in it. The fact that their energy was altered is also telling, we don't know how it was altered and it could easily be in a way that the energy before being altered doesn't scale to how it was altered.

5º paragraph. It comes out of nowhere to claim that Spectre's goal was to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, his goal was to fill the guy with more energy and recreate the universe. You already believe that his contribution is pretty small, you read that and concluded that it must mean that his contribution is pretty small because he made it so Damage can't hold it anymore, and that this was his only goal, but that's not something that makes any level of sense unless you already knew that the energies between how Damage was before and a Damage that can't hold it anymore was already a pretty small gap, which is not info in the page but stuff believed by the one who wrote the blog. That is literally a delusional conclusion.

Spoiler: Nebula Man

The first thing I want to point out is that Superman, absolutely, 100% scales to Nebula Man. We see their fight in JLA: Classified #3, and Superman staggers him twice, also tanking his beam without any damage. The only reason anyone doesn't think this is valid is because Nebula Man says this fight was enough for now and he was just testing Superman, but this is clearly just him making excuses, especially when you look at what was said prior.

As stated in JLA: Classified #2, his goal was straight up to kill Superman, and he gasses himself up right before he fights Superman in #3, asking who will fall to him first. His intention was clearly to fight and kill Superman, and he left when he realized his attacks had no effect. Superman blatantly scales above him and Nebula Man's statement is just his ego. Also, as shown in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #3, his head beam is seemingly a move he uses to kill, so this further supports him actually trying vs Supes.

As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.

Lastly, this scan doesn't contradict what's stated above and could even help it, as despite being physically small and compressed, he still could've been a Universe if not for his flaw. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.

I went over this as it was proposed as a feat.

Wait did a regular gun just harm Nebula Man? Reading the comic and looking this up it was a steam gun from Frankenstein.

Spoiler: Red King

Next is the Red King, which is fairly simple. Superman scales to a character that can destroy entire universes.

The Materioptikon is not part of Red King’s abilities, but as shown, that’s virtually irrelevant due to his feats. As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used. His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.

Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures. This can also explain why the League is so amazed by him, as he's ready for anything to go up against and basically can't be taken off-guard. There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny, who’s implied to be superior to the Red King.

While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.


The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.

As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used

You can't know this and think it matters because it's still the Materioptikon doing this in a way the Red King doesn't scale to.

His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.
Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures

This is meaningless. Yes Red King's regular stats are on the JL's level, the Materioptikon is in a whole other level. Being merged doesn't make him more powerful btw. He had thousands of plans but he did not plan over millions of lifetimes to beat them, he only had 3 timelines where he fought them, the rest of the thousands of lives he lived were for common wealth and pleasure until he decided to become a villian but was left only with few versions of himself. This is super clearly shown if you read the comic, and this guy had to do so to say this things.

While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.

Was this a WIP thing that was added here anyway?

The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes.

This quotes nothing but I went over this better in my take of this.

Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.

This is another "I believe this therefore this fact supports what I believe". The point is that the gem does the job, that can come in the form of a gem beam, him punching anything with the gem in his body, or gently tapping anything with the gem in his body, none of that would contradict the fact that the gem does it (Iirc it's always via a beam coming from the gem as he holds it).

 

[Antvasima]

Eficiente's arguments about the feats still make sense to me.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Another potential feat - Raven claims her powers are enough to destroy a universe

New Teen Titans (1988) issue #66