DC Comics - Green Lantern Universal Feats Discussion (Continuation)

[Vasco]

Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)

• This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
• Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
• Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)

Pocket Reality Manipulation

Pocket Reality Manipulation is a power which revolves around manipulating and creating pocket realities. Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This isn't AP or even Environmental Destruction.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Pocket Reality Manipulation

Pocket Reality Manipulation is a power which revolves around manipulating and creating pocket realities. Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This isn't AP or even Environmental Destruction.

Can you at least give several more reasons as to why it's just pocket reality manipulation

 

[Firestorm808]

Ion could remake the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
Ion has Infinite Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)

Isn't Ion (Kyle Rayner) self-explanatory since he has the entity inside him?

 

[Vasco]

Can you at least give several more reasons as to why it's just pocket reality manipulation

•Cause inside the ring is an infinite universe
•Stated to be inside all lantern ring
•It can't be used for AP for obvious reasons
•Such ability can't be used to scale to physicals like striking strength and durability

Pocket Reality Manipulation is a power which revolves around manipulating and creating pocket realities. Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside.

It's just a infinite pocket dimension/universe in the rings so has nothing to do with AP and the rest.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Glad we could all get on board with the Krona stuff. I don't mind adding the Atrocitus scaling to both that and the BL Crispus justification either.

I disagree with the Universe inside the ring refutations though.
It being in every GL's ring is a bit of a mistake on my part. From Kilowog's description, he's saying "everyone who has a GL ring has a Universe inside their ring", and we know Hal had to create his Universe, meaning rings don't automatically have these inside of them. While you can just interpret Hal creating it as PRM rather than his usual construct creation, we still know this Universe is powered by his battery's charge, something that Hal can drain with his attacks, so you this means Hal's attacks drain his power battery more than sustaining a whole Universe.

Ion is already Tier 2, but considering the scaling characters have to Ion, as well as the lack of info on the Ion page/keys, I thought it was worth mentioning. Also, on this topic, I want to mention the energy of Ion is the power of the GLC Power Battery (GL 150), and being Ion basically makes you a living central battery (Tales of the Sinestro Corps), so any scales the characters have to the GLC Battery is essentially a scale to Ion.

Edit: Oh and one other thing, just gonna note that the Guardians and Controllers being Big Bang level was accepted, the question is if that's H3A or L2C.

 

[Firestorm808]

I disagree with the Universe inside the ring refutations though.
It being in every GL's ring is a bit of a mistake on my part. From Kilowog's description, he's saying "everyone who has a GL ring has a Universe inside their ring", and we know Hal had to create his Universe, meaning rings don't automatically have these inside of them. While you can just interpret Hal creating it as PRM rather than his usual construct creation, we still know this Universe is powered by his battery's charge, something that Hal can drain with his attacks, so you this means Hal's attacks drain his power battery more than sustaining a whole Universe.

Can you elaborate as to why the micro verse should be treated like the standard universe?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Can you elaborate as to why the micro verse should be treated like the standard universe?

I can get to that in a bit. I have to catch up to the Superman thread and then I have to do a few things, so I'll explain my PoV later.

 

[Vasco]

I disagree with the Universe inside the ring refutations though.
It being in every GL's ring is a bit of a mistake on my part. From Kilowog's description, he's saying "everyone who has a GL ring has a Universe inside their ring", and we know Hal had to create his Universe, meaning rings don't automatically have these inside of them. While you can just interpret Hal creating it as PRM rather than his usual construct creation, we still know this Universe is powered by his battery's charge, something that Hal can drain with his attacks, so you this means Hal's attacks drain his power battery more than sustaining a whole Universe.

●Kilowog statement is Pocket Reality Manipulation not AP.
●Hal Jordan created his universe inside the ring that's very shaky to assume he can create an actual universe outside it.
●Then it should be PRM and not AP nothing in the attack potency page make such ability that of AP of he had indeed created a universe outside the ring I would have agreed but I can't agree to this.
●I don't understand the last bolded part.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Can you elaborate as to why the micro verse should be treated like the standard universe?

The argument for the size of the Universe is fairly well detailed in the post. It's called an entire Universe, and, more importantly, an infinite sea, while is corroborated by Kyle's battery having a world with no end. Hal's own size inside the ring doesn't really matter, since, as we saw in Willworld, this wasn't a stable thing, where he could go from taking up much of the Universe to being comparable in size to the people there, and his own personal size wouldn't change the size of the Universe itself. The "reverse miniaturization" is a bit odd as well, since I think it's just somewhat random Lanterns saying that, which wouldn't be the best sources, since Hal had to create and learn how to control this world to really understand it at all. I don't think it's something to be read deeper into than "let's get Hal back into the normal Universe".

●Kilowog statement is Pocket Reality Manipulation not AP.

I'm not bringing up his statement as anything else but correcting a mistake I made when putting it in the sandbox

●Hal Jordan created his universe inside the ring that's very shaky to assume he can create an actual universe outside it.
●Then it should be PRM and not AP nothing in the attack potency page make such ability that of AP of he had indeed created a universe outside the ring I would have agreed but I can't agree to this.

I don't think that's set it stone, nothing specifically says it's PRM either, and if anything we know Lanterns' main ability is creating constructs. But, I don't even think this matters due to this next point.

●I don't understand the last bolded part.

Essentially, Hal's ring can sustain this entire Infinite Universe without losing much charge, we see it takes like portions of a percent at a time when Hal is weakened. Hal can make constructs and power beams that take up way more than that, and therefore would have to be more than this energy.

 

[Vasco]

I'm not bringing up his statement as anything else but correcting a mistake I made when putting it in the sandbox

Fine then.

I don't think that's set it stone, nothing specifically says it's PRM either, and if anything we know Lanterns' main ability is creating constructs. But, I don't even think this matters due to this next point.

Our PRM page makes it so.
We know their main ability is to create construct but Hal Jordan created a universe inside his ring what prove is there he can create an Actual universe outside the ring?
Creating a universe inside his ring or having a Universe inside it isn't AP.

Essentially, Hal's ring can sustain this entire Infinite Universe without losing much charge, we see it takes like portions of a percent at a time when Hal is weakened. Hal can make constructs and power beams that take up way more than that, and therefore would have to be more than this energy.

I don't know what this proved but lantern rings being low on power has nothing to do with the power output they can bring out all depends on willpower.

Let me ask you how is creating a universe in your ring AP?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't know what this proved but lantern rings being low on power has nothing to do with the power output they can bring out all depends on willpower.

What are you trying to say exactly?

Let me ask you how is creating a universe in your ring AP?

We scale creation feats to AP a lot of the time.

 

[Vasco]

What are you trying to say exactly?

Battery percentage of power ring has nothing to do with the power they can output.

We scale creation feats to AP a lot of the time.

I know but this one dosen't make sense since it's a creation inside a lantern ring which all are stated to have endless universe in them.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Battery percentage of power ring has nothing to do with the power they can output.

Dude. Their power depends on how much willpower they have. The less they have, the weaker they are. That's just headcanon you're using.

I know but this one dosen't make sense since it's a creation inside a lantern ring which all are stated to have endless universe in them.

And why does creation in a lantern ring not qualify?

 

[Vasco]

Dude. Their power depends on how much willpower they have. The less they have, the weaker they are. That's just headcanon you're using.

My point exactly not on battery percentage of the ring.

And why does creation in a lantern ring not qualify?

Cause it's this and dosen't make sense to be AP.

Pocket Reality Manipulation is a power which revolves around manipulating and creating pocket realities. Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside.

● Hal created a universe inside his ring.
● The universe in his ring is spatially seperate from the normal universe.
● Third is main point of it so i Disagree.

Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

My point exactly not on battery percentage of the ring.

The battery also fuels their will. We've seen multiple Lanterns getting weaker because they're running out of charge. This is just ignoring canon.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The battery also fuels their will. We've seen multiple Lanterns getting weaker because they're running out of charge. This is just ignoring canon.

Feed the instances to thee

 

[Vasco]

The battery also fuels their will. We've seen multiple Lanterns getting weaker because they're running out of charge. This is just ignoring canon.

●Hal jordan vs sinestro: i've forgotten the book but you might remember he fought sinestro without a ring and simply willpower.
●Hal jordan vs Króna: his ring battery was very low yet overpowered Króna
●Also there's a blatant statement about lantern rings battery having no effect on Willpower of the user power output.( also forgot the book and where I debated this to bring you the scan)

Everything is based on Willpower when using a lantern ring except the ring's power shut down when not charged so using ring percentage as a point isn't convincing.

Anyways I've kinda debunked it on it being Low 2-C AP when indeed it's Pocket Reality Manipulation.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Power Rings getting weaker when low on power is shown early on in Hal’s run when Sinestro created a plan to weaken Hal’s ring by draining power from it (Green Lantern Vol 2 #9).

Hal also stated he didn’t have enough power to fight or even do basic stuff like fly when his ring was low on power during the Sinestro Corps War (Green Lantern Vol 4 #23).

 

[Vasco]

Hal also stated he didn’t have enough power to fight or even do basic stuff like fly when his ring was low on power during the Sinestro Corps War (Green Lantern Vol 4 #23).

His ring is almost dead and dosen't even have enough power to fly dosen't disprove my point, Even if he had enough willpower his ring would still power down very soon so it wouldn't be enough to make him fly.

Power Rings getting weaker when low on power is shown early on in Hal’s run when Sinestro created a plan to weaken Hal’s ring by draining power from it (Green Lantern Vol 2 #9).

My statement are from late PC and rebirth just forgot the exact books I saw this so I can concede for now, still dosen't change the fact it's Pocket Reality Manipulation.

 

[Firestorm808]

The argument for the size of the Universe is fairly well detailed in the post. It's called an entire Universe, and, more importantly, an infinite sea, while is corroborated by Kyle's battery having a world with no end. Hal's own size inside the ring doesn't really matter, since, as we saw in Willworld, this wasn't a stable thing, where he could go from taking up much of the Universe to being comparable in size to the people there, and his own personal size wouldn't change the size of the Universe itself. The "reverse miniaturization" is a bit odd as well, since I think it's just somewhat random Lanterns saying that, which wouldn't be the best sources, since Hal had to create and learn how to control this world to really understand it at all. I don't think it's something to be read deeper into than "let's get Hal back into the normal Universe".

From the perspective of a person within a micro-verse, yes, it would seem infinite as well. It would just be a smaller subset of infinity compared to the standard universe.

It's safe to say there is a qualitative difference between a parallel universe and a universe within a ring which would be a micro-verse.

I don't see any reason to take the Lantern Tech's words as random. The storyline was meant to go into detail on the world within the ring, and they described the method to leave to go back to the standard universe.

 

[Firestorm808]

Current Review

Post Crisis​

• The GLC Central Battery can become as large as and destroy the entire Universe(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: The yellow impurity was seizing control of the battery, so now it’s reclaiming all the green energy, pulling it back into itself in order to keep that impurity contained. Soon, the Central Power Battery will siphon all of the green energy back into itself. It will go on to overload, causing a massive power buildup. This will, in turn, trigger an explosion, transforming OA itself into an immense black hole, large enough to draw the entire universe into it.
  • Agree - With this context, it means that the total Green Energy within its siphoning range is enough to destroy the universe, High 3-A
• Hal Jordan has survived attacks from Sinestro possessing the Central Battery(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: 11 Guardians give Hal power for his task. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. A Snake construct drains a significant amount of Hal's energy. Sinestro's mind takes over the core of the CPB. Hal is restrained by Sinestro. Sinestro absorbs Hal's remaining power before he starts slowly killing him. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. Ganthet bestows a portion of his power to Hal. The revitalized Hal is still unable to fight Sinestro directly, but still taking energy blasts. So, Hal removes the Yellow impurity from the core to weaken and remove Sinestro.
  • Unsure - I'm unsure if we can scale Hal from this because of a lot of Guardian meddling. To my knowledge, it didn't collect all the energy yet, so I'm unsure how to rate this quantity. Scaling the Guardians seems fine.
• Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)
  • Reserved as secondary support
• Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang(Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
  • Context: Krona created a time viewer to see the beginning of the universe. A searing bolt of cosmic force shattered Krona's great machine and damaged his lab. Ganthet also constructs a time viewer to see the beginning as well. Gantehet experienced the same explosive result.
  • Disagree - Neither Krona nor Ganthet actually experienced the force of the big bang, just their time viewer shattering. Otherwise, the entire planet would have blown up from the big bang.
• Kyle Rayner survives being blown away by the Zero Hour Big Bang(Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
  • Context: Green Lantern Vol 3 #0, October 1994 - Following Zero Hour, Parallax Hal and Kyle are in a tunnel. Parallax Hal explains: They were outside of time when the universe was being recreated. Waverider created a rift to re-enter reality at the precise moment or be lost forever. Most of Hal's power was gone. He linked with Waverider's rift and formed a vortex to bring himself back to Oa. Kyle was drawn along.
  • Disagree - It got retconned as to how they survived. They didn't actually take the force of the blast and be lost forever.
• Guardians are being compared in power to individual central power batteries(Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
  • Central Power Battery
• Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
  • Refer to the microverse discussion.
• Kyle says Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power(Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
  • Agree
• Kyle Rayner and Anarky reverse the warping of the universe. (Anarky Vol. 2 #3, July 1999)
  • Context
    • "There is a breakdown in the Laws of Reality-- an aberration. The--Probably the entire universe--is in danger.!"
    • "The aberration isn't a living being-- It's a rearrangement of the laws of physics. It's in human form because that's the only way we can see it--"
    • "It's changing all the universal constants-- the speed of light, the planck length, the laws of thermodynamics-- on a small scale. But the changes will accelerate as it grows stronger.--"
    • "It has no purpose except to survive-- and it can only do that by changing our reality!"
    • The aberration has a sphere of influence that is getting bigger.
    • The aberration resists the duo's attempt to compact/shrink it.
    • Within the sphere, space and time are warped.
    • Anarky and Kyle are sent to a future where they don't stop the aberration and the aberration has fully grown.
    • "A universe where everything we know is changed. Not only into what we don't know, but into what we cannot know. Colors shift and slide like water. Darkness and light are the same thing. The laws of cause and effect don't hold. and reason no longer exists. Everything roils together in a maelstrom of eternal madness"
    • “Something you mentioned earlier got me thinking. The Planck Length. It’s the incredibly short distance that separates the sub molecular world from the world of physical reality.”
    • "If you were able to use your willpower to amplify that distance, you would be able to act directly on reality itself!"
    • After amplifying the planck length within their protective bubble, they return to the present.
    • "Maybe we can wish the aberration out of existence!"
    • With all their energy, Anarky and Kyle beat the aberration, restoring the laws of the universe within the sphere.
  • Unsure - I would consider the Planck stuff more limited Law Manipulation or Reality Warping than something AP. I can see the future Abberation being Tier 2, but what should we rate the small aberration within the initial sphere?
• Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Ring Worlds are said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Refer to the microverse discussion.
• Ion could remake the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • Self-Explanatory for Kyle and the Green Entity
• Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • Self-Explanatory for Kyle and the Green Entity
• Ion has Infinite Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)
  • Reserved as secondary support toward Kyle and the Entity
• Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)
  • Reserved as secondary support
• Arc
  • The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010),
  • Kyle fought an Obsidian/Jade mergewhile gradually losing power (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010),
    • both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010),
    • The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)
  • Unsure - Did the storyline specify how it would obliterate reality? A blast? A gradual thing? Etc?
• The Human Lanterns were able to fight Guardians with the powers of the Emotional Entities(Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), with Entity-level scaling overall being consistent
  • Unsure - They say that the Possessed Guardians are impervious to their ring. If we saw them facing a different possessed being and did sizeable damage like Atrocitus, I would be more willing to agree.

Rebirth​

• Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps September, 2016),
  • Unsure - While I agree that Hal sent tremors through the Spectrum, nothing suggests that it went past the current universe. With Hal using his hammer, isn't it like the waves from a pebble in a pond analogy? How should something like this be rated?
  • The spectrum has been called an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms(The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained, November, 2021)
    • "Continuities populated by numberless races and species are connected in infinite webs of interlinked planes, realms, domains, and energy fields such as the Speed Force or the Emotional Spectrum."
    • Disagree - The Spectrum itself isn't an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms. The above can be shortened to Continuities populated by numberless races and species are connected in infinite webs of interlinked energy fields such as the Speed Force or the Emotional Spectrum
• Hal also believes he could defeat Dawnbreaker (Dark Multiverse Lantern Batman) who defeated the Guardians(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #32, January 2018)
  • Agree - Part of his Rebirth Pure Will Ring addition
• Human Lanterns fought and overpowered the Controllers before being mind-controlled(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #36, March 2018).
  • Agree - I'm assuming that Controllers are still comparable to the standard Guardian by this time.
• Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it(The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #6, June 2019)
  • Context: The U-Bomb's detonation would cause all matter in the universe to bind to a compressed quark core.
  • "We're divering all the power you need from the central battery reserves. Disarm the U-Bomb!"
  • "All we know is this -- prior to his disappearance, an energy output was recorded equivalent to ten-to-the-44th-power joules."
  • The Green Lantern Vol 1 #7 July 2019
    • Using the Central Power Battery, Hal stops the detonation, is shot into deep space, and is miniaturized into his ring.
    • "There was a U-Bomb. I had to disarm it. Guardians diverted the entire output of the Central Battery through my power ring--shot us into deep space-- enough energy to kill me, but the ring-- the ting would to anything to keep me alive--
  • Unsure - Do we take the context as the Central Power Battery is his limit of his power channeling in this case? Did Hal not have the energy at the time to perform the task on his own?
• Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth(The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)
  • Refer to the microverse discussion.

 

[Firestorm808]

• The first one to address is that Alan Scott's death would destroy the Solar System, as stated in JSA #19. However, despite this essentially being all of his energy leaking out, it's not concentrated at all, which is very important for Green Lanterns. One of the first and most important things rookie Lanterns are taught is the importance of concentration and focus, as we can see in Green Lantern Corps #27. This can be shown further with this scene from Justice League #1, where even Batman can snatch an unfocused Hal's ring. Concentration is also necessary for full strength, as shown in this scene from Justice League of America #22, where Alan and Hal's full might doesn't work until they concentrate it.
  • Disagree - I don't think we have justification for AP vs DC in this scenario. It's a raw explosion of energy of all the energy inside of him, not a focused attack.
• John Stewart also has his feat of creating a Solar System in Green Lantern #26, which has been used as a High 4-C supporting feat. This feat is a limit, as it was only temporary and required the full limits of the ring, but not a limit of Attack Potency, but rather to how complex his constructs can be, and how long he can hold them. This is demonstrably not correlated to power, as even Hal Jordan could only temporarily recreate a city before running out of charge, as seen in Green Lantern #48.
  • Disagree - John's ring said nothing about the complexity of structures. "Warning: Willpower exceeding Power Ring Capabilities." From that warning, his Ring can't go past the current energy output of willpower to maintain the structure.
• Next is the only Solar System level feat from Rebirth, in Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #26, where Orion's battle with an Nth Metal Golem destroys a Star System. While this already isn't implied to be a limit in any way, it's especially apparent that it's not when the next issue, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #27, clarifies it was just the shockwaves of their attacks destroyed the System, as we note on his page.
  • It wasn't the shockwaves of exchanged attacks. From the scans, it was the Golem that released an energy burst shockwave that destroyed the star system and injured Orion.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Took a bit to get this response out, so thanks for the patience.

Our PRM page makes it so.
We know their main ability is to create construct but Hal Jordan created a universe inside his ring what prove is there he can create an Actual universe outside the ring?
Creating a universe inside his ring or having a Universe inside it isn't AP.

Just checked the PRM page and I don't see what would automatically make it that. So until there's evidence as to why it's just hax rather than what we know the Lanterns are known for.

I don't know what this proved but lantern rings being low on power has nothing to do with the power output they can bring out all depends on willpower.

First off, the power output is dependent on their charge, not only do Maverick's examples show this, but it's even noted on our own GL ring page.
That was never even the point though. The point is the existence of the Universe is dependent on the ring's charge (and Hal himself), and to sustain an infinite Universe, it'd require Infinite energy. Hal's attacks can take more energy than sustaining the ring, so they'd upscale from said energy.

From the perspective of a person within a micro-verse, yes, it would seem infinite as well. It would just be a smaller subset of infinity compared to the standard universe.

It's safe to say there is a qualitative difference between a parallel universe and a universe within a ring which would be a micro-verse.

I don't see any reason to take the Lantern Tech's words as random. The storyline was meant to go into detail on the world within the ring, and they described the method to leave to go back to the standard universe.

What do you mean by a smaller subset of infinity? If you mean like a lower dimensional structure, that seems like a very weird assumption without much backing.
If anything the narrative has been showing how truly expansive these Universes are, and this also isn't a defeater to my points. Sure, they know Lantern tech, but Hal literally had to become the master of his own Universe to understand it, and his size there isn't even a consistent thing to go off of.
Also, Hal himself questions the size of the Universes, while also wondering if maybe he was just big, and then later goes on to treat them as a full Infinite-sized area, so it seems like his progression of opinion suggests it's not a some lower dimensional Universe.

• Hal Jordan has survived attacks from Sinestro possessing the Central Battery(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: 11 Guardians give Hal power for his task. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. A Snake construct drains a significant amount of Hal's energy. Sinestro's mind takes over the core of the CPB. Hal is restrained by Sinestro. Sinestro absorbs Hal's remaining power before he starts slowly killing him. Ganthet is revitalized by entering the lantern. Ganthet bestows a portion of his power to Hal. The revitalized Hal is still unable to fight Sinestro directly, but still taking energy blasts. So, Hal removes the Yellow impurity from the core to weaken and remove Sinestro.
  • Unsure - I'm unsure if we can scale Hal from this because of a lot of Guardian meddling. To my knowledge, it didn't collect all the energy yet, so I'm unsure how to rate this quantity. Scaling the Guardians seems fine.

My bad on missing Hal being amped, just refer to the other Entity scales and Superman taking attacks from Molly with the power of the GLC Central Battery instead. There's also stuff for characters scaling to Cyborg Superman with the power of the ES, particularly the full extent of the Green.

Also, the power doesn't increase to become Universal, it's just that all the energy comes in to make a buildup, with a buildup meaning "assemble or accumulate something by putting parts or material together", not getting any greater.

• Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang(Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
  • Context: Krona created a time viewer to see the beginning of the universe. A searing bolt of cosmic force shattered Krona's great machine and damaged his lab. Ganthet also constructs a time viewer to see the beginning as well. Gantehet experienced the same explosive result.
  • Disagree - Neither Krona nor Ganthet actually experienced the force of the big bang, just their time viewer shattering. Otherwise, the entire planet would have blown up from the big bang.

I'm not sure why his green bubble with be the time viewer? He doesn't even have the have a green bubble around him until the explosion, further implying that's his construct.

• Kyle Rayner survives being blown away by the Zero Hour Big Bang(Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
  • Context: Green Lantern Vol 3 #0, October 1994 - Following Zero Hour, Parallax Hal and Kyle are in a tunnel. Parallax Hal explains: They were outside of time when the universe was being recreated. Waverider created a rift to re-enter reality at the precise moment or be lost forever. Most of Hal's power was gone. He linked with Waverider's rift and formed a vortex to bring himself back to Oa. Kyle was drawn along.
  • Disagree - It got retconned as to how they survived. They didn't actually take the force of the blast and be lost forever.

There's no retcon. They were at ground zero, and while he did connect to Waverider's rift, and when he reenters the timestream, it's pages after he says they were blown away by the big bang. Essentially, the sequence of events is that Kyle and Hal get hit by it, and then they link to a rift that was created well after Waverider mentions them getting blasted.

• Guardians are being compared in power to individual central power batteries(Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
  • Central Power Battery

Oops, this was a typo on my part, I meant to say individual power batteries.
Never really been too jazzed with the Anarky thing so I'll just skip that, someone else can argue for that if they want.

• Arc
  • The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010),
  • Kyle fought an Obsidian/Jade mergewhile gradually losing power (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010),
    • both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010),
    • The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)
  • Unsure - Did the storyline specify how it would obliterate reality? A blast? A gradual thing? Etc?

Not sure, but via Occam's Razor, I don't see why we'd go beyond the most simple interpretation rather than overloading the statement with things not implied. As for the timeframe, it's treated as an urgent thing that would happen after he beats Kyle, going off of the "obliterate the good in GL's life, and all of reality".

• The Human Lanterns were able to fight Guardians with the powers of the Emotional Entities(Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), with Entity-level scaling overall being consistent
  • Unsure - They say that the Possessed Guardians are impervious to their ring. If we saw them facing a different possessed being and did sizeable damage like Atrocitus, I would be more willing to agree.

I believe the impervious statement is in reference to how Lanterns aren't supposed to be able to kill Guardians. We see in the scans they could take attacks from, restrain, and blast them, so I think it's fair to say they're in the same tier.

• Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum(Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps September, 2016),
  • Unsure - While I agree that Hal sent tremors through the Spectrum, nothing suggests that it went past the current universe. With Hal using his hammer, isn't it like the waves from a pebble in a pond analogy? How should something like this be rated?
  • The spectrum has been called an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms(The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained, November, 2021)
    • "Continuities populated by numberless races and species are connected in infinite webs of interlinked planes, realms, domains, and energy fields such as the Speed Force or the Emotional Spectrum."
    • Disagree - The Spectrum itself isn't an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms. The above can be shortened to Continuities populated by numberless races and species are connected in infinite webs of interlinked energy fields such as the Speed Force or the Emotional Spectrum

I'm not sure why Hal sending tremors is a "waves from a pebble in a pond" analogy, or what that even suggests.
The spectrum is blatantly called an infinite web of interlinked planes, the "such as" directly follows the infinite webs part. Those sorts of energy fields are also descriptions of the ES and SF, and if those aren't what they were supposed to be examples of, what was?
Also, looking back at it, if anything, since the ES is the power source for many tier 2 beings like entities, WLs, and so on, this could probably make sense as a tier 2 feat.

• Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it(The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #6, June 2019)
  • Context: The U-Bomb's detonation would cause all matter in the universe to bind to a compressed quark core.
  • "We're divering all the power you need from the central battery reserves. Disarm the U-Bomb!"
  • "All we know is this -- prior to his disappearance, an energy output was recorded equivalent to ten-to-the-44th-power joules."
  • The Green Lantern Vol 1 #7 July 2019
    • Using the Central Power Battery, Hal stops the detonation, is shot into deep space, and is miniaturized into his ring.
    • "There was a U-Bomb. I had to disarm it. Guardians diverted the entire output of the Central Battery through my power ring--shot us into deep space-- enough energy to kill me, but the ring-- the ting would to anything to keep me alive--
  • Unsure - Do we take the context as the Central Power Battery is his limit of his power channeling in this case? Did Hal not have the energy at the time to perform the task on his own?

That could be a possible way to look at it, but either way considering Hal has scaling to the CPB that you've agreed to, I don't think he can infinitely downscale from feats when amped by it.

• The first one to address is that Alan Scott's death would destroy the Solar System, as stated in JSA #19. However, despite this essentially being all of his energy leaking out, it's not concentrated at all, which is very important for Green Lanterns. One of the first and most important things rookie Lanterns are taught is the importance of concentration and focus, as we can see in Green Lantern Corps #27. This can be shown further with this scene from Justice League #1, where even Batman can snatch an unfocused Hal's ring. Concentration is also necessary for full strength, as shown in this scene from Justice League of America #22, where Alan and Hal's full might doesn't work until they concentrate it.
  • Disagree - I don't think we have justification for AP vs DC in this scenario. It's a raw explosion of energy of all the energy inside of him, not a focused attack.

The AP vs DC point isn't really relevant here, granted we know stuff like the size of constructs is dependent on concentration so maybe a point could be made. The importance is it not being a focused attack, something Lanterns need to access their full power.

• John Stewart also has his feat of creating a Solar System in Green Lantern #26, which has been used as a High 4-C supporting feat. This feat is a limit, as it was only temporary and required the full limits of the ring, but not a limit of Attack Potency, but rather to how complex his constructs can be, and how long he can hold them. This is demonstrably not correlated to power, as even Hal Jordan could only temporarily recreate a city before running out of charge, as seen in Green Lantern #48.
  • Disagree - John's ring said nothing about the complexity of structures. "Warning: Willpower exceeding Power Ring Capabilities." From that warning, his Ring can't go past the current energy output of willpower to maintain the structure.

I feel like you didn't look through this much.
While it never said it was for complexity, it also never says it's for the power. Willpower exceeding the Capabilities doesn't have to mean it's due to his energy output, it just means it's hard for him to hold. And the example of Hal Jordan only temporarily making the city shows that it's harder to maintain complex structures.

 

[Firestorm808]

What do you mean by a smaller subset of infinity? If you mean like a lower dimensional structure, that seems like a very weird assumption without much backing.
If anything the narrative has been showing how truly expansive these Universes are, and this also isn't a defeater to my points. Sure, they know Lantern tech, but Hal literally had to become the master of his own Universe to understand it, and his size there isn't even a consistent thing to go off of.
Also, Hal himself questions the size of the Universes, while also wondering if maybe he was just big, and then later goes on to treat them as a full Infinite-sized area, so it seems like his progression of opinion suggests it's not a some lower dimensional Universe.

In the Will World Comic, Hal was ordered to enter the Central Power Battery and merge with the non-local universe. Inside, all lanterns had their universe by fusing will and imagination and projected from the hologram of his mind. Hal would dream himself into the World of Will and descend into it to master it. Hal's Will World took its place beside the other Will Worlds created by the lanterns tested before him. They are parallel universes floating in the bubble of pure mind.

Will World in the CPB and his own ring are two different places, two different contexts.

It's plainly shown that Hal was shrunk to go to the world within his own ring.

 

[Firestorm808]

That could be a possible way to look at it, but either way considering Hal has scaling to the CPB that you've agreed to, I don't think he can infinitely downscale from feats when amped by it.

Which agreed statement are you referring to?

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not sure why Hal sending tremors is a "waves from a pebble in a pond" analogy, or what that even suggests.

Let's say that the Emotional Spectrum is across 10 universes. On one end, we know Hal causes a tremor that is felt by people within the Spectrum that covers his universe. What justification do we have that someone 10 Universes away felt it?

 

[Vasco]

Just checked the PRM page and I don't see what would automatically make it that. So until there's evidence as to why it's just hax rather than what we know the Lanterns are known for.

●Hal Jordan created his universe inside the ring that's very shaky to assume he can create an actual universe outside it.
●Then it should be PRM and not AP nothing in the attack potency page make such ability that of AP of he had indeed created a universe outside the ring I would have agreed but I can't agree to this.

My point exactly not on battery percentage of the ring.

Cause it's this and dosen't make sense to be AP.

● Hal created a universe inside his ring.
● The universe in his ring is spatially seperate from the normal universe.
● Third is main point of it so i Disagree.

Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)

All this point out to PRM nothing you said is AP even according to the AP page.

That was never even the point though. The point is the existence of the Universe is dependent on the ring's charge (and Hal himself), and to sustain an infinite Universe, it'd require Infinite energy.

I can agree to this but let's the staffs opinion on it.

 

[Firestorm808]

I feel like you didn't look through this much.
While it never said it was for complexity, it also never says it's for the power. Willpower exceeding the Capabilities doesn't have to mean it's due to his energy output, it just means it's hard for him to hold. And the example of Hal Jordan only temporarily making the city shows that it's harder to maintain complex structures.

According to Hal in Green Lantern Vol 3 #48, January 1994 his city construct ended because the "ring's charge is gone" because of the time limit.

What scan are you referencing regarding complexity?

 

[Firestorm808]

The AP vs DC point isn't really relevant here, granted we know stuff like the size of constructs is dependent on concentration so maybe a point could be made. The importance is it not being a focused attack, something Lanterns need to access their full power.

I don't follow.

If a Ring has 100 units of Energy, it self-destructing will release 100 units of energy.

Concentrated attacks from the ring would still be limited by the 100 units of energy.

What comic example are you drawing from?

If we know the energy capacity of Alan Scott, then we can plug that into the blast range and get energy concentration.

 

[Firestorm808]

Not sure, but via Occam's Razor, I don't see why we'd go beyond the most simple interpretation rather than overloading the statement with things not implied. As for the timeframe, it's treated as an urgent thing that would happen after he beats Kyle, going off of the "obliterate the good in GL's life, and all of reality".

So I read the "The Dark Things" Storyline, and here's the play-by-play.

• Alan, Jade, and Todd each have a fragment of the giant Starheart crystal.
• The crystal carries Jade to Earth and uses Alan as his prime host while controlling Todd and everyone else, magical or elemental.
• The Starheart Meteor contains all chaotic dark energy in the universe with equal green light.
• The Starheart Meteor has a desire to control the world and cause madness.
• The merging of Jade and Todd isn't equal to the power of the giant crystal, just the combination of their fragments.
• While under the influence of the Meteor, Light and Dark halves, he was a GL Kyle Rayner-level threat.
• A separated Jade absorbs all the dark energy of the Starheart meteor to remove the control over Alan.
• Alan, seemingly absorbing the rest of the meteor, now has control over the entire good green light from the Star Heart Crystal, more powerful than before.

We'll probably have a Pre/Post Startheart Meteor Key for Alan and Jade since it's a major boost to their power.

Nothing is directly tied to destroying reality, but there's still a scaling chain with GL Kyle to work off of.

Full scaling chains will be done later.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

In the Will World Comic, Hal was ordered to enter the Central Power Battery and merge with the non-local universe. Inside, all lanterns had their universe by fusing will and imagination and projected from the hologram of his mind. Hal would dream himself into the World of Will and descend into it to master it. Hal's Will World took its place beside the other Will Worlds created by the lanterns tested before him. They are parallel universes floating in the bubble of pure mind.

Will World in the CPB and his own ring are two different places, two different contexts.

It's plainly shown that Hal was shrunk to go to the world within his own ring.

I'm not gonna lie, this just does not address anything all said. All you established is that he went into the GLC power battery, dreamed up the world, and it was beside the other worlds. I agree with all of this, but I don't see what this attacks from my argument whatsoever, and what relevance it has to the size of the Universe. Though again, even if I agree that Hal shrunk down, the Universe's size doesn't have to correlate to Hal's size.

Which agreed statement are you referring to?

You agreed to Krona scaling earlier on the thread, no? Krona scaling was a scale to Ion, with Ion essentially being the same power as the GLC Battery. As I mentioned before, the energy of Ion is the power of the GLC Power Battery (GL 150), and being Ion basically makes you a living central battery (Tales of the Sinestro Corps).

Let's say that the Emotional Spectrum is across 10 universes. On one end, we know Hal causes a tremor that is felt by people within the Spectrum that covers his universe. What justification do we have that someone 10 Universes away felt it?

I never claimed he shook the Universes the ES stretches across. I'm scaling him off of shaking the ES itself, with the ES being an Infinite web, and therefore at least H3A. And as I've mentioned, it could potentially be significantly higher as it is the power source to multiple tier 2 characters.

I don't follow.

If a Ring has 100 units of Energy, it self-destructing will release 100 units of energy.

Concentrated attacks from the ring would still be limited by the 100 units of energy.

Maybe in your opinion, but you can't prove that. I don't know why raw energy that's not being concentrated would scale to concentrated energy. Concentration allows them to harness it much better, as has been pointed out since the OP.

What comic example are you drawing from?

It's in the OP:

Concentration is also necessary for full strength, as shown in this scene from Justice League of America #22, where Alan and Hal's full might doesn't work until they concentrate it.

If we know the energy capacity of Alan Scott, then we can plug that into the blast range and get energy concentration.

Huh? I seriously have no idea what this is supposed to mean. How would you find his energy concentration from his capacity and the blast range?

So I read the "The Dark Things" Storyline, and here's the play-by-play.

• Alan, Jade, and Todd each have a fragment of the giant Starheart crystal.
• The crystal carries Jade to Earth and uses Alan as his prime host while controlling Todd and everyone else, magical or elemental.
• The Starheart Meteor contains all chaotic dark energy in the universe with equal green light.
• The Starheart Meteor has a desire to control the world and cause madness.
• The merging of Jade and Todd isn't equal to the power of the giant crystal, just the combination of their fragments.
• While under the influence of the Meteor, Light and Dark halves, he was a GL Kyle Rayner-level threat.
• A separated Jade absorbs all the dark energy of the Starheart meteor to remove the control over Alan.
• Alan, seemingly absorbing the rest of the meteor, now has control over the entire good green light from the Star Heart Crystal, more powerful than before.

We'll probably have a Pre/Post Startheart Meteor Key for Alan and Jade since it's a major boost to their power.

Nothing is directly tied to destroying reality, but there's still a scaling chain with GL Kyle to work off of.

Full scaling chains will be done later.

Nice run down, but I'm not sure if there's a specific point being made here. If it's that because only the summary mentions the Universe being at stake, I don't think that's a very good argument, since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

As for Kyle surviving the Big Bang, Ganthet's construct surviving the Big Bang, and the other points you didn't address, do you plan to go over them at another time, or are you fine with my arguments? If it's the former, I'd appreciate if you could couple all your points in one response rather than spacing them out between many different comments.

Lastly, I want to bring up another 2-C, possibly 2-A scale:

• When Parallax Sinestro was amped to 1,000% (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #6, December 2016), base Hal managed to hold his own, and hurt him when he was back at his normal power (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #7, December 2016)

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not gonna lie, this just does not address anything all said. All you established is that he went into the GLC power battery, dreamed up the world, and it was beside the other worlds. I agree with all of this, but I don't see what this attacks from my argument whatsoever, and what relevance it has to the size of the Universe. Though again, even if I agree that Hal shrunk down, the Universe's size doesn't have to correlate to Hal's size.

It would be best to refer to other staff regarding our standards regarding the universe within the ring.

@Qawsedf234 @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @LordTracer @Crabwhale

You agreed to Krona scaling earlier on the thread, no? Krona scaling was a scale to Ion, with Ion essentially being the same power as the GLC Battery. As I mentioned before, the energy of Ion is the power of the GLC Power Battery (GL 150), and being Ion basically makes you a living central battery (Tales of the Sinestro Corps).

Sorry. You confused me since you went from one end of the chain to another. I would have understood if you just said Hal and Krona scaling.

I never claimed he shook the Universes the ES stretches across. I'm scaling him off of shaking the ES itself, with the ES being an Infinite web, and therefore at least H3A. And as I've mentioned, it could potentially be significantly higher as it is the power source to multiple tier 2 characters.

I never said that he shook the universe.

I'm asking if there is a difference between affecting the part of the whole ES that covers 1 universe VS the larger portion that covers 52 universes.

Does affecting the ES in any capacity qualify for Tier 2?

Maybe in your opinion, but you can't prove that. I don't know why raw energy that's not being concentrated would scale to concentrated energy. Concentration allows them to harness it much better, as has been pointed out since the OP.

You're suggesting that a person can release more energy than they have if they self-destructed? It would be best to refer to other staff regarding this.

@Qawsedf234 @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @LordTracer @Crabwhale

Do you have a more recent example instead of Justice League of America Vol 1 #22 from September 1963?

Nice run down, but I'm not sure if there's a specific point being made here. If it's that because only the summary mentions the Universe being at stake, I don't think that's a very good argument, since absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Per my post, I'm saying Full Meteor Alan scales to Kyle. Alan got downgraded to Half Meteor afterward.
Post-Meteor Jade should scale to her Half Meteor father.
Todd is still scaled to Pre-Meteor Jade AFAIK.

As for Kyle surviving the Big Bang, Ganthet's construct surviving the Big Bang,

Per my original post,

Krona created a time viewer to see the beginning of the universe. A searing bolt of cosmic force shattered Krona's great machine and damaged his lab.

Ganthet also built a time viewer to see the beginning as well. Ganthet experienced the same explosive result that being his machine exploding but shielded himself whereas Krona didn't

Neither Krona nor Ganthet actually experienced the force of the big bang, just the force of their time viewers shattering. If the force of the big bang actually went through the time viewer, the entire planet would have blown up from the force from the big bang, not just a damaged lab.

and the other points you didn't address, do you plan to go over them at another time, or are you fine with my arguments? If it's the former, I'd appreciate if you could couple all your points in one response rather than spacing them out between many different comments.

Sorry. I'm limited to what I'm currently available with away from home. I'll be able to do a deeper dive into those topics when available.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It would be best to refer to other staff regarding our standards regarding the universe within the ring.

A universal sized pocket dimension is still a universal feat. It just has to be a pocket dimension and not occupy the same space as the standard universe.

You're suggesting that a person can release more energy than they have if they self-destructed?

You can kill yourself with an attack more powerful than your regular AP. Suicide moves have been valid for other stuff, but they don't scale to their base stats.

 

[Firestorm808]

A universal sized pocket dimension is still a universal feat. It just has to be a pocket dimension and not occupy the same space as the standard universe.


You can kill yourself with an attack more powerful than your regular AP. Suicide moves have been valid for other stuff, but they don't scale to their base stats.

Does this include having to shrink to get in the universe of the ring?

Sorry, we discussed whether a concentrated attack could have more energy than their self-destruction.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Does this include having to shrink to get in the universe of the ring?

If they don't cross some dimensional barrier, then it occupies the same space as the normal universe. Which I don't think qualifies.

Sorry, we discussed whether a concentrated attack could have more energy than their self-destruction

I guess that's more personal interpretation, but I don't see why you focusing hard means you scale to something that kills you when doing it.

 

[Firestorm808]

If they don't cross some dimensional barrier, then it occupies the same space as the normal universe. Which I don't think qualifies.

To clarify, a universe infinitely smaller than the standard universe is qualitatively equal to the standard one?

 

[Qawsedf234]

To clarify, a universe infinitely smaller than the standard universe is

If you have to leave your universes box to go to another box, the second box can be treated as Tier 3 or 2. If you are within the same box and go into another box, the second box cannot be treated the same.

Unless by shrinking in size they cross some dimensional barrier, it wouldn't be a pocket dimension and therefore it wouldn't be a universal showing.

 

[Firestorm808]

If you have to leave your universes box to go to another box, the second box can be treated as Tier 3 or 2. If you are within the same box and go into another box, the second box cannot be treated the same.

Unless by shrinking in size they cross some dimensional barrier, it wouldn't be a pocket dimension and therefore it wouldn't be a universal showing.

Ah, thank you for the explanation.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I never said that he shook the universe.

I'm asking if there is a difference between affecting the part of the whole ES that covers 1 universe VS the larger portion that covers 52 universes.

Does affecting the ES in any capacity qualify for Tier 2?

Yeah I know you didn't say that, I was just trying to clarify my stance.
I'm not sure I follow this logic, I don't think the ES is split into the part that covers a single Universe or the local Multiverse. I think it works like the rest of the forces of the Multiverse where it's just one Spectrum for everything.
Depends on what you mean by "any capacity". Any capacity that affects the whole thing sure, but I wouldn't say affecting an infinitesimal fraction of it would be tier 2.

Do you have a more recent example instead of Justice League of America Vol 1 #22 from September 1963?

Not on hand, but it should still carry over like the rest of the GL lore. On top of that, I think the rest of the scans corroborate the point I'm trying to make, where Lanterns are far more effective when concentrated.

Krona created a time viewer to see the beginning of the universe. A searing bolt of cosmic force shattered Krona's great machine and damaged his lab.

Ganthet also built a time viewer to see the beginning as well. Ganthet experienced the same explosive result that being his machine exploding but shielded himself whereas Krona didn't

Neither Krona nor Ganthet actually experienced the force of the big bang, just the force of their time viewers shattering. If the force of the big bang actually went through the time viewer, the entire planet would have blown up from the force from the big bang, not just a damaged lab.

It's a bit hard to tell what specifically you're talking about without the use of scans. I do think there's a difference between Krona's experience where he was hit and Ganthet's experiences though, as Krona went to the end of time when his time viewer was destroyed rather than the beginning that time. The lab-damaging part I just don't see, and I'm not sure when Ganthet's time viewer was shattered either. To me, it just seems like the construct protected him.

As far as the Willworld stuff goes, I'm starting to get lost tbh, but I will note he initially went into a non-local Universe, implying it was a separate area.

 

[Vasco]

I never said that he shook the universe.

I'm asking if there is a difference between affecting the part of the whole ES that covers 1 universe VS the larger portion that covers 52 universes.

Aren't the Emotional spectrum one of the 7 forces of the multiverse similar to speed force?

How in the hell are they restricted to one universe?