DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[Emirp sumitpo]

Just use JLA/Avengers as properly scaling.

Ezpz

Based actually

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I'll respond to a few of Qaws' points, though not at all, since I have to look into a few of them and a lot of the stuff below H3A isn't very relevant.

Hourman's power comes from a Chrono-Staff more so than him. It's why he was nerfed to a power hour later on because he wouldn't use the staff's power.

Do you recall when he loses it? I can take a look into it and who scales to him before that.

The scaling chain also doesn't work because Extant was using Mobius' chair to counteract Hourman.

Might not be relevant depending on when he had the Infinite Power, but there was also the Triumph scale.

While true, remember that the Tesseract was able to just be on Earth/ground without ever damaging it. The fact that a finite space object can hold an infinite space should also be taken into account because that doesn't make logical sense. I don't think its useable as a justification

While it might not make sense to you, this is literally what it stated in the comic and what is supported by the Secret Files statement. The tesseracts are also extradimensional technology, so I think it's just that the tech is so advanced they can compress infinite spaces to fit in the tesseracts.

This was her bracers withstanding the energy, not here.

Both I and especially Tracer already refuted this before. It's explained as being both her bracelets if not especially her own strength, and there can be arguments made for her scaling to her bracelets, particularly in Rebirth.

The ratings are fine, but remember that they're in the 4th world in their true form. Such a scale is meaningless for cross-scaling.

Essentially, the argument is that the Earth Heroes can fight the 4th World people when on even ground. The New Gods' forms are based on the plane of existence they're in, and is proportionately amped or depowered by such. Therefore, if the Higher Dimensional New Gods can destroy Higher Dimensional Universes, in a normal Dimension, they'd be capable of destroying normal Universes.

It's not just them fighting. Right before it features various Gods fighting and right after it features more heroes fighting.

I'm down to put this as a supporting feat, but considering the text is talking specifically about the battle being reflected here in Marvel vs Lobo, I think the interpretation of it being their cause is rational.

The did nothing. Why? Because its directly shown they weren't enough and Spectre had to do all the work.

This is addressed in the OP:

The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.

Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.

It's pretty blatantly attributed to the heroes, saying they did nothing seems very odd.

While true, remember that Aztek is, as you yourself mentioned related to the God of light and his power comes from light. Even if the feat is Low 2-C, its from a source that just amps Superman (which as a note, is what he was trying to do so Superman could destroy the fight space Octopus).

While sunlight amps Superman, I don't think you can take just any light as amping Clark. Especially considering after the explosion, Supes has trouble talking, which wouldn't make sense if it amped him.

This feat is High 3-A afaik, since as shown by Flash's race with Death and Superman's final encounter with B13, time continues to exist before and after the Big Bang.

Can you show that? ZH treats the Big Bang as the creation of space and time, but I guess it's possible that it's particularly for that Big Bang and the others are H3A.
Supes also says they're might be no time, or now all time is merged. Though even if it was the latter, it'd imply Death was affecting time as well.

The Ageis channels cosmic energy which can be used for other stuff. It's how they moved Imperiex from the current year back to the Big Bang.

While the Ageis is Low 2-C, it's like how Imperiex is Low 2-C. Not really in a way that scales to anyone.

The Aegis is essentially just an amped Imperiex Probe turned into a suit, and the probes don't really work like that, so I don't think it's supposed to be just like Imperiex.

Nebula Man is confirmed to be an infant universe. One that exists in real space and can by visited by just shrinking down. This wouldn't be a Low 2-C feat, it's far to small and exists within the same timeline as the larger main-universe.

Addressed as him more so being compressed:

As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.

While true, I should also mention they were fighting on a planet and said planet wasn't destroyed from this clash. While it might be Tier 2 I think its a pretty bad Tier 2 feat.

Also addressed

This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.

The Red King stuff still isn't useful in my view, but the Auteur.io looks alright, albeit a bit weird.

Why don't you think Red King stuff is useful?

Starbreaker needed to feed during this arc, so he wasn't at max. The second scan also isn't true, they were fighting a hologram at the time as the page right after that one says. When they fought the real Starbreaker they couldn't damage him without either Zatanna or by causing him to eat his own energies

Doesn't really matter if he wasn't at max in this arc, this is the same arc where he kills the guy merging two Universes.
I think the hologram stuff is a misread, he was projecting a different image than has real one. It's still Starbreaker, he's treated as him with similar descriptions, and they still call him Starbreaker as well. Upon being drained of energy, he went back to his normal look.

I'm not sure he harmed Mordru, but he didn't die from an attack. But Mordru also didn't look like he was trying to kill Superman either

It's said he had him coughing teeth. Even if you don't take this literally, he'd still have to be hurting him and keeping him occupied here.

While both are fine, Captain Atom is pretty unreliable strength wise and various a lot.

Yeah, that was a big issue looking for scales to him, but here he's directly talking about using his Full Power.

He contributed nothing. Spectre is the one that ttriggersthe event. Later comics getting stuff wrong about the original like with Ms Marvel destroying a planet isn't anything new.

Scaling Superman above Kyle is fine, but this still wouldn't be Low 2-C afaik

As mentioned, already addressed. The Ms. Marvel example doesn't seem too relevant, especially when Doomsday Wars is by the same writer, Jurgens, and the original comic never says Spectre gave an important amount.
As mentioned before, the ZH Big Bang created the entire timeline again.

Just use JLA/Avengers as properly scaling.

Ezpz

Referenced by DC and Marvel and called canon by Busiek so seems fine

 

[Scottycj256]

• Darkseid - His 4-B should honestly just be removed. He rarely even uses avatars and his emanations have no reason to vary

THANK YOU HOLY ****

 

[Hellbeast]

Lets not go to far there. Over something like 12,000 comics these under 20 or 30 of these? I guess its more consistent that the 4-B stuff but they also weren't consistent either

Hence why I say “fairly” as an asterisk

 

[Hellbeast]

Based actually

Killer Whale > Namor meta confirmed

 

[Banandrakk]

I agree with this

 

[Vasco]

Are not the statements correlated? His physical condition its also what give him the power of a thousand of galaxies?

If we go on a technicality the "It didn't project my consciousness into another part of the galaxy or any of that bull." could also refer to his other quotes like the thousand galaxy.

But i can concede that perhaps the retcon was only meant to the consciousness, although personally i doubt.

I guess we can't really take his statement seriously

Everything in his original line cannot be taken as factual. He admitted he was outright lying to her the entire time.

He did mention what he was lying about but since he lied it makes the statement shaky.

 

[Scottycj256]

the tally so far

Agree: @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Starbrand_Fan, @Violatas, @Godernet, @Tipper17, @Liquid_Bigb0ss (?), @FantaRin_The_First, @KLOL506, @Planck69, @Excel616, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Banandrakk, @Scottycj256 (me), @Matthew_Schroeder @Firestorm808 (Agrees with Rebirth Flash feats), @Stefano4444
Disagree: @Matthew_Schroeder (on scaling), @Wagy
Neutral: @Planck69 (Regarding scaling issues)
Unsure on: @Firestorm808, @Vasco, @Hellbeast, @Qawsedf234, @Antvasima, @Adem_Warlock69

 

[Vasco]

Big Bangs are Tier 3 if time existed independently from the Big Bang and Tier 2 if time is dependent on the Big Bang. A Big Bang that creates a timeline will be Low 2-C, one that creates matter will be 3-A to High 3-A if the universe it made is comparable to the IRL one.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you recall when he loses it?

Give me a minute. It was in one of the Hourman series though.

Both I and especially Tracer already refuted this before.

The comic says the bracers explicitly block the blast, but deflecting them was her muscles. If you want to argue deflecting them should still count, sure. The the blast itself was only blocked due to her bracers.

Essentially, the argument is that the Earth Heroes can fight the 4th World people when on even ground

But they don't. They never fight their God form (consistently) without also being amped by a Boom Tube or when a 4th Worlder is shrunk by a Boom Tube. Feats performed in the 4th World only matter when they're in the 4th World as well.

battle being reflected here in Marvel vs Lobo

The battle is being reflected once by Marvel and Lobo, but the indication throughout the fight is that the entire cosmos was fighting. It wasn't just them.

It's pretty blatantly attributed to the heroes, saying they did nothing seems very odd.

I already explained why I don't think it's useable. Damage only exploded after Spectre finished pumping energy into him and it was after Damage was told he should only explode after getting enough energy.

While sunlight amps Superman, I don't think you can take just any light as amping Clark.

I don't think this works, especially during this arc. When anti-sunlight also amped Clark. He used a light explosion to free Clark from min control. Its not really a feat for base Superman.

Can you show that?

Flash outraces Death and results in running behind and past the Big Bang. The timeline reset of Zero Hour can be Low 2-C, but not the standard Big Bang in my view.

The Aegis is essentially just an amped Imperiex Probe turned into a suit, and the probes don't really work like that, so I don't think it's supposed to be just like Imperiex.

I'm not talking about the Probes, I'm talking about Imperiex. Like with the Aegis, B13 was going to use Imperiex to infect reality and change the universe.

Addressed as him more so being compressed:

Also addressed

I've countered addressed them. Like with Zero Hour I don't think they're useable.

Why don't you think Red King stuff is useful?

Because the story has moments like this or where the Red King is fluxing through dozens of different versions of himself. Plus the entire thing was a trick to just get the Red King into the hub world while they repower Doctor Destiney.

I think the hologram stuff is a misread, he was projecting a different image than has real one

It wasn't a misread. The small form of Starbreaker (which is where the scaling comes from) is the hologram and not the real one. Once dropped they fight the real Starbreaker and besides Zatanna they don't do anything to him. The only Tier 2 thing I can vaguely see is Superman/Green Lantern for overpowering him, but it also happens in an arc where he needs to feed so he's not as maximum strength.

. Even if you don't take this literally, he'd still have to be hurting him and keeping him occupied here.

He was being overpowered regularly and had to rely on others to do anything notable to Mordru. Like I said I can get it being a durability feat, but I don't see it being much of an AP one.

Yeah, that was a big issue looking for scales to him, but here he's directly talking about using his Full Power.

Captain Atom struggles with using his maximum power outside of certain mindsets. Which is why I said that he's hard to scale with.

As mentioned before, the ZH Big Bang created the entire timeline again.

ZH Big Bang is Low 2-C, so I can see Kyle scaling to that I guess. I'm not seeing the other one though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Give me a minute. It was in one of the Hourman series though.

Alright, yeah it was Hourman (1999) issue 1. After rewriting time to stop Time Amazo he got heavily limited in strength and ability.

 

[KLOL506]

Just use JLA/Avengers as properly scaling.

Ezpz

I wish I could but I haven't read the story LOL

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Low 2-C Supes but this is about to get stonewalled to death

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My big point of contention is the liberal scaling because Superman is known for being very variable with his power level. Definitely against scaling people like ******* Aquaman to 2-C because of this.

 

[Stefano4444]

My big point of contention is the liberal scaling because Superman is known for being very variable with his power level. Definitely against scaling people like ******* Aquaman to 2-C because of this.

I think for characters like him theu could just get a possibly 2-C and nothing else, or just Low 2-C.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Barry and Wonder Woman did Low 2-C feats, so pretty much every 4-B should scale (I think)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Definitely against scaling people like ******* Aquaman to 2-C because of this.

Timmy the villain Superman fought three times shouldn't be scaled to his full strength or whatever.

But Doomsday and certain other villains are fine. We just have to be careful like with Thor or Hulk scaling.

 

[Wagy]

How else to start the new year then unleashing hell itself?

Any derailing will be deleted. You have been warned.

Massive thanks to @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Amelia_Lonelyheart, @Confluctor and Highfather, Royals, and Era from Discord.

I should note this only affects Post-Crisis and Rebirth, as the latter scales to the former. We're not touching New 52 and that's for a whole other thread.

Regarding 4-B Heralds

So as of now, the DC heralds have really shaky justifications for their current 4-B rating, mostly containing outdated feats or feat with shaky evidence for 4-B or even scaling to anyone to begin with. So let's fold why 4-B isn't as consistent as it is.

We'll mainly be addressing the Large Star and Solar System level feats that the wiki currently uses, and explain why they don't limit the characters to those levels at all.

The first one to address is that Alan Scott's death would destroy the Solar System, as stated in JSA #19. However, despite this essentially being all of his energy leaking out, it's not concentrated at all, which is very important for Green Lanterns. One of the first and most important things rookie Lanterns are taught is the importance of concentration and focus, as we can see in Green Lantern Corps #27. This can be shown further with this scene from Justice League #1, where even Batman can snatch an unfocused Hal's ring. Concentration is also necessary for full strength, as shown in this scene from Justice League of America #22, where Alan and Hal's full might doesn't work until they concentrate it.

The next feat for Solar System level is the calc for this feat from The Flash #148. Here's the issue with the calc, it says that Flash is using relativistic Kinetic Energy and was just under the speed of light:


However, in this instance, Flash was moving exactly at lightspeed is exactly Infinite Mass in DC. Flash's Kinetic Energy shenanigans also certainly do not end at Solar System level, as he increased his mass to let him topple the Crisis on Infinite Earths Anti-Monitor and rupture space-time in Dark Crisis: Big Bang #1.

Next is this High 4-C supporting feat from Action Comics #847, and as is well-known, these are giving off red solar radiation, which is especially harmful to the Man of Steel, so this is a weakened Superman. John Stewart also also has his feat of creating a Solar System in Green Lantern #26, which has been used as a High 4-C supporting feat. This feat is a limit, as it was only temporary and required the full limits of the ring, but not a limit of Attack Potency, but rather to how complex his constructs can be, and how long he can hold them. This is demonstrably not correlated to power, as even Hal Jordan could only temporarily recreate a city before running out of charge, as seen in Green Lantern #48.

Next is the only Solar System level feat from Rebirth, in Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #26, where Orion's battle with an Nth Metal Golem destroys a Star System. While this already isn't implied to be a limit in any way, it's especially apparent that it's not when the next issue, Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps #27, clarifies it was just the shockwaves of their attacks destroyed the System, as we note on his page.

Another belief is that the 80s cast scaled even lower, citing many feats seemingly limiting the Pre-Death Superman to City level to Island level. While higher statistics could already fit in considering the varies tiering he has, there's little reason to limit him in the first place. Many of the seemingly City level anti-feats include nuclear blasts, which release harmful radiation, which we've seen can nerf Superman due to his solar energy absorption, as seen in Superman #29. We also saw in Superman/Wonder Woman #6-#7 that a nuclear blasts radiation is harmful enough to completely change Superman's appearance, and weakened him to the point where sunlight burned him.

While this is New 52 Superman, Post Crisis Superman has a very similar physiology, and actually absorbs more radiation, as is stated in Superman Annual #1, so if anything, the effects of nuclear radiation would be even more harmful to him. The feat for Island level from Action Comics #652 really has no reason to be a limit, as it's not Superman intentionally trying to cause damage, nor is he even in a fight, he's just enraged from learning what's been controlling him.

Now that's out of the way, we'll go over the many consistent High 3-A to 2-C feats present, and who scales to who.

Tier 3 - 2 feats

Spoiler: Tier 3

3-C​

• Flodo encompasses and destroys an evil Galaxy(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #219, December 1987)
  • Calculation

3-B​

• Starbreaker has laid waste to Galactic Clusters (Adam Strange Vol. 2 #7, May 2005)
• Supergirl tanks hits from Reactron and easily overpowers him (Supergirl Vol. 5 #25, March 2008) and later tanks a stray blast from his fight with Superman. Reactron is stated to have the power of a thousand galaxies in his hands. (Supergirl Vol. 5 #26, April 2008)
• Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies (Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)

High 3-A​

Superman

• Characters with Infinite Man's power had Infinite Power (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September, 1994), as was stated many times(Valor Vol. 1 #23, September 1994)
  • Infinite Man is as powerful as Darkseid (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #18, January 1986) and stalemated the Time Trapper (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #50, September 1988)
• Hourman has Infinite Power(Secret Origins of Super-Villains 80-Page Giant, December 1999)
  • Superman is able to defeat Extant (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #1, September 1994), who had an edge over Hourman (JSA Vol. 1 #13 August, 2000). Triumph, who one shot Hourman (JLA Vol. 1 #29, May 1999), only could contend with Superman after siphoning his Solar Energy (JLA Vol. 1 #31, July 1999)
• Superman and Steel move a tesseract(Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #100, May 2000)
  • This tesseract was described as infinite space within finite space (Superman: The Man of Steel Vol. 1 #99, April 2000), and is said to have Infinite space within (Superman Secret Files Vol. 1 #1, June 2000)
• Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)
• Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012) and has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36 December, 1999)

Green Lantern

• Hal's ring is a conduit to Infinity(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #1, June 1990)
  • Mogo is also said to have Limitless Power (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #159, April 2003)
• Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
  • Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)
• Ion has Infinite Power(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #146, March 2002)
  • Nero with Ion's power also had the power of the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
  • The Human Lanterns were able to fight Guardians with the powers of the Emotional Entities (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), with Entity-level scaling overall being consistent
• Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps September, 2016), which has been called an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms (The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained, November, 2021)
• Hal Jordan stops a bomb that could affect all matter in the Universe and destroy it (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #6, June 2019)

Flash

• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)

Wonder Woman

• Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
• Wonder Woman has survived lightspeed attacks from Zoom (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #214, May 2005), with lightspeed in DC being Infinite Mass (JLA Vol. 1. #3, March 1997)

New Gods

• Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)
  • Darkseid could've destroyed Dreggs if they weren't already did (New Gods Vol 3 #6, July 1989)

Others

• Shazam and Lobo's fight rock the cosmos. (Captain Atom #57, September 1991)

Spoiler: Tier 2

Low 2-C​

Superman

• Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994), and has the energies of space and time (Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 1 #233, November 1977)
• Superman survives Aztek's self destruction of 4th Dimensional energy(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Aztek's energy had previously been described as Limitless 4th Dimensional energy (JLA Vol 1 #10 September, 1997)
• Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Death implies that WITS really happened. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Lois references WITS in Rebirth. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #1030, June 2021)
• Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
• Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)
  • Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
• Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines (Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006)

Green Lantern

• The GLC Central Battery can become as large as and destroy the entire Universe(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Hal Jordan has survived attacks from Sinestro possessing the Central Battery (Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Superman survived attacks from and matches Molly (Justice League Vol. 4 #19, May 2019) with the power of the Central Battery and other sources (Justice League Vol. 4 #17, April 2019)
• Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang (Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
• Kyle Rayner survives being blasted by the Zero Hour Big Bang (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
• Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power(Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
  • As mentioned before, human Lanterns have fought Guardians when they were amped. They also fought and overpowered the Controllers before being mind controlled (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #36, March 2018). Hal also believes he could defeat someone who defeated the Guardians (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #32, January 2018), with Guardians being compared in power to individual power batteries (Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
• Kyle Rayner and Anarky reverse the warping of the universe. (Anarky Vol. 2 #3, July 1999)
• Ion could remake the Universe (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
• The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010), and fought an Obsidian/Jade merge (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010), both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010), while gradually losing power
  • The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)

Flash

• Barry Allen and Godspeed survived attacks from an amped Paradox, who was destroying the timestream (The Flash Vol. 1 #756, August 2020)

Wonder Woman

• Wonder Woman has defeated Circe, with Circe only going as far as to call Diana her equal(Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #176, January 2002)
  • Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe (War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991), with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)

New Gods

• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos (Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)

2-C​

Superman

• Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multiple times, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
• Superman separates two worlds(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • These worlds are represented as tapes, the literal fabric of reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021), and each strip is a different reality (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #20, September 2021)
• Superman one shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021), and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)

Starbreaker

• Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
  • Superman and Hal Jordan have fought Starbreaker's pull (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29, March 2009), and Icon and John Stewart have staggered Starbreaker (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)

2-C, possibly 2-A​

Superman

• Superman tanks a blast from Mordru and harms him. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)
• Superman punches out Barbatos (Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)

Hal Jordan

• Hal Jordan knocks off Spectre (Crispus Allen)'s jaw, staggering him and freeing the Guardians, and stabs him with help from the Guardians (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #50, March 2010)
• Hal Jordan defeats Krona (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #67, August 2011), who had the power of the Emotional Entities (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #64, May 2011)

Captain Atom

• Captain Atom is sent flying by someone he compares to an out of control Superman, and believes he'd need all his power to defeat her (Captain Atom: Armageddon Vol. 1 #7, June 2006)

Spoiler: Supporting Evidence

Superman

• Supergirl and Superman tank attacks from Blackstarr, who has power over the energy of the cosmos. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #850, July 2007)
• Superboy is able to damage Superboy-Prime (Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
• While fighting a serious Captain Atom, Hank Hall Monarch twisted space and time, destroying Universes within atoms(Armageddon 2001 Vol. 1 #2, October 1991)
  • Superman could have stopped Hank Hall Monarch. (Adventures of Superman Annual #3, October 1991)
  • Hank Hall Monarch is comparable to Despero and Dreamslayer (Justice League America Vol. 1 #87, April 1994), with the latter being a rival to Darkseid (Justice League America Vol. 1 #88, May 1994)
  • Superman is implied to be capable of defeating Extant, who is stronger than Hank Hall Monarch. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #1, September 1994)

Wonder Woman

• A battle between Diana and Cassie makes it seem like the energies of the Universe are erupting and will tear the foundations of reality (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #156, May 2000)

Others

• Extant defeats Kent Nelson Doctor Fate (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #3, September 1994)
• Black Adam tanks lightning from and staggers Hector Hall Doctor Fate (JSA Vol. 1 #6, January 2000)
• Orion has control over the Fundamental Forces of the Universe (JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
• Darkseid tanks a bomb that rips apart existence. (Action Comics Vol. 1 Annual #13, February 2011)

Debunks to the debunks

Might as well address the debunks to these feats. The main threads we're going to debunk are the following three, which are often brought up during the whatever universal DC upgrade there is:

• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:FanofRPGs/Sandbox
• https://www.fanverse.org/blogs/some-quick-superman-feat-debunks.37730/
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Firestorm808/Superman_Feats_Timeline_Project

Spoiler: The Golden Age Supes vs Post-Crisis Supes clash

The first thing that a lot of people will bring up is the idea of the Multiverse being weakened, however, this has many, many counters. First, let's go through the reasons people think this. In this statement from Infinite Crisis #3, it's stated the Multiverse was unstable.

First off, the Multiverse being unstable doesn't have to mean it literally was breaking, it's likely referring to the theme of the morality of this Multiverse being messed up, and things not being as good as they were on Earth-2. But even if it was literal, the source of the statement is from Alexander Luthor (Infinite Crisis #2), who had pretty much told them everything they believed, and he was the main villain of the story who was lying to everyone, so as a source it's hard to take it seriously.

In Infinite Crisis #1, it's stated the center of the Universe has shifted, but this really doesn't mean the Universe was damaged. It just means that a planet moved, which really isn't a big difference.

It's confirmed in Infinite Crisis #4 that this was just Superboy moving the Planet, so this wasn't the result of the Universe being damaged or anything.

Next there's the 95 million mile tear in reality, as stated in these two panels, and frankly, this doesn't prove anything.

First is that there's no evidence this affected time and not just space. Secondly is that even if this was the case, there are 5,879,000,000,000 miles in a Light Year, and the DC Universe at least has 100 Trillion Light Years. Not only that, but we have consistent size for the DC universe being Infinite in size, as the wiki has already accepted and is in this blog.

A very important thing to keep in mind is that the Universes still exist. They're still full Universes regardless and time obviously exists, and even a weakened space-time is 4D. As such, it qualifies for a Universal-sized time-space and would be At least Universal+.

Lastly, direct your attention towards this statement from Infinite Crisis #6. It's stated that the worlds "will become weaker as they're divided". This means that at this point, it's blatantly shown it wasn't weakened, and this is after the fight is over.

The next argument is that the feat is metaphorical and didn't actually happen. Let's take a look at the reasoning:



While both Supermen are angry, there's no reason to say they're downright delusional to think some space-time shattering is happening when there isn't, especially considering how they continuously experience it.

Next we have these reasonings:



This is true, but doesn't attack the point. The point isn't that they destroyed the Universe, but rather that they affected space-time on a Universal scale, and that it's possible their fight could've reached this level.



This is absolutely an argument from ignorance, someone not saying something doesn't mean it's not happening. On top of this, we see a ton of reality shenanigans in these scans, so you could argue they were being affected too if you want to take this literally.



This is also an argument from ignorance. The first point also stands here, that at the point in the fight they got too, they didn't destroy the Universe or anything, just that they were affecting the Universe with their AP.



Next there's this. The first one is that I don't get how you can change someone's subjective reality by punching them? This isn't stated or implied by anything at all, and in fact there's evidence that it beyond their own memories. We see plenty of events Superman wasn't there for, but rather characters like Batman, Hal Jordan, etc.

Lastly, the back of the comic says they were bending reality, so this seemingly confirms the events being literal.

Spoiler: The Zero Hour Big Bang

The big point of contention is how much Superman actually contributes. However, as mentioned before, the DC Universe is far larger than ours, and likely Infinite. On top of that, as stated in Zero Hour #0, the Big Bang created time and space as well, so this is a 4D feat. If Superman was brought to contribute, he must at least be 1% responsible, making this a Universal+ feat.

Even if Supes didn't scale to it, Kyle Rayner (who he scales above, as he took out many Imperiex Probes [Adventures of Superman #594] that could take out Kyle [JLA: Our Worlds at War]) survives it, as he was blasted by it and was still conscious.

Superman also scales above some of the characters who contributed. Superman scales above Guy Garnder (as he could take on DoS Doomsday, who easily took out Guy), who overpowered the Ray in Justice League America #41. Donna Troy is a character generally sub Wonder Woman level, and Superman scales above her, as backed up by numerous sources. Him scaling to Captain Atom is debatable, but if you think Supes only scales to Atom when Atom is holding back and that Atom holds back even in dire situations, this means that this isn't the Full Power Atom who has the Universal creation feats, and it can't be applied to the version contributing to the Big Bang.

The next argument is the Spectre interfering, but the feat is explained in detail in Superman: The Doomsday Wars #2. When explaining how it's a great feat of timeline recreation (also further showing it's creating time), it attributes it to these heroes and not the Spectre. It's explained that Supes and the other heroes made the energy, Waverider turned it into temporal energy, and Damage launched it.

Spectre's contribution is likely pretty small, as his only goal is to give Damage enough so that he can't hold it anymore, and as mentioned before, he's not credited for the timeline recreation. So, this holds up as a legit Uni+ feat for the heroes involved.

Spoiler: Nebula Man

The first thing I want to point out is that Superman, absolutely, 100% scales to Nebula Man. We see their fight in JLA: Classified #3, and Superman staggers him twice, also tanking his beam without any damage. The only reason anyone doesn't think this is valid is because Nebula Man says this fight was enough for now and he was just testing Superman, but this is clearly just him making excuses, especially when you look at what was said prior.

As stated in JLA: Classified #2, his goal was straight up to kill Superman, and he gasses himself up right before he fights Superman in #3, asking who will fall to him first. His intention was clearly to fight and kill Superman, and he left when he realized his attacks had no effect. Superman blatantly scales above him and Nebula Man's statement is just his ego. Also, as shown in Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #3, his head beam is seemingly a move he uses to kill, so this further supports him actually trying vs Supes.

As far as him being a mini-Universe goes, well obviously yeah. No one argues he's literally Universal in size. The point is he's a compressed Universe, we know this since it's said he's a supermatter (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4), something like a Supersolid, which relates to condensed matter physics. This makes sense since he's no longer a baby Universe like as Qwewq, but now is an adult.

Lastly, this scan doesn't contradict what's stated above and could even help it, as despite being physically small and compressed, he still could've been a Universe if not for his flaw. And for one last thing to add on, even if Nebula Man was just a small, mini Universe, he would still be composed of an infinite amount of these tiny planets and stars, so even then he'd still be High Universal.

Spoiler: Red King

Next is the Red King, which is fairly simple. Superman scales to a character that can destroy entire universes.

The Materioptikon is not part of Red King’s abilities, but as shown, that’s virtually irrelevant due to his feats. As shown, the Red King explicitly implies his blast was intended to kill Supes, that’s fairly obvious evidence that a significant amount of power is being used. His second blast is when the League are explicitly in fragile form, like Wally and John being held together by pure will and operating on broken bones. Superman is also in deteriorating form, and is progressively losing cells to harness solar radiation, and is now boasting spikes, showing his worsened condition. None of the League members are at peak, besides Diana, who Superman scales fairly above. MMH, is also killed by fire, so not actually AP based.

Wally’s statement is about a Superman being outdone by Red King when they do things as a team, who according to Countdown #3, is when he's prevented from going all out due to his teammates existence. Supes himself verbatim states that he can hold a merged Red King as long as he needs to. Red King did defeat the League, but it’s through explicit planning over millions of lifetimes with thousands of plans and counter measures. This can also explain why the League is so amazed by him, as he's ready for anything to go up against and basically can't be taken off-guard. There can also be an argument made for Supes scaling to Destiny, who’s implied to be superior to the Red King.

While some question Red King's power in battle, he's pretty blatantly capable of destroying Universes, and I'll add on a debunk to this specifically.


The hub world point doesn't make much sense, since it just means that it's a central area that connects to many others, not that it's the only place he can destroy Universes. Suggesting it's space-time hax is also silly, since as far as we see it's just a power beam.

Spoiler: Where is Thy Sting

The first thing to cover is the reasoning people say it's not real. First off, Superman suspects he's hallucinating, but this is just his guess. Death seemingly confirms it is, but then compares regular life to hallucinations too, meaning he's essentially saying everything Superman thinks is real is fake, which obviously isn't true. Superman again asks if it's real, though again, this is still him not being sure.

Superman asks Death if it was all a dream, and Death responds that he can choose to believe it if it comforts him, but really it was on planes of reality where mind and matter intersect. Superman says it was a dream, but this is just him choosing to believe it was. And to further clarify what death is describing, he's talking about a place where Superman's psychological demons take physical form, as he says "where which hides in our dreams takes form", meaning what's happening here was physical. On top of this, in Action Comics #1030, we see Lois referencing it as if it did indeed happen.

As for the destruction of the Universe being heat death, this is never implied at all. All we know is it's a black hole that collapsed the Universe, so this comes from nowhere. Also, even if it was a Universal amount of entropy, that's still a Universal durability feat, the same way surviving a fire that can burn down Universes would be Universal and not just heat resistance.

From Death's description, it's very likely a physical feat, though I can see reason to doubt this, so at the very least this should be a strong supporting feat for Low 2-C. As for the Heat Death argument, it's really baseless and mostly irrelevant.

Spoiler: Superman vs. Time Trapper

Next is Time Trapper. People often say that Trapper was fighting Conner Kent as Superboy Prime in the past, which was shown altering the future. However, this isn’t Conner’s punches literally affecting Trapper through time, just the effects of the fight, such as a wound inflicted still showing. A physical attack landed possibly trillions of years prior won’t have any profound effect on the current state of Trapper. The heat vision is specifically a wound inflicted that never healed.

Even before the reveal and the eventual wounds he suffered, Superman could still survive bloodlusted attacks from Trapper, blitz him and stagger him. The power of Trapper is contentious, as there’s been multiple versions of him according to DC Encyclopedia: New Edition, possible embodying the same being, or possibly hosts more like Spectre. However, this Trapper is at least regarded as a sentient timeline, and would scale off Superboy-Prime.

Side note: Superboy being able to wound Prime also boosts the argument for Superman as well. A lot of people debate Prime’s state, but he was rejuvenated with solar radiation just before encountering Conner. Prime’s rage is debatable and hard to quantify, but before the battle he’s forced to relive the events of Infinite Crisis reversed, with him portrayed as a D list villain, and characters like Superman and Superboy portrayed as heroes. Given that Prime is not only going through the same process as Infinite Crisis, but now attacks against his own status, it’s more logical to say his rage wouldn’t be drastically altered. For context, Alexander Luthor says this in a comic where Prime is back on his home world, with his family and his girlfriend, and is eventually redeemed, something LO3W Prime is explicitly unable to do.

Also for the lack of the suit Prime usually wears, the suit just feeds Prime sunlight, something his cells could already do regardless. He also has arguably his toughest fight without the suit against Sodam Yat as well.

Spoiler: Phantom Zone scaling

Next, the Phantom Zone. There’s three main points to tackle.

1. Superman being physically linked to the Phantom Zone
2. Superman being dimensionally amped
3. Superman being unaware of the structure shaking

The first one is fairly simple. It comes from Superman #215, where Clark states that Zod and himself are connected physically to the world Zod was banished into, being the Phantom Zone. However, this is not talking about the Phantom Zone. It’s talking about Metropia, a world born from Jor Els technology created off a question Lois presented. This is the world Superman and Zod are fighting in, as mentioned multiple times.

Now another question may come. Why did Superman say Zod was banished here? Simple. Metropia is made from the clay of the Phantom Zone as stated in Superman #214. Zod was in the Phantom Zone for such a long period, he became engrained in its very fabric and nature, causing him to appear in this world created from it. Essentially, the statement has nothing to do with the Phantom Zone being connected to Superman’s nature and physical body. It’s referring to Metropia, a world made from Superman and Lois’s dialogue made from the clay of the Phantom Zone. The only reason Supes is connected to it is because he specifically made it.


This is kinda weird, because there’s literally zero mention of him warping or remaking the Phantom Zone. It’s explicitly stated many times it’s a world created, not one simply remade. Again, this is all exclusive to the arc and not a general overview of the Phantom Zone. And for the record, the two Zods fighting are not the same, so being part of the clay doesn’t mean much for Rebirth Zod.

The next one is Supes being in a higher dimension. The DC Map states that the Phantom Zone is within the Godsphere, which characters must be dimensionally amped to reside in. However, this doesn’t really change the nature of the Phantom Zone, just its dimensionality. If a higher dimensional being can threaten a higher dimensional Universe, it would still scale to a normal being threatening a normal Universe.

Lastly, people often point out that Superman was unaware that the Phantom Zone could hold a planet, making him not credible on such a statement. Firstly, this doesn’t have much relevance. While he is previously unaware, he has various comics afterwards where he’s living and fighting in it. From there, his credibility can be bolstered due to direct exposure to the capacities of the Phantom Zone. As shown in WITS, Superman is able to tell that the entire Universe and Creation is in its dying stages. This shows how far Superman’s awareness can actually span. We also know stuff like Superman being able to see infinite distances and whatnot, so his awareness spanning this far once within the Phantom Zone is quite plausible. Lastly, it’s sort of a very odd thing to write if it weren’t true. It sorta goes against the intent of a statement that narratively isn’t contingent off being false or exaggerated or ignorant being false. It’s also odd because Superman clearly now knows it’s much larger than Earth, so trying to argue it’s a planetary feat off intent is weird.


Another side point. The refutation that Superman means to destroy the Phantom Zone with gear is very odd. Separate interpretations are completely fine when they have a basis, but this one has pretty much nothing to it. Superman refers to having the power to do it, and the entire context is around Superman’s moral system and his ability to control his power even with tests and tough times. To say it means gear or even hyperbole with no real basis is sort of disingenuous, especially given the context. Another thing noted is he would have destroyed one, which completely misses the point of not only heroes and Superman, but the scan itself. Supes is talking about on normal days he can control and restrain his morals. As a hero, it’s clearly not in character to go around nuking dimensions.

Spoiler: Hal Jordan vs Krona

Next up is Krona scaling. The first thing to note is this refutation:


Just to keep in mind, at this point, Hal has fought Sinestro, Lobo, Atrocitus, Larfleeze, Predator, and Parallax Flash, with some of these being extended fights where Hal is clearly harmed, so it should be fair to say this isn't Hal at his full power, and this would explain why Hal does so much better later in the arc. As for this:


This is quite blatantly not true. We literally see Hal make the plan to contact the entities to remove them from the Guardians, which Hal gets Kyle to do by drawing in Krona's book, with Krona still overriding their usage of the rings. At this point, we see Krona get all the rings, and he seemingly attacks Hal with all the entities on panel. On top of this, the entities are only freed after Hal defeats Krona, so it's pretty clear Krona was still controlling them.

As for Hal being on this level being an Outlier, he harmed Black Lantern Crispus, and normal Crispus has fought the Butcher, a weaker Hal has taken attacks from a possessed GLC power battery, he fought the Predator, multiple GLs fought the Guardians with the Entities, Atrocitus fought the Butcher, Hal survived Krona attacking him with the Entities, etc. It's pretty consistent for them to scale to this level, especially in Geoff John's run.

Other Hal Feats​

Now I'll look into two other controversial Hal feats that could be used for this upgrade.

Starting off, we have Hal Jordan knocking off Black Lantern Crispus Allen's jaw in Green Lantern #50. Let's take a look at why this is rejected:


This is kind of hilarious, as obviously it takes lot of power to knock someone's jaw off, and is clearly recoiling as well. Saying that "Lanterns attacked him to no real effect" is also odd, as one of the scans linked has Spectre being stabbed through and yelling. At the very least, Hal does better than the Big Bang level Guardians, who get overpowered pretty quickly and easily. Also, the Lanterns needing Parallax can just be because Crispus was endlessly regenerating, not because he was more powerful than them. Next we have the feat of containing the Universe-threatening U-Bomb in The Green Lantern #6.


Limiting this feat to Large Star level is a bit odd. We know the detonation would've affected all matter in DC's Infinite Universe, so it likely should be a High Universal feat. The recorded output being 10^44 joules doesn't really limit much, as it's phrased as limited information and it's said to be "an energy output" rather than "the energy output", so it could be one of many. And while it is true that Hal used energy from the Central Power Battery, it's unlikely this is much of an amp, considering previously mentioned scaling.

Spoiler: DeMatteis saying Superman isn't Universal

This one is a really simple debunk. Basically, DC writer J.M. DeMatteis says Superman destroying the Universe is a stretch. Is this conclusive evidence to Kal not being Universal? Not quite.

First thing to cover is alternate interpretations. The first thing is that Superman destroying the Universe will immediately sound like a stretch to anyone familiar with character, since that's not at all something he would do. As well as this, destroying the Universe generally involves having to defeat anyone who'd try to stop him, which is a tall task in a franchise with such powerful characters. As well as this, even if Superman isn't capable of destroying the Universe, that could be due to his range, and he could still have Universal AP.

As well as this, when asked if Superman could destroy the Universe-sized Phantom Zone (as clarified by the questioner), he said he had no clue. This brings us to an important point, DeMatteis' twitter statements are completely unusable for scaling. According to him, anyone's interpretation of the comic is as important as his own. He's also explained that these vs battle questions aren't up his alley, and aren't things he actively thinks about. This carries on to other things, such as how abilities work and if certain comics are dreams.

Spoiler: The Green Lantern Corps stopping a Galaxy level explosion

Are all the Green Lanterns together really only Galaxy level? Feat here comes from Green Lantern #25. Let's take a look.

First thing to look into is the statement for it being Galactic. This is legit, but it's really questionable if this is the maximum range of it, or at least the maximum potency. Let's take a similar example with Monarch, after Superboy Prime breaches his armor, a Universe destroying explosion comes out, and knocks out the 2-C, possibly 2-A Prime. The wiki reasonably treats this as a 2-C, possibly 2-A feat on Atom's page, showing the Wiki excepts the idea of explosions like these having potency greater than their range. Not only this, but something that envelops the Universe would also cover the Milky Way Galaxy, so while nothing states this to be higher, there's no real reason to say this is the limit to it either.

On top of this, let's look into the Lanterns involved. While there's a lot of big names there, Hal and Kyle are off fighting Sinestro, so it's not like literally every Lantern was there. Not to mention, they're literally in the middle of a war against the Sinestro Corps. Hal and Kyle even approach 0% energy, and the Lanterns that contain it are all seemingly scratched up. On top of this, many of the Green Lanterns still had energy left and continued to fight Prime, so they clearly didn't use all of their energy to do this.

In conclusion, nothing actually caps the bomb at Galaxy level. Its range is never limited, and even if it was only Galactic, its potency could be higher. It's also important to take into consideration the state of the Lanterns performing this feat, as many of them were at low levels, or would at least want to conserve energy, which would be a good reason to have as many contribute as possible. Even with this, some big names like Hal and Kyle were absent from this, and many of the ones who were didn't exhaust all their energy.

Who scales to who?

After all of that, we get to the final part. Who scales to who and to what? Here is the listed scaling for who scales what.

Spoiler: Who scales to who

Note that any mention of 2-C here might actually be 2-C, possibly 2-A. There's a good amount of stuff for scaling to the 2-C, possibly 2-A characters, but we might also do what we do on King Thor's key or the Cosmic Cube's page where we only scale them to the lower end that's more consistent with their other feats. Also note that anything for "Low 2-C, maybe 2-C" is not me suggesting a possibly rating, rather they either scale to flat out Low 2-C or flat out 2-C depending on where we tier Diana-level characters,

• Black Adam (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, scales very close to Clark
• Captain Marvel (Billy Batson) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, scales close to Clark
• Doomsday (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, beat Darkseid and is on Supes' level
• General Eiling (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, stronger than a full strength JL
• General Zod (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, has pushed Superman and has scaling above Supergirl
• Parallax - Up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+. Hosts vary but some are able to use the entity's power at a comparable level to the real deal, similar to how we treat Ion
• Supergirl (Post-Crisis) - Universe level+, possibly Low Multiverse level. Definitely not on Clark's level, but you might be able to downscale to Low Multi. Should definitely be Low Multi if Diana is.
• Superboy-Prime - Stays as varies with 4-B removed
• Trigon (Post-Flashpoint) - If his only feats are N52, then he's unaffected
• Wonder Woman (Post-Crisis) - Universe level+, possibly Low Multiverse level. Not on Supes' level and has scaling below most Lanterns, but you could probably downscale her and she punched out Kalibak, who could be argued to be on Orion's level.
• Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, scaling off of Flashes and hurting Clark, Diana and Hal
• Batman (Post-Crisis) - Justification is pretty bad but if we can get stuff to substantiate it, prep time Bats could be upgraded
• Martian Manhunter (Post-Crisis) - Universe level+, possibly Low Multiverse level. Scales above Diana and can be argued to be on Supes and peak Lantern's level, but also has a lot of scaling for being below. Has the Darkseid fight in DC One Million as well.
• Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, stronger than Barry who could hurt Hal and scales to Zoom. Wally could harm Zum, who is stated to be Superman level.
• Lobo (Post-Crisis) - Varies up to Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Depends on if we want to downscale him from Clark and Lanterns, and if we want Diana to be Low Multi.
• The Spectre - Should probably be Low Multiverse level in Rebirth, though his justifications atm are based on N52 stuff
• The Joker (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level physicals as Emperor Joker, "Initially 3-A" should be removed
• Solomon Grundy (Post-Crisis) - Varies up to Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Should scale wherever Diana and Kara scale. Alan Scott scaling is weird because Grundy has been described as basically countering Alan due to the nature of the Green and the Grey.
• Superman (Earth-Two) - Low Multiverse level for stalemating PC
• Superman (Rebirth) - Low Multiverse level
• Superman (One Million) - Low Multiverse level
• Superman (Kingdom Come) - Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Is actually weaker than PC Clark, but can be scaled to Power Girl
• Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) - Low Multiverse level, though maybe give it an "at peak"
• Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, downscales from Hal, fought Guardians with the Entity's power, and scales to John
• Orion (DC Comics) - Low Multiverse level, scales to Darkseid and downscales from Clark
• Starro (Pre-Flashpoint) - Low Multiverse level
• Mogo the Living Planet - At least High 3-A, but might have higher scaling
• Thaal Sinestro (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level
• Sodam Yat - His justification is pretty bad with no scans. Maybe could be scaled of Flodo's galaxy level feat if there's no reason to scale him to Clark and Kyle?
• Yellow Lantern Power Ring - Up to 2-C for scaling to Sinestro
• The Phantom Stranger (Post-Flashpoint) - His scaling is from N52 but iirc he fights Diana in Rebirth, so he should probably scale?
• Darkseid - His 4-B should honestly just be removed. He rarely even uses avatars and his emanations have no reason to vary
• Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes) (Post-Crisis) - Probably could be 2-C for scaling off of Guy
• Superboy (Post-Crisis) - Up to 2-C, maybe could mention him fighting Prime
• Flash (Post-Flashpoint) - Not sure if the normally part would have to stay, but if it does, something like 2-C normally, possibly 2-A at peak could work
• Raven (Post-Flashpoint) - If Trigon is scaled off N52 stuff, she'd be unaffected. If it's based off Rebirth, might be 2-C
• Wonder Woman (Post-Flashpoint) - N52 key is unaffected, Rebirth should be 2-C from downscaling from Clark, since she seems to have way closer scaling to him than she had in PC.
• Atrocitus - Normally can be removed, especially considering the Spectre/Butcher stuff was in the same arc he was comparable to Hal and the other Lanterns
• Green Lantern (Alan Scott) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level for scaling to Kyle
• Grail (DC Comics) - Low Multiversal if she scales to Rebirth WW, but I don't see a scan on the profile
• Supergirl (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multi in Rebirth via downscaling seems fine
• Godspeed (Post-Flashpoint) - Up to Low Multiverse level should be fine
• Superboy (Jonathan Samuel Kent) (Post-Rebirth) - I think Low Multiversal is fine, I think he also has some scaling to Orion
• Swamp Thing (Post-Flashpoint) - Unaffected if he's scaled off N52 stuff, but should be Low Multiverse if he's scaled off Rebirth
• Cyborg Superman - Low Multiverse level for scaling to Clark
• Aquaman (Post-Flashpoint) - Justification could use more evidence but he should be Low Multi for scaling to Rebirth Diana
• Zauriel (Post-Crisis) - Either Uni+ or Low Multi depending on where we put PC MMH
• Mister Mxyzptlk - Should have Low Multiversal physicals
• Aquaman (Post-Crisis) - Most of his Kyle stuff seems to be rookie Kyle, who's best scaling is Uni+. If he scales to WW and WW is decided to be Low Multiversal, that's fine too.
• Circe (Post-Crisis) - At least Uni, but should be Low Multi if Diana is
• Larfleeze - Should probably just be "Varies, up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level+"
• Star Sapphire (DC Comics) - Her current justification is shaky, but she's done decently well vs Sinestro, so I could see Low Multiversal
• Maxima (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level for her feats against Orion and Pre Death Superman should be fine
• King Shark (Post-Crisis) - Should probably scale wherever Arthur ends up. The Superboy stuff is very early on and the Supes scaling doesn't seem very concrete
• Green Lantern (John Stewart) (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, staggered Icon, ahs Entity scaling, and downscales from Hal
• Big Barda (Post-Crisis) - Uni+, maybe Low Multi. Should be above random New Gods and scales to Diana
• The Batman Who Laughs - 2-C is probably fine
• The Drowned - 2-C seems fine
• The Merciless - Ditto
• Red Tornado (Post-Crisis) - From what his justification says, 2-C should be fine
• Ultra Comics
• The Weird (Post-Crisis) - 2-C if we get Pre Death Supes at 2-C. If not it's a bit odd, since he still wiped the League, who don't have a reason to get stronger later
• Anarky (Post-Crisis) - Slightly downscales from 90s Kyle. If we don't era split Kyle, 2-C would be fine, but before Circle of Fire Kyle's best stuff was Low 2-C, with all his better scaling being afterwards.
• Kilowog (Post-Crisis) - Could fight Clark when he had two rings and shouldn't be too far below other GLs, so I don't mind 2-C, but maybe it should be a possibly
• The Devastator - Is stated to be equal to Rebirth Doomsday, so should be straight up Low Multiversal
• The Murder Machine - Low Multiversal might be fine depending on how different his Universe's JL is
• The Red Death (Dark Nights Metal) - Needs scans, but if he scales to Flash Low Multi would be fine
• The Dawnbreaker - Low Multiverse level is solid
• Mother Boxes - Low Multiverse level is probably fine
• Highfather - Low Multiverse level probably. Not one to one with DS and Orion, but not too far off
• Plastic Man (Post-Crisis)
• The Monitors (DC Comics) - 2-C should be fine
• Nix Uotan - 2-C seems fine
• Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond) (Post-Crisis) - 2-C in his last key should be fine
• Mister Majestic - Holy moly his justification needs some work, but 2-C should be fine
• King Shark (Post-Flashpoint)
• Knockout (Post-Crisis) - Should scale to whatever level Diana and Bara are at
• Deathstroke (Post-Flashpoint) - Seems to be based off N52, so unaffected
• Kalibak - His fight with Clark is an alternate future, which we don't use. Also is Pre Death who is in a weird spot atm. Orion scaling is more viable but considering he always loses to Orion I don't know how to feel about him.
• Lightray - 2-C for scaling to Orion seems fine
• Lex Luthor (Post-Flashpoint) - Justification lacks scans for first key, but at face value would be 2-C. The other keys should be 2-C, especially Apex Lex
• Miss Martian - Should scale to whatever we put Kara at
• Weapons Master - If Pre-Death Supes is 2-C, he probably should be too. He's missing the MMH scans but I know he fights him, so if we don't get Pre-Death Supes to 2-C, he should scale to wherever we put J'onn at.
• Guardians of the Universe - Low 2-C for being Big Bang level, specific ones like Ganthet may be 2-C
• Parademon Alien - Low Multiversal should be fine
• Firestorm (Jason Rusch) (DC Comics) - Low Multiversal for scaling off Orion
• Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth) - Should also be Low Multiverse level and maybe should be restructured to "Varies, up to 2-C, possibly 2-A"
• Naomi (Post-Rebirth) - Needs some scans for the justification, but possibly Low Multiverse level might be fine
• Despero (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multiverse level seems solid
• Green Lantern Power Ring - Up to Low Multiverse level for sure
• B-0 (Post-Flashpoint) - Would be unaffected if the scaling is off N52 stuff, but I think he has feats for scaling to Rebirth characters
• Martian Manhunter (Post-Flashpoint) - Very barebones justification. Currently is scaled off N52 Clark who won't be affected, but if someone could get scans for MMH scaling to Rebirth characters, that'd give him Low Multiversal.
• Bizarro - A bit of an odd case, but I don't mind Low Multi downscaling from Supes
• Krypto the Superdog - Either Uni+ or Low Multi, though I might lean towards the latter considering the feat against Mongul
• Ursa (Post-Crisis) - Uni+ or Low Multi depending on where Kara scales
• Black Hand - Low Multi for fighting 100% Hal seems fine
• General Zod (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multiversal seems fine, but I don't really agree with Zod under two suns being above Clark and Hal
• Power Girl (Pre-Flashpoint) - Either Uni+ or Low Multi depending on where we put Diana and Kara
• Power Girl (Post-Flashpoint) - Justification doesn't have key scans and seems to be based off N52 Superman, so might be unaffected
• Starfire (Pre-Flashpoint) - Should probably scale wherever Diana scales
• Blackfire (Pre-Flashpoint) - Ditto
• Hawkgirl (Kendra Saunders) (Post-Flashpoint)
• Hawkman (Carter Hall) (Post-Flashpoint)
• Hawkwoman (Shayera Thal) (Post-Flashpoint)
• Hawkman (Katar Hol) (Post-Flashpoint)
• Rac Shade (Post-Flashpoint)
• Loma Shade (DC Comics)
• Apollo (Post-Flashpoint)
• Etrigan (Post-Flashpoint)
• I, Vampire (Post-Flashpoint)
• Cain (New 52)
• Tig Rafelson (DC Comics)
• Frankenstein (Post-Flashpoint)
• Madame Xanadu (Post-Flashpoint)
• Black Orchid (Post-Flashpoint)
• Ragman (Post-Flashpoint)
• The Bride (Post-Flashpoint)
• John Constantine (Post-Flashpoint)
• Zatanna (Post-Flashpoint) - If she's based off N52 scaling, unaffected. If it's based off Rebirth, should be upgraded
• Nightmare Nurse (DC Comics)
• Captain Atom (Post-Crisis) - His page should probably now be "Varies, up to Low Multi possibly Multi+)
• Captain Atom (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multi seems fine, though unrestricted and with absorption should just say "higher"
• Brainiac (Pre-Crisis) - Unaffected, since it's based off of his own feats in Pre Crisis
• Brainiac (Post-Crisis) - Should be Low Multi at the points where he's currently 4-B
• Brainiac (Post-Flashpoint) - Low Multiversal for fighting Clark seems fine
• Papa Midnite (Post-Flashpoint)
• Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) (Rebirth) - Low Multiversal for scaling to the League
• Reverse Flash (Rebirth) - Low Multiversal for scaling off Barry should be fine
• Livewire (Post-Crisis) - Low Multi at peak absorption might be fine if Blue Beetle is
• Superman (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, a lot of this scaling comes from him
• Despero (Post-Crisis) - Low Multiverse level, consistently scales above MMH and has taken on whole teams
• Etrigan (Post-Crisis) - Uni+, maybe Low Multi. Has feats scaling him to Diana and is Lobo level

The scaling needs some work there and there, because like Superman other heroes aren't also very consistent in their power levels.
So that's my disaggree for now.

 

[Scottycj256]

The scaling needs some work there and there, because like Superman other heroes aren't also very consistent in their power levels.
So that's my disaggree for now.

Disagree*

Minor spelling mistake i win

 

[Quantu]

Damn, big up to everyone involved in this. I personally feel an upgrade for DC Herald tiers has been deserved for a while. I agree with the premise of the OP.

 

[Stefano4444]

Spoiler: Tier 2

- Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
Assuming that each equally contribute to the feat, they would then downscale to Low 2-C instead of fully.

- Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe (War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991), with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)
For what i understand in the scans the threat Circe present wasn't due of her destructive power but because she was was able to manipulate everyone and trigger and entire war for her own purpose.

- Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
Qawsedf234 say this feats were performed in the 4th World, and this assuming those words were meant to be taken literally.

- Superman separates two worlds (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
I would like to see the contexy behind this feat.

- Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021), and could destroy them if he didn't like them (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)
For worlds he could have meant for just information/data about all those realities, instead to entire universes.

- Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
Even if he was able to briefly fight TT he was still defeat and overpower, i don't think we can scale him.

- Superman punches out Barbatos (Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
This was Barbatos who had been defeated and imprisoned, doesn't seen like he was at full power at this moment.

 

[Vasco]

Definitely against scaling people like ******* Aquaman to 2-C because of this.

Saw it and immediately began to laugh its obvious I would be rejected, it dosen't sound right at all.

Timmy the villain Superman fought three times shouldn't be scaled to his full strength or whatever.

Villians that should scale to his full strength are Doomsday, Darkseid and Orion i'm pretty sure of, others are unlikely.

Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
Even if he was able to briefly fight TT

That's the point as shown in the scan supes was even overpowering him.

Superman punches out Barbatos (Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
This was Barbatos who had been defeated and imprisoned, doesn't seen like he was at full power at this moment.

The scan didn't say he was weakened as I checked.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

For Hourman stuff, I'll look through his runs later. Ig Amazo would scale but it's not like any hero scales to the stronger versions of Amazo.

Spoiler: Response to Qawsedf

The comic says the bracers explicitly block the blast, but deflecting them was her muscles. If you want to argue deflecting them should still count, sure. The the blast itself was only blocked due to her bracers.

Don't really feel like getting caught up in semantics here, if we agree she can deflect infinite power with her physical strength, we're good.

But they don't. They never fight their God form (consistently) without also being amped by a Boom Tube or when a 4th Worlder is shrunk by a Boom Tube. Feats performed in the 4th World only matter when they're in the 4th World as well.

To be clear, I am not saying in Universe Superman scales to 4th World Darkseid.
What I'm saying is that if 4th World Darkseid and Orion can destroy Higher Dimensional Universes, then in-Universe DS and Orion can destroy normal Universes. Supes can fight in-universe New Gods, and Clark amped proportionately to the Godsphere can fight 4th World New Gods.

I already explained why I don't think it's useable. Damage only exploded after Spectre finished pumping energy into him and it was after Damage was told he should only explode after getting enough energy.

And I addressed this. Doomsday Wars, written by the same writer Dan Jurgens, mostly attributes the feat to the heroes. Spectre only gave the last push, but even if he did a significant amount and gave like 80 percent, the heroes would still be contributing and therefore Low 2-C due to the nature of tier 2.
Also, it's questionable if Damage even got the full power of the heroes, since Waverider said he was slowly pumping the energy into him, but was confident that they would be able to give him the proper energy, and then Parallax interferes, seemingly pausing it for a second until Spectre finishes it.

I don't think this works, especially during this arc. When anti-sunlight also amped Clark. He used a light explosion to free Clark from min control. Its not really a feat for base Superman.

I don't think it amped Clark at all either, he literally looks like he's starting to crack and describes how horrible it is. I'm not sure what Clark being mind controlled as to do with anything, like sure he did that, but he also clearly hurt Supes in the process, he can hardly speak.

Flash outraces Death and results in running behind and past the Big Bang. The timeline reset of Zero Hour can be Low 2-C, but not the standard Big Bang in my view.

I don't mind this solution, but I also don't see what that scan proves, if anything it's saying the Big Bang is after the end of time.

I'm not talking about the Probes, I'm talking about Imperiex. Like with the Aegis, B13 was going to use Imperiex to infect reality and change the universe.

I know you're not saying the Probes do that, my point is that the Entropy Aegis is a probe changed with Apok technology. There's no reason to say it works like the Aegis, and if anything it just works like the Probes, which just shoot out entropy blasts.

I've countered addressed them. Like with Zero Hour I don't think they're useable.

Might just let the other's give their thoughts on this one if you think you've properly countered it, but I don't think him not being Universal in size really addresses the point, since the OP acknowledges that and explains why it's not relevant.

Because the story has moments like this or where the Red King is fluxing through dozens of different versions of himself. Plus the entire thing was a trick to just get the Red King into the hub world while they repower Doctor Destiney.

The only time he's fluxing through versions of himself is because of this moment in the last issue of the arc. I'm also not sure what him fluxing through versions of himself is supposed to prove, if it's that certain versions of him care for Diana and would hold back, that only really applies to Diana. If the point is that his power would change, that seems very unsubstantiated.

It wasn't a misread. The small form of Starbreaker (which is where the scaling comes from) is the hologram and not the real one. Once dropped they fight the real Starbreaker and besides Zatanna they don't do anything to him. The only Tier 2 thing I can vaguely see is Superman/Green Lantern for overpowering him, but it also happens in an arc where he needs to feed so he's not as maximum strength.

First off is that the version of Starbreaker in that issue is the one who just killed the guy holding the Universes together, so even if it is a hologram, it's the one they fight. Next is that all that's said is his visual didn't match his EM field, and then they saw the body he was actually taking. As I explained before, he's treated as and even called Starbreaker many times. It's not like it's a hologram that's there when real Starbreaker is off somewhere else, he was just showing them a form he wasn't actually in.

I think the Supes/GL thing is earlier in the arc than when he kills Dharma, so whether he's weakened or not, he'd still be above the one who accomplished that feat.

He was being overpowered regularly and had to rely on others to do anything notable to Mordru. Like I said I can get it being a durability feat, but I don't see it being much of an AP one.

Mordru implies that's because of his weakness to magic so that definitely plays a part in it. He had some help sure but it's still clear he was hurting him if he had him "spitting up teeth".

Spoiler: Response to Stefano

- Circe was consistently stated to be an urgent threat to the entire Universe (War of the Gods Vol. 1 #4, December 1991), with it later being stated she nearly destroyed the Universe (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #62, February 1992)
For what i understand in the scans the threat Circe present wasn't due of her destructive power but because she was was able to manipulate everyone and trigger and entire war for her own purpose.

I'll let Tracer handle this one because he's the one who suggested this to be added, though I will mention in the last scan it implies Diana saved the Universe by stopping one of Circe's attacks iirc

- Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
Qawsedf234 say this feats were performed in the 4th World, and this assuming those words were meant to be taken literally.

Sure, but explained the proportionate increases of how higher dimensions work in my response to Qaws above.

- Superman separates two worlds (Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
I would like to see the contexy behind this feat.

The citation is there. If you're wondering what's going on with the big and small Supes, the big one is normal Clark, the small one is another dimension's Clark.

- Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021), and could destroy them if he didn't like them(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)

For worlds he could have meant for just information/data about all those realities, instead to entire universes.

As mentioned, these worlds are realities, and when he talks about destroying them he specifically talks about burning them.

- Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
Even if he was able to briefly fight TT he was still defeat and overpower, i don't think we can scale him.

It's not a brief fight at all, it's a fight between two issues. I'm not sure if the imgur files have all the scans, but if you look through LO3W it's way longer. He hits him many times and takes a lot of attacks.

- Superman punches out Barbatos (Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
This was Barbatos who had been defeated and imprisoned, doesn't seen like he was at full power at this moment.

He's not stated to be weakened, he's just chained up, which wouldn't affect his durability.
Edit: As far as him being defeated goes, the comic he was chained up in was released May 2018. Supes punching him was November 2020. While time in comics obviously isn't irl time, there's so much stuff in between these events that I don't buy him being weakened from a previous loss at all.

As far as scaling goes, I 1000% agree we have to be careful who scales to who. However, I think it's better to discuss that after we've decided what feats are useable.

 

[Stefano4444]

The scan didn't say he was weakened as I checked.

Ok, lets say that he its still as strong as ever, those cains are still meant to hold Barbatos and stop him from using his full power, otherwise he would have free himself already.

That's the point as shown in the scan supes was even overpowering him.

Only for a brief moment, only to just smile at his face and continue to fight him and his allies.

 

[Scottycj256]

After this we should touch upon how to handle Boomtube amping, cuz its shown many times that Superman and others are capable of feats far beyond 2-C via Boomtube amping

 

[Vasco]

Ok, lets say that he its still as strong as ever, those cains are still meant to hold Barbatos and stop him from using his full power, otherwise he would have free himself already.

I don't see it stated anywhere they sealed his powers and especially his durability or is it just your headcanon?

Only for a brief moment, only to just smile at his face and continue to fight him and his allies.

Dosen't refute how the OP said he briefly fights Time Trapper and bonus overpowered him for sometime now tell me how can a lesser tier character briefly fights and overpowers a villian for certain moments and won't scale to the villian even Overpowering such a character says alot already than arguing he won't scale cause the villian began fighting him on-par later.

 

[Vasco]

He was being overpowered regularly and had to rely on others to do anything notable to Mordru. Like I said I can get it being a durability feat, but I don't see it being much of an AP one.

Dosen't superman durability scale to his striking strength/AP?

 

[LordTracer]

For what i understand in the scans the threat Circe present wasn't due of her destructive power but because she was was able to manipulate everyone and trigger and entire war for her own purpose.

Please explain how you came to that conclusion, because unless I’m missing something, nothing in the scans implies your interpretation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What I'm saying is that if 4th World Darkseid and Orion can destroy Higher Dimensional Universes, then in-Universe DS and Orion can destroy normal Universes.

Considering you're dealing with depowered avatars of other beings, I disagree. There's too much separation between true forms and what the heroes typically fight.

Also, it's questionable if Damage even got the full power of the heroes,

That's my point. He got bigger but it wasn't until Spectre pumped more into him that he actually exploded.

don't think it amped Clark at all either,

It did, Superman mentions that he would try to absorb anti-sunlight to survive the explosion and did. He was amped by both normal light and anti-light.

but I also don't see what that scan proves,

Flash ran far into the future until the Big Bang happened. Then once the Big Bang happened he kept running further into time until he could save his wife, meaning it existed in the same time loop.

As such the Big Bang and time are independent of each other. Since you can go forward or backward from it.

There's no reason to say it works like the Aegis,

My comparison wasn't that it was like the probes, but that like Imperiex people don't scale to the Low 2-C feat. The Aegis was designed to channel and control energy, as it did against Imperiex. Darkseid was going to use that to rewrite the universe, which isn't something that scales to its punching power.

First off is that the version of Starbreaker in that issue is the one who just killed the guy holding the Universes together,

Oh, it all came back now.

So that is Dharma. From the Dakatoverse. This is important because he himself is not holding these universes together. He controls the Rift who's power is what holds the universe together. The event World's Collide was about this topic. In fact the end of this comic literally mentions him controlling the Rift and using that power to hold Dakatoverse/DC together.

Killing Dharma is not a Tier 2 feat, because Dharma is not the one holding the universes together.

 

[Stefano4444]

Please explain how you came to that conclusion, because unless I’m missing something, nothing in the scans implies your interpretation.

We literally see Darkseid and Orion fight each other with their armies on Apokolips only to be interrupted by Highfather and Black Racer who say that everyone has been trick by Circe.

We then Circe try to stop Hippolyta (i think from making a counterspell to what Circe was doing) by firing a magic bolt, that Superman couldn't stop it, only to kill amazon oracle who shield the queen.

We then see gathering of many characters to rappresent their pantheons so to combine their strength to defeat Circe (who was using Hecate's power), Wonder Woman then utilize some kind of talisman to fight her off, and that's it.

In none of this scans give me the impression that Circe was going to destroy the universe with her sheer raw power alone.

And actually i just take a look at the plot of the storyline in question, and it looks like Circe was orchestrating entire wars between gods so to weaken them, and it looks like the destruction was mostly cause by the clash of gods and by her spells to amplify the destruction.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much to @Qawsedf234 and @Stefano4444 for taking the time to evaluate which of the listed feats that are reliable or not reliable to use above.

As I said earlier, I do not mind an upgrade in itself, but we should only use the genuinely reliable feats, and as Matthew said, we have to be very careful with deciding which characters that should scale to what afterwards.

 

[Firestorm808]

I really don’t see how that‘s a good idea. The premise of the thread covers the majority of DC characters, splitting it into multiple tiny threads with smaller groups of characters would just extend this unnecessarily.

As Emirp supplied, a separate Superman and GL thread would suffice. It's hard to keep track of what's been said in the replies.

 

[Hasty12345]

I share the same opinion as Matt and Ant, we can’t just scale all these characters to tier 2 without very explicit scaling to the strongest showings of the characters with the tier 2 feats.

 

[LordTracer]

We literally see Darkseid and Orion fight each other with their armies on Apokolips only to be interrupted by Highfather and Black Racer who say that everyone has been trick by Circe.

We then Circe try to stop Hippolyta (i think from making a counterspell to what Circe was doing) by firing a magic bolt, that Superman couldn't stop it, only to kill amazon oracle who shield the queen.

We then see gathering of many characters to rappresent their pantheons so to combine their strength to defeat Circe (who was using Hecate's power), Wonder Woman then utilize some kind of talisman to fight her off, and that's it.

In none of this scans give me the impression that Circe was going to destroy the universe with her sheer raw power alone.

This is like with the Olympus thing earlier, you’re pushing your interpretation when it‘s just not what the text implies.

Yes, Circe tricked everyone, that doesn’t mean they’re somehow responsible for the universe being destroyed.

Circe fires a bolt, to which Superman explicitly says that the universe is riding on him being able to stop it.

The Phantom Stranger directly says that Circe‘s doings will result in the negation of all creation.

All of the universe destroying statements are attributed to Circe. She’s the one that was going to destroy the universe, nobody else.

And actually i just take a look at the plot of the storyline in question, and it looks like Circe was orchestrating entire wars between gods so to weaken them, and it looks like the destruction was mostly cause by the clash of gods and by her spells to amplify the destruction.

As I actually read War of the Gods and didn’t just look at a summary on DC Wiki, the clash of the gods resulted in a catastrophe on Olympus, it wasn’t causing the destruction of the universe. Again, that was Circe’s doing.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

My big point of contention is the liberal scaling because Superman is known for being very variable with his power level. Definitely against scaling people like ******* Aquaman to 2-C because of this.

Hey man, the Aquaman disrespect has gone too far.

I'm in favor of at least High 3-A Aquaman. You all are doing him dirty.

 

[Vasco]

I don't see it stated anywhere they sealed his powers and especially his durability or is it just your headcanon?

Dosen't refute how the OP said he briefly fights Time Trapper and bonus overpowered him for sometime now tell me how can a lesser tier character briefly fights and overpowers a villian for certain moments and won't scale to the villian even Overpowering such a character says alot already than arguing he won't scale cause the villian began fighting him on-par later.

@Stefano4444 still waiting for your reply on this.

 

[Vasco]

Hey man, the Aquaman disrespect has gone too far.

I'm in favor of at least High 3-A Aquaman. You all are doing him dirty.

High 3-A Aquaman is still to much, he needs to have personal feat on that level than scaling to Wonder woman who might be holding back, he can reach High 3A by his trident but again I don't know how powerful it is.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

High 3-A Aquaman is still to much, he needs to have personal feat on that level than scaling to Wonder woman who might be holding back, he can reach High 3A by his trident but again I don't know how powerful it is.

Who might be holding back.
If he scales to Wonder Woman, he scales. I don't remember much about Post Crisis Wonder Woman, but I know she doesn't hold back as much as Supes does.
If Aquaman was able to fight against her in any margain he's not infinitely weaker.

 

[LordTracer]

I don't remember much about Post Crisis Wonder Woman, but I know she doesn't hold back as much as Supes does.

She does. Diana has said, more than once, that she considers herself a pacifist and abhors combat.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

All the 4-Bs are already 4-B because they're around Wonder Woman and Superman's full power
We're not touching the 5-Bs as far as I am aware.