DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

[PapiSavitar5025]

She does. Diana has said, more than once, that she considers herself a pacifist and abhors combat.

Really? Huh, alright then.
But do we have any justification for Wonder Woman suppressing herself that much for a fight against Aquaman?

 

[Firestorm808]

I guess we'll just make one at a time I suppose? Like we cover Superman, then Green Lantern, then the rest.

I think only Supes and the GLs should get their own respective threads since most of the feats come from them.

I'm good with this. All the leftover feats can be discussed on this thread.

 

[Hellbeast]

Doesn't Arthur also have scaling to other characters who hold back less

 

[Qawsedf234]

scaling to other characters who hold back less

Not consistently. Which is why it's still only a at most rating.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Really? Huh, alright then.
But do we have any justification for Wonder Woman suppressing herself that much for a fight against Aquaman?

They’re normally comrades aren’t they? Seems unlikely that Diana would try her hardest to kill him unless context supports that.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

They’re normally comrades aren’t they? Seems unlikely that Diana would try her hardest to kill him unless context supports that.

I'm not saying she'd try her hardest, but I'm arguing against Diana holding back an infinite amount to fight Arthur.

 

[Vasco]

Doesn't Arthur also have scaling to other characters who hold back less

If batman were on their level physically then it would be possible dude dosen't even hold back against his closest friend in the league (Superman)

I'm not saying she'd try her hardest, but I'm arguing against Diana holding back an infinite amount to fight Arthur.

It's possible if you look at DB and Marvel profiles not all characters scale to goku and vegeta same with Thor and hulk.

 

[Stefano4444]

Circe fires a bolt, to which Superman explicitly says that the universe is riding on him being able to stop it.

Because it was going to kill Hippolyta, not because it was going to destroy the universe.

The Phantom Stranger directly says that Circe‘s doings will result in the negation of all creation.

Was due of her raw power or because she had entire pantheons of powerful gods fight each other and causing havoc in the universe? Pretty sure its the latter.

All of the universe destroying statements are attributed to Circe. She’s the one that was going to destroy the universe, nobody else.

Because by making the gods fight each other she was able to **** the universe, she didn't do it with her strength alone.

 

[Stefano4444]

Dosen't refute how the OP said he briefly fights Time Trapper and bonus overpowered him for sometime now tell me how can a lesser tier character briefly fights and overpowers a villian for certain moments and won't scale to the villian even Overpowering such a character says alot already than arguing he won't scale cause the villian began fighting him on-par later.

I still not fully sold in the idea to make him and TT comparable, he was still losing the fight and it was necessary the power of the entire Legion of Superheroes to put him down momentarily, at best he downscale but i do not believe that he should fully scale.

 

[Vasco]

I still not fully sold in the idea to make him and TT comparable, he was still losing the fight and it was necessary the power of the entire Legion of Superheroes to put him down momentarily, at best he downscale but i do not believe that he should fully scale.

*Your first scan literally shows superman draws blood from him with a punch and overpowering him that itself is enough.
*Second scan shows him tanking a hit from time Trapper that's a durability feat it's called a Fight

You're scan legit supports the OP point of superman briefly fighting the time Trapper.

The Fact he could Damage,Draw blood and Overpower a Villian though momentarily is enough saying other characters later came to help dosen't refute anything.

From the attack potency page:

A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces.

The fact Superman damaged and drew blood for him is enough talk more of Overpowering him for sometime.

Now onto the Topic of Barbados.

 

[LordTracer]

Was due of her raw power or because she had entire pantheons of powerful gods fight each other and causing havoc in the universe? Pretty sure its the latter.

No, the Roman and Greek gods fighting in New Olympus is not what caused the near destruction of the universe. You being “pretty sure it’s the latter” doesn’t mean a whole lot when you haven’t even read the comic.

Because by making the gods fight each other she was able to **** the universe, she didn't do it with her strength alone.

Again, that’s not what happened. Even by reading the summary on DC wiki that you’re getting all your info from, literally nothing says that the battle between the Greek and Roman gods is what caused the near destruction of the universe. The destruction was still going to happen even after the gods stopped fighting each other. Stop making claims that are unsupported by the text, especially when you haven’t actually read the comic.

 

[Qawsedf234]

• Superman (Kingdom Come) - Universe level+, maybe Low Multiverse level. Is actually weaker than PC Clark, but can be scaled to Power Girl

I'd actually want to know the reason for this claim here.

Also, reading through the scaling claims their current conditions do not work. The bulk of these characters have never had Superman go full force on them or would scale to Superman going at them full tilt (for example under no means is Livewire Tier 2).

 

[LordTracer]

for example under no means is Livewire Tier 2

Livewire doesn’t scale normally, she‘s a 5-A normally. She would only scale with absorption, and that’s mainly because she matched Blue Beetle.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Noice

 

[Qawsedf234]

She would only scale with absorption, and that’s mainly because she matched Blue Beetle.

Blue Beetle I also find iffy scaling to Tier 2. He was completely overwhelmed by Guy and has no reason to have a universal rating.

 

[LordTracer]

Blue Beetle I also find iffy scaling to Tier 2. He was completely overwhelmed by Guy and has no reason to have a universal rating.

He did block an attack from a Guy that’s explicitly trying to kill him, so I wouldn’t say he’s being completely overwhelmed. At the very least, he should be able to scale with shields.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He did block an attack from a Guy that’s explicitly trying to kill him

He took one from a Berserk Guy, got over powered right after and was going to have a drill smash him to pieces. It's not good scaling evidence in my view.

 

[LordTracer]

He took one from a Berserk Guy, got over powered right after and was going to have a drill smash him to pieces. It's not good scaling evidence in my view.

Not for AP, no, but it’s pretty blatant for his durability.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

In my view he should downscale. He survived three attacks from someone explicitly trying to kill. He’s weaker but saying he’s infinitely weaker seems like a stretch.

 

[Qawsedf234]

from someone explicitly trying to kill.

Does he have any other showings besides almost dying to Guy?

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Considering you're dealing with depowered avatars of other beings, I disagree. There's too much separation between true forms and what the heroes typically fight.

I'm confused here. I'm not saying Supes should scale to Godhead Darkseid. What I'm saying is this. The state of the gods is dependent on the reality they're in. If they're in the Universe, they're 3D, if they're in the Godsphere, they're 5D. So, if New Gods can destroy these higher dimensional Universes, when they get nerfed proportionately to go to the Universe, they should be capable of destroying normal Universes. We see this with how Superman can fight in-Universe Darkseid, and then when Clark gets amped to go to the Godsphere, he's on par with Apok Darkseid. So as has been the point my whole time, the change in dimensionality would be proportional to the change in power.

That's my point. He got bigger but it wasn't until Spectre pumped more into him that he actually exploded.

If the heroes energy for the Big Bang was enough (as Waverider was confident) and they're mainly credited (speaking of that, I'm still not sure why you're disregarding the DDW statement), it's likely Spectre gave the last bit the heroes could've given had Parallax not interfered.
But again, even if Spectre gave 90% of the energy, the heroes would still have to be giving a portion, and a portion of Low 2-C is still 2-C.

It did, Superman mentions that he would try to absorb anti-sunlight to survive the explosion and did. He was amped by both normal light and anti-light.

Just because he can absorb it doesn't mean it amps him, Clark can also absorb Red Solar Radiation. We even literally see it harm him in both cases, it's literally anti-sunlight, the opposite of the thing that gives him powers.

Flash ran far into the future until the Big Bang happened. Then once the Big Bang happened he kept running further into time until he could save his wife, meaning it existed in the same time loop.

As such the Big Bang and time are independent of each other. Since you can go forward or backward from it.

I don't think this proves that the Big Bang doesn't create time. If anything, before the Big Bang, it's said they're literally running out of time and at the end of time. I'm not even sure if he's running through time at this point anyways, at this point he's trying to get back into the Speed Force.

IMy comparison wasn't that it was like the probes, but that like Imperiex people don't scale to the Low 2-C feat. The Aegis was designed to channel and control energy, as it did against Imperiex. Darkseid was going to use that to rewrite the universe, which isn't something that scales to its punching power.

Yeah, I know your point isn't that they're like the Probes. My point is that they're like the Probes, because it's literally a reprogrammed Probe, there's no reason say it acts like Imperiex Prime.

Oh, it all came back now.

So that is Dharma. From the Dakatoverse. This is important because he himself is not holding these universes together. He controls the Rift who's power is what holds the universe together. The event World's Collide was about this topic. In fact the end of this comic literally mentions him controlling the Rift and using that power to hold Dakatoverse/DC together.

Killing Dharma is not a Tier 2 feat, because Dharma is not the one holding the universes together.

What? Nothing you said here is mutually exclusive, like yeah, he is controlling the rift. That is the power he has in this arc, the power he was using to merge and hold the Universes together, and the power that still lost to Starbreaker.

I'd actually want to know the reason for this claim here.

Essentially the argument is that PC Superman was beating up Earth-One Gog until he was weakened, and Earth One Gog defeated KC Clark when he had help. There's also the Leatherjacket Superboy vs KC Supes fight from Convergence, where they fought for like an hour. KC Clark's scales aren't too strong, since it's him punching off-guard PC Supes when they're near Kryptonite with PC being fine after, and scaling with Hercules, someone weaker than Diana early on. I'd rather save all these scaling discussions for later though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So, if New Gods can destroy these higher dimensional Universes, when they get nerfed proportionately to go to the Universe, they should be capable of destroying normal Universes.

They get nerfed by an infinite amount by shrinking down to the real universe. That nerf means in no one can you scale them to the 4th world forms or scale them back in a way that implies a universal showing.

They are good feats, but they're not feats non-boom tube heroes scale too.

But again, even if Spectre gave 90% of the energy, the heroes would still have to be giving a portion, and a portion of Low 2-C is still 2-C.

Damage didn't explode until Spectre pumped it into him and his size expanded as well. The energy they contributed doesn't mean anything in my view. Scaling Kyle to it is fine, but I'm not seeing the power output being valid.

. We even literally see it harm him in both cases

That doesn't work at all in context. Superman says outright he can absorb sunlight so he'll try anti-sunlight and it works. A being working for the God of Light blasted Superman with light. It shows that Superman's power absorption works on 4D things, but blasting someone with energy that makes them stronger isn't a durability feat.

at the end of time.

Which then loops back to the beginning of time

there's no reason say it acts like Imperiex Prime.

Again, I was using it as a comparison. Like how no one scales to Imperiex Prime's self-detonation when connected to B13, no one scales to that aspect of the Aegis.

I was not saying they were the same thing.

I was making a comparison that both are examples of something that doesn't scale to AP.

What? Nothing you said here is mutually exclusive, like yeah, he is controlling the rift.

The Rift is a person who is in a permeant state of slumber. He's using his power to fuse the worlds and isn't actively holding it back himself.

Its not a AP feat he would scale to.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

They get nerfed by an infinite amount by shrinking down to the real universe. That nerf means in no one can you scale them to the 4th world forms or scale them back in a way that implies a universal showing.

I'm literally saying Darkseid gets infinitely weaker (from Tier 1 to Tier 2), but proportionate to the Dimension he's in, so if Higher D Darkseid can destroy Higher D Universes, normal Darkseid can destroy normal ones. I even just displayed that with how Clark's fights with Darkseid's go.

Damage didn't explode until Spectre pumped it into him and his size expanded as well. The energy they contributed doesn't mean anything in my view. Scaling Kyle to it is fine, but I'm not seeing the power output being valid.

Yeah, I know he didn't explode until Spectre pumped energy into him. They still gave enough energy to be the main ones credited, and Waverider was confident they had enough energy with the heroes alone, with the reason he didn't get all of that being Parallax's interference, which I already said.

That doesn't work at all in context. Superman says outright he can absorb sunlight so he'll try anti-sunlight and it works. A being working for the God of Light blasted Superman with light. It shows that Superman's power absorption works on 4D things, but blasting someone with energy that makes them stronger isn't a durability feat.

I agree he can absorb anti-sunlight. But what I'm saying is it's like how he absorbs red solar radiation.
And again, we literally see Superman struggling to talk after getting hit by Aztek, and his scan literally starts to crack as he groans and describes how horrible the anti-sunlight is. I don't even get how the latter is an argument, it's literally anti-sunlight, the opposite of his power source.

Which then loops back to the beginning of time

...Because of the Big Bang happening

Again, I was using it as a comparison. Like how no one scales to Imperiex Prime's self-detonation when connected to B13, no one scales to that aspect of the Aegis.
I was not saying they were the same thing.
I was making a comparison that both are examples of something that doesn't scale to AP.

And what I'm saying is the comparison to Imperiex Prime is unsubstantiated because he's basically just an amped Imperiex Probe. All Probes do is shoot out entropy, there's no reason to say Entropy Aegis' works like that, that's a random assumption.

The Rift is a person who is in a permeant state of slumber. He's using his power to fuse the worlds and isn't actively holding it back himself.
Its not a AP feat he would scale to.

I this means it doesn't correlate to AP. Yeah, I know who the Rift is, and yeah, I know Dharma was using his power. That's the version of Dharma Starbreaker fought. Also, wdym by "isn't holding it back himself"? Holding the Universes together? If so, he was.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm literally saying Darkseid gets infinitely weaker (from Tier 1 to Tier 2), but proportionate to the Dimension he's in, so if Higher D Darkseid can destroy Higher D Universes, normal Darkseid can destroy normal ones

But you're not scaling correctly. Darkseid not only as aspects in the 4th world, but those aspects are further nerfed when going through a boom tube. Let alone other New Gods with similar issues. What they do cannot be downscaled.

Waverider was confident they had enough energy with the heroes alone,

The only time he exploded was after Spectre dumped energy into him and he notes it as being a notable amount of energy. I don't see them scaling.

And again, we literally see Superman struggling to talk after getting hit by Aztek,

Aztek broke Superman free of his mind control and allowed Superman to shatter his shackles. Being hit by something that amps you isn't a good durability feat, especially when right after he's shown to be able to absorb other forms of esoteric light radiation.

...Because of the Big Bang happening

Because he ran to the Big Bang and then ran after the Big Bang and both events happened, that means they share one timeline.

Which is High 3-A.

And what I'm saying is the comparison to Imperiex Prime is unsubstantiated

You're just not getting the comparison.

The Aegis was made to channel energy, such as time and space altering energy to change the universe. Darkseid was planning on using that ability to rewrite reality. Its not something someone scales to by just punching hard.

Also, wdym by "isn't holding it back himself"?

Dharma is not holding back the universes with his own strength, as the story itself stated.

Dharma is mentally controlling the person who is actively fusing those two universes. Killing Dharma means nothing, as all Dharma was doing was telling a dreaming kid "Fuse the two universes". When he died, the command telling the kid "Fuse the two universes" stopped being transmitted. Which is what Icon was talking about.

Holding the Universes together? If so, he was.

Rift was, not Dharma. Dharma does not scale to Rift.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

At this point, this is probably my last response, cuz I feel like we're going in circles. If your next response has some game-changing arguments, I'll respond again.

But you're not scaling correctly. Darkseid not only as aspects in the 4th world, but those aspects are further nerfed when going through a boom tube. Let alone other New Gods with similar issues. What they do cannot be downscaled.

I don't think Darkseid using aspects in the 4th World is relevant, since those would be the ones performing the feats in the OP.
This also still doesn't address the logic I gave for why HD characters downscaling in-Universe proportionately.

The only time he exploded was after Spectre dumped energy into him and he notes it as being a notable amount of energy. I don't see them scaling.

I know he exploded after the Spectre, stuff, I addressed that. Aand again, it's attributed to the 4 heroes mainly in a comic written by Dan Jurgens, who wrote Zero Hour. I don't see a way around this.

Aztek broke Superman free of his mind control and allowed Superman to shatter his shackles. Being hit by something that amps you isn't a good durability feat, especially when right after he's shown to be able to absorb other forms of esoteric light radiation.

I'm disagreeing on if it amps him though, and you still haven't given reasons the light amps him. It's not like it's sunlight, and we've literally seen Supes get hurt by light-based attacks from Doctor Light (Justice League of America #14).

Because he ran to the Big Bang and then ran after the Big Bang and both events happened, that means they share one timeline.

Which is High 3-A.

I addressed him probably not even running through time here, as he was trying to get into the speed force. I think the fact time literally ended and only came back when the Big Bang happened would support the Big Bang creating time.

You're just not getting the comparison.

The Aegis was made to channel energy, such as time and space altering energy to change the universe. Darkseid was planning on using that ability to rewrite reality. Its not something someone scales to by just punching hard.

As I've been saying, this comparison is unsubstantiated. He is just a reprogrammed Imperiex Probe, and while he does channel entropy, there's no reason to say this is anything other than AP. I don't think it's ever stated or implied the Aegis can rewrite timelines in this sort of sense, so this just seems arbitrary.

Dharma is not holding back the universes with his own strength, as the story itself stated.

Dharma is mentally controlling the person who is actively fusing those two universes. Killing Dharma means nothing, as all Dharma was doing was telling a dreaming kid "Fuse the two universes". When he died, the command telling the kid "Fuse the two universes" stopped being transmitted. Which is what Icon was talking about.

Rift was, not Dharma. Dharma does not scale to Rift.

He wasn't mentally controlling him, he tapped into the power source, and as we see in the bottom left panel, he was merging the Universes himself, and in the bottom right panel he says, and I quote, "I hold it all together with Rift's creative energy and the force of my will".

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not seeing the other stuff going anywhere so I'll only respond to this.

"I hold it all together with Rift's creative energy and the force of my will"

Exactly. His will is controlling the Rift. The actual power of combining the universes is the Rift. This is important because the Rift when awake and not under his control already fused the two universes together. After the Rift was put to sleep, Dharma had him keep up the universal fusion so that their universe wouldn't have been destroyed by Darkseid.

This is not a AP feat Dharma or Starbreaker scale to. This is the Rift and they don't scale to the Rift's power.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Exactly. His will is controlling the Rift. The actual power of combining the universes is the Rift. This is important because the Rift when awake and not under his control already fused the two universes together. After the Rift was put to sleep, Dharma had him keep up the universal fusion so that their universe wouldn't have been destroyed by Darkseid.

This is not a AP feat Dharma or Starbreaker scale to. This is the Rift and they don't scale to the Rift's power.

That's not him saying he mind controlled the Rift. It's saying he used the Rift's power and his own force of will, not that he used his will to control Rift's power. The power merging the Universes was Rift's, but Rift's being used by Dharma (the same Dharma Starbreaker defeated), as, and I cannot stress this enough, Dharma is shown on panel merging the Universes himself.

This one is definitely my last response on this topic, but just to get the tally straight, your current stance is that Tier 2 at peak for certain characters is fine, but the scaling has to be treated carefully, right?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Should I go through with Firestorm's suggestion for the sake of cohesiveness.

Also I'll probably sort the list for feats that:

- Rejected
- In discussion
- Accepted

 

[Qawsedf234]

Dharma is shown on panel merging the Universes himself.

Dharma is using the Rift's power to merge the universe. The scan is a representation of what he's doing with the Rift. Before you come and say that's just wrong, note that its referencing a scene of the Rift literally doing this feat when its awake.

Dharma does not have the power to do this. He is controlling a sleeping being that has the power to do this.

your current stance is that Tier 2 at peak for certain characters is fine, but the scaling has to be treated carefully, right?

Yes. We should treat it like how we treat Thor scaling. Not everyone, even if they've fought Superman before, should scale to Tier 2. Especially when the bulk of these heroes will hold back to the point where they'll kill themselves at times.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Should I go through with Firestorm's suggestion for the sake of cohesiveness.

Also I'll probably sort the list for feats that:

- Rejected
- In discussion
- Accepted

I finished sorting

 

[Firestorm808]

Should I go through with Firestorm's suggestion for the sake of cohesiveness.

Also I'll probably sort the list for feats that:

- Rejected
- In discussion
- Accepted

I recommend that we make the separate threads for cohesiveness.

 

[Firestorm808]

I finished sorting

The Flodo Span feat is still in discussion. I don't think anyone replied to my post regarding it not being a physical feat.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-the-legendary-dc-heralds-upgrade.147343/post-5366716

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Flodo Span feat is still in discussion. I don't think anyone replied to my post regarding it not being a physical feat.

That's pretty well constructed. So yeah, I don't think using it is a good idea then.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/superman-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147384/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/green-lantern-universal-feats-discussion-continuation.147385/

Here.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I also updated the OP.

Anything that isn't under Superman or Green Lantern will be discussed in this thread.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

I also updated the OP.

Anything that isn't under Superman or Green Lantern will be discussed in this thread.

Aquaman. Where's he gonna fall under?
What's the King of the Sea's best feats?

 

[LordTracer]

Aquaman. Where's he gonna fall under?
What's the King of the Sea's best feats?

Scaling discussion comes after the feat discussion.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Ah, alrighty then.

 

[Vondoom]

This is a Hal Jordan being mind controlled in thinking superman was being possessed by parallax, After a battle between the both superman knocks him back to his senses, This scan shows both are comparable, Since Superman said he held back so he wouldn't break his head and also saying he'd hate to be hit by Hal Jordan in his right senses.
Shouldn't this prove both are comparable to each other?

Superman took some hit several panels back but it can be argued both were holding back so they wouldn't harm each other bodies seriously.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

This is a Hal Jordan being mind controlled in thinking superman was being possessed by parallax, After a battle between the both superman knocks him back to his senses, This scan shows both are comparable, Since Superman said he held back so he wouldn't break his head and also saying he'd hate to be hit by Hal Jordan in his right senses.
Shouldn't this prove both are comparable to each other?

Scaling comes later.