Busoshoku Haki Huge Addition

[LordGinSama]

That's the point, it's not Power Null otherwise they'd be able to do exactly everything you just listed with Haki.

 

[Kurifesilon]

Tama's fruit is the weakness to Zoans.

I don’t think tama has ever tamed a real zoan user.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I agree with everything except the Elemantal Resistances, that im neutral on.

 

[SamanPatou]

This is extremely weird and situational, but after skimming through some replies, I agree with Damage.

 

[Damage3245]

That's the point, it's not Power Null otherwise they'd be able to do exactly everything you just listed with Haki.

Different types/levels of power null.

Which is why I mentioned that in context, Rayleigh is talking about bypassing certain Devil Fruits defensives (Logia intangibility being chief on the list). Not that he is talking about negating or nullifying all Devil Fruit abilities.

 

[KingTempest]

I still don't believe it's just logias and body changing paramecias.

Because where would random spacial manipulation come out of it? It would make no sense for that to be the case.

 

[KingTempest]

I don’t think tama has ever tamed a real zoan user.

Most likely she would be able to if she can tame real animals and fake fake animals

 

[Kurifesilon]

Different types/levels of power null.

Which is why I mentioned that in context, Rayleigh is talking about bypassing certain Devil Fruits defensives (Logia intangibility being chief on the list). Not that he is talking about negating or nullifying all Devil Fruit abilities.

So i get that you don’t agree with paramecia abilites being resisted. But you also believe that elements shouldn’t be resisted?

 

[KingTempest]

We have proof of 2 (possibly 3 in the OP) Paramecia abilities being resisted. I'm gonna need much more proof that we shouldn't just give Haki resistances to all tangible paramecia abilities especially with the statement.

All because Rayleigh spoke about Logias doesn't mean that it's the only thing resisted. He said "devil fruit abilities", not "body changing abilities".

All I'm seeing now is "I think it's this, and he said this, so it's only this" when there's proof of otherwise.

 

[Damage3245]

All because Rayleigh spoke about Logias doesn't mean that it's the only thing resisted.

I think resistance is the wrong word (and that wasn't what I was asserting anyway. I never said it only affects Logias).

Haki, as a durability-enhancing forcefield, is going to let you withstand more than you would without it. But we don't grant forcefields specific "resistances" for every type of ability they've been shown to work against.

What are the other Paramecia abilities being resisted against?

 

[KingTempest]

I think resistance is the wrong word (and that wasn't what I was asserting anyway. I never said it only affects Logias).

Haki, as a durability-enhancing forcefield, is going to let you withstand more than you would without it. But we don't grant forcefields specific "resistances" for every type of ability they've been shown to work against.

This Haki as a dura enhancing forcefield needs to go.
Advanced Armament is referred as a forcefield. Rayleigh was probably referring to the advanced portion, which is why he says invisible armor, like what is seen here. This connects with what Rayleigh was referring to. This forcefield example is a huge issue.

So why is regular Haki, which has never shown a forcefield or barrier to the same extent that we see in Wano, being used as the counter?

What are the other Paramecia abilities being resisted against?

I meant to say nullified.
Luffy's and Daz's

 

[KingTempest]

I'd gladly drop Forcefield Creation for regular Buso if it means giving Haki the rightful resistances.

 

[Damage3245]

So why is regular Haki, which has never shown a forcefield or barrier to the same extent that we see in Wano, being used as the counter?

Both versions are a "forcefield". The one we see demonstrated repeatedly in Wano is just the forcefield being extended out further than the user's own body/weapon.

 

[Kurifesilon]

as a durability-enhancing forcefield, is going to let you withstand more than you would without it. But we don't grant forcefields specific "resistances" for every type of ability they've been shown to work against.

I’m guessing you don’t give specific resistances for characters that use it because generally the durability of their body is not in in use, just the durability of the forcefield.

But using your own words, it is a durability-enhacing forcefield, which means the users durability is in use, this means that resistances should applied.

 

[KingTempest]

Both versions are a "forcefield". The one we see demonstrated repeatedly in Wano is just the forcefield being extended out further than the user's own body/weapon.

The fact that Hyo refers to that one as "an invisible armor" and Rayleigh refers to his own as "an invisible armor" while seeing the aura around both pre and post timeskip, while hardening Buso is clearly not invisible says otherwise.

 

[joshpiece]

This whole force field stuff is weird.

 

[KingTempest]

The force field is prohibiting resistances.

Said forcefield is only shown with advanced haki.

They should get the resistances to the DF abilities and call it a day. Anything else is just picking out what's convenient.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it's a way bigger stretch to say that Haki users have resistance to every DF ability.

The reason why Luffy shouldn't get resistance to poison from the Shinokuni feat isn't because the poison touched him and he was unaffected, it's because it couldn't touch him through the Haki covering him.

It's no different than if a forcefield user put up a barrier between them and the poison gas. We don't give "Resistance to Poison" for feats like that.

I don't see how this is picking out what's convenient.

 

[KingTempest]

I think it's a way bigger stretch to say that Haki users have resistance to every DF ability.

Obviously not every single one (Brook's fruit, how do you resist that? Same with Zoans and others), but the ones where it makes sense (I have better haki than you, this won't work). Simple.

The reason why Luffy shouldn't get resistance to poison from the Shinokuni feat isn't because the poison touched him and he was unaffected, it's because it couldn't touch him through the Haki covering him.

Notice this line

The reason why Luffy shouldn't get resistance to poison from the Shinokuni feat isn't because the poison touched him and he was unaffected, it's because it couldn't touch him through the Haki covering him.

We're not giving Luffy the Shinokuni resistance, we're giving it to the Haki. The shinokuni penetrates the body of the person and gets in their system. It didn't even penetrate His Haki, it just fell off.
I'm saying that tangible poison and such should not be able to get through armament haki, which is via feats.

It's no different than if a forcefield user put up a barrier between them and the poison gas. We don't give "Resistance to Poison" for feats like that.

This regular haki is not a forcefield, that should have never been applied. Haki is armor, yes, but saying it's a forcefield is just completely blocking how it works. It's an enhancer. When people make black blades, are they putting permanent forcefields around weapons? Did Vergo hit Smoker and Law with a forcefield around his Bamboo stick? No.

Rayleigh did not say "it is an invisible suit of armor", he said 'it is like an invisible suit of armor", which is a simile, which is figurative speech, which is not taken to be literal. It's stated to be that because it enhances dura and AP, it does not put a barrier around it unless it's advanced.
When they push Haki into people's bodies are they pushing a forcefield through their body? Are they putting forcefields through the metal collars? No.

Haki is everything but a force field, and with that, Haki resists certain things. Haki should not get power null because that's not how it works, it shouldn't getting forcefield creation in any state outside of it's advanced form.

The fact that Hyo refers to that one as "an invisible armor" and Rayleigh refers to his own as "an invisible armor" while seeing the aura around both pre and post timeskip, while hardening Buso is clearly not invisible says otherwise.

These are my views on the "invisible armor". It's for the advanced.

I don't see how this is picking out what's convenient.

Because Rayleigh says that Haki is the perfect counter to devil fruit abilities, yet we're giving it to only Logias and Body Changing Paramecias.
I can not find a translation that says anything other than devil fruit abilities/users.

Perfect counter to devil fruit abilities means 3 things.
It resists it.
It nullifies it.
It blocks it out.

It clearly doesn't nullify it. You can't be "durable" enough to resist dura neg. It's resistance.

 

[Damage3245]

Because Rayleigh says that Haki is the perfect counter to devil fruit abilities, yet we're giving it to only Logias and Body Changing Paramecias.

That's not what he says at all.

I don't agree with your interpretation here. I have no issues with Haki being treated as a forcefield. I don't know why you'd assume that poisonous gas could permeate Haki in the first place.

It's stated to be that because it enhances dura and AP, it does not put a barrier around it unless it's advanced.

I don't know how you can get this to mean that there is zero forcefield usage involved here. Luffy is saying that Cracker's Haki is harder than anyone elses he's faced before. How does this mean "Cracker isn't using a forcefield"?

 

[KingTempest]

That's not what he says at all.

I don't agree with your interpretation here. I have no issues with Haki being treated as a forcefield. I don't know why you'd assume that poisonous gas could permeate Haki in the first place.

Damage.
My point is that it does NOT permeate Haki, which is why it should resist it.

I don't know how you can get this to mean that there is zero forcefield usage involved here. Luffy is saying that Cracker's Haki is harder than anyone elses he's faced before. How does this mean "Cracker isn't using a forcefield"?

Imbued.

Imbue: inspire or permeate with (a feeling or quality).
Permeate: spread throughout (something); pervade.
Pervade: (especially of a smell) spread through and be perceived in every part of.
Similar words to pervade: Permeate, Fill, Suffuse.

Other translations say infuse.

We don't need the definition of infuse.

It means the haki is enhancing his natural dura, and that haki is stronger than what he's seen before.

 

[KingTempest]

Gomu Gomu is inversely immune to physical attacks, Haki stops it.
Supa Supa is inversely immune to physical attacks, Haki stops it.
Tori Tori no Mi, Model: Phoenix regenerates from attacks, Haki stops it.
Ope Ope cuts through people via spacial manip and durability negation, Haki stops it.
People hypothesized that Doflamingo's resistances to heat and cold are from the Haki. That is not confirmed, and I am begging that this sentence doesn't get picked out of everything I just said so people can say "prove it".

Haki is the counter to devil fruits. This is not my statement, this is Rayleigh's. If it's an attack, it resists. If it's a resistance, it negates it. That is the point.

We don't need to be overly cautious. If we get something different in the future, oh well, we can change it.
If not, what can be picked up by Occam's Razor (they get resisted) is what we'll work off of.

 

[Damage3245]

Gomu Gomu is inversely immune to physical attacks, Haki stops it.

We accept that. It is part of the negation that Devil Fruit defenses, as covered by Rayleigh's explanation.

Supa Supa is inversely immune to physical attacks, Haki stops it.

I don't think we accept that he's actually immune to physical attacks. His body is only made out of steel swords after all. It's possible that just being strong enough is enough to cut through it (strong enough to cut through steel as I think it is mentioned in the series).

Tori Tori no Mi, Model: Phoenix regenerates from attacks, Haki stops it.

I don't think there's any major counter-arguments to this. Only, doesn't Kizaru shoot him with a bunch of lasers and fail to permanently damage him? Unless Kizaru just wasn't using Haki on his lasers because he can't or just didn't for some reason.

Ope Ope cuts through people via spacial manip and durability negation, Haki stops it.

This one is only a possibility in my view right now. We don't have undeniable instances of feats for it. Only non-proven statements so far.

People hypothesized that Doflamingo's resistances to heat and cold are from the Haki. That is not confirmed, and I am begging that this sentence doesn't get picked out of everything I just said so people can say "prove it".

Since you agree it's not confirmed, I won't address this one.

Haki is the counter to devil fruits. This is not my statement, this is Rayleigh's. If it's an attack, it resists. If it's a resistance, it negates it. That is the point.

Haki is the counter to certain Devil Fruit defenses, without needing to rely on user those Devil Fruits specific weaknesses. That is what I believe from Rayleigh's words and the context of his speech.

We don't need to be overly cautious. If we get something different in the future, oh well, we can change it.

You say we're being overly cautious, I say you're being overly speculative by saying that Haki gives users resistance to every single offensive Devil Fruit ability in the verse.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I agree with Damage3245

 

[Elizhaa]

From what I read, I agree with Damage3245's points.

So what if we update the Armamament Haki part of the page to put it as "Limited Power Nullification (Can negate certain Devil Fruit abilities, giving Limited Elemental Intangibility Negation, and possibly resistance to certain Devil Fruit powers such Law's spatial manipulation, etc)".

I would be fine with such additions.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't think we accept that he's actually immune to physical attacks. His body is only made out of steel swords after all. It's possible that just being strong enough is enough to cut through it (strong enough to cut through steel as I think it is mentioned in the series).

That was mentioned by Zoro, then he used Haki and broke through.
He blocked a cut from High 7-A Mihawk while he's probably Low 7-C at best from whatever feats he has.

I don't think there's any major counter-arguments to this. Only, doesn't Kizaru shoot him with a bunch of lasers and fail to permanently damage him? Unless Kizaru just wasn't using Haki on his lasers because he can't or just didn't for some reason.

Idk if you can apply Haki to Danmaku, that's a waste of Haki.

This one is only a possibility in my view right now. We don't have undeniable instances of feats for it. Only non-proven statements so far.

A statement by
A. Smoker, who was potentially taught by Garp, a primarily Haki based fighter.
B. Doflamingo, who has studied the Ope Ope no Mi (from the statement WE KNOW ALL ABOUT YOUR POWERS, also his knowledge gathering on it), superior to Vergo (someone with incredible Haki), yea I'm almost 1000% sure that Doflamingo is a beautiful source for this. Doflamingo's statement shouldn't need extre proof since he researched the fruit.
Unproven statement ≠ non-applicable statement.
It's a statement that WB's the strongest man in the world. We can't prove it since he hasn't been shown to fight anyone else else except Roger and Oden. Is WB not the strongest now?

Haki is the counter to certain Devil Fruit defenses, without needing to rely on user those Devil Fruits specific weaknesses. That is what I believe from Rayleigh's words and the context of his speech.

The context of his speech is that "hey, this is something called Armament Haki. I'm going to teach you how to use it in the future. Look at this, now let me explain more".
I don't know how you picked up "Devil fruit defenses" from "Counter measure to devil fruit abilities".

You say we're being overly cautious, I say you're being overly speculative by saying that Haki gives users resistance to every single offensive Devil Fruit ability in the verse.

Obviously not every single one (Brook's fruit, how do you resist that? Same with Zoans and others), but the ones where it makes sense (I have better haki than you, this won't work). Simple.

 

[KingTempest]

If we decide on power nullification, alright, just don't make it specific to DF abilities.

 

[LordGinSama]

I vehemently disagree with it being power null, we have direct statements from the Manga outright saying Haki doesn't negate Devil Fruit powers.

 

[KingTempest]

So what I'm seeing is that forcefield manip needs to go, since regular haki is given forcefield manipulation for figurative language and it's blocking out every resistance possible.

Power Null doesn't even sound right. I know it's a different type of power null, but it's just wrong.

Doffy says Haki would block it, and when we see it on Smoker, it just didn't work on him while the attack still went on behind him, so it's not just power nullification.

 

[Damage3245]

I vehemently disagree with it being power null, we have direct statements from the Manga outright saying Haki doesn't negate Devil Fruit powers.

Limited Power Nullification

If we decide on power nullification, alright, just don't make it specific to DF abilities.

We don't. I'm pretty sure we treat Haki as working on anyone with elemental intangibility who has a real physical body behind their elemental intangibility, for example.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I changed my mind a bit, they do flat out say that Haki doesn’t negate the abilities, so I can’t really agree with Power Null

 

[Damage3245]

I changed my mind a bit, they do flat out say that Haki doesn’t negate the abilities, so I can’t really agree with Power Null

I think people are getting confused on the Power Null point. I'm not talking about Power Null in the sense that it negates Devil Fruit Abilities completely. I'm talking about Power Null in the sense that it negates actual powers we have listed here on the wiki like Elemental Intangibility.

At the moment we simply list this on the Haki page as "Non-Physical Interaction (Exclusively with those using Elemental Intangibility)" but that's a bit too limited in scope since it affects someone like Luffy who isn't intangible/non-physical.

 

[KingTempest]

Extras​

Spoiler: Extras

We should remove Non-Physical Interaction and replace it with Elemental Intangibility Negation, since we see that Non-Physical Interaction via Buso doesn't work on Prometheus.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; in case I haven't said it before on this thread, I do agree with what you're saying in that Extras bit.

 

[Kurifesilon]

I’m guessing you don’t give specific resistances for characters that use it because generally the durability of their body is not in in use, just the durability of the forcefield.

But using your own words, it is a durability-enhacing forcefield, which means the users durability is in use, this means that resistances should applied.

So? Am wrong or not? You say it enhances the user’s durability but you are proposing it is a forcefield of some kind that protects the user.

Why would it enhance the durability of the user if you think this forcefield is protecting the user?

 

[KingTempest]

I'll just say this now, cause I don't think I've explicitly said this. I've been ranting about resistance but I haven't countered exactly why it's not power nullification.

In chapter 662 of One Piece, Law and Smoker fight. It's one out of 4 Law fights, and this is the only one where he actually spams his Ope Ope no Mi abilities.

I'm assuming we don't need any more justification for spacial manipulation resistance, via this

A statement by
B. Doflamingo, who has studied the Ope Ope no Mi (from the statement WE KNOW ALL ABOUT YOUR POWERS, also his knowledge gathering on it), superior to Vergo (someone with incredible Haki), yea I'm almost 1000% sure that Doflamingo is a beautiful source for this. Doflamingo's statement shouldn't need extre proof since he researched the fruit.

Law swings at Smoker and Smoker presumably smacks the sword away. If this was power nullification, the attack should've just been completely done in contact with Smoker.

I say this is resistance because the attack still traveled, Smoker and his weapon just weren't affected.

If this was power nullification, the attack wouldn't have traveled further, but it did.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Read through most of the thread I agree with most of the proposals I just have a few questions/slight problems
Luffy and daz bones should be resistant or even highly resistant to blunt force attacks/cutting attacks not immune. Luffy was beat up in the bar by bellamy garp damaged him (although you can argue oda didnt have black haki in mind yet) and I thought the haki zoro used in the fight was observation vs to dodge the rocks not aramament to cut him

Marco wearing bandages post fight is just showing he was injured in battle. Are all logias free of injuries at the end of their fights?

If stronger haki negs spatial manip are we saying characters with stronger haki then law would be immune to shambles?

 

[KingTempest]

Read through most of the thread I agree with most of the proposals I just have a few questions/slight problems
Luffy and daz bones should be resistant or even highly resistant to blunt force attacks/cutting attacks not immune. Luffy was beat up in the bar by bellamy garp damaged him (although you can argue oda didnt have black haki in mind yet) and I thought the haki zoro used in the fight was observation vs to dodge the rocks not aramament to cut him

This Wiki currently doesn't accept immunities for those two characters, but I always liked this argument.

The issue with this is that those are slight inconsistencies and such. Every time someone noticeably hurts Luffy, they say "it shouldn't hurt you" So people far weaker hurting them, especially how Luffy was getting hit by Rob Lucci then everyone was surprised when he got harmed by Garp, it says a lot. I think Oda wasn't thinking about that, since there's no reason why everyone should be surprised that "The Hero Garp" can hurt Luffy when people far weaker have.

Marco wearing bandages post fight is just showing he was injured in battle. Are all logias free of injuries at the end of their fights?

The issue is that Marco is not a Logia, he is a Mythical Zoan who has the ability to rapidly heal himself. He healed through Danmaku lasers.

If stronger haki negs spatial manip are we saying characters with stronger haki then law would be immune to shambles?

It negs spacial manip offensive attacks, not spacial manipulation in general. Law and Haki users can still get teleported, but an attack that is offensive (nothing defensive) wouldn't work on them.

 

[Kurifesilon]

So? Am wrong or not? You say it enhances the user’s durability but you are proposing it is a forcefield of some kind that protects the user.

Why would it enhance the durability of the user if you think this forcefield is protecting the user?

@KingTempest

Since nobody is answering me, is my argument senseless? It is being called A “Durability-enhancing forcefield” but forcefields rely on their built-in durability not the users correct? (That would be the reason why resistances are not added for forcefield users). Saying it is a invisible shield that increases the durability of the user itself makes no sense! It’s like saying a steel armor is making person using it durable instead of the armor itself being durable and protecting the user?

Am i not getting something?

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest

Since nobody is answering me, is my argument senseless? It is being called A “Durability-enhancing forcefield” but forcefields rely on their built-in durability not the users correct? (That would be the reason why resistances are not added for forcefield users). Saying it is a invisible shield that increases the durability of the user itself makes no sense! It’s like saying a steel armor is making person using it durable instead of the armor itself being durable and protecting the user?

Am i not getting something?

I've already countered the Forcefield portion and I said we should get rid of it.