Busoshoku Haki Huge Addition

[Kidkinsey]

This Wiki currently doesn't accept immunities for those two characters, but I always liked this argument.

The issue with this is that those are slight inconsistencies and such. Every time someone noticeably hurts Luffy, they say "it shouldn't hurt you" So people far weaker hurting them, especially how Luffy was getting hit by Rob Lucci then everyone was surprised when he got harmed by Garp, it says a lot. I think Oda wasn't thinking about that, since there's no reason why everyone should be surprised that "The Hero Garp" can hurt Luffy when people far weaker have.


The issue is that Marco is not a Logia, he is a Mythical Zoan who has the ability to rapidly heal himself. He healed through Danmaku lasers.

It negs spacial manip offensive attacks, not spacial manipulation in general. Law and Haki users can still get teleported, but an attack that is offensive (nothing defensive) wouldn't work on them.

I've always seen it as if the person is tiers above him they are able to hurt him easily where as if you are on his level you have to rack up alot of damage

Is it possible that garps punches>the lasers so it took longer to heal

ahhh ok i've seen some people argue law wont be able to shambles stronger foes so I just wanted to double check

 

[KingTempest]

I've always seen it as if the person is tiers above him they are able to hurt him easily where as if you are on his level you have to rack up alot of damage

Nah, cause Mihawk is Large Mountain and Daz Bones is Small City, and Daz Bones took his attack.

Is it possible that garps punches>the lasers so it took longer to heal

Most likely it's Garp's punches utilized Haki.
The lasers via our profiles are dura neg, Garp's punches aren't.
The lasers completely went through his body, Garp's left a mark.
The lasers were perfectly mimicked into Franky's and the Pacifista, and they can't mimic Haki, so most likely the lasers didn't have Haki.
Right when Marco was good he healed instantly. There shouldn't be a reason outside of the Haki portion.

ahhh ok i've seen some people argue law wont be able to shambles stronger foes so I just wanted to double check

No problem!

 

[XDragnoir]

Nah, cause Mihawk is Large Mountain and Daz Bones is Small City, and Daz Bones took his attack.

Any reason to Mihawk go all out there? Hell, even Buggy had no problem surviving Mihawk during MF.

The lasers were perfectly mimicked into Franky's and the Pacifista, and they can't mimic Haki, so most likely the lasers didn't have Haki.

I didn't get it, Pacifistas and Franky being unable to use haki means the lasers didn't have it?

 

[KingTempest]

Any reason to Mihawk go all out there? Hell, even Buggy had no problem surviving Mihawk during MF.

Saying Buggy could survive when his ability is to get sliced is not a good argument.

I didn't get it, Pacifistas and Franky being unable to use haki means the lasers didn't have it?

Ignore that point from above

 

[Eminiteable]

Buggy actually has immunity on his profile so he doesn't count.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Is it possible that mihawk wasn't going all out and it was just a unquantifiable amount of its power, its possible to block or intercept somebody without fully scaling

I had no idea they were dura neg I have to read up on that, I agree that his punch used haki it had to since marco was in his non human form I was only iffy on granting the dura neg due to marco wearing a bandage post fight

 

[Kidkinsey]

nvm just saw the scan you posted I didnt refresh the page before hitting send lol

 

[KingTempest]

Is it possible that mihawk wasn't going all out and it was just a unquantifiable amount of its power, its possible to block or intercept somebody without fully scaling

nvm just saw the scan you posted I didnt refresh the page before hitting send lol

Yeah no problem.

I had no idea they were dura neg I have to read up on that, I agree that his punch used haki it had to since marco was in his non human form I was only iffy on granting the dura neg due to marco wearing a bandage post fight

It's all cool

 

[XDragnoir]

@KingTempest

Since nobody is answering me, is my argument senseless? It is being called A “Durability-enhancing forcefield” but forcefields rely on their built-in durability not the users correct? (That would be the reason why resistances are not added for forcefield users). Saying it is a invisible shield that increases the durability of the user itself makes no sense! It’s like saying a steel armor is making person using it durable instead of the armor itself being durable and protecting the user?

Am i not getting something?

That's semantics IMO, wielding a sword does not really raise your body's AP, but it still does more damage so the AP is actually raised in the end, same logic applies to shields and consequently to force fields. But it seems Haki, will not be a force field anymore, so whatever

It negs spacial manip offensive attacks, not spacial manipulation in general. Law and Haki users can still get teleported, but an attack that is offensive (nothing defensive) wouldn't work on them.

This makes no sense, shambles is space hax, if they resist space hax they should resist shambles.

So, Mihawk wasn't holding back, but even then he didn't add a single small amount of haki enough to deal with someone massively weaker than him? I am just disappointed with Mihawk rn, cause i didn't remember this scene.

 

[KingTempest]

This makes no sense, shambles is space hax, if they resist space hax they should resist shambles.

It's not offensive, huge difference. It's space hax, but it's not an attack.

So, Mihawk wasn't holding back, but even then he didn't add a single small amount of haki enough to deal with someone massively weaker than him? I am just disappointed with Mihawk rn, cause i didn't remember this scene.

He didn't need Haki for Luffy since he's rubber, so he did a regular strike.
He needed Haki for Daz Bones cause inverse, Daz Bones is immune to his attack.

 

[XDragnoir]

It's not offensive, huge difference. It's space hax, but it's not an attack.

It is a Devil Fruit's ability, did any quote note that it was only a counter measure against DFs' offensive powers?

 

[LordGinSama]

It is a Devil Fruit's ability, did any quote note that it was only a counter measure against DFs' offensive powers?

They resist spatial slashing, not all of Law's Devil Fruits abilities like Shambles.

 

[KingTempest]

It is a Devil Fruit's ability, did any quote note that it was only a counter measure against DFs' offensive powers?

They resist spatial slashing, not all of Law's Devil Fruits abilities like Shambles.

Basically this.

It's like resisting Gura Gura but still falling over from an earthquake. Same concept, different usages

 

[XDragnoir]

They resist spatial slashing, not all of Law's Devil Fruits abilities like Shambles.

Huh, at this point i really want to disagree with resistance to Law's fruit (at the start i said i agreed with they resisting it), cause it is such a limited and specific resistance that it will hardly matter in any match i could try in the future.

 

[KingTempest]

Huh, at this point i really want to disagree with resistance to Law's fruit (at the start i said i agreed with they resisting it), cause it is such a limited and specific resistance that it will hardly matter in any match i could try in the future.

Resisting teleportation is weird.
They don't resist being moved, it's just transferral of space.

It's not space affecting them, it's them being placed into a different area in space.

Amputate is space actually affecting them.

That's my take on it

 

[LordGinSama]

They'd be resistant to offense spatial hax, not defensive so it's not limited in that nature. I could also care less about matches, if that's the only reason you disagree then your opinion doesn't count, matches are irrelevant to this threads purpose.

 

[joshpiece]

Huh, at this point i really want to disagree with resistance to Law's fruit (at the start i said i agreed with they resisting it), cause it is such a limited and specific resistance that it will hardly matter in any match i could try in the future.

It’s a teleportation move. Not like it’s a attack

 

[XDragnoir]

Resisting teleportation is weird.

Wouldn't be the first time i saw it, but meh.

It's not space affecting them, it's them being placed into a different area in space.

It's still being done through a Devil Fruit, so if we are going to give resistance to space cuts i don't see why not give resistance to teleportation via space hax, we see Law shambling someone he shouldn't be able to?

 

[KingTempest]

It's still being done through a Devil Fruit, so if we are going to give resistance to space cuts i don't see why not give resistance to teleportation via space hax, we see Law shambling someone he shouldn't be able to?

Because they're not being affected, the space is, it's a big difference.

Amputate is attacking them via space.

They're resistant to space attacks, not just space around them.

 

[Damage3245]

Regarding the Law and Smoker fights, those are actually two different swings by Law.

The first one, Smoker blocks with his weapon.

The second one, the one-handed swing, slices through objects in the distance. There's no indication Smoker blocked this one.

It's possible that contact with Smoker's weapon is what negated his spatial slice from the first swing, or he just wasn't using a spatial slice there at all.

 

[Kurifesilon]

It's possible that contact with Smoker's weapon is what negated his spatial slice from the first swing

Marine ships are covered in seastone, that didn’t stop law from slicing them in half.

 

[Damage3245]

Marine ships are covered in seastone, that didn’t stop law from slicing them in half.

Fair point.

 

[KingTempest]

Marine ships are covered in seastone, that didn’t stop law from slicing them in half.

I'm assuming that countered @Damage3245's point

So what is solid so far?

 

[KingTempest]

What do we currently classify water as to Df users? Power Nullification?

 

[Damage3245]

I believe so. Users of Devil Fruits can't activate their powers underwater (although people who've had their bodies permanently altered such as Luffy still have their powers active, even though their strength is reduced by the water).

 

[KingTempest]

Just noticed.

Luffy can use a bunch of underwater attacks while coated with Haki (shown to have been weaker but he can still land heavy attacks), but can touch seastone without it and gets astronomically weaker. Even while under water he can barely function without haki.

The Red Hawk example especially (idk how he can use fire under water, probably with Haki idk, but yeah) but his arm was stretched out w/ Haki and he had no complaints, while his arm was stretched out to a lower extent (to grab Hody) and gets weaker.

 

[Damage3245]

Seastone comes in different levels of concentrations (with some barely weakening users, and others completely stopping them). So it's possible that "average water power" is weaker than some forms of Seastone. Just throwing that out there since I don't think there's any kind of hard proof either way.

 

[KingTempest]

Seastone comes in different levels of concentrations (with some barely weakening users, and others completely stopping them). So it's possible that "average water power" is weaker than some forms of Seastone. Just throwing that out there since I don't think there's any kind of hard proof either way.

I wouldn't count on it, since we see that they're in the water again during Dressrosa (away from Seastone) and they're still weakened to extreme levels.
Same here.

 

[KingTempest]

So is resistance to contact based Power Nullification in order?

We haven't gotten anything accepted yet, I need to know what's good and what's not without "Haki > Devil Fruits, so that's why it worked", because we need to list what's accepted or not.

It's Saturday where I'm at, thread started Tuesday, not a single thing has been agreed on.

 

[Eminiteable]

So is resistance to contact based Power Nullification in order?

Seems fine, I agree with this.

 

[Damage3245]

So is resistance to contact based Power Nullification in order?

For what?

 

[KingTempest]

For what?

Just noticed.

Luffy can use a bunch of underwater attacks while coated with Haki (shown to have been weaker but he can still land heavy attacks), but can touch seastone without it and gets astronomically weaker. Even while under water he can barely function without haki.

The Red Hawk example especially (idk how he can use fire under water, probably with Haki idk, but yeah) but his arm was stretched out w/ Haki and he had no complaints, while his arm was stretched out to a lower extent (to grab Hody) and gets weaker.

I wouldn't count on it, since we see that they're in the water again during Dressrosa (away from Seastone) and they're still weakened to extreme levels.
Same here.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; personally I wouldn't call that resistance. Luffy's Devil Fruit already isn't nullified by seawater since he can stretch.

He was being weakened by the seawater and just had enough strength to launch an attack, but that doesn't mean that the Haki was what enabled him to launch the attack.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; personally I wouldn't call that resistance. Luffy's Devil Fruit already isn't nullified by seawater since he can stretch.

He was being weakened by the seawater and just had enough strength to launch an attack, but that doesn't mean that the Haki was what enabled him to launch the attack.

He left his arm out for an extended period of time prior to launching the attack. He went Gear Third and kept his arm out for a prolonged period of time, while in other instances he immediately gets super weak.

What about Power absorption? He said the sea was draining his energy. Nullification might be a stretch

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; the fact that Luffy says that even while he's got his Haki fully over it makes me believe that he isn't specially resistant in that moment. Seawater doesn't work instantaneously if it is draining their strength, and Luffy is a ridiculously strong individual.

Even Robin, who isn't confirmed to have Haki, could use her Devil Fruit underwater for a brief period of time.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; the fact that Luffy says that even while he's got his Haki fully over it makes me believe that he isn't specially resistant in that moment. Seawater doesn't work instantaneously if it is draining their strength, and Luffy is a ridiculously strong individual.

A later Luffy was knocked into water and was instantly weakened.

I wouldn't count on it, since we see that they're in the water again during Dressrosa (away from Seastone) and they're still weakened to extreme levels.
Same here.

Both of those^

Even Robin, who isn't confirmed to have Haki, could use her Devil Fruit underwater for a brief period of time.

She says "we may be underwater, but if it's only for an instant" in the same exact scan you sent which signifies that it wasn't that long amount of time. Luffy had his arm sticking out with Haki for a significantly long period of time to the point where Sanji could run dozens of meters under water and Zoro's slashes could reach and chop off all of Surume's tentacles, and we see Luffy for multiple panels also talking before he launches the attack.

 

[Damage3245]

Luffy had his arm sticking out with Haki for a significantly long period of time to the point where Sanji could run dozens of meters under water and Zoro's slashes could reach and chop off all of Surume's tentacles, and we see Luffy for multiple panels also talking before he launches the attack.

That still doesn't conclusively prove to me that Haki is what is making him able to launch an attack. Why wouldn't he just activate Haki before touching Seastone?

A later Luffy was knocked into water and was instantly weakened.

Easily explainable as PIS.

 

[KingTempest]

That still doesn't conclusively prove to me that Haki is what is making him able to launch an attack. Why wouldn't he just activate Haki before touching Seastone?

Weren't you the same one who said Seastone was different than regular water? This wouldn't count.

Easily explainable as PIS.

How is that PIS when it happens consistently for the entire show. i can't find one scan in the manga where Luffy touches sitting water with a good amount of water on his body w/out instantly losing energy.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think we should be giving all Haki users Resistance to Power Nullification based on a couple cases of possible inconsistency for one character.

Luffy was affected by the seawater even with Haki. He just had enough strength to launch an attack. That's it to me, until we get a proper explanation from the series itself or more feats.

 

[KingTempest]

I don't think we should be giving all Haki users Resistance to Power Nullification based on a couple cases of possible inconsistency for one character.

Luffy in Chapter 1.
Buggy in Chapter 19.
Luffy in Chapter 66.
Luffy in Chapter 83.
Foxy in Chapter 318.
Vander in Chapter 640.
Brook and Momonosuke in Chapter 795.

You can not convince me that this is an inconsistency.

Luffy was affected by the seawater even with Haki. He just had enough strength to launch an attack. That's it to me, until we get a proper explanation from the series itself or more feats.

Luffy was in Gear Third with Buso: Koka around his body, left his arm out for an extended amount of time, then screamed while launching an attack with people noting his force.
Gear Third raises the surface area of his fist as well. He should've been even super affected.

Luffy was in Gear Second with Buso: Koka with his arm stretched out to an unknown amount and was able to move fast enough for his arm catch on fire while underwater.

Luffy was in Base with no Buso was trying to grab someone on 2 occasions and almost gave up on contact because of how weak the water made him.

The point is not that he wasn't affected, he clearly was, it's that he was affected to a lesser extent.