Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

@Theglassman12 @Sir_Ovens @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

MrGlassman is on vacation to recover from hand injury.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Dienomite seems to make some good points. There are likely too great uncertainties for statistics upgrades in this case.

What uncertainties do you see? Please list the uncertainty you see in:

• every separate space being confirmed a universe, as world is constantly synonymous with universe
• luka is a reliable source, from an even more reliable source, who’s existed before the former
• Occam’s razor proves it true

I would like to know what uncertainty you see.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not remember well enough, but you may be right. I would prefer to read further input from Dienomite and our staff though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think I'm waiting on ComicGal's arguments and also sources for the important statements. Unless already written more recently, then a simple requote works in that regard.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I do not remember well enough, but you may be right. I would prefer to read further input from Dienomite and our staff though.

Isn’t the very fact that he admitted to not seeing the game in 100% capacity (by his own admission) enough to discredit any argument he has made so far?

This is literally arguing from ignorance, and yet his whole argument is debunked by the story, since he claims Luka is unreliable.

Thank you. I haven't got to play Bayonetta 2 yet so I wouldn't have known this.

I don't want to watch every bit of cutscene a game I've never played, especially one I want to play. I still need some surprises. I'm not sure how that's strange

 

[Comicgyal]

I think I'm waiting on ComicGal's arguments and also sources for the important statements. Unless already written more recently, then a simple requote works in that regard.

Which part are you looking for? Most Dienomites arguments against Muspelheim and it being a universe were debunked, case being..

I’m calm as well, but they’re right, having an argument formed off of: “It doesn’t say the words universe so it isn’t one”

Despite it being called a world which means universe in game, having a separate space time, and being decently sized. It doesn’t make much sense.

I understand that Luka calling the human universe a “World” is passable because it’s obviously a universe, but you cannot deny that same logic for Muspelheim. Because Alfheim is not called a world, despite it being filled with galaxies with stars.

“I have one more interesting aside. Within Paradiso, there are said to be secret rooms known as Alfheim, where angels gather and hold their banquets.”

Muspelheim fits the description, and again

It being separate is enough, here is what Ultima said about it:

“Yeah, I'd say so. The paragraph you've posted even describes it as "separated" from the flow of time, so, it wouldn't make much sense to interpret it in any other way, in my view.”

It is not merely “different” than the normal space time, but separated from it entirely.

It is a proven multi solar system sized dimension, with a completely separate space time, that’s also referred to as a universe in the games own lore.. I don’t see what other context is needed.

Then dienomite explaining that he didn’t know everything about what he was arguing.

Thank you. I haven't got to play Bayonetta 2 yet so I wouldn't have known this.

What does Bayonetta not being ignorant of Muspelheim have to do with Luka?

I don't want to watch every bit of cutscene a game I've never played, especially one I want to play. I still need some surprises. I'm not sure how that's strange

So Muspelheim has no further contention, and should be fine now.

If you agree with that, I can get into the actual 2-C justifications.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ah, I see. Then I think 2-C is legit in that regard.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

As do I.

 

[Dienomite22]

I’m on my lunch break so i dont have much time but i got to get somethings off my chest. I tell you guys I haven’t played Bayonetta 2 and you run with it to try and discredit me? First off, just because I haven’t played or seen Bayo 2 in its entirety doesn't mean all of my arguments are null, if we used this argument the people who disagreed with DMC upgrades and were involved in heated debates against the verse wouldnt have been given the position and role to dictate what happens to the verse. The only argument of that can be thrown out is Muspelheim’s size.

My argument against the sphere has not been debunked or contested in depth and we have yet to have a real discussion as to why Muspelheim would be included in the merging of the ToR.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m on my lunch break so i dont have much time but i got to get somethings off my chest. I tell you guys I haven’t played Bayonetta 2 and you run with it to try and discredit me?

Yes. That’s exactly what discrediting means. Why exactly would you argue something from a game you admit you haven’t fully seen, by your own admission? That automatically puts your at a stance where you aren’t as reliable in refuting arguments. Talking about rocket science when you’ve never seen a rocket means you are not credible. The game cuts your argument to ribbons, meaning that any reason to doubt Luka and Rodin is null and void, unless you can prove both of them wrong.

if we used this argument the people who disagreed with DMC upgrades and were involved in heated debates against the verse wouldnt have been given the position and role to dictate what happens to the verse. The only argument of that can be thrown out is Muspelheim’s size.

This isn’t about DMC upgrades, nor the context involving them, especially since I wasn’t involved with them. Whether Muspelheim is part of the Trinity, or merged is not my concern, what is the blatant fact you don’t have knowledge on the very thing you seek to refute, making you discreditable.

 

[Comicgyal]

I guess it's fine for me to write my summary for my counterarguments.

My first issue that comes with the proposal is Jubileus' "origin of the universe" being considered 2-C. The only information we have of this sphere is that it contains at least 1 universe according to WoG, which is the lightning/wind space Jubileus creates, while the other two spaces she creates are clearly not universes in terms of size or scope, unlike the lightning/wind space which can be argued to be a universe thanks to the visuals. Kamiya states this sphere is the "origin of the universe is trying to create" with the elements of fire, ice, lightning, and wind is used to create an "image of Heaven and Earth being created". This is all the information we have on the sphere. Nothing mentioning it having its own space-time or being outside the trinity of the realities' space-time, in fact, Queen Sheba is summoned outside of said sphere (which is physically shown to be at the far end of our solar system) and punches Jubileus' sphere, destroying said sphere and knocking Jubileus' soul into the Sun. I'm not sure how this would be done if the sphere is not within the ToR's (Trinity of Realities) space-time. Not only that happens but Jubileus' physical body falls back to Earth right after being punched by Queen Sheba. As this is a summary I will withhold my other arguments against the sphere being 2-C but my stance on the feat is that it's 3-A for the lightning space Jubileus temporarily created being called a universe by WoG.

To start off this is simply untrue, Kamiya makes a statement that the dimension she summoned you in is a universe, but that dimension is not vastly different than the others we’re shown. Infact Kamiya says that the other dimensions give the picture of heaven and earth being created, directly comparing them to other universes. All the dimensions are vast in size, you can only see a wider scope of the lightning dimension because of how shes placed herself around it. Doesn’t make sense for her to make multiple dimensions in the exact same way, but only one of them just happened to be a universe.

As for the other half of the argument, I will say again that the universes have a layered structure. Just like the case with purgatorio, although it is connected to the trinity, it does not exist within said structure. The reason why I bring purgatorio up again, is because the trinity has a very distinct balance.

“The three realms our world is divided into--light, darkness, and chaos--have been carefully balanced as the Trinity of Realities, so as not to interfere with one another. Although we say three realms, they originally existed as one. The split caused the balance between the worlds to something be as delicate walking across thin ice. If one realm were to eventually acquire greater power than the others, the balance of the three realms would easily fall into anarchy.”

This quote explains to us that the three realms share a very important balance between one another, and interfering with that balance will cause its collapse. Purgatorio is mentioned in this same quote mind you.

“There are some with the ability to travel to Purgatorio, the realm between realms, or use the gates to travel back and forth between different realms, sometimes causing chaos and confusion. Irresponsible use of this power can use monumental problems for the Trinity. It can lead to wars between realms and devastating natural disasters. At least, if I'm to believe the words of a certain bartender I've been spending too much time with.”

Purgatorio is used to travel between them all, but it isn’t apart of its unique balance. Which is why I keep trying to tell everyone that yes purgatorio is connected to the trinity, but is not one in the same with its unique three layered structure. So why does this matter? It means that new universes can’t just be “introduced” into the trinity, that would offset its balance and result in the collapse. So that means the origin of the universe Jubileus was creating is not a part of that balance, which means it operates under a different space time than the others. Just because it was summoned into the human world doesn’t mean anything, nor does her falling into its sun. Because purgatorio is closely layered to the human world, but isn’t in that structure.

Also we know more about the sphere than you care to admit. It’s the same sphere from the beginning of time, and was the foundation for the current multiverse.

 

[Dienomite22]

Did you guys lose sight of the main arguments?

Sure say I’m wrong and that everything I say is wrong. It should be easy to explain why Muspelheim, separate spacetime outside the trinity, would be apart of the merging of the ToR or why the “origin of the universe” is anything bigger than 3-A, if everything I say is wrong and discredited

Yes. That’s exactly what discrediting means. Why exactly would you argue something from a game you admit you haven’t fully seen, by your own admission? That automatically puts your at a stance where you aren’t as reliable in refuting arguments. Talking about rocket science when you’ve never seen a rocket means you are not credible. The game cuts your argument to ribbons, meaning that any reason to doubt Luka and Rodin is null and void, unless you can prove both of them wrong.

The game cuts one argument ive made to ribbons therefor every argument ive made is wrong and discredited?

This isn’t about DMC upgrades, nor the context involving them, especially since I wasn’t involved with them. Whether Muspelheim is part of the Trinity, or merged is not my concern, what is the blatant fact you don’t have knowledge on the very thing you seek to refute, making you discreditable.

The point is not playing/viewing all or one of a game series doesnt make a person untrustworthy as we have had verses with users who were viewed as the “most knowledgeable” of the verse who actually havent played any or only few of the games nor actually watched any of the cutscenes.

 

[Comicgyal]

Ah, I see. Then I think 2-C is legit in that regard.

That above is my counter argument for the 2-C statement.

I’m on my lunch break so i dont have much time but i got to get somethings off my chest. I tell you guys I haven’t played Bayonetta 2 and you run with it to try and discredit me? First off, just because I haven’t played or seen Bayo 2 in its entirety doesn't mean all of my arguments are null, if we used this argument the people who disagreed with DMC upgrades and were involved in heated debates against the verse wouldnt have been given the position and role to dictate what happens to the verse. The only argument of that can be thrown out is Muspelheim’s size.

My argument against the sphere has not been debunked or contested in depth and we have yet to have a real discussion as to why Muspelheim would be included in the merging of the ToR.

Yes, because Bayonetta is a very strict verse with its information. Any series with logic that isn’t explained to you, and information/lore that has to be found fits under that description. You are not very credible for this argument, since it discusses information about a game you have not played. While you can make some counter arguments based off of assumption, it isn’t as credible as an argument from myself, or anyone else who has actually taken the time to finish the series.

I’ve given you the proof about purgatorio, how it isn’t in the structure, how it’s not apart of the balance, but because it’s connected to the trinity that means it will be merged. yes purgatorio is layered more closely than Muspelheim, but Muspelheim is also connected to the trinity itself. There’s no reason for it not to be included in the merging.
But again that’s not our main focus now, just getting it deemed as a universal space is fine enough. The sphere is the actual 2-C argument to worry about.

 

[Dienomite22]

To start off this is simply untrue, Kamiya makes a statement that the dimension she summoned you in is a universe, but that dimension is not vastly different than the others we’re shown. Infact Kamiya says that the other dimensions give the picture of heaven and earth being created, directly comparing them to other universes. All the dimensions are vast in size, you can only see a wider scope of the lightning dimension because of how shes placed herself around it. Doesn’t make sense for her to make multiple dimensions in the exact same way, but only one of them just happened to be a universe.

As for the other half of the argument, I will say again that the universes have a layered structure. Just like the case with purgatorio, although it is connected to the trinity, it does not exist within said structure. The reason why I bring purgatorio up again, is because the trinity has a very distinct balance.

“The three realms our world is divided into--light, darkness, and chaos--have been carefully balanced as the Trinity of Realities, so as not to interfere with one another. Although we say three realms, they originally existed as one. The split caused the balance between the worlds to something be as delicate walking across thin ice. If one realm were to eventually acquire greater power than the others, the balance of the three realms would easily fall into anarchy.”

This quote explains to us that the three realms share a very important balance between one another, and interfering with that balance will cause its collapse. Purgatorio is mentioned in this same quote mind you.

“There are some with the ability to travel to Purgatorio, the realm between realms, or use the gates to travel back and forth between different realms, sometimes causing chaos and confusion. Irresponsible use of this power can use monumental problems for the Trinity. It can lead to wars between realms and devastating natural disasters. At least, if I'm to believe the words of a certain bartender I've been spending too much time with.”

Purgatorio is used to travel between them all, but it isn’t apart of its unique balance. Which is why I keep trying to tell everyone that yes purgatorio is connected to the trinity, but is not one in the same with its unique three layered structure. So why does this matter? It means that new universes can’t just be “introduced” into the trinity, that would offset its balance and result in the collapse. So that means the origin of the universe Jubileus was creating is not a part of that balance, which means it operates under a different space time than the others. Just because it was summoned into the human world doesn’t mean anything, nor does her falling into its sun. Because purgatorio is closely layered to the human world, but isn’t in that structure.

Also we know more about the sphere than you care to admit. It’s the same sphere from the beginning of time, and was the foundation for the current multiverse.

Marking this. When i get off work this will be the first thing I respond to.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Sure say I’m wrong and that everything I say is wrong. It should be easy to explain why Muspelheim, separate spacetime outside the trinity, would be apart of the merging of the ToR

Whether Muspelheim is part of the Trinity, or merged is not my concern,

The game cuts one argument ive made to ribbons therefor every argument ive made is wrong and discredited?

Only this argument, yes, because that’s the only argument I’ve made. However, the fact that you haven’t seen all of it still makes your credibility as a whole shaky.

The point is not playing/viewing all or one of a game series doesnt make a person untrustworthy as we have had verses with users who were viewed as the “most knowledgeable” of the verse who actually havent played any or only few of the games nor actually watched any of the cutscenes.

None of this any concern, because you don’t have to play the game to be more knowledgeable than someone who watched it. You admitted you haven’t played, or seen all of it.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What is with this stupid argument of "oh you didn't play x game or finished x thing so your argument is void"? Who the actual **** comes with that idea? With that logic literally no one on this wiki can make calls on any other verse here.

CRT's are supposed to have the information necessary for whatever they are pushing and everybody, literally ******* everybody can come in, evaluate the proof and make a logic conclusion based on that. It is not based on who played/read/saw something and they and only they can make conclusions.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

What is with this stupid argument of "oh you didn't play x game or finished x thing so your argument is void"? Who the actual **** comes with that idea? With that logic literally no one on this wiki can make calls on any other verse here.

CRT's are supposed to have the information necessary for whatever they are pushing and everybody, literally ******* everybody can come in, evaluate the proof and make a logic conclusion based on that. It is not based on who played/read/saw something and they and only they can make conclusions.

All of the information pertanent to this thread is readily available in th blog in the OP and the rest of the counterpoints have been provided in the form of extra video clips, the point is that Dienomite was actively avoiding key information on this topic yet continuing to argue as though he knew th topic at hand anyways

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What is with this stupid argument of "oh you didn't play x game or finished x thing so your argument is void"? Who the actual **** comes with that idea? With that logic literally no one on this wiki can make calls on any other verse here.

That’s... blatantly untrue. If you make an argument from a game you haven’t finished, in which the game debunks, then how is your argument credible? This is logic to basic life. Do you go into physics not knowing how wavelengths and black bodies work, but stating an argument against them? Do you go into math not knowing Pythagorean theorem but argue it’s faulty? Do you go into a DMC thread saying Dante is only 9-C when you’ve only seen 20 minutes of the first game?

If you are arguing against something you have not finished in 100%, you are arguing from ignorance, a logical fallacy.

 

[Antvasima]

One of the basic premises of this wiki is that we should try to be critical of the upgrades pushed by the knowledgeable supporters, to ensure that the information is reliable and no bias is at play though.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

to ensure that the information is reliable

I’m losing my marbles.

He verbatim admitted to not finishing the second game, intentionally, at that, and his argument was about the credibility of statements when the very game debunks such an argument proves such sources are reliable and trustworthy. How exactly does the Bayonetta side have to prove more when he’s proven he hasn’t consumed all the information yet continues to argue against it??

 

[Comicgyal]

What is with this stupid argument of "oh you didn't play x game or finished x thing so your argument is void"? Who the actual **** comes with that idea? With that logic literally no one on this wiki can make calls on any other verse here.

CRT's are supposed to have the information necessary for whatever they are pushing and everybody, literally ******* everybody can come in, evaluate the proof and make a logic conclusion based on that. It is not based on who played/read/saw something and they and only they can make conclusions.

It’s as weekly said, dienomite was arguing from a stance of objectivity and using the wikis rather strict standards because he didn’t have a full understanding of the lore. That was my main issue, not the fact that he didn’t finish the game. Of course not everyone who comments on a thread will have deep understanding, but you cannot try and make a very sound argument by ignoring key details given to you by a story you didn’t finish or look into.

I’m not saying dienomite should leave the thread, or that anything he says is invalid, but that it’s not as credible because of that simple fact.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

In case you misunderstood, im going against the notion of "you need to play x shit to make arguments otherwise your argument is useless", him making correct or incorrect calls in the thread is not what I was talking about.

Obviously the info is in the OP, im not denying that, what Im saying is how this damn wiki works and how we can make arguments and conclusions based on said info. That's what a large part of the people here have been doing for years.

That’s... blatantly untrue. If you make an argument from a game you haven’t finished, in which the game debunks, then how is your argument credible

The argument is done upon the information presented, if someone concludes it is insufficient then that's it, more people can come and add to that or debunk it adding more information (that's how a ******* debate works)

Do you go into physics not knowing how wavelengths and black bodies work, but stating an argument against them? Do you go into math not knowing Pythagorean theorem but argue it’s faulty?

This is a false equivalency, we are arguing based on the information in the OP, not based on knowing literally nothing and then throwing an argument against it. Otherwise debates would not exist as people lack the information the other party might have.

If you are arguing against something you have not finished in 100%, you are arguing from ignorance, a logical fallacy.

That is not justified when the job of the OP is to present every evidence aviable and from there on people are supposed to make a coherent and logical conclusion, if the OP fails in some way or another to present said evidence that's on them.

But if we are using that, literally any staff member who comes here and has no knowledge in the game(s) can't make a conclusion as they too have not finished the game(s) 100%

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The argument is done upon the information presented, if someone concludes it is insufficient then that's it, more people can come and add to that or debunk it adding more information (that's how a ******* debate works)

Which is what happened, and what lead to Dienomite concluding that his argument was wrong when presented with new information yet people are siding with him anyways

 

[Comicgyal]

But let’s not waste more comments about whether he played the game or not, we are still quite obviously engaging Dienomite in the debate so it doesn’t matter. Also the staff on most, if not all of our threads have good knowledge on the verse. Medeus, Weekly, Glass, DragonMaster, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

I’m losing my marbles.

He verbatim admitted to not finishing the second game, intentionally, at that, and his argument was about the credibility of statements when the very game debunks such an argument proves such sources are reliable and trustworthy. How exactly does the Bayonetta side have to prove more when he’s proven he hasn’t consumed all the information yet continues to argue against it??

I was talking in a general sense.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

In case you misunderstood, im going against the notion of "you need to play x shit to make arguments otherwise your argument is useless", him making correct or incorrect calls in the thread is not what I was talking about.

That’s not what anyone said though?? I verbatim said:

None of this any concern, because you don’t have to play the game to be more knowledgeable than someone who watched it. You admitted you haven’t played, or seen all of it.

Yes. That’s exactly what discrediting means. Why exactly would you argue something from a game you admit you haven’t fully seen, by your own admission?

It seems very strange you would mention that you never played the second game, when the evidence provided was a cutscene, there’s nothing to play.

All my comments are about playing the game, or seeing the game. Neither are superior to the other, what argument are you talking about?

Obviously the info is in the OP, im not denying that, what Im saying is how this damn wiki works and how we can make arguments and conclusions based on said info. That's what a large part of the people here have been doing for years.

But that isn’t what’s happening here. You can surely make arguments based off context and experience, but his argument fundamentally goes against the established lore that Luka is a credible source.

The argument is done upon the information presented, if someone concludes it is insufficient then that's it, more people can come and add to that or debunk it adding more information (that's how a ******* debate works)

So, how exactly do you prove Luka and Rodin insufficient evidence when Luka gets his evidence from Rodin? Muspelheim is a universe (argument) -> No it’s not, Luka is a human who doesn’t even know (insufficient evidence) -> Crimson shows that Rodin is the anonymous source (debunked) -> chain is completed, is it not?

This is a false equivalency, we are arguing based on the information in the OP, not based on knowing literally nothing and then throwing an argument against it. Otherwise debates would not exist as people lack the information the other party might have.

It is not because this is, for the most part, about Bayonetta 2, which he admits he hasn’t seen to completion.

That is not justified when the job of the OP is to present every evidence aviable and from there on people are supposed to make a coherent and logical conclusion, if the OP fails in some way or another to present said evidence that's on them.

But if we are using that, literally any staff member who comes here and has no knowledge in the game(s) can't make a conclusion as they too have not finished the game(s) 100%

All evidence was presented, and was supported by supporters. The last part was not what I said.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I'm still not quite grasping the argument for Weakened Jubileus being 2-C, all this Muselpheim stuff is throwing me off. Could someone please give me a brief but short summary as to what quite makes Weakened Jub 2-C?

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm still not quite grasping the argument for Weakened Jubileus being 2-C, all this Muselpheim stuff is throwing me off. Could someone please give me a brief but short summary as to what quite makes Weakened Jub 2-C?

It’s what we’re discussing right now, my reasoning for why was said above, dienomite is giving his argument.

To start off this is simply untrue, Kamiya makes a statement that the dimension she summoned you in is a universe, but that dimension is not vastly different than the others we’re shown. Infact Kamiya says that the other dimensions give the picture of heaven and earth being created, directly comparing them to other universes. All the dimensions are vast in size, you can only see a wider scope of the lightning dimension because of how shes placed herself around it. Doesn’t make sense for her to make multiple dimensions in the exact same way, but only one of them just happened to be a universe.

As for the other half of the argument, I will say again that the universes have a layered structure. Just like the case with purgatorio, although it is connected to the trinity, it does not exist within said structure. The reason why I bring purgatorio up again, is because the trinity has a very distinct balance.

“The three realms our world is divided into--light, darkness, and chaos--have been carefully balanced as the Trinity of Realities, so as not to interfere with one another. Although we say three realms, they originally existed as one. The split caused the balance between the worlds to something be as delicate walking across thin ice. If one realm were to eventually acquire greater power than the others, the balance of the three realms would easily fall into anarchy.”

This quote explains to us that the three realms share a very important balance between one another, and interfering with that balance will cause its collapse. Purgatorio is mentioned in this same quote mind you.

“There are some with the ability to travel to Purgatorio, the realm between realms, or use the gates to travel back and forth between different realms, sometimes causing chaos and confusion. Irresponsible use of this power can use monumental problems for the Trinity. It can lead to wars between realms and devastating natural disasters. At least, if I'm to believe the words of a certain bartender I've been spending too much time with.”

Purgatorio is used to travel between them all, but it isn’t apart of its unique balance. Which is why I keep trying to tell everyone that yes purgatorio is connected to the trinity, but is not one in the same with its unique three layered structure. So why does this matter? It means that new universes can’t just be “introduced” into the trinity, that would offset its balance and result in the collapse. So that means the origin of the universe Jubileus was creating is not a part of that balance, which means it operates under a different space time than the others. Just because it was summoned into the human world doesn’t mean anything, nor does her falling into its sun. Because purgatorio is closely layered to the human world, but isn’t in that structure.

Also we know more about the sphere than you care to admit. It’s the same sphere from the beginning of time, and was the foundation for the current multiverse.

 

[Dienomite22]

To start off this is simply untrue, Kamiya makes a statement that the dimension she summoned you in is a universe, but that dimension is not vastly different than the others we’re shown. Infact Kamiya says that the other dimensions give the picture of heaven and earth being created, directly comparing them to other universes. All the dimensions are vast in size, you can only see a wider scope of the lightning dimension because of how shes placed herself around it. Doesn’t make sense for her to make multiple dimensions in the exact same way, but only one of them just happened to be a universe.

"Kamiya" (Wasn't Kamiya who said it but Jubileus' designer but I think we are saying Kamiya just to keep it short) states that the lightning dimension is a universe. He (Jubileus' designer) interrupts Kamiya to tell us that "When you get inside here (the lightning dimension), you find it's a universe.", something he doesn't say about the lava and ice dimension that appear before the lightning dimension even though he had plenty of time to do so. If each of them were supposed to be universes, he would have no need to only elaborate that the lightning dimension is a universe or he would've said that the same rule applies to the lava and ice dimension. As you can see from the interior and exterior the sphere is nothing close to the size of a universe. The sphere occupies the same space-time as the human world as it can be physically affected by beings outside of the sphere and said sphere is located physically on some far end of our Solar System. The lava and ice dimensions are clearly not either as they are the same size as the sphere without any elements.

But let's say, all of these dimensions are universes, why would that make the sphere 2-C? Each dimension disappears after Bayonetta pumbles Jubileus inside of the dimension so that isn't a reason the sphere or feat is 2-C. These dimensions aren't coexisting with one another. This would be no different from creating a universe after a universe is destroyed...a 3-A feat normally unless space-time is included.

As for the other half of the argument, I will say again that the universes have a layered structure. Just like the case with purgatorio, although it is connected to the trinity, it does not exist within said structure. The reason why I bring purgatorio up again, is because the trinity has a very distinct balance.
https://youtu.be/r0VJ0Ub8fXA?t=513
“The three realms our world is divided into--light, darkness, and chaos--have been carefully balanced as the Trinity of Realities, so as not to interfere with one another. Although we say three realms, they originally existed as one. The split caused the balance between the worlds to something be as delicate walking across thin ice. If one realm were to eventually acquire greater power than the others, the balance of the three realms would easily fall into anarchy.”
https://youtu.be/r0VJ0Ub8fXA?t=513
This quote explains to us that the three realms share a very important balance between one another, and interfering with that balance will cause its collapse. Purgatorio is mentioned in this same quote mind you.
https://youtu.be/r0VJ0Ub8fXA?t=513
“There are some with the ability to travel to Purgatorio, the realm between realms, or use the gates to travel back and forth between different realms, sometimes causing chaos and confusion. Irresponsible use of this power can use monumental problems for the Trinity. It can lead to wars between realms and devastating natural disasters. At least, if I'm to believe the words of a certain bartender I've been spending too much time with.”
https://youtu.be/r0VJ0Ub8fXA?t=513
Purgatorio is used to travel between them all, but it isn’t apart of its unique balance. Which is why I keep trying to tell everyone that yes purgatorio is connected to the trinity, but is not one in the same with its unique three layered structure. So why does this matter? It means that new universes can’t just be “introduced” into the trinity, that would offset its balance and result in the collapse. So that means the origin of the universe Jubileus was creating is not a part of that balance, which means it operates under a different space time than the others. Just because it was summoned into the human world doesn’t mean anything, nor does her falling into its sun. Because purgatorio is closely layered to the human world, but isn’t in that structure.

So what makes Muspelheim similar to Purgatorio that would make it included in the Trinity of Realities merge?

Has Muspelheim been shown to occupy the same space-time as the ToR?

Has Muspelheim been shown to and described to affect all three realities?

Has it Muspelheim been referred to as the Center of the Trinity?

Has Muspelheim been referred to as the realm caught in between realities?

Have beings in Muspelheim been shown to affect beings in the ToR while in Muspelheim?

Also we know more about the sphere than you care to admit. It’s the same sphere from the beginning of time, and was the foundation for the current multiverse.

I don't believe I've seen evidence that Jubileus' sphere is a copy of our universe. Kamiya only states the sphere is the "origin of the universe that Jubileus is trying to create" so we don't know what it's actually meant to be but even if it is supposed to be the origin of the ToR that wouldn't matter because it's a mere attempt that obviously failed. That's why Kamiya keeps stating that Jubileus is "trying" and says that she is "young" and still in her "womb". Furthermore it would still only be a Low 2-C feat as it wouldn't include Musepelheim as it isn't a part of the ToR and or the alternate timeline as it didn't exist at the beginning of the ToR.

 

[Comicgyal]

"Kamiya" (Wasn't Kamiya who said it but Jubileus' designer but I think we are saying Kamiya just to keep it short) states that the lightning dimension is a universe. He (Jubileus' designer) interrupts Kamiya to tell us that "When you get inside here (the lightning dimension), you find it's a universe.", something he doesn't say about the lava and ice dimension that appear before the lightning dimension even though he had plenty of time to do so. If each of them were supposed to be universes, he would have no need to only elaborate that the lightning dimension is a universe or he would've said that the same rule applies to the lava and ice dimension. As you can see from the interior and exterior the sphere is nothing close to the size of a universe. The sphere occupies the same space-time as the human world as it can be physically affected by beings outside of the sphere and said sphere is located physically on some far end of our Solar System. The lava and ice dimensions are clearly not either as they are the same size as the sphere without any elements.

You can chock up him not saying they were also universes, because they were talking about different things when they were brought up. In the ice and fire dimension he says it was reminiscent of heaven and earth being created, so it’s not like they don’t have the intention to be universes either, despite him not saying it. He also saved saying it was a universe specifically for an unknown innuendo, not because it was the sole universe out of the three.

It’s not like he gives a drawn out explanation as to why it’s a universe in particular, he simply says “You get inside her and find it’s a universe. (Yeah, a universe) Then inside there..” (Insert innuendo)

The way his colleague passively agreed with him as well doesn’t make it appear like it’s anything special.

By the way, queen Sheba being able to destroy from the human universe doesn’t mean anything either. Unless you can disprove that the introduction of that new universe, was included in the established balance of the trinity, then it exists outside of it. Muspelheim and Purgatorio despite being universes as well aren’t said to be in the balance, so assuming the sphere is, is just a baseless assumption.

"

But let's say, all of these dimensions are universes, why would that make the sphere 2-C? Each dimension disappears after Bayonetta pumbles Jubileus inside of the dimension so that isn't a reason the sphere or feat is 2-C. These dimensions aren't coexisting with one another. This would be no different from creating a universe after a universe is destroyed...a 3-A feat normally unless space-time is included.

Because of how the current universe came to be. Kamiya says it’s the same origin of the universe she was creating, this universe to be exact.
That means them disappearing doesn’t matter, because they exist inside of the sphere automatically. Think of it like this: If the original sphere had Paradiso, inferno, and the human world inside it, but were only present if she summoned them, when it broke apart why would it create three individual universes? The lore explains to use that these universes existed as one, the sphere, and were split into three. Meaning that these universes existed constantly, so that applies to the ones she created. If you say it doesn’t, then it makes no sense for the three universes to exist at all. If the original universes didn’t coexist inside of the sphere, how could destroying it create three separate ones entirely?

So what makes Muspelheim similar to Purgatorio that would make it included in the Trinity of Realities merge?

Has Muspelheim been shown to occupy the same space-time as the ToR?

Has Muspelheim been shown to and described to affect all three realities?

Has it Muspelheim been referred to as the Center of the Trinity?

Has Muspelheim been referred to as the realm caught in between realities?

Have beings in Muspelheim been shown to affect beings in the ToR while in Muspelheim?

1. Because it’s connected to the trinity like purgatorio, via portals and doorways. Proven by lore.

2. No, because it’s a separate space time, doesn’t mean it’s not connected to the trinity though. Just that it isn’t apart of its unique three layered balance.

3&4. No, but that doesn’t matter. Purgatorio is called all of these things, only because it exists in the middle of all of them. But that’s only because it’s used as travel between them, not because it’s in the layered structure.

5. No, but let’s not pretend that beings in purgatorio can affect people in other realms. By lore it says that they cannot do that, multiple times. In Bayonetta 2 everyone around her is invisible, in Bayonetta 1 she says that since she’s in purgatorio, she can’t interfere with humans. So.. why does it matter?

I don't believe I've seen evidence that Jubileus' sphere is a copy of our universe. Kamiya only states the sphere is the "origin of the universe that Jubileus is trying to create" so we don't know what it's actually meant to be but even if it is supposed to be the origin of the ToR that wouldn't matter because it's a mere attempt that obviously failed. That's why Kamiya keeps stating that Jubileus is "trying" and says that she is "young" and still in her "womb". Furthermore it would still only be a Low 2-C feat as it wouldn't include Musepelheim as it isn't a part of the ToR and or the alternate timeline as it didn't exist at the beginning of the ToR.

It doesn’t have to be a copy, and it failing doesn’t matter either. It only failed because Bayonetta beat her up, not because she couldn’t do it. She’s trying to create it while they’re fighting, heaven and earth is being conjured up, but as you see Bayonetta keeps stopping her.

Also I’m led to believe that the dimensions shes creating have their own separate space times, because of the wording used for the ice and fire dimension. A depiction of heaven and earth being created, two different universes, that aren’t bound by that strict balance the trinity abides by.

If you don’t believe that those are dimensions either, the lightning dimension and the sphere itself would count. Since the sphere is called a universe, and the lightning dimension is as well.

Btw, even if you don’t believe that, and insist that the sphere is inside of the trinity, it still isn’t apart of the structure.. meaning it would simply be connected to the trinity like Muspelheim is, therefore giving it the 2-C it needs by that logic.

Also what do you mean? The alternate timeline wasn’t created when the ToR was formed, that happened late into the game lol

 

[Comicgyal]

Staff feel free to ask questions while we discuss as well, so it isn’t a back and forth between us two again.

 

[Dienomite22]

You can chock up him not saying they were also universes, because they were talking about different things when they were brought up. In the ice and fire dimension he says it was reminiscent of heaven and earth being created, so it’s not like they don’t have the intention to be universes either, despite him not saying it. He also saved saying it was a universe specifically for an unknown innuendo, not because it was the sole universe out of the three.

It’s not like he gives a drawn out explanation as to why it’s a universe in particular, he simply says “You get inside her and find it’s a universe. (Yeah, a universe) Then inside there..” (Insert innuendo)

The way his colleague passively agreed with him as well doesn’t make it appear like it’s anything special.

By the way, queen Sheba being able to destroy from the human universe doesn’t mean anything either. Unless you can disprove that the introduction of that new universe, was included in the established balance of the trinity, then it exists outside of it. Muspelheim and Purgatorio despite being universes as well aren’t said to be in the balance, so assuming the sphere is, is just a baseless assumption.

Them talking about different things when they were brought up doesn't matter as he already interrupted Kamiya just to say the lightning dimension is a universe, had plenty of time to say that the lava and ice dimensions were universes during their segments and he could've confirmed that the lava and ice dimensions are universes after saying the lightning dimension was. The ice, lava and lightning dimensions designs were used to "conjure an image of heaven and earth being created" not that all are literally that which is why Kamiya keeps stressing that Jubileus is trying to create the universe she wishes to, not that she did.

I'm don't think the statement being an innuendo means anything, if anything it makes the universe statement less reliable but that's beside the point. The man only calls the lightning dimension a universe and that's that. We don't know the reason behind the laughing or the reason behind the statement and we can't assume he meant the other dimensions are as well and he just decided not to say it.

Queen Sheba destroying the sphere is key. The lore can state whatever but you are saying that the sphere is a separate space-time outside of the ToR while ignoring that it is literally shown to be in the human universe, abide by the ToR's space-time, and was physically destroyed by a punch outside of it. Either you are interpreting the lore wrong or the entire sequence breaks the lore and you're right. There is no compromise here.

Because of how the current universe came to be. Kamiya says it’s the same origin of the universe she was creating, this universe to be exact.
That means them disappearing doesn’t matter, because they exist inside of the sphere automatically. Think of it like this: If the original sphere had Paradiso, inferno, and the human world inside it, but were only present if she summoned them, when it broke apart why would it create three individual universes? The lore explains to use that these universes existed as one, the sphere, and were split into three. Meaning that these universes existed constantly, so that applies to the ones she created. If you say it doesn’t, then it makes no sense for the three universes to exist at all. If the original universes didn’t coexist inside of the sphere, how could destroying it create three separate ones entirely?


1. Because it’s connected to the trinity like purgatorio, via portals and doorways. Proven by lore.

2. No, because it’s a separate space time, doesn’t mean it’s not connected to the trinity though. Just that it isn’t apart of its unique three layered balance.

3&4. No, but that doesn’t matter. Purgatorio is called all of these things, only because it exists in the middle of all of them. But that’s only because it’s used as travel between them, not because it’s in the layered structure.

5. No, but let’s not pretend that beings in purgatorio can affect people in other realms. By lore it says that they cannot do that, multiple times. In Bayonetta 2 everyone around her is invisible, in Bayonetta 1 she says that since she’s in purgatorio, she can’t interfere with humans. So.. why does it matter?

The original universe wasn't Paradiso, Inferno, and the human world. The Trinity universes didn't exist until the split happen. Some unknown event happened that split the original universe into three different universes. The original sphere was one mega universe. It's simple really. Jubileus' sphere isn't a big mega universe like the original sphere as the ice, lava, and lightning dimensions aren't one big universe therefore not comparable.

1. Purgatorio isn't simply connected by portals and doorways. And being connected by portals doesn't mean Muspelhiem would be affected by the merging.

"It’s said that Lumen Sages and Umbra Witches had the unique ability to pass into a realm known as Purgatorio, and travel amongst the Trinity."

"In case of emergency, the witches placed these materials within Purgatorio, a realm caught in-between the Trinity of Realities, in which the items are said to still remain."

"There are some with the ability to travel to Purgatorio, the realm between realms, or use the gates to travel back and forth between different realms..."

2. My point exactly. Purgatorio isn't a separate space-time unlike Muspelheim so they aren't similar in this aspect.

3. & 4. This does matter because it shows Purgatorio's relationship with the Trinity, a relationship that Muspelheim is never stated or shown to have.

5. Except Bayonetta and angels have been shown to affect humans and objects in the human world while in Purgatorio. Bayonetta touches Luka multiple times from Purgatorio, Bayonetta is reflected in the human world's mirrors from Purgatorio and can shoot them, Luka can smell and hear Bayonetta while she is in Purgatorio.

Now what is the reasoning behind Muspelheim being apart of the Trinity merge?

It doesn’t have to be a copy, and it failing doesn’t matter either. It only failed because Bayonetta beat her up, not because she couldn’t do it. She’s trying to create it while they’re fighting, heaven and earth is being conjured up, but as you see Bayonetta keeps stopping her.

Also I’m led to believe that the dimensions shes creating have their own separate space times, because of the wording used for the ice and fire dimension. A depiction of heaven and earth being created, two different universes, that aren’t bound by that strict balance the trinity abides by.

If you don’t believe that those are dimensions either, the lightning dimension and the sphere itself would count. Since the sphere is called a universe, and the lightning dimension is as well.

Pretty much covered this.

Btw, even if you don’t believe that, and insist that the sphere is inside of the trinity, it still isn’t apart of the structure.. meaning it would simply be connected to the trinity like Muspelheim is, therefore giving it the 2-C it needs by that logic.

Also what do you mean? The alternate timeline wasn’t created when the ToR was formed, that happened late into the game lol

Except the sphere shares the same space-time as the trinity unlike Muspelheim which is outside of the trinity and has it's own time and space. Therefore the sphere is not "like Muspelheim" so the logic would not apply to it.

That's literally what I said.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sir_Ovens @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest

What do you think that we should do here based on the above arguments?

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps somebody can write an explanation of the different arguments to help simplify things for our staff to evaluate?

 

[Comicgyal]

I can simplify my argument yet again, although reading through everything throughly to get the best opinion would probably be best. Give me around 30 minutes or so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Bump...

 

[Comicgyal]

Lol sorry it’s been more than 30 minutes, anyways I recommend tagging staff now anyways. I can’t simplify things more than this, and what’s in the blog, or else some information might not be understood. I can give clarification though for any questions they may have.

You can chock up him not saying they were also universes, because they were talking about different things when they were brought up. In the ice and fire dimension he says it was reminiscent of heaven and earth being created, so it’s not like they don’t have the intention to be universes either, despite him not saying it. He also saved saying it was a universe specifically for an unknown innuendo, not because it was the sole universe out of the three.

It’s not like he gives a drawn out explanation as to why it’s a universe in particular, he simply says “You get inside her and find it’s a universe. (Yeah, a universe) Then inside there..” (Insert innuendo)

The way his colleague passively agreed with him as well doesn’t make it appear like it’s anything special.

By the way, queen Sheba being able to destroy from the human universe doesn’t mean anything either. Unless you can disprove that the introduction of that new universe, was included in the established balance of the trinity, then it exists outside of it. Muspelheim and Purgatorio despite being universes as well aren’t said to be in the balance, so assuming the sphere is, is just a baseless assumption.

Because of how the current universe came to be. Kamiya says it’s the same origin of the universe she was creating, this universe to be exact.
That means them disappearing doesn’t matter, because they exist inside of the sphere automatically. Think of it like this: If the original sphere had Paradiso, inferno, and the human world inside it, but were only present if she summoned them, when it broke apart why would it create three individual universes? The lore explains to use that these universes existed as one, the sphere, and were split into three. Meaning that these universes existed constantly, so that applies to the ones she created. If you say it doesn’t, then it makes no sense for the three universes to exist at all. If the original universes didn’t coexist inside of the sphere, how could destroying it create three separate ones entirely?


1. Because it’s connected to the trinity like purgatorio, via portals and doorways. Proven by lore.

2. No, because it’s a separate space time, doesn’t mean it’s not connected to the trinity though. Just that it isn’t apart of its unique three layered balance.

3&4. No, but that doesn’t matter. Purgatorio is called all of these things, only because it exists in the middle of all of them. But that’s only because it’s used as travel between them, not because it’s in the layered structure.

5. No, but let’s not pretend that beings in purgatorio can affect people in other realms. By lore it says that they cannot do that, multiple times. In Bayonetta 2 everyone around her is invisible, in Bayonetta 1 she says that since she’s in purgatorio, she can’t interfere with humans. So.. why does it matter?


It doesn’t have to be a copy, and it failing doesn’t matter either. It only failed because Bayonetta beat her up, not because she couldn’t do it. She’s trying to create it while they’re fighting, heaven and earth is being conjured up, but as you see Bayonetta keeps stopping her.

Also I’m led to believe that the dimensions shes creating have their own separate space times, because of the wording used for the ice and fire dimension. A depiction of heaven and earth being created, two different universes, that aren’t bound by that strict balance the trinity abides by.

If you don’t believe that those are dimensions either, the lightning dimension and the sphere itself would count. Since the sphere is called a universe, and the lightning dimension is as well.

Btw, even if you don’t believe that, and insist that the sphere is inside of the trinity, it still isn’t apart of the structure.. meaning it would simply be connected to the trinity like Muspelheim is, therefore giving it the 2-C it needs by that logic.

Also what do you mean? The alternate timeline wasn’t created when the ToR was formed, that happened late into the game lol

 

[Antvasima]

@Sir_Ovens @DarkDragonMedeus @KingTempest

What do you think that we should do here based on the above post?