Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I thought I already gave my thoughts, but I believe Comicgyal is making more sense.

 

[KingTempest]

What DDM said

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Sorry it took so long for me to actually comment here. Regardless, I find Comic to be making more sense here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Somebody should probably apply her suggestions then.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I'm pretty sure we aren't done yet Ant. If thats enough staff input, thats only approval regarding 2-C for the one eye wielders and those who scale to them. The witch time revisions have had no disagreements, so that's probably approved as well. I think we've settled the removal of possibly for the top tiers, so that still leaves us with discussing 2-A Aesir.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can somebody please write down explanations for the remaining issues that we need to decide then?

 

[Comicgyal]

Thank you everyone, but yes now there’s 2-A, I’ll write the stuff from the blog!

 

[Comicgyal]

The reasoning for 2-A comes from Aesir, and his statements about observing infinite possibilities. Although it says possibilities, it's rather easy to prove that they were infact infinite timelines. "“Possessing the power of an overseer he existed in a dimension different than our own, watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form our world from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space.”

(Cont) The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

From these quotes we're told that Aesir possesses the power to oversee over the world, and with both eyes he oversaw the infinite possibilities that layered to form history. Although it says world, in the verse the term "World" is used to describe universes. Taking Lukas quote as example: "“Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. “

Aesirs own entry states: “For someone who can travel through time and space, to take back the powers of the Overseer is to control the fate of the entire world across all time. "

These quotes tell us that World is synonymous with universe, and that Aesir could affect the universes across all time and space. This lines up with his initial quote, which says he watched infinite possibilities layer to form our world across all time. Even if you say that these possibilities are just possibilities that formed one world, what Aesir observes becomes realities themselves.

“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

Proving that the observed possibilities become realities, and these realities are infinite in number. Realities is also synonymous with universe,, thanks to Kamiya confirming it. He says in Bayonetta 1 that their events created an alternate reality, that reality having a separate space-time from the main one. The eyes can look through past, present and future. Aesir can access all infinite timelines through history and oversee them, which gives him that tier.

The biggest things to realize here are that:
1. Aesir observes these infinite possibilities, and because he observes them Aesir can control said possibilities.
2. His observations are what created the world and everything in it.
3. He transcends these possibilities.
4. Words such as world, possibilities, reality, etc are synonymous with universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks for the explanation. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Neutral on 2-A.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Neutral on 2-A as well

 

[Antvasima]

The reasoning for 2-A comes from Aesir, and his statements about observing infinite possibilities. Although it says possibilities, it's rather easy to prove that they were infact infinite timelines. "“Possessing the power of an overseer he existed in a dimension different than our own, watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form our world from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space.”

(Cont) The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

From these quotes we're told that Aesir possesses the power to oversee over the world, and with both eyes he oversaw the infinite possibilities that layered to form history. Although it says world, in the verse the term "World" is used to describe universes. Taking Lukas quote as example: "“Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. “

Aesirs own entry states: “For someone who can travel through time and space, to take back the powers of the Overseer is to control the fate of the entire world across all time. "

These quotes tell us that World is synonymous with universe, and that Aesir could affect the universes across all time and space. This lines up with his initial quote, which says he watched infinite possibilities layer to form our world across all time. Even if you say that these possibilities are just possibilities that formed one world, what Aesir observes becomes realities themselves.

“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

Proving that the observed possibilities become realities, and these realities are infinite in number. Realities is also synonymous with universe,, thanks to Kamiya confirming it. He says in Bayonetta 1 that their events created an alternate reality, that reality having a separate space-time from the main one. The eyes can look through past, present and future. Aesir can access all infinite timelines through history and oversee them, which gives him that tier.

The biggest things to realize here are that:
1. Aesir observes these infinite possibilities, and because he observes them Aesir can control said possibilities.
2. His observations are what created the world and everything in it.
3. He transcends these possibilities.
4. Words such as world, possibilities, reality, etc are synonymous with universe.

@KingTempest @DarkDragonMedeus @Dragonmasterxyz

What do you think about this?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

The biggest things to realize here are that:
1. Aesir observes these infinite possibilities, and because he observes them Aesir can control said possibilities.
2. His observations are what created the world and everything in it.
3. He transcends these possibilities.
4. Words such as world, possibilities, reality, etc are synonymous with universe.

The words "world" and "reality" are well established as being synonymous with universe in the Bayonetta verse, I agree on that, but I'm not sure when it was ever established that "possibilities" is synonymous with universe.

 

[Comicgyal]

The words "world" and "reality" are well established as being synonymous with universe in the Bayonetta verse, I agree on that, but I'm not sure when it was ever established that "possibilities" is synonymous with universe.

I’m saying that they’re being used in the same synonymous way as world and reality, due to the context of the excerpt it’s frame. Since the book is explaining how Aesir is god and rules over the universe, then says that he also rules over the infinite possibilities in his other dimension.

But you’re right.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agreed with 2-C being a minimum, but I have similar thoughts to Crimson that "Possibilities" is fairly vague in nature. Though if "Infinite possibilities" is paired with an "there are as many worlds as their are possibilities" statement, then it would confirm 2-A. But wasn't sure if there is such a statement here.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

By the way, Qliphoth_Bacikal did a translation of Aesir's Hierarchy of the Laguna's entry in Japanese here. To help out, I'll copy and paste the translation here:

ラグナ位階論

混沌の神

エーシル

光と闇と混沌。

原初より分かたれた三つの世界のうち、混沌を統べる存在、それがエーシルである。

「歴史の観測者」たる力を持ったエーシルは、我々とは全く違う次元に生き、起こり得る複数の可能性が同時に重なり合った状態の歴史を、時空を超越した視点から観測していたとされる。

「エーシル」という名は、人類の言葉で「神」を表すが、信仰や崇拝、教導や理想の念によるものではなく、単に人類にとって一切の理解が及ばない超自然の存在に対し、他に表現する言葉が見当たらなかったために用いられた、というのが実際のところであろう。

そしてノアトゥーンに残る伝承が真実ならば、この混沌の神を、「ロキ」「ロプト」という2つの“人格”に分裂せしめたのは、人類自身である。

エーシルは自らの“世界の目”の力を人類に与え、それにより人類は「選択」の概念を得た。しかしそれは同時に「勝利」と「敗北」、「真実」と「虚偽」の概念をも生み出すこととなった。

憎しみ、裏切り、嫉妬、嘲り。「選択」の概念は瞬く間に人類の間で麻薬のように消費され、やがて人類に力を与えたエーシル自身も、再び力を求める強い情念を呼び覚ました。

Laguna Hierarchy
God of Chaos
Aesir

Light, Darkness, and Chaos.

Of the three worlds that have been divided since the start of time, Aesir was the ruler of Chaos.

Aesir possessed the power of being an "observer of history", and was said to live in a dimension different from ours, observing history from a perspective that transcends time and space, where multiple possibilities overlap simultaneously.

The name "Aesir" meant "God" in human language, but it was not one of faith, worship, teachings, or ideals. Rather, there wasn't any other word that could describe a supernatural being who was beyond human comprehension.

And if the traditions that remain in Nóatún are true, it was mankind that split this God of Chaos into two "personalities": Loki, and Loptr.

Aesir gave his power, the "Eyes of the World" to mankind, and with it, they obtained the concept of "choice". At the same time, however, this too gave birth to concepts of "victory" and "defeat", "truth" and "deception".

Hatred, betrayal, jealousy, and mockery. The concept of "choice" was quickly consumed by mankind like a drug, and eventually, Aesir himself, who had given this power to mankind, reawakened a strong desire for that power.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yeah, there isn’t such a statement, but Qlipoths translation did give us the “Overlapping simultaneously” part, which is most likely what was happening in the background of the Aesir battle, since it took place in said dimension.

In the battle you see that behind you, are different points areas from the story (10:16 onwards) which are floating around, and existing at the same time like the quote says. Since they’re showcasing different events in the story, I’m led to believe that these alternate “possibilities” are infact worlds, but it’s up to interpretation. I am fine with a possibly being added to the tier if that would do some justice.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

"“Possessing the power of an overseer he existed in a dimension different than our own, watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form our world from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space.”

(Cont) The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

Yeah, ok world being universe isn't the thing being contested. It's the fact that world was used as a singular word, and so was time. This could easily mean the fate of one universe across all of that one universe's time. Also you have to prove that those possibilities are real and not just would-be outcomes.

Edit: Also all the Aseir statements have nothing to do with Kamiya's statement of Bayonetta creating an alternate timeline when she went back in time. Possibilities are not universes, they're just events that make up the one universe the main series takes place in. Your statement even solidifies that these possibilities exist in only one timeline.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Ovens and Medeus.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yeah, ok world being universe isn't the thing being contested. It's the fact that world was used as a singular word, and so was time. This could easily mean the fate of one universe across all of that one universe's time. Also you have to prove that those possibilities are real and not just would-be outcomes.

These possibilities are real, proven from the post above. The snapshots of different backgrounds are the possibilities themselves, and are clearly not just a would be.

Yeah, there isn’t such a statement, but Qlipoths translation did give us the “Overlapping simultaneously” part, which is most likely what was happening in the background of the Aesir battle, since it took place in said dimension.

In the battle you see that behind you, are different points areas from the story (10:16 onwards) which are floating around, and existing at the same time like the quote says. Since they’re showcasing different events in the story, I’m led to believe that these alternate “possibilities” are infact worlds, but it’s up to interpretation. I am fine with a possibly being added to the tier if that would do some justice.

As for use of world singular, it’s likely that it could be referring to all three and not just the one. World is sometimes used in a singular sense in the lore, despite it referencing more than one universe. Like in the legend of Aesir where Luka says “No one knows where the world came from.” Despite him talking about all three of them. A bit inconsistent but that’s how it is at times.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Could you link the video with all the snapshots please? Or were you referring to Kamiya's commentary?

If it's Aseir's boss fight that's completely speculation. We don't have hard evidence that Aesir creates real universes through possibilities. Equating Bayo's experience to Aesir's powers is reaching since they were two seperate events.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Sir Ovens' sense of judgement.

 

[Comicgyal]

Could you link the video with all the snapshots please? Or were you referring to Kamiya's commentary?

If it's Aseir's boss fight that's completely speculation. We don't have hard evidence that Aesir creates real universes through possibilities. Equating Bayo's experience to Aesir's powers is reaching since they were two seperate events.

The video is here, it starts 10 minutes in. Bayonettas experience isn’t really reaching, since Aesir himself states that he reclaimed the peak of his power that the book is discussing. They’re not separate events per say, just the book telling us the nature of his power, then Aesir showing us that power again.

I understand that though, aside from the books stating what he observes become reality (the universe) and the nature of the books description itself. However I don’t believe that the evidence is lackluster enough, to discard it entirely. There is logical room for assumption and interpretation, that these possibilities are indeed universes themselves.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The reasoning for 2-A comes from Aesir, and his statements about observing infinite possibilities. Although it says possibilities, it's rather easy to prove that they were infact infinite timelines. "“Possessing the power of an overseer he existed in a dimension different than our own, watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form our world from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space.”

(Cont) The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

From these quotes we're told that Aesir possesses the power to oversee over the world, and with both eyes he oversaw the infinite possibilities that layered to form history. Although it says world, in the verse the term "World" is used to describe universes. Taking Lukas quote as example: "“Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos. Obviously, our world was the one born from chaos. The three worlds all needed rulers. Most of all, ours. And the one that ruled the chaos became known as Aesir. “

Aesirs own entry states: “For someone who can travel through time and space, to take back the powers of the Overseer is to control the fate of the entire world across all time. "

These quotes tell us that World is synonymous with universe, and that Aesir could affect the universes across all time and space. This lines up with his initial quote, which says he watched infinite possibilities layer to form our world across all time. Even if you say that these possibilities are just possibilities that formed one world, what Aesir observes becomes realities themselves.

“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

Proving that the observed possibilities become realities, and these realities are infinite in number. Realities is also synonymous with universe,, thanks to Kamiya confirming it. He says in Bayonetta 1 that their events created an alternate reality, that reality having a separate space-time from the main one. The eyes can look through past, present and future. Aesir can access all infinite timelines through history and oversee them, which gives him that tier.

The biggest things to realize here are that:
1. Aesir observes these infinite possibilities, and because he observes them Aesir can control said possibilities.
2. His observations are what created the world and everything in it.
3. He transcends these possibilities.
4. Words such as world, possibilities, reality, etc are synonymous with universe.

You're conflating observing possibilities with creating worlds. These are two separate powers that don't have a link between them. Mind you, this is from your quotes and evidence. I just don't see a link without mental gymnastics in place.

Those infinite possibilities created one world. Even if you believe that one world is the Trinity of Worlds, that still means infinite 'ifs' create a single construct. Hell, I'm not even sure if Bayonetta's AU is a separate human timeline or the whole Trinity of Worlds timeline (Unless you have proof that each world has its own space-time in which case I missed it and disregard this statement).

If we dissect your three statements individually, we start to see that there's no connection whatsoever.

"“Possessing the power of an overseer he existed in a dimension different than our own, watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form our world from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space.”
(Cont) The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

“For someone who can travel through time and space, to take back the powers of the Overseer is to control the fate of the entire world across all time."

“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

If you look at these quotes without the conflation, it really becomes clear that none of these sentences have anything to do with Aesir creating infinite worlds. I don't think I can illustrate this any clearer.

The video is here, it starts 10 minutes in. Bayonettas experience isn’t really reaching, since Aesir himself states that he reclaimed the peak of his power that the book is discussing. They’re not separate events per say, just the book telling us the nature of his power, then Aesir showing us that power again.

I understand that though, aside from the books stating what he observes become reality (the universe) and the nature of the books description itself. However I don’t believe that the evidence is lackluster enough, to discard it entirely. There is logical room for assumption and interpretation, that these possibilities are indeed universes themselves.

This means nothing really, since again, you're not telling me these things literally correlate. You're telling me they could correlate if we look hard enough, but that's not how we do things here.

 

[Antvasima]

Ovens still makes sense to me.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m still neutral on 2-A, but I’m assuming Cereza showing up to see Adult Bayonetta was one of many possibilities, which created a separate universe, which goes on to say there other possibilities. This is an assumption that holds no water, 2-C is still far more logical and consistent.

 

[Comicgyal]

You're conflating observing possibilities with creating worlds. These are two separate powers that don't have a link between them. Mind you, this is from your quotes and evidence. I just don't see a link without mental gymnastics in place.

Those infinite possibilities created one world. Even if you believe that one world is the Trinity of Worlds, that still means infinite 'ifs' create a single construct. Hell, I'm not even sure if Bayonetta's AU is a separate human timeline or the whole Trinity of Worlds timeline (Unless you have proof that each world has its own space-time in which case I missed it and disregard this statement).

Allow me to elaborate then, because the established world created, and the infinite possibilities are the ones without correlation. The Bayonetta multiverse as we know it was created by Jubileus, the sphere next to here contained the multiverse we know of.

In Aesirs book it says that he “Existed in a dimension different than our own, watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form history from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space.”

The Japanese translation says that “Aesir possessed the power of being an "observer of history", and was said to live in a dimension different from ours, observing history from a perspective that transcends time and space, where multiple possibilities overlap simultaneously.”

The constant here is the use of the word history, and the fact that he is being called an observer of such. Because of that, saying that the quotes share no correlation is false. Infact one quote directly links it all:

“For someone who can travel through time and space, to take back the powers of the Overseer is to control the fate of the entire world across all time."”

Aesir is an overseer of history, and those possibilities he watched over are described as such. These infinite possibilities didn’t create one world, it’s because of these infinite possibilities that other worlds can just casually be created from small differences. One notable one being in the main timeline, where changing something in the past, created an entirely different alternate timeline-universe.

Because all other timelines contain eyes of the world, that means Aesir himself exists in these. But not simultaneously, because at the end of Bayonetta 2 Aesir in a weakened state was going to escape to a different timeline in order to recover. (16:44)

Because of the verses unique balance, two Aesirs cannot exist in the same timeline anyways, especially if that Aesir was going to reclaim his power. Therefore it is only logical to assume that Aesir before he lost his power governed not only over the main timeline, but every other branching timeline, which are all canon to the main story. Which brings us back over to the quote from his book once again.

“watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form history”

These timelines are history, and are what Aesir governed over and oversaw.

This means nothing really, since again, you're not telling me these things literally correlate. You're telling me they could correlate if we look hard enough, but that's not how we do things here.

I am infact telling you that when Aesir and Bayonetta fight, the snapshots behind us are infact those possibilities that are described to overlap inside of his dimension.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Iffy on 2-A personally. I think it's just better to go for 2-C for the same reasons as Milly

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Aesir is an overseer of history, and those possibilities he watched over are described as such. These infinite possibilities didn’t create one world, it’s because of these infinite possibilities that other worlds can just casually be created from small differences. One notable one being in the main timeline, where changing something in the past, created an entirely different alternate timeline-universe.

This is the part I take issue with. Where is the link that Bayonetta's AU is in anyway connected to Aesir's power? I'm not doubting that a new universe was created from Bayonetta's altered timeline, I'm doubting that that has anything to do with Aesir directly since you cannot assume that event is a "possibility" without direct proof.

Unless you can pull out exact images out of Aesir's boss fight that prove that Bayo's AU exists within the walls of said fight, you don't have a link at all.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like we should go with 2-C then. Thank you to everybody who have helped out.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

A couple of things before we begin applying revisions and prepare to close this.

1.) Even though 2-A was rejected, it at the very least qualifies for cosmic awareness, and as such it should be added to Aesir’s profile, and potentially other Eyes of the World holders as well.

2.) Could we clarify real quick how many universes into 2-C the verse scales to, and if there’s a difference between how many universes the god tiers scale to (aesir, full power jub, Sheba, and omne) and if it’s a different amount from what the high tiers scale to (Bayonetta, Balder, Jeanne, Alrune, Loptr, etc)?

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m going to do a bit more looking and translations for the 2-A stuff, so I’ll put that on hold for now.

As for 2-C, one eye wielders scale to 2-C via 4universes, and the god tiers scale via 10. Since it’s the main three realities, purgatorio, Muspelheim, then the same universes in the alternate universe. (I think I said that right)

 

[Sir_Ovens]

That's agreeable.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

As for 2-C, one eye wielders scale to 2-C via 4universes, and the god tiers scale via 10. Since it’s the main three realities, purgatorio, Muspelheim, then the same universes in the alternate universe. (I think I said that right)

Did you mean to say 5 for the one eye wielders?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Sounds good.

 

[Comicgyal]

Did you mean to say 5 for the one eye wielders?

Yeah lol

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Okay then, thanks for clarifying. Does anyone have an issue with single eye wielders scaling to 5 universes into 2-C and the gods scaling to 10?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Also @Comicgyal could you make a quick 3 sentence or less write up justifying Weakened Jubileus being 2-C so we can put it on the profile?

After that we can start applying revisions.

 

[Comicgyal]

Low Multiverse level (Was going to overwrite the current multiverse, with the ones created in her sphere.)

Or

Low Multiverse level (While weakened, Jubileus was capable of creating four universes that existed simultaneously.)

Something like that

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I suppose its fine to start going through with the revisions then?