Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah it's unclear to me as well.

I was asked something about this on my wall here, and I gave as much input as I possibly could.

But with Dienomite's opinion, I'm not fully sure which side I reside on

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

@Dienomite22

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Comicgyal]

I can give some further counter points to his argument, I’ll go ahead and do that.

• Muspelheim

There really isn’t a lack of evidence cr for Muspelheim, and it fits the category for a universe in vs battle standards. As far as Bayonetta goes however, Muspelheim is categorized as a universe. In Bayonettas lore universes are called “worlds” or “realities” there is not any instance to which any of the universes are called such, ill give an example.

“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

Here is a direct usage of the word “World” when referencing the universe. In Aesirs case it represents the human universe Chaos. Here is what Muspelheim says.

“ I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time. “

It is also called a world, and therefore is a universe in Bayonettas own lore definition. It’s just that simple. Not to mention that it is a dimension with space time, and galaxies and a sun. That’s more than enough proof for it to be a universe by our standards, correct me if I’m wrong. It not being called a “Universe” is.. whatever? Paradiso is never called a “Universe” inferno isn’t called a Universe either, they’re referred to as realities/worlds. So that isn’t an argument against Muspelheim.

The reason why it would be included in the merging, is because Muspelheim is connected to the Trinity like all of the others. In its own quote:

“Have you ever heard of a doorway between this world and other realms? It may sound strange, but there are actually many such entrances in this world we live in. The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known, so if you're reading this, you've probably heard of them.”

These doorways are the gates to each reality, they are all connected.

“I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time.”

Here it explains that Muspelheim is a newfound gate, that also connects the realities to it. Which is why angels demons and witches are present there. Muspelheim isn’t a part of the trinitys structure, but is connected to the trinity itself. That is why when the trinity is merged, Muspelheim will follow.

I will only tackle this portion of his counter argument, to see what the consensus will be after this.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

To ask for more clarification, if Muselpheim assumed to be universal sized space-time and is included in ToR merge then what lvl of 2C would it be??
Cuz the way I have undertood is that the ToR is a macrocosm of 3 realms sharing same single space-time. And only Muselpheim is separate from it. So it will be baseline merge right, Merger of 2 space-times?

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, but that’s only to show that the base merging would have also been 2-C without adding the timeline. However we could say this doesn’t necessarily matter, since Muspelheim isn’t the justification for 2-C one eye wielders. It’s the sphere, and the universes created inside them.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Okay, I think I understand.
Just to make things easier I think you should rate each of your proposed feats in ""exact number of universes "" just to make other people reading it understand it easier, since most people I think aren't knowledgeable on the verse like myself.

 

[Comicgyal]

What do you mean by numbers of universes?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

What do you mean by numbers of universes?

Tier 2 is a expansive tier. Ranging from 1 to infinity, its user friendly to list number of space-times affected in such feats for easier analysis.
Like for example mentioning whether how many space-times are involved in merger or creation e.g 2 or 3 or 4 or however many.
It also helps in identifying different tier 2 feats by their numericals.

 

[Dienomite22]

I can give some further counter points to his argument, I’ll go ahead and do that.

• Muspelheim

There really isn’t a lack of evidence cr for Muspelheim, and it fits the category for a universe in vs battle standards. As far as Bayonetta goes however, Muspelheim is categorized as a universe. In Bayonettas lore universes are called “worlds” or “realities” there is not any instance to which any of the universes are called such, ill give an example.

“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

Here is a direct usage of the word “World” when referencing the universe. In Aesirs case it represents the human universe Chaos. Here is what Muspelheim says.

“ I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time. “

It is also called a world, and therefore is a universe in Bayonettas own lore definition. It’s just that simple. Not to mention that it is a dimension with space time, and galaxies and a sun. That’s more than enough proof for it to be a universe by our standards, correct me if I’m wrong. It not being called a “Universe” is.. whatever? Paradiso is never called a “Universe” inferno isn’t called a Universe either, they’re referred to as realities/worlds. So that isn’t an argument against Muspelheim.

The Trinity of Realities doesn't need to be called universes because we know the universe in Bayonetta was one single universe at one point that was split into three-layered universes of which includes our universe and two others that all mirror each other. Muspelheim doesn't have such history or implication besides being called a "world" once, which is not enough to be deemed a universe and in my opinion, is too large of a leap.

And I'm sorry but I must ask, where are the galaxies inside Muspelheim? I have seen nothing but just a starry sky backdrop.

The reason why it would be included in the merging, is because Muspelheim is connected to the Trinity like all of the others. In its own quote:

“Have you ever heard of a doorway between this world and other realms? It may sound strange, but there are actually many such entrances in this world we live in. The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known, so if you're reading this, you've probably heard of them.”

These doorways are the gates to each reality, they are all connected.

“I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time.”

Here it explains that Muspelheim is a newfound gate, that also connects the realities to it. Which is why angels demons and witches are present there. Muspelheim isn’t a part of the trinitys structure, but is connected to the trinity itself. That is why when the trinity is merged, Muspelheim will follow.

I will only tackle this portion of his counter argument, to see what the consensus will be after this.

These quotes all together introduce a couple of ideas. One idea is that Muspelheim is just a piece of space within one of the ToR worlds. "The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known" implies such an idea and would mean Muspelheim is just a slice of one of the worlds that are cut off from time. Another idea is that Muspelheim is merely connected to the ToR by a gate/portal which doesn't mean that it is included in the merge. The reason why angels and demons are there because Luka explained that such portals exist all over the ToR as we know because Bayonetta encounters portals to Muspelheim. But that doesn't mean Muspelheim is necessarily connected to the ToR in a way that it would be affected by the merge if it is indeed its own pocket dimension outside of the ToR.

 

[Comicgyal]

The Trinity of Realities doesn't need to be called universes because we know the universe in Bayonetta was one single universe at one point that was split into three-layered universes of which includes our universe and two others that all mirror each other. Muspelheim doesn't have such history or implication besides being called a "world" once, which is not enough to be deemed a universe and in my opinion, is too large of a leap.

And I'm sorry but I must ask, where are the galaxies inside Muspelheim? I have seen nothing but just a starry sky backdrop.

These quotes all together introduce a couple of ideas. One idea is that Muspelheim is just a piece of space within one of the ToR worlds. "The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known" implies such an idea and would mean Muspelheim is just a slice of one of the worlds that are cut off from time. Another idea is that Muspelheim is merely connected to the ToR by a gate/portal which doesn't mean that it is included in the merge. The reason why angels and demons are there because Luka explained that such portals exist all over the ToR as we know because Bayonetta encounters portals to Muspelheim. But that doesn't mean Muspelheim is necessarily connected to the ToR in a way that it would be affected by the merge if it is indeed its own pocket dimension outside of the ToR.

Just because the original universe was split, that doesn’t give the automatic assumption that the three realms are universes in size either. It honestly isn’t much of a leap, when the verse uses specific wording in its lore for world building you really can’t ignore that. Looks very dishonest to accept the other uses of the word “World” for other universes, but suddenly throw it away when it talks about a different one.

These quotes all together introduce a couple of ideas. One idea is that Muspelheim is just a piece of space within one of the ToR worlds. "The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known" implies such an idea and would mean Muspelheim is just a slice of one of the worlds that are cut off from time. Another idea is that Muspelheim is merely connected to the ToR by a gate/portal which doesn't mean that it is included in the merge. The reason why angels and demons are there because Luka explained that such portals exist all over the ToR as we know because Bayonetta encounters portals to Muspelheim. But that doesn't mean Muspelheim is necessarily connected to the ToR in a way that it would be affected by the merge if it is indeed its own pocket dimension outside of the ToR.

1. The quote you referenced are in regards to the already pre-existing gates, and not to Muspelheim. In the quote it says that Muspelheim is a new gate, so it’s not a piece of the three we know.

2. That’s a good argument, however Muspelheim in this case is much like purgatorio. It itself isn’t included in the trinity’s layers, it exists in the middle of it all but isn’t bound by the structure. However Purgatorio is believed to be apart of the merging, despite it only being accessible by portals like Muspelheim. Since there are only 3 gates, and not 4. Same logic would apply to Muspelheim.

 

[Dienomite22]

Just because the original universe was split, that doesn’t give the automatic assumption that the three realms are universes in size either. It honestly isn’t much of a leap, when the verse uses specific wording in its lore for world building you really can’t ignore that. Looks very dishonest to accept the other uses of the word “World” for other universes, but suddenly throw it away when it talks about a different one.

The original universe being split isn't what automatically makes the three realms universe in size, one of the realms being our real-life universe does which means we can assume Paradiso and Inferno are of similar size as well. When making a claim that a dimension is a universe or higher in size it is scrutinized heavily, especially when it's based on a single word such as "world", "realm", "dimension" etc.

1. The quote you referenced are in regards to the already pre-existing gates, and not to Muspelheim. In the quote it says that Muspelheim is a new gate, so it’s not a piece of the three we know.

A new gate doesn't necessarily mean a new dimension/universe or whatever. It very well means that the portal leads to a new place that he was unaware of existing within the three realms, a place he calls Muspelheim. Like how Alfheim has a special name despite being in some location within Paradiso.

2. That’s a good argument, however Muspelheim in this case is much like purgatorio. It itself isn’t included in the trinity’s layers, it exists in the middle of it all but isn’t bound by the structure. However Purgatorio is believed to be apart of the merging, despite it only being accessible by portals like Muspelheim. Since there are only 3 gates, and not 4. Same logic would apply to Muspelheim.

We've had this discussion before and no one agreed with you on this. Purgatorio is in the ToR. Bayonetta and angels can directly affect the realms within the ToR from Purgatorio. Purgatorio is called the center of the ToR and the realm between realms. It is directly connected to the Trinity of Realities. Purgatorio is naturally a part of the merging of the trinity. Unlike Muspelheim which has no such properties, statements, and showings of being like Purgatorio in that aspect if the interpretation that Muspelheim is a dimension outside of the space-time of the ToR is to be believed. They are not comparable and to say the same logic would apply to Muspelheim is baseless.

 

[Comicgyal]

The original universe being split isn't what automatically makes the three realms universe in size, one of the realms being our real-life universe does which means we can assume Paradiso and Inferno are of similar size as well. When making a claim that a dimension is a universe or higher in size it is scrutinized heavily, especially when it's based on a single word such as "world", "realm", "dimension" etc.

But there is no need to scrutinize it, because it fits the category of a universal dimension in our standards from what I’ve seen. It is
1. Directly to as a universe in Bayonettas lore, by use of the word “World” which is constantly used in the series.
2. A universe with starry skies and a sun, with its own spacetime.

A new gate doesn't necessarily mean a new dimension/universe or whatever. It very well means that the portal leads to a new place that he was unaware of existing within the three realms, a place he calls Muspelheim. Like how Alfheim has a special name despite being in some location within Paradiso.

Of course not, but Muspelheim is a primordial world, meaning that it existed from the beginning. The trinity are not referred to as such, so it makes very little sense for it to be only a facet of them. Alfheim is very specifically stated to be a pocket dimension inside Paradiso, Muspelheim is not.

We've had this discussion before and no one agreed with you on this. Purgatorio is in the ToR. Bayonetta and angels can directly affect the realms within the ToR from Purgatorio. Purgatorio is called the center of the ToR and the realm between realms. It is directly connected to the Trinity of Realities. Purgatorio is naturally a part of the merging of the trinity. Unlike Muspelheim which has no such properties, statements, and showings of being like Purgatorio in that aspect if the interpretation that Muspelheim is a dimension outside of the space-time of the ToR is to be believed. They are not comparable and to say the same logic would apply to Muspelheim is baseless.

We discussed it but no one provided sound logic to disprove it. When the WoG says that the three universes are layered, and purgatorio is not included in that, there is no disagreement to be made. Especially when all diagrams show that they’re connected, with purgatorio in the center without such connection.

Purgatorio is connected to the trinity yes, but not within its layered structure. It is connected via gates that hold them together, same goes for Muspelheim. It is a universe that is connected to the trinity via gates, but not included in the layered diagram. They are very similar. It is not “baseless”.

 

[Comicgyal]

Purgatorio:

“One of the unique aspects of the religion in this townis the people's belief that the world is actually made up of three unique realms layered on top of each other – Human World, Inferno, and Paradiso – the Trinity of Realities.

( a very clear cut three layered structure. )

However, the wavelengths of the Spirit Energy in each of these realities is different, and inhabitants of each are unable to interfere with the other's affairs, despite the fact that the worlds are layered. It's said that Lumen Sages and Umbra Witches had the unique ability to pass into a realm known as Purgatorio, and travel amongst the Trinity. It is believed that the witches and sages each made contracts with the masters of the light and dark worlds, and can use special abilities granted to them by their masters.

It is a world connected to the trinity, as in its used to travel amongst the three because the spiritual wavelength between them is different. That does not mean it is a part of the trinity, it’s only a universe connected to it for the sake of travel.

Why would it even be called a “trinity” if there were four.. anyways.

Muspelheim:


“Have you ever heard of a doorway between this world and other realms? It may sound strange, but there are actually many such entrances in this world we live in. The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known, so if you're reading this, you've probably heard of them. It also seems that there are other doors that lead to the secret rooms of the angels.”

( Three gateways, and Alfheim. )

“I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time.”

One new gateway, connected to the trinity although not a part of its structure. So do tell me how are they not similar?

 

[Dienomite22]

But there is no need to scrutinize it, because it fits the category of a universal dimension in our standards from what I’ve seen. It is
1. Directly to as a universe in Bayonettas lore, by use of the word “World” which is constantly used in the series.
2. A universe with starry skies and a sun, with its own spacetime.

It does not. I have posted the standards.
It is never called a universe, only a "world". It has to be called a universe.
A starry sky isn't an automatic indication of a universe. Neither is its own space-time.

Of course not, but Muspelheim is a primordial world, meaning that it existed from the beginning. The trinity are not referred to as such, so it makes very little sense for it to be only a facet of them. Alfheim is very specifically stated to be a pocket dimension inside Paradiso, Muspelheim is not.

This is true. I concede on this point.

We discussed it but no one provided sound logic to disprove it. When the WoG says that the three universes are layered, and purgatorio is not included in that, there is no disagreement to be made. Especially when all diagrams show that they’re connected, with purgatorio in the center without such connection.

Purgatorio is connected to the trinity yes, but not within its layered structure. It is connected via gates that hold them together, same goes for Muspelheim. It is a universe that is connected to the trinity via gates, but not included in the layered diagram. They are very similar. It is not “baseless”.

This point disproves itself. Purgatorio doesn't need to be included in the trio when we see that it's undeniably connected to the ToR by actual showings that it is. You can't say Purgatorio isn't a part of the ToR when its space and time quite literally has showings of affecting the ToR. It doesn't matter if it's not in its layered structure (despite literally being attributed to being a realm in between the layers themselves 3 times in lore). Muspelheim is nothing like Purgatorio so you can't just claim that it would be affected by the merging just a Purgatorio would.

Purgatorio has been shown to occupy the same space-time as the ToR.
Beings in Purgatorio can affect the worlds of the ToRs.
Beings in the ToR can see, smell and hear beings in Purgatorio.
Purgatorio is called the Center of the Trinity, a Realm between realms and a realm caught in between the Trinity of Realities.
Purgatorio is used as a means to travel to between the ToR.

Musepelheim has none of those qualities and is thus not at all comparable.

You are being completely dishonest in saying Muspelheim is anything similar to Purgatorio.

 

[Comicgyal]

It does not. I have posted the standards.
It is never called a universe, only a "world". It has to be called a universe.
A starry sky isn't an automatic indication of a universe. Neither is its own space-time.

And yet it fits the same standards you posted?

• If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
  
  What does Muspelheim say? “I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time.” SO not only does it fit that definition, but it is also reasonable in size from what we have seen.
  

  This point disproves itself. Purgatorio doesn't need to be included in the trio when we see that it's undeniably connected to the ToR by actual showings that it is. You can't say Purgatorio isn't a part of the ToR when its space and time quite literally has showings of affecting the ToR. It doesn't matter if it's not in its layered structure (despite literally being attributed to being a realm in between the layers themselves 3 times in lore). Muspelheim is nothing like Purgatorio so you can't just claim that it would be affected by the merging just a Purgatorio would.
  
  Purgatorio has been shown to occupy the same space-time as the ToR.
  Beings in Purgatorio can affect the worlds of the ToRs.
  Beings in the ToR can see, smell and hear beings in Purgatorio.
  Purgatorio is called the Center of the Trinity, a Realm between realms and a realm caught in between the Trinity of Realities.
  Purgatorio is used as a means to travel to between the ToR.
  
  Musepelheim has none of those qualities and is thus not at all comparable.
  
  You are being completely dishonest in saying Muspelheim is anything similar to Purgatorio.

I agree with you, Purgatorio is connected to the trinity, it’s what I’ve been saying. But my point is that it’s not inside of the layered structure, despite being connected to it. Yet it will still be merged along with the other universes. Yes, beings in purgatorio affect the trinity more than Muspelheim has. It is closely layered to the world of chaos so that much is easy to grasp, but that doesn’t mean Muspelheim doesn’t share the same luxury. It is a realm connected to the trinity, and manifests portals all over the human world that leads to it. The world is connected via a gate (the portals) just like how Paradiso, or inferno is, it’s all the same.

But if the staff have any opinions feel free to say them now. We can’t get much further debating between the two of us again.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It does not. I have posted the standards.
It is never called a universe, only a "world". It has to be called a universe.

This is incredibly false, and dare I say dishonest. Worlds are often synonyms for universe depending on context, and many verses are attributed to this (Persona, TenSura, Fate, and even DMC). If you are going by this logic, then please make a follow up CRT downgrading DMC to Tier 5, which is obviously completely baseless and untrue.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Is this really where we are in this argument?

In Bayonetta 'World' is consistently used to refer to the Universe by the entire cast

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

And please do not retaliate to my post with “DMC has been said to be a universe on multiple occasions so world can apply”, when the first 3 minutes of both game is Luka giving a recap of the cosmology, quite clearly referring to the universe and the Trinity of Realities.

 

[Dienomite22]

This is incredibly false, and dare I say dishonest. Words are often synonyms for universe depending on context, and many verses are attributed to this (Persona, TenSura, Fate, and even DMC). If you are going by this logic, then please make a follow up CRT downgrading DMC to Tier 5, which is obviously completely baseless and untrue.

Yes, depending on the context but what context does Muspelheim has that would conclude that the usage of "world" is referring to it as a universe? It doesn't follow any of the standards that I have already linked. It only has been called a "world" as it's "proof".

And please do not retaliate to my post with “DMC has been said to be a universe on multiple occasions so world can apply”, when the first 3 minutes of both game is Luka giving a recap of the cosmology, quite clearly referring to the universe and the Trinity of Realities.

No need to bring up DMC, as you have said, that has actual instances of the human and demon world being called a universe. If you have read my post you would know why we consider the ToR's universes without the need of them being called universes. Chaos is the human world, designed after our real-life universe, and the other two realities are comparable to it with Paradiso even being bigger. There is no need to question their size when they have actually adequate evidence for it besides being called a "world".

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, depending on the context but what context does Muspelheim has that would conclude that the usage of "world" is referring to it as a universe? It doesn't follow any of the standards that I have already linked. It only has been called a "world" as it's "proof".

The fact that it has the word “Primordial” in front of the word “World” and looking at the definition of primordial..

“existing at or from the beginning of time; primeval.
"the primordial oceans”

Meaning it existed either when Jubileus was originally creating the multiverse, or when the multiverse was split apart. Which.. either way means it was apart of the origin universes, and isn’t just a mere dimension like Alfheim. (which also has a sun and stars and galaxies btw)

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yes, depending on the context but what context does Muspelheim has that would conclude that the usage of "world" is referring to it as a universe? It doesn't follow any of the standards that I have already linked. It only has been called a "world" as it's "proof".

Whether it does or not was not my argument, which is why I targeted a specific part of your argument, and how it doesn’t apply.

No need to bring up DMC, as you have said, that has actual instances of the human and demon world being called a universe. If you have read my post you would know why we consider the ToR's universes without the need of them being called universes. Chaos is the human world, designed after our real-life universe, and the other two realities are comparable to it with Paradiso even being bigger. There is no need to question their size when they have actually adequate evidence for it besides being called a "world".

Like I said, believing it’s only a world is completely untrue and baseless for DMC, which is why I’m saying your initial argument of “it has to mean universe” is completely dishonest.

 

[Dienomite22]

And yet it fits the same standards you posted?

• If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
  
  What does Muspelheim say? “I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time.” SO not only does it fit that definition, but it is also reasonable in size from what we have seen.

You have yet to show Muspelheim containing galaxies...let alone countless galaxies and that doesn't conclude a dimension is a universe. A starry sky is not evidence.

• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

A separate flow of time is also not evidence.

• A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up.

I agree with you, Purgatorio is connected to the trinity, it’s what I’ve been saying. But my point is that it’s not inside of the layered structure, despite being connected to it. Yet it will still be merged along with the other universes. Yes, beings in purgatorio affect the trinity more than Muspelheim has. It is closely layered to the world of chaos so that much is easy to grasp, but that doesn’t mean Muspelheim doesn’t share the same luxury. It is a realm connected to the trinity, and manifests portals all over the human world that leads to it. The world is connected via a gate (the portals) just like how Paradiso, or inferno is, it’s all the same.

But if the staff have any opinions feel free to say them now. We can’t get much further debating between the two of us again.

Muspelheim is only connected to the Trinity via portals. Purgatorio is connected to the Trinity via being literally within its structure and space-time. I'm not seeing how Muspelheim would be affected by the Trinity merge.

 

[Dienomite22]

Whether it does or not was not my argument, which is why I targeted a specific part of your argument, and how it doesn’t apply.

Then you are saying nothing.

Like I said, believing it’s only a world is completely untrue and baseless for DMC, which is why I’m saying your initial argument of “it has to mean universe” is completely dishonest.

That isn't dishonest as the two are totally incomparable. A dimension that we know nothing about that is called a "world" isn't going to get the same benefit of the doubt of being deemed a universe as a dimension that features our planets, stars, and history (alt or not) so why would I need to mention that? Should I have said that "unless a dimension can reasonably be assumed to be our universe it needs to be called a universe" or something like that?

 

[Comicgyal]

You have yet to show Muspelheim containing galaxies...let alone countless galaxies and that doesn't conclude a dimension is a universe. A starry sky is not evidence.

• Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
• Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.

A separate flow of time is also not evidence.

• A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up.

It being separate is enough, here is what Ultima said about it:

“Yeah, I'd say so. The paragraph you've posted even describes it as "separated" from the flow of time, so, it wouldn't make much sense to interpret it in any other way, in my view.”

It is not merely “different” than the normal space time, but separated from it entirely.

It is a proven multi solar system sized dimension, with a completely separate space time, that’s also referred to as a universe in the games own lore.. I don’t see what other context is needed.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So what was that discussion we had on the Irenic thread about DMC fans showing up to Bayonetta threads to stonewall them by arguing out of bias...

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Then you are saying nothing.

No, you are just completely dishonest and creating standards that do not exist to benefit your argument.

That isn't dishonest as the two are totally incomparable. A dimension that we know nothing about that is called a "world" isn't going to get the same benefit of the doubt of being deemed a universe as a dimension that features our planets, stars, and history (alt or not) so why would I need to mention that? Should I have said that "unless a dimension can reasonably be assumed to be our universe it needs to be called a universe" or something like that?

The world “universe” does not explicitly need to be stated, there exists parallel worlds, possibilities, etc, all which mean different universe, which Bayonetta has consistently proven by having multiple universal realities and spaces, and different timelines branching of a singular event.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Calm down both sides.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m calm, I’m very direct.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The world “universe” does not explicitly need to be stated, there exists parallel worlds, possibilities, etc, all which mean different universe, which Bayonetta has consistently proven by having multiple universal realities and spaces, and different timelines branching of a singular event.

Funny thing is the word universe HAS been stated, multiple times, including instances where World and Universe were using interchangeably in the same scene lol

 

[Dienomite22]

It is a proven multi solar system sized dimension, with a completely separate space time, that’s also referred to as a universe in the games own lore.. I don’t see what other context is needed.

My issue is highlighted. This is not true. Just because confirmed universe in the verse are called "worlds" doesn't mean it being used with Muspelheim makes it one.

 

[DaReaperMan]

My issue is highlighted. This is not true. Just because confirmed universe in the verse are called "worlds" doesn't mean it being used with Muspelheim makes it one.

Why should it not be? In pretty much the same context in the same verse other universes were called worlds, why is Muspelheim a special case?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

My issue is highlighted. This is not true. Just because confirmed universe in the verse are called "worlds" doesn't mean it being used with Muspelheim makes it one.

Thats a big assumption my guy, what reason would there be for them to consistently use the word World to describe universes in every other instance except for Muspelheim?

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m calm as well, but they’re right, having an argument formed off of: “It doesn’t say the words universe so it isn’t one”

Despite it being called a world which means universe in game, having a separate space time, and being decently sized. It doesn’t make much sense.

I understand that Luka calling the human universe a “World” is passable because it’s obviously a universe, but you cannot deny that same logic for Muspelheim. Because Alfheim is not called a world, despite it being filled with galaxies with stars.

“I have one more interesting aside. Within Paradiso, there are said to be secret rooms known as Alfheim, where angels gather and hold their banquets.”

Muspelheim fits the description, and again

The fact that it has the word “Primordial” in front of the word “World” and looking at the definition of primordial..

“existing at or from the beginning of time; primeval.
"the primordial oceans”

Meaning it existed either when Jubileus was originally creating the multiverse, or when the multiverse was split apart. Which.. either way means it was apart of the origin universes, and isn’t just a mere dimension like Alfheim. (which also has a sun and stars and galaxies btw)

 

[Dienomite22]

No, you are just completely dishonest and creating standards that do not exist to benefit your argument.

How?

The world “universe” does not explicitly need to be stated, there exists parallel worlds, possibilities, etc, all which mean different universe, which Bayonetta has consistently proven by having multiple universal realities and spaces, and different timelines branching of a singular event.

But none of those words are used for Muspelheim. Muspelheim isn't a parallel world, branching possibility, etc. I'm not being disingenuous. Muspelheim is just a dimension called a "primordial world" with a starry sky so I'm applying those standards to it. I'm genuinely not sure what you are getting at.

 

[Dienomite22]

Thats a big assumption my guy, what reason would there be for them to consistently use the word World to describe universes in every other instance except for Muspelheim?

If I were a human who stepped into a new dimension, I would call it a world too.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

But none of those words are used for Muspelheim. Muspelheim isn't a parallel world, branching possibility, etc. I'm not being disingenuous. Muspelheim is just a dimension called a "primordial world" with a starry sky so I'm applying those standards to it. I'm genuinely not sure what you are getting at.

Worlds in Bayonetta has consistently be portrayed as a universe. The human world, Paradiso (which is stated to be bigger), and Inferno. You would have to prove the opposite and how Muspslheim breaks the chain, which isn’t possible. Occam’s razor, the simplest answer is usually the best, and every instance of a separate space in Bayonetta is a different universe, it’s safer to assume and supported by evidence. You have nothing to stand on.

 

[Dienomite22]

Worlds in Bayonetta has consistently be portrayed as a universe. The human world, Paradiso (which is stated to be bigger), and Inferno. You would have to prove the opposite and how Muspslheim breaks the chain, which isn’t possible. Occam’s razor, the simplest answer is usually the best, and every instance of a separate space in Bayonetta is a different room, it’s safer to assume and supported by evidence. You have nothing to stand on.

Do I need to remind you that these descriptions are still from the perspective of a human exploring these supernatural and a second-hand account about the dimensino at that? Ask yourself what would you call Muspelheim upon arriving or hearing about it? What makes you so sure that every single use of the word means or implies universe?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Do I need to remind you that these descriptions are still from the perspective of a human exploring these supernatural and a second-hand look at that? Ask yourself what would you call Muspelheim upon arriving or hearing about it? What makes you so sure that every single use of the word means or implies universe?

Theyre not though? As of bayonetta 2 the source is Rodin who has extensive knowldge of the verse's cosmology, as well as Bayoetta, Jeanne, Loptr, and Balder, all of which have every reason to have knowlegde about the structure of the verse's cosmology

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Do I need to remind you that these descriptions are still from the perspective of a human exploring these supernatural and a second-hand look at that? Ask yourself what would you call Muspelheim upon arriving or hearing about it? What makes you so sure that every single use of the word means or implies universe?

You’re making strawmans now, and arguments that do not apply to her. Bayonetta is not a normal ignorant human, and would possess more knowledge of the space than me, you, or anyone on this thread if we hadn’t already known it’s lore.