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Bayonetta Revions - The Depths

Comicgyal

Comicgyal

1,701
941
Introduction

Welcome to yet another Bayonetta revision, and thanks for tuning in as always. Today we'll be discussing a few things of importance, so try to stay open minded and level headed.

Ultimate Summon

究極召喚 クイーンシバ 宇宙が「光」「脳」「混沌」の三つに分かた れた時、脳を司る意界と共に生した都市 在。魔界の宇宙の理を司るとされ、是非の 念からともなく「女王」の名を冠して時 ぶようになった。その姿を見た者はなく、定 まった姿を持たないとも、無線 の間が広が る魔界そのものがこのだとも言われる。

Supreme/Ultimate Summon Queen Shiva When the universe was split into "light", "darkness", and "chaos", Shiva was born from the World of Darkness (Inferno?) as a supreme being. She is said to control the reason of the Demon World (Inferno) universe, and was referred to as a "Queen" out of a sense of right and wrong(?). It is said that no one has seen her form, that it may have no fixed form, or it was the Demon World (Inferno) itself with its endless space.
Click to expand...

This quote has major impact on the verse, by first establishing Queen Sheba as an Ultimate Summon. As you see in the last sentence of the translation, Queen Sheba embodies the infinite World of Darkness. On it's own, this would warrant AE type 1 as she has no physical form. Along with omnipresence on a Universal scale, since she embodies all of Inferno.

The Scale

1. Lifting Strength

In the fight against Jubileus, Bayonetta summons Queen Sheba along with Jeannes' help. (albeit incapacitated) and is able to support Shebas' weight. Due to this, Bayonetta would get immeasurable LS as Sheba is infinite in size. This scales to Sheba herself, since she can support her own weight. Balder, Jubileus, and every other God tier who is stronger, or equal to Bayonetta or Sheba.

2. Infinite Speed

Since we know Inferno is infinite in size, Paradiso of course follows suit. Kamiya remarks Paradiso as a universe with an Endless amount of energy. Not only that, but Paradiso is visually much larger than Inferno. Last of all, Paradiso is referred to as the "Highest Layer of the trinity" it would make little sense for it to be smaller than the dimension below it. This brings the topic again of Irenic, who is stated to be to cross the entirety of Paradiso in less than a day.

3. The Ramifications Of This...

Immeasurable speed was discussed before, but we didn't go quite enough in depth. To start, verse cards are needed to do the game mode "Tag Climax" if you haven't fought an enemy before, you can't use their verse cards. Although you think it's just a non-canon game mode, they actually use elements from the main game. For starters it takes place in Muspelheim, which is said to :
"Be full of demons, angels, witches, and sages, who spend their day pursuing nothing but battle." It brings in enemies of all time periods. This lines up with Muspelheim in tag climax, as you're able to fight enemies like Rosa who is canonically dead. Verse cards are what Loki uses ingame, and he keeps verse cards of enemies you've defeated in canon, these are the same cards in Tag climax.

Because the two are so closely related, the means used to travel through Muspelheim have to be the same throughout. In Tag Climax you select a verse card, and are able to run through time and enter to the time period you wish.
 
From what the description makes it sound like, Sheba has no true form, so why does Bayo scale to Sheba if the Sheba that we see summoned appears to be an avatar that is clearly not infinite in size?

Agree on AE1 though. I don't wanna touch Infinite speed.

Btw where did you get this translation from? Just curious.
 
It’s from the Bayonetta 1 artbook. Also the description is suggesting what Sheba could be, “it is said” being the main indicator of that. But we give Sheba form when we summon her, and since she is inferno which is infinite, it scales to Bayo.
 
Comicgyal said:
It’s from the Bayonetta 1 artbook.
Click to expand...
Not quite what I was asking but that's good to know nonetheless. I was asking where did you get this particular translation from.
Comicgyal said:
Also the description is suggesting what Sheba could be, “it is said” being the main indicator of that. But we give Sheba form when we summon her, and since she is inferno which is infinite, it scales to Bayo.
Click to expand...
In that case I'll stay neutral. I'll wait for more arguments.
 
Her lacking a form and being one with inferno could just mean omnipresence. If she has any statements of being the incarnation of Inferno itself that can help, but this sounds more like omnipresence to me.

LS would at best be Infinite unless you have some statements that it's one with space and time, if she's just an infinite space that would just be an infinite LS feat.

The endless energy doesn't exactly tell me much as it said he's making an endless power supply, not that he's using paradiso since it is an endless power supply. Do you have the scan for it being the highest layer in the trinity? If so that can help with the infinite speed rating.

Immeasurable speed I'm neutral on, don't know enough on Tag climax to give much of an opinion on.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Her lacking a form and being one with inferno could just mean omnipresence. If she has any statements of being the incarnation of Inferno itself that can help, but this sounds more like omnipresence to me.

LS would at best be Infinite unless you have some statements that it's one with space and time, if she's just an infinite space that would just be an infinite LS feat.

The endless energy doesn't exactly tell me much as it said he's making an endless power supply, not that he's using paradiso since it is an endless power supply. Do you have the scan for it being the highest layer in the trinity? If so that can help with the infinite speed rating.
Click to expand...
I should have posted the entire scan, but Kamiya says here that he’s using Paradiso’ power because he needs an endless power supply. As in he’s using Paradiso to fuel it. Also yeah give me one second to find that.

Theglassman12 said:
Her lacking a form and being one with inferno could just mean omnipresence. If she has any statements of being the incarnation of Inferno itself that can help, but this sounds more like omnipresence to me.

LS would at best be Infinite unless you have some statements that it's one with space and time, if she's just an infinite space that would just be an infinite LS feat.
Click to expand...
I believe that the quote is making it sound like she is inferno, as in the universe itself.

“When the universe was split into "light", "darkness", and "chaos", Shiva was born from the World of Darkness (Inferno?) as a supreme being.
-
It is said that no one has seen her form, that it may have no fixed form, or it was the Demon World (Inferno) itself with its endless space.”

Her being inferno itself would make the most sense, as we don’t see her as we’re traveling through inferno, and there’s no mention of her at all. If she is inferno itself as they’re implying, she would be that universe and its space time, making it immeasurable. She isn’t just an infinite space, since we know Inferno has space time.

But regardless, it can be both, because Bayo can give her a form through her summon, even though she is the universe inferno.
 
I also don't know enough about the tag climax, but looking at the description, using mere elements don't really makes it canon by itself, take even the mercenaries from Resident Evil, using main games material such but far from canon, I may be wrong and my example may be completely absurd, but like I said, I'm not familiar to the mode and I'm going only by what's there

In the fight against Jubileus, Bayonetta summons Queen Sheba along with Jeannes' help. (albeit incapacitated) and is able to support Shebas' weight. Due to this, Bayonetta would get immeasurable LS as Sheba is infinite in size. This scales to Sheba herself, since she can support her own weight. Balder, Jubileus, and every other God tier who is stronger, or equal to Bayonetta or Sheba.
Click to expand...

To scale this, we would need to know if Sheba's avatar carries the size and thus the weight of her "true form", I do agree True Form Sheba (at the very least) should surely get some upgrades

Since we know Inferno is infinite in size, Paradiso of course follows suit. Kamiya remarks Paradiso as a universe with an Endless amount of energy. Not only that, but Paradiso is visually much larger than Inferno. Last of all, Paradiso is referred to as the "Highest Layer of the trinity" it would make little sense for it to be smaller than the dimension below it. This brings the topic again of Irenic, who is stated to be to cross the entirety of Paradiso in less than a day.
Click to expand...

Like I said before, I support this, it's basically changing the value of a already accepted feat and scaling
 
Comicgyal said:
Because it’s not just a universe, it is an infinitely sized universe with space time. Which would fit the criteria needed for immeasurable LS.
Click to expand...
that's not my question, I'm referring to the abstract existence stuff, not the LS part. Also again, do you have proof these are separate space times and not just random dimensions?
 
Theglassman12 said:
that's not my question, I'm referring to the abstract existence stuff, not the LS part. Also again, do you have proof these are separate space times and not just random dimensions?
Click to expand...
Oh, because she embodies inferno. In most cases she doesn’t have a “physical” form, unless given one like how Bayonetta did. That’s AE1 type one.

Also are you referring to the trinity? Do they need to be separate space times for this feat? Even if they were the same, each dimension has space and time, which means Queen Sheba can embody it .
 
She embodying inferno just sounds like another way of saying she's omnipresent in Inferno, especially when the translation just says she's the dimension itself, which again is more omnipresence, not literal AE type 1 as she doesn't represent and idea or a concept.

They need to be stated to be separate space-times for them to be an immeasurable LS feat. if they don't, going off the endless scan that's at best Infinite.
 
Have to agree with Glass on AE1 part.
IZ has it because he embodies his own will, nothing physical. Inferno is physical, so its iffy for Sheeba.

You need metaphysical basis for AE, since its Abstract Existence afterall
 
Theglassman12 said:
They need to be stated to be separate space-times for them to be an immeasurable LS feat. if they don't, going off the endless scan that's at best Infinite.
Click to expand...
I haven’t seen anything saying that they have to be separate space times, only that the universe has to be infinite, and 3-D.

Why would them having separate space times matter anyway? She merged with a spacetime regardless.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Have to agree with Glass on AE1 part.
IZ has it because he embodies his own will, nothing physical. Inferno is physical, so its iffy for Sheeba.

You need metaphysical basis for AE, since its Abstract Existence afterall
Click to expand...
Theglassman12 said:
She embodying inferno just sounds like another way of saying she's omnipresent in Inferno, especially when the translation just says she's the dimension itself, which again is more omnipresence, not literal AE type 1 as she doesn't represent and idea or a concept.
Click to expand...
Angels nor demons are physical beings, it’s why their pages have type 2 AE. The same would be for Sheba, except she lacks a true physical form, but embodies inferno as well. Which is why she would be type 1.
 
Okay so comic has settled on infinite LS so we still need to talk about AE1, Infinite LS scaling to Bayo, and Infinite/Immeasurable speed
 
I disagree with Immeasurable LS for pretty much the same reason as Glass. Infinite makes more sense.

I explained my disagreements with Infinite speed on discord but I'll summarize it here.
The proof for infinite speed provided in the OP is not sufficient in my eyes. The basis of it relies on Purgatorio scaling to Inferno's infinite size which I don't think checks out. Purgatorio having endless energy is not proof of an infinite sized dimension and nor is it visually being depicted as larger than Inferno is proof as visuals would have little meaning when talking about the true size of a universe-sized dimension which isn't always determined by how it visually looks. Inferno is the one with the infinite size statement, not Paradiso. Another thing is that Paradiso being the "Highest layer" of the trinity is not an indication that its size is automatically greater or comparable to Inferno. Paradiso is referred to as the "Highest layer" not because of its size or power compared to the other dimensions but because its cosmic position in the Bayonetta universe is the Highest as in it is "Heaven" while Inferno is the lowest because it is Hell and the Human world being in the middle of the two and therefore the middle layer, which you can see by the visualizer from the Bayonetta 2 artbook below (Middle Diamond in the pic).




And the Human world, Paradiso and Inferno needing to be balanced is not proof that each world is comparable to each other in size or that Paradiso should scale to Inferno as Paradiso is explicitly stated to be thousands of times larger than the human world meaning that the balanced of the trinity is not influenced by size compared to each other and that each world is not the same in size.

I don't really understand the reason for immeasurable speed so I can't comment on it.

Infinite LS is fine.

I disagree with Infinite speed.

And I'm neutral towards Immeasurable speed.
 
Based on everything discussed so far.

Immeasurable LS - Disagree
Infinite LS - Agree
Infinite Speed - Neutral
Immeasurable Speed - Agree
 
Ironic how infinite LS is being favored more than immeasurable LS whereas in the speed department, immeasurable speed is currently being favored more than infinite speed.
 
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