Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[WeeklyBattles]

Since when did we start putting entire CRTs on hold for one user to voice their disagreements? Especially whn said CRT has already been concluded and applied?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Please don't try to play this game here. Its over half way through sunday in EST and there isn't much time before the weekend is well over.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Also, the phrase "by X time" typically means "before"

 

[Comicgyal]

It’s not an issue of patience, I just don’t think you realize that we’ve been debating 2-C for a few weeks now. It’s just not very fair for anyone to have to wait, and then debate the topic over again. Regardless all we asked was whether you were still replying, so if you are then go on.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we can wait a while longer. Remember that Theglassman is not well at the moment.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What part of "I’ll try to respond by the weekend" do you not understand? It's at the weekend and I will respond, have some patience for once.

I’m completely impartial to what happens, but, Glass. Time is an illusion, if you must, simply make a downgrade CRT, no need to rush yourself or feel rushed.

 

[Theglassman12]

Alright, ignoring the whole Dienomite debacle here, correct me if I'm wrong but the main argument for single eye wielders being 2-C is that every sphere Jubileus made is an alternate space time realm in her fight? Do you have any scans where it's stated or shown that each of these spheres have completely alternate flows of time compared to the normal universe? And do you have any scans that implied that Muselpheim is going to be a part of the merging for the trinity of realities given that's part of the dual eye wielder's ratings?

 

[Comicgyal]

Alright, ignoring the whole Dienomite debacle here, correct me if I'm wrong but the main argument for single eye wielders being 2-C is that every sphere Jubileus made is an alternate space time realm in her fight? Do you have any scans where it's stated or shown that each of these spheres have completely alternate flows of time compared to the normal universe? And do you have any scans that implied that Muselpheim is going to be a part of the merging for the trinity of realities given that's part of the dual eye wielder's ratings?

It’s because the sphere she made the universes in, do not exist in the main trinitys diagram. Which is also why Muspelheim is given a separate time flow.

Muspelheim is being included in the merging, for the same logic that purgatorio would be. It is connected to the trinity and it’s universes, albeit not as closely though that doesn’t really matter. But Muspelheim isn’t used in the single eye user scaling, it was just a separate conversation.

 

[Theglassman12]

Didn't Kamiya flat out said that the other dimensions were showing the beginning of the universe? As in she wasn't finished making the universe at that time, and it was only until the giant wind dimension with no end in sight that he flat out said she made a universe? Considering the other rooms that get warped are nowhere near the size of a planet, let alone the universe, I do not see how each and every single sphere Jubileus made is a flat out universe as opposed to a build up to the actual universe jubileus made in the wind dimension.

Purgatorio is a completely different beast altogether, it's connected to the human world to the point that many characters in purgatorio can interact with the environment easily, such as destroying numerous environments or using said environments to attack others in the human world, Muselpheim does not have the same connections given it's only accessed via portals and is cut off from the rest of the realms.

 

[Comicgyal]

Didn't Kamiya flat out said that the other dimensions were showing the beginning of the universe? As in she wasn't finished making the universe at that time, and it was only until the giant wind dimension with no end in sight that he flat out said she made a universe? Considering the other rooms that get warped are nowhere near the size of a planet, let alone the universe, I do not see how each and every single sphere Jubileus made is a flat out universe as opposed to a build up to the actual universe jubileus made in the wind dimension.

No, Kamiya said that she was still young, and that her powers weren’t fully developed. She was creating the same multiverse as before, but just on a lesser scale. The wind dimension is only seen as much larger, because Jubileus is spread out through it. However none of the other dimensions have an “end” and still continue on. Jubileus also fits in these dimensions in a spread out fashion, so they’re not smaller than the wind dimension.

Purgatorio is a completely different beast altogether, it's connected to the human world to the point that many characters in purgatorio can interact with the environment easily, such as destroying numerous environments or using said environments to attack others in the human world, Muselpheim does not have the same connections given it's only accessed via portals and is cut off from the rest of the realms.

Muspelheim is connected to the trinity via gates and portals, which is why beings from the other realities can access Muspelheim itself. However again it’s not apart of the single eye wielders scaling.

 

[Theglassman12]

The fire and ice dimension clearly do have an end, it's just a large spherical area that bayonetta can walk around with no issues. Also I'm referring to this scan.

That Jubileus is TRYING to create.

Meaning she hasn't made the universe yet, so Idk why this is being used to argue 2-C, especially when there's no statement of alternate space times being made as a result.

Also I'm aware the Muselpheim statement isn't used for the one eye, I'm referring to the two eye scaling for that dimension when there's no indication that the realm is gonna be affected.

 

[Comicgyal]

The fire and ice dimension clearly do have an end, it's just a large spherical area that bayonetta can walk around with no issues. Also I'm referring to this scan.

Meaning she hasn't made the universe yet, so Idk why this is being used to argue 2-C, especially when there's no statement of alternate space times being made as a result.

Also I'm aware the Muselpheim statement isn't used for the one eye, I'm referring to the two eye scaling for that dimension when there's no indication that the realm is gonna be affected.

You can’t touch the sides of any dimension, or come to an end of it. Yes it appears like a large sphere because of the way jubileus, but it makes no sense for jubileus one universe, and then some other super little ones.

Also Kamiya says these dimensions are to give an impression of heaven and earth being created, which are universes in Bayonetta.

“Meaning she hasn't made the universe yet, so Idk why this is being used to argue 2-C, especially when there's no statement of alternate space times being made as a result.”

Argument makes no sense, because you already acknowledged that the wind dimension is a universe. She’s trying to recreate it as she’s fighting with Bayonetta, but she already made these universes as you can see, it’s just on a lower scale because Kamiya says she isn’t as strong.

Also these universes don’t exist within the main three universal space time, making them separate space times. This same argument was brought up by Dienomite by the way.

 

[Theglassman12]

I accept the wind dimension being a universe cause Kamiya flat out said it, I do not buy the other dimensions being the same size cause they're not of the same size because they're not shown to have no end nor does kamiya say the same thing for them.

Can you post scans that says they're separate space times? Cause I don't see any statements that they're separate space times. Why would we assume that it's a separate space time when it could just be the same as the trinity of realities who despite being alternate dimensions lack any statement of being separate space times?

 

[Comicgyal]

The trinity has a unique three layered space time structure, any other universe in the verse is not apart of this, and therefore is a different space time.

 

[Theglassman12]

So that would at best make the feat for the one eye wielders just Low 2-C if that’s the case when we only have one universe made from that realm. I still don’t see 2-C from the other ice and fire realms when they weren’t flat out universes but the beginning stage of the universe.

 

[Comicgyal]

There’s not just one universe, I explained that the reason Kamiya called the wind dimension a universe was to make an innuendo. Kamiya includes the wind dimension in that whole “This is the origin of the universe she’s trying to create” Meaning that the wind universe still isn’t that “complete” universe she’s trying to create, it’s all three universes together that makes up that multiverse. Which makes sense, since the original universe from before time that she was making, ended up creating Paradiso, Inferno, Chaos, Purgatorio, Muspelheim, etc.

 

[Theglassman12]

… so he only said that to make an innuendo? You do realize this is the exact thing that made Kamiya’s Twitter comment on universal DMC to not count cause of him making trolly comments right? If that was the whole point then that dimension being a universe shouldn’t even count anymore since it’s just Kamiya’s trolling.

Why is Muselpheim remotely included when that's not part of the trinity of realities? There's no statement that Jubileus made it.

 

[Comicgyal]

… so he only said that to make an innuendo? You do realize this is the exact thing that made Kamiya’s Twitter comment on universal DMC to not count cause of him making trolly comments right? If that was the whole point then that dimension being a universe shouldn’t even count anymore since it’s just Kamiya’s trolling.

Why is Muselpheim remotely included when that's not part of the trinity of realities? There's no statement that Jubileus made it.

No, because that was in a documentary not a Twitter comment section. He purposely pointed out that it was a universe, for an innuendo that all of them knew of. Which supports the fact that the rest of them are also universes, the wind dimension wasn’t a special case at all.

Because where do you think the multiverse came from? Nothing In bayonettas universe was naturally formed, infact Muspelheim was said to be a primordial world that existed at the beginning of time, meaning Jubileus would have had a hand in creating it. Everything that’s in the lore was either created by Jubileus or Aesir.

 

[Theglassman12]

That doesn't change the fact that he made a troll comment in a documentary, it's arguably even worse when he's supposed to act professional but makes a random innuendo for no reason in a professional setting, and again, they're not blatantly universe sized when you can run laps around it in a few seconds.

You need proof (AKA scans) that she remotely made that dimension, can you posts them because nothing from what I found in bayo 2's lore ever implied it was a part of the trinity. The fact that you can only get to muselpheim is through a specific portal and doesn't interact with the main trinity defeats the point of it being connected like purgatorio.

 

[Comicgyal]

That doesn't change the fact that he made a troll comment in a documentary, it's arguably even worse when he's supposed to act professional but makes a random innuendo for no reason in a professional setting, and again, they're not blatantly universe sized when you can run laps around it in a few seconds.

You need proof (AKA scans) that she remotely made that dimension, can you posts them because nothing from what I found in bayo 2's lore ever implied it was a part of the trinity. The fact that you can only get to muselpheim is through a specific portal and doesn't interact with the main trinity defeats the point of it being connected like purgatorio.

Why are you saying it’s a troll comment? Kamiya and his acquaintance said that it was a universe, and then made an innuendo afterwards. What part of that is troll? Also you can’t run laps around them, you can barely run across the floor because of the ice and lava, so what are you talking about lol

The proof that she made their multiverse, is enough proof that she made Muspelheim. Are you trying to say that in a multiverse that didn’t exist until Jubileus created it, a new universe just suddenly appeared? If she made the trinity only, where did purgatorio come from? Even if it is closely layered to the human world, it’s not apart of the trinity’s structure either, so are you implying that it as well came from nowhere?

Also you can only travel to purgatorio through portals too. It doesn’t have a gate like all the other realities, so that isn’t any proof against Muspelheim.

 

[Theglassman12]

Making a sex joke out of nowhere is a pretty troll comment. You also said and I quote.

I explained that the reason Kamiya called the wind dimension a universe was to make an innuendo.

If he wasn't being serious and he only said that to make an innuendo, that means he wasn't being serious and is trolling, so If he seriously was then why should we take his statement here seriously?

And yes you can run laps, equip fire and ice weapons you're literally immune to damage from the environment there.

Muselpheim is NOT part of the trinity, what leap of logic are you doing here? For the last time give me scans that states that Jubileus made them, if you're not gonna give scans to back up the idea that Jubileus made Muselpheim then it's baseless headcanon and can't be used here.

False equivalency, I literally said right here.

Purgatorio is a completely different beast altogether, it's connected to the human world to the point that many characters in purgatorio can interact with the environment easily, such as destroying numerous environments or using said environments to attack others in the human world, Muselpheim does not have the same connections given it's only accessed via portals and is cut off from the rest of the realms.

There's evidence Purgatorio is connected to the realities more than you think, Muselpheim does not.

 

[Comicgyal]

Making a sex joke out of nowhere is a pretty troll comment. You also said and I quote.

If he wasn't being serious and he only said that to make an innuendo, that means he wasn't being serious and is trolling, so If he seriously was then why should we take his statement here seriously?

“You get inside here and find it’s a universe.”
“Yeah a universe.”

Pause

“Then inside there..”
(Innuendo)

Innuendo or not, Kamiyas member confirmed that it was a universe. So him only saying it for an innuendos sake doesn’t matter.

Also the burden of proof isn’t on me for Muspelheim, it’s for you to prove that Jubileus infact didn’t create Muspelheim. Since it is an undeniable fact that she created the multiverse, and everything in it. To say that Muspelheim is not apart of that, despite it being apart of the universe, is the leap in logic here.

But we again went over Muspelheim being apart of the merging two pages ago, and these same arguments you’re bringing up have been debated.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes it does, if he seriously said it just to make an innuendo why should we take it seriously? This is the exact same reason why we don’t count his Twitter statement at all cause he ends up making jokey/troll comments to other people, it’s hypocritical to ignore this instance just because he’s in a documentary, as if him being in a documentary somehow means his claims are more mature than he acts on Twitter.

that’s not how it works, not only does Jubileus’ lore only say the Trinity of realities itself is where she was the apex in when it was made, and the fact that it was only the Trinity of realities that she would merge disproves the idea that she made Muselpheim to begin with, if you have proof that she made the realm, give me the scans that flat out say she made Muselpheim, otherwise you’re basing this entirely off of headcanon.

and throughout the entire debate I have not seen any scans of Muselpheim being stated to be affected during the merge, if you give the scans that it was part of the merge then I’ll concede. Until then I’m not buying Muselpheim being affected as it’s reliant on assumptions here.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes it does, if he seriously said it just to make an innuendo why should we take it seriously? This is the exact same reason why we don’t count his Twitter statement at all cause he ends up making jokey/troll comments to other people, it’s hypocritical to ignore this instance just because he’s in a documentary, as if him being in a documentary somehow means his claims are more mature than he acts on Twitter.

You’re making a very dumb argument, comparing what Kamiya says on Twitter, to what he said in a documentary. Everything in the documentary was full of lore and factually correct, the legitimacy of it is not going to be taken into question.

that’s not how it works, not only does Jubileus’ lore only say the Trinity of realities itself is where she was the apex in when it was made, and the fact that it was only the Trinity of realities that she would merge disproves the idea that she made Muselpheim to begin with, if you have proof that she made the realm, give me the scans that flat out say she made Muselpheim, otherwise you’re basing this entirely off of headcanon.

and throughout the entire debate I have not seen any scans of Muselpheim being stated to be affected during the merge, if you give the scans that it was part of the merge then I’ll concede. Until then I’m not buying Muselpheim being affected as it’s reliant on assumptions here.

Everything you’re saying is backwards logic, because you and everyone else who made this same argument acknowledges that Purgatorio will be merged with the trinity. But that’s somehow okay because it’s layered closely to the human world? So what?

The lore says that jubileus will merge the three realities, Paradiso, Chaos, and Inferno, however since Purgatorio is connected to them we say that it will also be merged. Muspelheim is the same way, and was accepted to work that way as well. If any staff member reading currently disagrees, then feel free to say something.

 

[Theglassman12]

That has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. If Kamiya doesn’t take it seriously and makes it a joke why the hell should we take that instance seriously? It’s not a dumb argument when it’s the same instance that YOU yourself said was just to make an innuendo.

Give me proof that Muselpheim functions the same way right now then. I already gave proof Purgatorio has way more connection to the human world than other realms, you have not, if you don’t give me proof you’re basing this off of baseless assumptions.

 

[Dienomite22]

Everything you’re saying is backwards logic, because you and everyone else who made this same argument acknowledges that Purgatorio will be merged with the trinity. But that’s somehow okay because it’s layered closely to the human world?

Yes. Not only that but it actually has showings of operating by the Trinity's space-time according to cutscenes, has statements of being in between the Trinity of Realities, called the Center of the Trinity, and the fact that you don't need a portal to get to Purgatorio if you are an angel, demon, lumen sage or Witch. There is no room to deny Purgatorio being a part of the merge. Muspelheim on the other hand has none of those qualities.

 

[Comicgyal]

That has absolutely nothing to do with my argument. If Kamiya doesn’t take it seriously and makes it a joke why the hell should we take that instance seriously? It’s not a dumb argument when it’s the same instance that YOU yourself said was just to make an innuendo.

Give me proof that Muselpheim functions the same way right now then. I already gave proof Purgatorio has way more connection to the human world than other realms, you have not, if you don’t give me proof you’re basing this off of baseless assumptions.

I never said Kamiya didn’t take it seriously, he stated it so that he could make an innuendo. You were just saying that it was a universe, and now you’re trying to go back on it

Already told you, Muspelheim is connected to the trinity via gateways just like Purgatorio is. Purgatorio is more closely layered than Muspelheim is, sure, but Muspelheim is connected to the trinity via its doorways.

 

[Theglassman12]

Stop taking what I said out of context, YOU flat out said that Kamiya said it to make an innuendo, if he seriously made that statement for a joke and wasn't being serious, why should I all of a sudden take his word in that instance?

Lack of scans, again, can you bring them? You've been in 3 CRTs for bayonetta with me at this point Comic, you should know that I want scans to justify these ratings, if you're not going to post the scans, or there is no scans for these claims at all, then its just assumptions and headcanon at this point and I don't see the reason to accept this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So what's going on again?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

So what's going on again?

Glass wants proof for the proposal, didn't got any. The "documentary" (which is more like gameplay with comments) is being contested as something not serious and in the same vein as the twitter statements. Didn't really pay attention to the rest so it would be good if you check the comments.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DarkDragonMedeus I originally questioned why making separate spheres with no proof that each are legit universal in size during the Jubileus boss fight would be 2-C for the one eye wielders, but Comic mentioned that Kamiya's whole point of making that universal statement is to make an innuendo, basically having the same situation as his twitter statements, so I'm now questioning why we should use the statement now if he has the same trolly mindset he has on twitter, making his other universal statement to not count on the wiki. Also I'm questioning why Muselpheim is remotely affected in the trinity merging for the two eye wielders when nothing about Muselpheim is stated in lore to be connected to the trinity, or would have been affected by the merging, and I have yet to have received any scans regarding the realm being affected beyond assumptions.

 

[Comicgyal]

“You get inside here and find it’s a universe.”
“Yeah a universe.”

Pause

“Then inside there..”
(Innuendo)

Innuendo or not, Kamiyas member confirmed that it was a universe. So him only saying it for an innuendos sake doesn’t matter.

Stop taking what I said out of context, YOU flat out said that Kamiya said it to make an innuendo, if he seriously made that statement for a joke and wasn't being serious, why should I all of a sudden take his word in that instance?

Lack of scans, again, can you bring them? You've been in 3 CRTs for bayonetta with me at this point Comic, you should know that I want scans to justify these ratings, if you're not going to post the scans, or there is no scans for these claims at all, then its just assumptions and headcanon at this point and I don't see the reason to accept this.

“Have you ever heard of a doorway between this world and other realms? It may sound strange, but there are actually many such entrances in this world we live in. The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known, so if you're reading this, you've probably heard of them. It also seems that there are other doors that lead to the secret rooms of the angels.”

“I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time.”

Muspelheim is a new doorway to another universe, that’s connected to the trinity and it’s various doors.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

It wasn't Kamiya that made the universe statement. It was the colleague right next to him who said that, to which Kamiya agreed. Then after a pause, then Kamiya himself makes the innuendo.

 

[Comicgyal]

I was just gonna say that, sorry bout that confusion

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Oh yeah, and the colleague who made the statement is Yusuke Hashimoto, the producer and enemy designer of Bayo 1 and also the director of Bayo 2 btw, so its not like his word is meaningless like some kind of random employee.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes it kinda does matter, if we’re accepting this just because he clarified it as a universe then there’s no reason to disregard anything he says on Twitter when he acts the same way.

the door that leads to the angels sound like paradiso so it doesn’t really count when that’s just part of the Trinity of realities.

muselpheim is not a door, it’s a separate dimension, it’s about as connected to the main universe as the Hyperbolic time chamber is in dragon ball.

 

[Comicgyal]

the door that leads to the angels sound like paradiso so it doesn’t really count when that’s just part of the Trinity of realities.

muselpheim is not a door, it’s a separate dimension, it’s about as connected to the main universe as the Hyperbolic time chamber is in dragon ball.

the door that leads to the angels are Alfheim, which is part of Paradiso, but he’s just giving another example

When the quote explicit says it is a doorway, there’s no other argument to be made to oppose it. Yeah it’s an alternate dimension, but it’s still connected to the trinity

 

[Comicgyal]

Ant could you tag the same staff members that gave their opinions last time, to do so again?

 

[Theglassman12]

It’s not connected as Purgatorio is, there’s little to no evidence to suggest Muselpheim has any connections or ways to affect any of the 3 realities.

also I can tag them. @Dragonmasterxyz @DarkDragonMedeus @Sir_Ovens @KingTempest

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Dragon is neutral and is okay with whatever the general consensus is gonna be.