Before Bayonetta 3 : Tier 2 Upgrades

[WeeklyBattles]

@Comicgyal you do realize that putting someone out of commission is the exact same thing as beating them in a fight right? Nothing about this is remotely different as it means the exact same thing. This isn't one situation where she lost to Loptr, she lost like 3 times before he became Aesir, once in his base form in front of Inferno, the second as a child, and the third when he only had one eye, the only time she remotely had a chance against Loptr was when his powers got erased by Loki and had Balder to help her plus a gigantic goddess summon to finish off Loptr. You can say that it's disregarded but the reasonings is still on the page so you have to argue against Loptr being stronger than Bayo, which flies in the face of the entire scaling shown in the game itself.

She did not lose a direct fight to any of his forms. Context matters Glass. The game consistently shows Bayo being superior to Loptr and him needing to use hax or run away from their fights. You are effectively arguing that Bayo randomly became significantly weaker in the time between the end of Bayonetta 1 and the beginning of Bayonetta 2 to the point of being weaker than someone who is canonically half as strong as multiple bosses that she has canonically casually beaten in both games. Loki and Kid Loptr are both half of Aesir's power, adult Loptr/Prophet is kid Loptr after spending hundreds of years growing stronger by absorbing hate, but he still needed to steal Loki's Sovereign Power to get back to his original level of power, ie. the same level of power that Bayonetta stomped at the end of Bayonetta 1. As of Bayo 2, feats Bayo has include:

• The end of the previous game where she canonically beat an empowered Jubileus
  • Right Eye Jubileus is significantly stronger than her base form which is 2x stronger than Loptr as Loptr is half of base Aesir's power
• The second game where she beat Jeanne-absorbed Alraune (who was described as rivaling Queen Sheba in power)
• Her fights against Father Rodin (who is comparable to Jubileus in her prime) and Infinite Rodin (who is stronger than Sheba in her prime)
  • (Of note, Rodin himself outright states at the end of his fights with her that she stomped him)
• The fights in Muspelheim where she outright beats both forms of Loptr as well as Aesir
• The guidebook outright confirming that she beat Aesir

@BayonettaxMinaj and when exactly is that muspelheim achievable again? Is it at any point in time before you get to the final boss fight? Because if so you shot your argument in the foot as a weaker loptr still stomped Bayonetta in the story cutscenes despite this random muspelheim challenge having her beat a stronger version of Loptr. I'm not taking the muspelheim stuff seriously as that contradicts showings in the game.

Nope, you unlock them after the boss fights, the bosses in-game arent fightable in Muspelheim until after you beat them in the storyline first.

 

[Theglassman12]

@WeeklyBattles none of your clips remotely back up what you're claiming, all you do is post random points and not argue against any of my points here.

For someone who loves to claim context matters you sure do a shit job proving said context in the same post. No the game hasn't, it's proven the exact opposite of her power level when she's lost several times in the game, go back to the clips I provided in my earlier posts for proof. Loptr did not need hax at all, the fact that she got hit by two laser beams and is incapable of getting back up with Loptr mocking her lack of power proves she's weaker. Before you claim Loptr is weaker, actually provide scans or debunk my actual points first.

You mean an incomplete Jubileus which is stated by both Kamiya in one of the artbooks and in the game where she needs both eyes to be complete? Yeah that's not a counterargument to my points here.

Prove Jubileus is stronger than Loptr, because the game shows otherwise.

Wow so great that absolutely no scans whatsoever is provided on Jeanne rivalling queen sheba, a great way of proving your point and not wasting time whatsoever.

Scans or I'm not taking anything you say seriously.

Muspelheim isn't canon here whatsoever, especially when Bayo couldn't beat loptr with one eye in the end of the game.

Yeah the guidebook which just says drain his vitality, AKA his health bar just dropping, not canonical proof of anything when his eyes being erased was a necessity to win, especially when it says you'd need to do the QTEs for Omne to finish him off. Nothing whatsoever saying she canonically won against Aesir when the game contradicts this claim.

So it's not canonical to the actual story mode, so why should I take this seriously at all?

Also gotta love how you're not tackling the translations I got. Cause remember weekly, context matters. Until you have anything else to prove infinite realities I don't see this passing.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’ll have to respond to the translations issues, so let’s put the thread on pause since they’ve been posted. No use in arguing anything else before it’s addressed.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I’ll have to respond to the translations issues, so let’s put the thread on pause since they’ve been posted. No use in arguing anything else before it’s addressed.

In the meantime it would be best to discuss revising Aesir's profile to have more accurate justifications, seeing as that appears to be a big point of contention

 

[Comicgyal]

I’d much rather make a new thread for that, and it would have to be later.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I’d much rather make a new thread for that, and it would have to be later.

I mean, from some of the responses here there are disagreements on Bayo scaling stemming from the descriptions on Aesir's page

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

@Theglassman12 Wow just wow.

1.) Muspilhiem does in fact exist, both in the lore and in the game. I’ve shown the scans to prove it. It’s written in black and white. And to answer your question, I believe that the Witch Trials happened after the Final fight & I’ve given a reason (with scans) as to why that would be possible. Also the Witch Trials are a part of the story. They’re labeled as chapters like every other level & can’t be played outside of the story. It all counts towards Bayonetta Glass, whether you like it or you don’t.

2.) I have to agree with @WeeklyBattles context is important here. We’re given examples of Bayonetta holding her own against Loptr (reacting to & evading his attacks, countering his attacks in qtes, rag-dolling him etc.) during their fights, but you like to take certain specific points out of context, put a magnifying glass on them, tell people to focus on those & only those and ignore everything else. For example, Loptr did in fact blast Bayonetta, (it was 3 blasts btw, just saying), rendering her unable to stand for a few seconds for him to brag. However, you ignore the fact that she got back up as if nothing happened and Loptr had to mind hax her to give himself an opening and keep her still. We’ve seen Bayonetta pushed to that point before & come out on top when she fought Father Balder. This does show that she’s weaker than Loptr, but only if you ignore everything that happened after his trash talking. Also…

-Jubileus was obviously stronger than Loptr, especially if you’re asking us to look at it visually, because visually there’s no comparison. Jubileus was creating universes while Loptr was throwing buildings & meteors.
-Alraune is more powerful than people think. Fact is, Rodin was after her & Rodin only hunts the rarest and most powerful demons in Inferno for his weapons, namely the few that can actually seriously injure him, push him to exhaustion, and potentially kill him. Alraune qualifies for this level due to Rodin’s desperation to catch her. And yes, while he did easily subdue Alraune, that’s because BAYONETTA beat her twice. So her own strength should be comparable to Rodin

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@WeeklyBattles none of your clips remotely back up what you're claiming, all you do is post random points and not argue against any of my points here.

My guy, your points are nonsensical and contradict every showing in the series. For example, one of your points was Bayonetta 'losing' to Kid Loptr by him throwing a rock at the battlefield and destroying it. To counter this:

This feat, Loptr throwing a city-sized meteor, happened in the same fight, and was dealt with casually.


And why does this matter? Because the feat was done by Madama Butterfly, with Rodin in his base form alone being casually stronger than a bloodlusted Madama Butterfly.


Meanwhile Bayo by Rodin's own admission stomped both of his prime forms.



Ergo, the claim that 'Kid Loki beat Bayo with a rock' is invalid as a much, much stronger feat was casually dealt with in the same fight by a character that Bayonetta scales significantly above.

Explanations of this kind have been done for all of your 'points' in this thread.

You mean an incomplete Jubileus which is stated by both Kamiya in one of the artbooks and in the game where she needs both eyes to be complete? Yeah that's not a counterargument to my points here.

Not at all, Jubileus wasnt incomplete, she was empowered. The Eyes of the world didnt even exist until Aesir created them after the events of the First Amageddon, long after Jubileus, Aesir, and Sheba fought. Jubileus never had the Eyes to begin with, so her having one Eye is above her normal level of power.

Prove Jubileus is stronger than Loptr, because the game shows otherwise.

Again, Loptr is half of Aesir's power, while Loki is the other half.

Muspelheim isn't canon here whatsoever, especially when Bayo couldn't beat loptr with one eye in the end of the game.

So it's not canonical to the actual story mode, so why should I take this seriously at all?

Scans or I'm not taking anything you say seriously.

Proof that its not canon? Youre the one demanding scans yet you make massive claims like that without scans to back up your own claims?

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

@Valiant_Abyss made a claim for Kid Loptr saying that this was Loptr at his weakest…except it wasn’t. This is the same Loptr that we’ve been dealing with. The fact that he tried to impersonate Loki & knew to refer to Bayonetta “love” proves this. In order to observe time, namely the past, present, and future, Aesir needed the eyes. Loptr didn’t have the eyes at all, so if this was just a weaker past Loptr from 500 years ago, there’s no way he would know these things. This is our same Loptr from the present day, meaning he’s just as strong & he STILL couldn’t kill Bayonetta.

He was serious and bloodlusted, & still ran away from a fight he started.

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

@Theglassman12 @Valiant_Abyss Bayonetta beating Father Balder-(whom I’ve already explained is above Loptr, with scans), plus beating Rodin and Alraune-(both twice), and supporting Queen Sheba’s weight and tanking Queen Sheba’s 1,000 Infiniton Punch-(the same level of force needed to finish off Aesir Bayo was still inside the sphere with Jubileus when the punch connected. The blow finished Jubileus and Father Balder but Bayonetta survived without a scratch) are all feats that contradict Loptr’s “victories”.

•You say Prophet is stronger than Bayonetta because he ragdolled her, made her unable to stand for a few seconds, and called her weak. But if you continue on with the same cutscene, she gets back up as if nothing happened implying that Loptr got too cocky too quickly and then he mind haxed her to give himself an opening. Plus she countered his attacks and ragdolled him twice in QTE’s-(these QTEs were cinematic not optional, meaning they happened in the story)

•You say Kid Loptr is stronger than Bayonetta because he blocked a kick, pushed her back, threw a PIECE OF A BUILDING at her destroying the platform they were fighting on, and then left to kill Rosa. I’m laughing because this not only contradicts all of Bayonetta’s feats in B1, but this also just a complete reach. Loptr claimed he was gonna kill her, tried to kill her, failed to kill her, ran away to kill Rosa so he could continue manipulating Balder strictly because he couldn’t kill Bayonetta. My last post explains this perfectly.

•You say endgame Loptr is above Bayonetta because he casually beat back both Balder and Bayonetta, effortlessly stopped Bayo’s bullets with a barrier, absorbs the Right Eye-(which is true), finally he casually killed her summons-(even though they’re weaker than her but okay), then he choked her out. Okay, let’s tackle this in order, 1.) He DID NOT fight both of them. Bayonetta was trying to get to Loki & Balder was trying to kill him and until he jumped in front of an attack meant for Bayonetta, Loptr couldn’t even hit him. Plus the two of them pounding him after the eyes were erased proves that they could’ve beaten him if they worked together from the start. 2.) PLENTY Of enemies have blocked/evaded her bullets. This isn’t impressive in the slightest. 3.) We’re shown from the beginning that power is no longer a factor in this fight once he gets the Sovereign Power and snatches the Right Eye from Balder. Mans says verbatim, “I now have the power to freely control the eyes as I wish.” 4.) Bayonetta is obviously much stronger than her Demons, being able to lift & tank punches from Queen Sheba plus beating the Golems-(who mimic her demons), the Cardinal Virtues-(who match her demons), Father Balder-(who one-shot her demons), Rodin-(who was a ruler of Paradiso and comparable to Jubileus in her prime & is stated to be the strongest demon in Inferno) and Alraune-(who is Semi-Rodin + Semi-Sheba level). Compared to all that, Loptr dusting her demons isn’t impressive. It barely makes him Father Balder level. 5.) His best feat is getting to Bayo & choking her. But he used the Sovereign Power to activate the Left Eye-(making her go limp) and take it from her. There’s a reason why her eye is twitching as she struggles to stand. That should have knocked her unconscious. He canonically couldn’t accomplish this without the Sovereign Power so this isn’t due to his own strength. Loptr hasn’t done one Right Eye level feat at all. I mean for God’s sakes, Luka of all people was able to blitz him after he got it.

•I’ve explained Bayonetta matching and be comparable to Aesir a multitude of ways with a multitude of scans. I’ve addressed the Loptr card as small instances taken way out of context. Prophet: too cocky too quick + mind hax. Kid Loptr: just as powerful as regular Loptr, ran away from a fight he started + couldn’t kill Bayonetta. Loptr: unimpressive displays of power + over reliant on SP. Aesir: Tit 4 Tat. Witch Trials in Muspilhiem: Canon.

 

[BayonettaxMinaj]

@Comicgyal @WeeklyBattles There is no longer a need to address Loptr any further. Bayonetta proved herself comparable to Aesir before the Eyes were erased. She alone also proved herself comparable to Aesir and Loptr after the fact. And the lore explains how that would be possible. What’s understood needs no further understanding.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Re-confirmed with another translator, there is no utilization of infinite, endless, countless, or anything of the sort.

「歴史の観測者」たる力を持ったエーシルは、 我々とは全く違う次元に生き、起こり得る複数の可能性が同時に重なり合った状態の歴史を、時空を超越した視点から観測していたとされる。

複数の可能 = Multiple possibilities.

So, for the most part, this thread is essentially pointless, unless you guys want to continue arguing about Loptr vs Bayonetta.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well isn't that anticlimactic......

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

womp womp womp. That’s unfortunate.

Fate hax still needs to be added to eye holders though (not that they use it anyways :c)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Re-confirmed with another translator, there is no utilization of infinite, endless, countless, or anything of the sort.



複数の可能 = Multiple possibilities.

So, for the most part, this thread is essentially pointless, unless you guys want to continue arguing about Loptr vs Bayonetta.

The english translation in-game says infinite

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The english translation in-game says infinite

And Bayonetta is a Japanese game. Therefore, the Japanese original text takes priority.

 

[Comicgyal]

This thread can be closed then, I’ll add the fate hax to the profiles

 

[Dienomite22]

Well from the looks of Bayonetta 3, there are possibly infinite alternate realities that exist in the Trinity of Realities. But that's something Bayonetta 3 has to answer.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Still think we should revise Aesir's stats in this thread seeing as we're all here already

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Still think we should revise Aesir's stats in this thread seeing as we're all here already

The majority agrees that Bayo gets slapped by him which is also in the profiles so nah

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The majority agrees that Bayo gets slapped by him which is also in the profiles so nah

No? Only two people claim that she gets slapped by him based on inaccurate arguments that heve been debunked half a dozen times in this thread alone, everyone else here agrees that she beats him

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Literally the crux of this crt was the argument that Aesir is 2-A and Bayo is 2-A for beating him

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The majority agrees that Bayo gets slapped by him which is also in the profiles so nah

Yeah, this part in particular. That needs to be changed. It's extremely misleading and factually incorrect

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the descriptions in Aesir's profiles could just be updated accordingly. Anyway, I'm in agreement that Comicgyal is making the most sense here.

 

[Theglassman12]

Aside from clarifying the mistranslation for Aesir, I don't really see the point in updating Aesir's page given the amount of disagreements we have for bayonetta being stronger. Either way this CRT has nothing to do with loptr and bayo scaling, just the 2-A in general and to an extent fate hax, so I'm closing this thread. Fate hax can be added, 2-A no.

 

[Abstractions]

I believe this thread was (while close to conclusion) closed prematurely. Discussion regarding Loptr and Bayo scaling should be the main topic all things considered now so let's keep it to that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I believe this thread was (while close to conclusion) closed prematurely. Discussion regarding Loptr and Bayo scaling should be the main topic all things considered now so let's keep it to that.

Agreed, I was about to ask AKM Sama before reopening it. But I also think the thread was closed prematurely without properly discussing it in detail.

 

[Comicgyal]

Okay, we can definitely restructure our scaling. I assumed a new thread would have been better, since it would be lots of information.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Abstractions loptr and bayo scaling was not the main topic, the main topic was buffing the 2-C characters to 2-A, which got concluded. Loptr and Bayo's scaling has nothing to do with the OP, so it might as well be its own CRT.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Abstractions loptr and bayo scaling was not the main topic, the main topic was buffing the 2-C characters to 2-A, which got concluded. Loptr and Bayo's scaling has nothing to do with the OP, so it might as well be its own CRT.

The topic was scaling Bayo and co. to 2-A because of the discussed adjusted scaling that scales her to Aesir and above Loptr

 

[Theglassman12]

Since I’ve proved that it’s an infinite multiverse, all that’s left is scaling. Not only do these universes exist because Aesir is observing them into existence, but with the eye he can affect his observations across all time.
This would scale to Aesir with both of his eyes, which would scale to Jubileus, which Rodin scales to, and so on. Everyone that is already 2-C would become 2-A.

None of this remotely mentions changing Loptr and Bayo's scaling, which btw a lot of folks in this very thread disagrees with, myself included.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

None of this remotely mentions changing Loptr and Bayo's scaling, which btw a lot of folks in this very thread disagrees with, myself included.

Its literally you and one other person who disagrees with it, every other person in this thread either agrees with it or is neutral. If you disagree with it then thats on you but overblowing the amount of support you have is not okay

 

[Theglassman12]

Only one other guy huh? More than 2 people disagree with the scaling Weekly, and you haven't done a good job of debunking our points since you keep bringing up irrelevant points that does not debunk our scans and claims.

 

[Abstractions]

@Abstractions loptr and bayo scaling was not the main topic, the main topic was buffing the 2-C characters to 2-A, which got concluded. Loptr and Bayo's scaling has nothing to do with the OP, so it might as well be its own CRT.

OP didn't seem to mind it being a part of the discussion and if it was currently being discussed in tandem with everything else then making an entire new thread for it isn't strictly necessary.

Okay, we can definitely restructure our scaling. I assumed a new thread would have been better, since it would be lots of information.

Talk to Weekly about it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Talk to Weekly about it.

I mean ive already brought it up in this thread, to summarize, Kid Loptr is half of Aesir's power, with Aesir being equal to Jubileus. Prophet Loptr is Kid Loptr after spending 500 years absorbing negative emotions to become stronger, but is still inferior to Aesir as he needed to absorb Loki's power in order to regain his former strength.

Since Aesir is equal to Jubileus, and the Eyes of the World didnt exist when Jubileus, Aesir, and Sheba fought and were only created after the fact, Jublieus at the end of the first game would logically be stronger than anything other than Aesir at the end of the second game.

Basically it would be:

Kid Loptr <<<<<< Prophet Loptr <<<< Aesir with the Sovereign Power = Jubileus < Right Eye Empowered Jubileus < Bayonetta 1 Byonetta < Both Eyes Empowered Aesir = Bayonetta 2 Bayonetta

 

[Theglassman12]

Why would Jubileus in the end of the first game be stronger than Loptr? She didn't defeat bayonetta with the left eye activated where Loptr did.

Also again, actually debunk our points against Bayonetta scaling to Loptr because you haven't done that.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Why would Jubileus in the end of the first game be stronger than Loptr? She didn't defeat bayonetta with the left eye activated where Loptr did.

Because, again, The Eyes of the World didnt exist before the First Armageddon, Aesir only created them after the fact, meaning that Jubileus at the end of the first game was empowered as her normal strength does not include the Eyes of the World. Meanwhile Loptr is half of Aesir's power, ergo half as strong as base Jubileus, let alone Right Eye amped Jubileus.

Also again, actually debunk our points against Bayonetta scaling to Loptr because you haven't done that.

Already been done multiple times in this thread alone as well as multiple threads in the past.

 

[Theglassman12]

That wasn’t normal Jubileus in the end of the first game, that was a nerfed Jubileus that Bayo fought. Claiming she’s remotely comparable to the god that stomps the character she lost to is ignoring what happens in the second game.

no you haven’t. You didn’t refute my points on Loptr and Base Loki beating Bayonetta. On top of the fact that my CRT got accepted and Loptr still has beating Bayonetta on several occasions in his reasoning while Bayonetta does not have anything that implies she’s stronger.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

That wasn’t normal Jubileus in the end of the first game, that was a nerfed Jubileus that Bayo fought. Claiming she’s remotely comparable to the god that stomps the character she lost to is ignoring what happens in the second game.

No, my guy, that was an amped Jubileus. Claiming that Jubileus was nerfed in Bayonetta 1 when she was empowered by something that only came into existence after the battle between her, Aesir, and Sheba is ignoring a massive chunk of the lore and the overarching plot of the franchise. Hell, the entire reason that Jubileus was even seeking out the Eyes in the first game was because Aesir possessed Balder, traveled back in time, and started looking for them so he could try to overwrite reality again using Jubileus as a new body.

no you haven’t. You didn’t refute my points on Loptr and Base Loki beating Bayonetta. On top of the fact that my CRT got accepted and Loptr still has beating Bayonetta on several occasions in his reasoning while Bayonetta does not have anything that implies she’s stronger.

I have. Comic has. Minaj has. Read through the thread.

 

[Theglassman12]

No it wasn't an amped Jubileus, Kamiya himself even said in one of the bayonetta artbooks that she wasn't remotely finished with her resurrection in the end of bayonetta 1 because she got resurrected in the human world instead of Paradiso, I'll find the scan when I get the time. Also for the nth time, post the scans that Jubileus in the first game is in anyway shape or form comparable to Loptr. Because the fact you aren't posting any scans at all makes me take your argument less seriously.

And you haven't actually debunked our points beyond taking the scenes out of context or point out a random event that means nothing when the end of each fight always ends with Bayo being at Loptr's mercy. None of the hax arguments you've posted remotely debunks the fact that Loptr shot 2 lasers and got Bayo on her knees struggling to get up right before he decides to use the "hax" you claim he does, which is right after he tells her to give him the eye when she barely got back up still panting. Or how Young Loptr punching her in the end of the fight did enough to get her severely injured with him throwing a building being enough to knock her out as we clearly see the next time we see her. Also weekly, if you tell me one more time that the building itself was what Loki needed to knock her out, you're flat out admitting she's not even that strong if a building was what's needed to knock her out and not Loptr's own power. Choose your words wisely, otherwise I'll just flat out say that she should be downgraded to 8-C by your own logic.