Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think Comicgyal is making more sense overall.

 

[Dienomite22]

Yeah it’s an alternate dimension, but it’s still connected to the trinity

Sure but only by a portal, unlike Purgatorio.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm not entirely savvy on Bayonetta lore so I can't confirm nor deny stuff. I can only argue based on what's shown to me, so you're going to have to explain to me what's going on.

 

[Comicgyal]

Sure but only by a portal, unlike Purgatorio.

How do you think Bayonetta and others get into purgatorio exactly? You guys keep saying purgatorio is different since it’s more closely layered, but purgatorio doesn’t have a door like the other trinitys, it’s only accessible via portals that witches and sages open. Can we stop pretending like the means to get to either dimension is totally different?

Yes purgatorio is closely layered to the human world, just because Muspelheim isn’t shaped like our universe, doesn’t mean it’s not connected to it. The place looks daringly similar to Alfheim, and takes the background of Paradiso, Inferno, and the human world as you travel into it. Saying that a dimension like that isn’t connected to the trinity, is just ignoring the facts.

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm not entirely savvy on Bayonetta lore so I can't confirm nor deny stuff. I can only argue based on what's shown to me, so you're going to have to explain to me what's going on.

Well it’s the same arguments as before, that being whether a dimension called Muspelheim is connected to the main three universes.

My claim is that it is, partially because the game says so:

“Have you ever heard of a doorway between this world and other realms? It may sound strange, but there are actually many such entrances in this world we live in. The gates that connect the three realms that make up this world are well-known” (cont)

“I have received information about a new doorway. I can't disclose my sources, but it seems to be a portal to a place called Muspelheim, a primordial world separated from the flow of time.”

And because Muspelheim takes on the backgrounds of the main universes.
Paradiso, Inferno, and the human universe.

Their claim is Muspelheim is not connected, and has no proof of being connected, despite well.. everything i just mentioned

 

[Theglassman12]

Muselpheim having similar backgrounds does not mean it’s a part of the Trinity of realities. Especially when said realities were merged there’s no proof that this dimension would be affected.

@Sir_Ovens The universal feat Jubileus has via Kamiya statement has a bit of trolling from Kamiya, so I’m questioning why we should have it.

@DarkDragonMedeus can I ask why it’s more reasonable to take a Kamiya statement in an interview where he makes a random innuendo as legit than a Twitter statement?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was referring to the "Trinity of Realities" statement, which is a synonym for "Trinity of Universes". I was actually reading up other statements Comicgyal brought up, I would not take an innuendo seriously, but "Trinity of Realities" and "Multiple axis's of time and space" are things brought up in the actual game.

 

[Comicgyal]

It wasn't Kamiya that made the universe statement. It was the colleague right next to him who said that, to which Kamiya agreed. Then after a pause, then Kamiya himself makes the innuendo.

Oh yeah, and the colleague who made the statement is Yusuke Hashimoto, the producer and enemy designer of Bayo 1 and also the director of Bayo 2 btw, so its not like his word is meaningless like some kind of random employee.

^

 

[Theglassman12]

Kamiya was the one who clarified it being a universe just like he clarified a Twitter question on a universal feat, on top of the fact that he’s basically the main guy behind Bayonetta.

 

[Comicgyal]

What Twitter feat are you even talking about? Kamiya Twitter statements aren’t used, I didn’t make the rule, so don’t argue with me about it lol. The documentary is factually correct and has the evidence to be so, it’s validity isn’t being taken into question by anyone else except you

 

[Theglassman12]

@DarkDragonMedeus that… does not answer my question on why these trinities of reality that have no mention of different flows of time or any separate space time dimensions would count for 2-C. And the Multiple axis of space and time doesn’t refer to the actual dimensions, just some random symbol of Aesir that’s specific points in space and time.

@Comicgyal The Mundus making a universe statement Kamiya gave on Twitter, that wasn’t remotely allowed on the wiki despite him clarifying a statement just because he’s trolled people there, but when he does a similar thing in a commentary that’s ok?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Yusuke (who should be a very credible source on his own to begin with) made the statement of it being a universe. Kamiya didn't clarify it, he nodded in agreement and said "yeah, a universe" and then after a brief pause, he makes the innuendo.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Alternate Universe" inherently means "Alternate timeline" given a multiverse is logically 2 or more timelines. It's not a Quilted Multiverse which is just one body of space consisting of an infinite number of near identical observable universes. Bubble multiverses where it's one timeline but a different body of space could have some bearing, but that's rarely a case unless it's like one Living World, next to a couple different afterlifes. But "Multiple space time axises" still inherently means either more than one flow of time or more than one spatio-temporal dimension. I'm still willing to lean towards the former and having no problems with 2-C with those details mentioned on previous threads, on this one, and on the profiles.

 

[Theglassman12]

They aren’t alternate universes tho, they’re a part of the original universe with no mentions of space and time being separate for them. And again, we barely get any explanation on what the Matrix of Space and time is supposed to reference.

 

[Comicgyal]

[

@Comicgyal The Mundus making a universe statement Kamiya gave on Twitter, that wasn’t remotely allowed on the wiki despite him clarifying a statement just because he’s trolled people there, but when he does a similar thing in a commentary that’s ok?

Yusuke (who should be a very credible source on his own to begin with) made the statement of it being a universe. Kamiya didn't clarify it, he nodded in agreement and said "yeah, a universe" and then after a brief pause, he makes the innuendo.

They aren’t alternate universes tho, they’re a part of the original universe with no mentions of space and time being separate for them. And again, we barely get any explanation on what the Matrix of Space and time is supposed to reference.

Are you talking about the ToR?

 

[Dienomite22]

How do you think Bayonetta and others get into purgatorio exactly? You guys keep saying purgatorio is different since it’s more closely layered, but purgatorio doesn’t have a door like the other trinitys, it’s only accessible via portals that witches and sages open. Can we stop pretending like the means to get to either dimension is totally different?

Purgatorio isn't just accessible via portals but that isn't the point. Just because Muspelheim is accessed via portals doesn't mean it's just like Purgatorio and should be included in the merge.

Yes purgatorio is closely layered to the human world, just because Muspelheim isn’t shaped like our universe, doesn’t mean it’s not connected to it. The place looks daringly similar to Alfheim, and takes the background of Paradiso, Inferno, and the human world as you travel into it. Saying that a dimension like that isn’t connected to the trinity, is just ignoring the facts.

Having the same background means nothing and Purgatorio isn't simply closely layered to the human world although that would still be enough reason for it to be considered a part of the merge, unlike Muspelheim. I don't think I need to keep repeating that Purgatorio abides by the Trinity’s space-time and that it's literally called the center of the trinity. Not acknowledging Purgatorio’s special qualities in order to barely make it similar to Muspelheim is ignoring facts.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes, I’m talking about the ToR, they’re literally fractions of the original universe, that’s one of the big lore pieces regarding these realms. The matrix of space and time thing DDM is mentioning I don’t recall ever being referred to these separate realities. If there’s any scans for that being the case I’d like to see them so I can get behind 2-C, but if there is none I don’t see why this is the case beyond assumptions.

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m confused on what you’re saying lol, 2-C for two eye wielders, or single eye wielders?

 

[Theglassman12]

For the two eye wielders, the merging feat is exclusive to the two eyes. The one eye I don’t buy 2-C, at best it’s Low 2-C and that’s assuming we take the statement for the layers of the dimensions as alternate space time for the sphere Jubileus makes.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Okay before we continue the single eye debate, can you at least say whether or not you agree with getting rid of possibly for the 2 eye wielders?

 

[Theglassman12]

I don’t agree with removing the possibly. The reason why I’m ok with possibly is because we don’t have concrete proof that the alternate timeline that was made would be affected beyond “balder foresaw the events”, which doesn’t automatically mean the two timelines would be merged. I’m fine with 3-A possibly 2-C for that.

 

[Comicgyal]

Okay, well uh I guess we just wait for the other staff member (sir ovens?) to give his opinion. Since masters is neutral, and ddm still agrees with me.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I mean its Glass' opinion against how many other staff members and other users? I seriously hope that its not being considered to undo an entire CRT just because a single user disagrees with it

 

[Theglassman12]

Says the guy who tried to halt numerous CRTs just because you had a disagreement despite most of your arguments being debunked. You have no right complaining about this when you did the same stunt numerous times Weekly.

Anyways once KingTempest and Ovens gives their opinion we can finish this CRT

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Guys, can we not spew drama?

 

[Antvasima]

@Sir_Ovens @KingTempest @DarkDragonMedeus

So what do you think about Glassman's evaluations?

 

[KingTempest]

Still agreeing w/ ComicGyal

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Same

 

[Comicgyal]

I’m pretty sure we should be fine here then

 

[Antvasima]

Probably, yes.

 

[Comicgyal]

All revisions are done, so this thread can be closed.