1-B Bayonetta Verse Upgrades

[Georredannea15]

Yes, Nilf is deeper than Ginnun, not between it and the Multiverse.

I will ask you something. Why do we interpret it as a qualitative transcendence that is outside of the multiverse and deeper than it? What else do we have for qualitative transcendence? If that's all our statements are, it's certainly not enough by current standards. I'll read the OP again just to be sure.

 

[Comicgyal]

I will ask you something. Why do we interpret it as a qualitative transcendence that is outside of the multiverse and deeper than it? What else do we have for qualitative transcendence? If that's all our statements are, it's certainly not enough by current standards. I'll read the OP again just to be sure.

I've explained my reasoning to you multiple times already.

 

[Georredannea15]

I've explained my reasoning to you multiple times already.

Can you quote again?

 

[Comicgyal]

Ginnungagaps explicit relationship with the multiverse is exactly why it we can derive a qualitative viewpoint. in the diamond scan, and in all scans related to it, the layers that make up the multiverse are all given the same importance, and qualities. There is no difference made between Ginnungagap and Nilfheim as layers, and neither the multiverse itself. Because Ginnun encompasses the layer (the multiverse) and all other layers below it, why wouldn’t Nilfheim as a layer that’s said to be deeper than it not also have a qualitative relationship?

Nilfheim is not housed within Ginnun, which already encompasses the entire Multiverse. So it would not make sense for Nilfheim as a layer to also be 4-D, since it is contained by nothing. Basically Ginnungagap encompasses the multiverse due to its superior size. If Nilfheim is also 4-D it too should be contained, especially since it’s compared to ginnun.

Can you quote again?

And reference the OP again. Pretty sure your question is why Nilfheim is considered 6-D according to my evidence?

 

[Comicgyal]

You confused me earlier because you said yes to it being between.

By the way, while you look over 6-D, can you look over the likely High 1C arguments as well?

 

[Georredannea15]

And reference the OP again. Pretty sure your question is why Nilfheim is considered 6-D according to my evidence?

First, the biggest arguments you have are:

Nilfheim being deeper than Gunningagap which contains the Multiverse.

And it exists outside of the multiverse.

That makes it at least 5-D, but I still haven't seen anything for 6-D. Because this is deeper and more powerful than a 5-D structure and you can still be 5-D. These expressions only give you the hax layer. The reason for this is the difference in depth and power between the layers, but qualitative transcendence is not achieved so simply.

You will need more statemetnts for qualitative transcendence, such as the statements " size"comparison between nilfheim and the multiverse(like a point or nothing more than an atom). 6-D seems a bit problematic. Also, as I said, even if this is 6-D, there is still no qualitative transcendence between the other layers.

Ginnungagaps explicit relationship with the multiverse is exactly why it we can derive a qualitative viewpoint. in the diamond scan, and in all scans related to it, the layers that make up the multiverse are all given the same importance, and qualities. There is no difference made between Ginnungagap and Nilfheim as layers, and neither the multiverse itself. Because Ginnun encompasses the layer (the multiverse) and all other layers below it, why wouldn’t Nilfheim as a layer that’s said to be deeper than it not also have a qualitative relationship?

Actually, what you said supports me. The difference in quality between the layers is the same.

In short, they have the same dimensional quality but are deeper and stronger layers than each other. It's just gives you hax layers.

And I still see no explanation here that Nilfheim would be qualitatively superior to Gunningagap.

Nilfheim is not housed within Ginnun, which already encompasses the entire Multiverse. So it would not make sense for Nilfheim as a layer to also be 4-D, since it is contained by nothing. Basically Ginnungagap encompasses the multiverse due to its superior size. If Nilfheim is also 4-D it too should be contained, especially since it’s compared to ginnun.

This pulls Nilfheim higher than the Gunningagap(5-D) and Nilfheim automatically scales from 4-D to 5-D. But still nothing to put Nilfheim above Gunningagap in qualitative.

Nilfheim is a deeper realm that contains only them. No, however I think about it, I still do not see a qualitative transcendence.

It may just be a realm that isn't in it and is deeper than it, but still 5-D. For 6-D you need more statements. Because the difference between this layers seems more like a quantitative superiority than a qualitative one. And that gives it only hax layers.(Like MG)

I hope it is understandable.

 

[Comicgyal]

I understand your points, as you’ve said them multiple times in the thread. Though, as two other staff members have already agreed with 6-D, it does qualify for standards through their lenses. It isn’t simply that Nilfheim is deeper, but that as layers they share the same quality of encompassing/being superior to the layers beneath them. Shown through Ginnuns relationship with the multiverse, and nilfheims relationship to Ginnungagap and the multiverse.

 

[Georredannea15]

I understand your points, as you’ve said them multiple times in the thread. Though, as two other staff members have already agreed with 6-D,

To get away with saying something like that actually means not being able to present any more arguments. If you have more statements feel free to add to the OP but unfortunately you cannot gain qualitative transcendence with these expressions and there are many examples of this before.

it does qualify for standards through their lenses. It isn’t simply that Nilfheim is deeper, but that as layers they share the same quality of encompassing/being superior to the layers beneath them. Shown through Ginnuns relationship with the multiverse, and nilfheims relationship to Ginnungagap and the multiverse.

I already explained this above . In addition, you must get at least 3-4 staff approval for Tier 1 revisions. So this is how the system works.

 

[Comicgyal]

To get away with saying something like that actually means not being able to present any more arguments. If you have more statements feel free to add to the OP but unfortunately you cannot gain qualitative transcendence with these expressions and there are many examples of this before.

I already explained this above . In addition, you must get at least 3-4 staff approval for Tier 1 revisions. So this is how the system works.

No, I just don’t have to engage in a circular argument with you over and over. I’ve called upon more staff to evaluate, which two have, and now I’m waiting for firestorm. There would be no reason for me to reiterate my points when you already disagree.

And yes, whatever firestorms verdict is, will decide how we operate going forward. Should they choose to comment again.

 

[Georredannea15]

No, I just don’t have to engage in a circular argument with you over and over. I’ve called upon more staff to evaluate, which two have, and now I’m waiting for firestorm. There would be no reason for me to reiterate my points when you already disagree.

And yes, whatever firestorms verdict is, will decide how we operate going forward. Should they choose to comment again.

Yes I know. And I say you need a lot of staff in such revisions.

 

[Comicgyal]

You don’t need that many. I’ve done many tier 1 threads before, it just depends on what’s being proposed. Firestorm will be enough.

 

[Georredannea15]

You don’t need that many. I’ve done many tier 1 threads before, it just depends on what’s being proposed. Firestorm will be enough.

No really. There is a certain standard and for Tier 1 you will need at least 3-4 staff approvals.

 

[Asdtgh]

I understand your points, as you’ve said them multiple times in the thread. Though, as two other staff members have already agreed with 6-D, it does qualify for standards through their lenses. It isn’t simply that Nilfheim is deeper, but that as layers they share the same quality of encompassing/being superior to the layers beneath them. Shown through Ginnuns relationship with the multiverse, and nilfheims relationship to Ginnungagap and the multiverse.

Just because two staffs agreed to 6-D, that doesn't make the diamond layer proposal anymore appealing. It's only Ginnungagap and Nifelheim (not really) that has the proper qualifications for higher dimensionality, but I have to keep repeating myself:

The diamonds are not layered dimensions of QS.

Just because the word "layer" has been stated multiple times in the games, that should not excuse the context behind what the layers exactly are. This is exactly the problem when a piece of media says dimension. Is it a parallel universe, a pocket world, or a legitimate spatial dimension axis similar to simple 3Ds

 

[Comicgyal]

Just because two staffs agreed to 6-D, that doesn't make the diamond layer proposal anymore appealing. It's only Ginnungagap and Nifelheim (not really) that has the proper qualifications for higher dimensionality, but I have to keep repeating myself:

The diamonds are not layered dimensions of QS.

Just because the word "layer" has been stated multiple times in the games, that should not excuse the context behind what the layers exactly are. This is exactly the problem when a piece of media says dimension. Is it a parallel universe, a pocket world, or a legitimate spatial dimension axis similar to simple 3Ds

Well, that’s exactly why I called Fire in to give their opinion on both 6-D and the diamonds as the third and final (?) staff member.

Also I already addressed what context dimension was used in before, im not going off just the word itself.

 

[Asdtgh]

Well, that’s exactly why I called Fire in to give their opinion on both 6-D and the diamonds as the third and final (?) staff member.

Also I already addressed what context dimension was used in before, im not going off just the word itself.

Alright then

 

[Georredannea15]

Just because two staffs agreed to 6-D, that doesn't make the diamond layer proposal anymore appealing. It's only Ginnungagap and Nifelheim (not really) that has the proper qualifications for higher dimensionality, but I have to keep repeating myself:

The diamonds are not layered dimensions of QS.

Just because the word "layer" has been stated multiple times in the games, that should not excuse the context behind what the layers exactly are. This is exactly the problem when a piece of media says dimension. Is it a parallel universe, a pocket world, or a legitimate spatial dimension axis similar to simple 3Ds

That's what I meant actually, Layers and H1-C don't really work here. And in my opinion, there is still not enough testimony and evidence for 6-D, but we have to wait for the staff.

 

[Asdtgh]

That's what I meant actually, Layers and H1-C don't really work here. And in my opinion, there is still not enough testimony and evidence for 6-D, but we have to wait for the staff.

Yeah, we're gonna have to wait for what the next staff has to say. Maybe include like 4 more staffs lol who knows

 

[PrinceofPein]

15D or 11D does not work since extraordinary claims should provide extraordinary evidence and not speculations

I should also add, a layer deeper than another layer does not mean QS in any form unless there are more contexts to it

5D looks good though
Also OP should provide TL of the scans

 

[Comicgyal]

All scans have translations, but I’ll put you as disagree

 

[PrinceofPein]

All scans have translations, but I’ll put you as disagree

I agree with 5D so not really disagree, I find the 6D insufficient since you did not prove there is QS between the layers and the 15D is speculative at best

 

[Comicgyal]

I agree with 5D so not really disagree, I find the 6D insufficient since you did not prove there is QS between the layers and the 15D is speculative at best

5D is not what’s being discussed, they are already 5D.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Rodin himself supports this, with his dialogue on how the universe is structured:

“ Among the Trinity worlds, this “Chaos World” has a Multilayered structure consisting of countless overlapping universes. “

Multi-layered structure consisting of countless overlapping universes. That’s not him suggesting that there’s a distinction between the Multiverse and World of Chaos, in all they sound synonymous, and the usage of the word consisting implies that multi-layered isn’t an independent trait, they’re multi-layered because they’re overlapping universes.

I’ve established above what layers are in reference to, but to reiterate, spaces like Ginnungagap are considered a layer in the World of Chaos despite encompassing it. So he became everything, not just the multiverse.

This is further apparent because Singularity obliterates and absorbs the essence of everything he erases, as stated in his excerpt.

No, you didn’t. The only thing you mentioned in reference to layers is seemingly this scan, which doesn’t exactly say anything of note. Why does this not refer to the, again, countlessly overlapping layers in the multiverse? Is there anything that explicitly mentions a lack of distinguishing between the World of Chaos, and Ginunungagap?

Also, no, what you mentioned is an extrapolation of the actual text. It says he absorbs the essences of the worlds he erases:

Moreover, Singularity recalls the Arch Eves of all the worlds it's comprised of, . . .

By your own scans, this is only consistent when he destroys another space-time, in this case, the Alphaverse, along with this scan:

The self-titled "Singularity" comes from a parallel world dubbed the "Alphaverse", and is the lord of the swarm of artificial lifeforms, the Homunculi. It has caused the erasure of various realms across the Trinity of Realities to unify the realm of chaos — which has been weakened by its splitting into countless fractions — into a single reality.

But this scan is particularly important, especially because of an earlier claim that you made, which was this.

You’re confusing the Multiverse as the World of Chaos. I make the distinction in the OP multiple times that the Multiverse is one thing, and the World of Chaos refers to everything, not just the Multiverse.

You asserted the multiverse and World of Chaos aren’t synonymous and distinct, but the prior scan, again, explicitly confirms the opposite:

The self-titled "Singularity" comes from a parallel world dubbed the "Alphaverse", and is the lord of the swarm of artificial lifeforms, the Homunculi. It has caused the erasure of various realms across the Trinity of Realities to unify the realm of chaos — which has been weakened by its splitting into countless fractions — into a single reality.

Take note of the usage of “countless fractions”, and “unify the realm of chaos — into a single reality”. This is, verbatim, the exact synopsis Rodin supposed Singularity was doing. Note, again, the word “unify” (統合) is there.

Singularity has explicitly stated to become one with the Chaotic Energy of the multiverse, which would objectively puts his HDE at only a 4-D level. Singularity Chaos, again, explicitly absorbed the energy from the parallel universes of the multiverse, which brings his attack power to the limit. It mentions he’s swollen due to the power of the World of Chaos, which, again, is synonymously used, unless you’re asserting Singularity is gaining two sources of power. The Realm of Chaos was split into countless fractions -> The Chaos World is a multi-layered structure, with countless universes -> Singularity seeks to unify the Realm of Chaos -> Rodin says correcting the multiverse by unifying them. Singularity Chaos is amped by the Chaos Energy of the Multiverse -> Singularity Definition became one with the Chaotic Energy of the Multiverse. By the transitive property, The Realm of Chaos = The Multiverse.

Note, both Singularity Chaos & Definition claim they only got power from the parallel worlds, at no time is it ever stated that they were even further amplified by Ginunungagap.

(Which is something I’ll be mulling over, for later reasons.)

Also as I said in the OP, alternate dimensions does not refer to universes.

It says “parallel dimensions”. Oddly enough, parallel universes is also used, along with the “57-dimensional transfer” scan. Considering the fact that this games entire premise is, literally, the multiverse, I’m more inclined to utilize Occam’s razor, and assert that this just refers to parallel universes.

During this statement no other universe except for his own existed, so alternate dimensions is not in reference to universes.

Can you elaborate when this statement takes place? I’m confused.

Superior as whole realms— the excerpt states the WoC was weakened due to being split into countless universes. Which logically means Paradiso, that’s already been stated to be larger than the World of Chaos, and Paradiso are superior as whole universes.

You can be superior, and be larger, to something 4-D and still not be tier 1.

Ginnungagaps explicit relationship with the multiverse is exactly why it we can derive a qualitative viewpoint. in the diamond scan, and in all scans related to it, the layers that make up the multiverse are all given the same importance, and qualities. There is no difference made between Ginnungagap and Nilfheim as layers, and neither the multiverse itself.

As Ovens, and others noted, there really isn’t any stated qualitative superiority in the Diamonds.

There is no difference made between Ginnungagap and Nilfheim as layers, and neither the multiverse itself. Because Ginnun encompasses the layer (the multiverse) and all other layers below it, why wouldn’t Nilfheim as a layer that’s said to be deeper than it not also have a qualitative relationship?

This doesn’t explain anything. Just because there’s no difference doesn’t mean the alternative possibility automatically assumes it is qualitative, which brings me to a deeper point: why does it being deeper matter? Is Nilfheim sustaining the former’s existence? Does it too encompass Ginnungagap? Is it stated infinitely bigger than it? Why does deeper even necessarily mean anything here? Also,

Hm. I can't afford to confirm it calmly.

He quite literally says he can’t afford to confirm it. So, why, exactly, is it being treated as such a definitive statement? It seems like that was entirely ignored, which is odd.

Overall, put me as a disagree for virtually everything on this thread.

 

[Comicgyal]

Multi-layered structure consisting of countless overlapping universes. That’s not him suggesting that there’s a distinction between the Multiverse and World of Chaos, in all they sound synonymous, and the usage of the word consisting implies that multi-layered isn’t an independent trait, they’re multi-layered because they’re overlapping universes.

I won’t focus on this part too much, because it’s a debate of wording, but I disagree. Rodin saying that it’s a Multilayered structure comes first, he establishes that as a base. He then proceeds to follow by saying it consists of countless universes, another quality that the World of Chaos has.

No, you didn’t. The only thing you mentioned in reference to layers is seemingly this scan, which doesn’t exactly say anything of note. Why does this not refer to the, again, countlessly overlapping layers in the multiverse? Is there anything that explicitly mentions a lack of distinguishing between the World of Chaos, and Ginunungagap?

That is not the only scan I used, infact, the OP even mentions it. Nilfheim and Ginnungagap are referred to as layers, so therefore layers in the contexts Im describing are not in reference to infinite universes.

By your own scans, this is only consistent when he destroys another space-time, in this case, the Alphaverse, along with this scan:



But this scan is particularly important, especially because of an earlier claim that you made, which was this.



You asserted the multiverse and World of Chaos aren’t synonymous and distinct, but the prior scan, again, explicitly confirms the opposite:



Take note of the usage of “countless fractions”, and “unify the realm of chaos — into a single reality”. This is, verbatim, the exact synopsis Rodin supposed Singularity was doing. Note, again, the word “unify” (統合) is there.

Singularity has explicitly stated to become one with the Chaotic Energy of the multiverse, which would objectively puts his HDE at only a 4-D level. Singularity Chaos, again, explicitly absorbed the energy from the parallel universes of the multiverse, which brings his attack power to the limit. It mentions he’s swollen due to the power of the World of Chaos, which, again, is synonymously used, unless you’re asserting Singularity is gaining two sources of power. The Realm of Chaos was split into countless fractions -> The Chaos World is a multi-layered structure, with countless universes -> Singularity seeks to unify the Realm of Chaos -> Rodin says correcting the multiverse by unifying them. Singularity Chaos is amped by the Chaos Energy of the Multiverse -> Singularity Definition became one with the Chaotic Energy of the Multiverse. By the transitive property, The Realm of Chaos = The Multiverse.

Note, both Singularity Chaos & Definition claim they only got power from the parallel worlds, at no time is it ever stated that they were even further amplified by Ginunungagap.

Either you didn’t acknowledge parts of my first message, or you forgot. But even if you do not believe The World Of Chaos and the Multiverse are seperate, the fact is that he gains powers of the worlds he destroys and absorbs. Which also happens to Ginnungagap, and every other structure within the World of Chaos. Which is why at the end of the story, the only “world” left, is the one singularity made himself. Ginnungagap, and every other layer no longer exists, because he’s destroyed and absorbed them, and is therefore comprised of them. There is no need for a specific note that he’s being empowered by ginnun, because it’s said plainly that he’s empowered by everything he’s destroyed and absorbed, which includes Ginnun. So no, his dimensionality does not cap at 4-D.

Can you elaborate when this statement takes place? I’m confused.

This statement is made after singularity has destroyed every universe, leaving only his own. That is why I say it does not refer to parallel universes, there are none.

You can be superior, and be larger, to something 4-D and still not be tier 1.

Note the entire part of my comment that I mentioned about balance, and how each of the worlds cannot gain more power than the other. In their native, whole state, they are the same dimensionality. Period.

As Ovens, and others noted, there really isn’t any stated qualitative superiority in the Diamonds.

As far as I can recall, Ovens never said there was no QS. Just that we aren’t told how to view the diagram, which is why he prefers not to use it.

This doesn’t explain anything. Just because there’s no difference doesn’t mean the alternative possibility automatically assumes it is qualitative, which brings me to a deeper point: why does it being deeper matter? Is Nilfheim sustaining the former’s existence? Does it too encompass Ginnungagap? Is it stated infinitely bigger than it? Why does deeper even necessarily mean anything here? Also,

Yes, it does. As we see here, portals to Nilfheim exist within Ginnungagap. Using them results in going to a deeper place than Ginnungagap , which as well houses the floating platforms which we know are to be the World’s memories, aka the World of Chaos. So, it as a layer encompasses the Multiverse, and due to the logic of layers encompassing and overlapping the layers beneath them, Nilfheim does the same for Ginnungagap.

He quite literally says he can’t afford to confirm it. So, why, exactly, is it being treated as such a definitive statement? It seems like that was entirely ignored, which is odd.

Overall, put me as a disagree for virtually everything on this thread.

He’s not referring to confirming whether it’s Nilfheim or not, he’s basically saying that he has no time to calmly wait around and assess his situation, due to the monsters surrounding him. As shown in the full English dialogue, I got the most important part (the layer portion) translated only for convenience.

That was unpleasant... and I have no idea where I am. Curse the luck... I thought I'd just take a closer look at that portal since it looked so strange, but of course I end up touching it... sometimes my carelessness and bad luck surprises even me. From the looks of things, this seems to be a deeper layer than Ginnungagap... but this is probably no time for a calm assessment of my surroundings.

Something else is here. Right, demons?! And if I don't take care of you first, I won't be going home with my report. Creator, grant these creatures your mercy and guide them after I release them from their corporeal bonds! Oh, and ah... grant me assurance that my doors back home are securely fastened! Prepare yourselves, as I have!"

The man while stumbling slightly, faces off against the encroaching horde of demons. As you feel the rising of a mixture of fear and fury, the images fade from your mind."

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I won’t focus on this part too much, because it’s a debate of wording, but I disagree. Rodin saying that it’s a Multilayered structure comes first, he establishes that as a base. He then proceeds to follow by saying it consists of countless universes, another quality that the World of Chaos has.

Those aren’t independent clauses. He says it has a multi-layered structure, with countless overlapping universes. These aren’t contradictory, and are part of the same sentence. A building is multi-layered by proxy of having multiple floors, but the floors and building aren’t distinct, they’re the same.

That is not the only scan I used, infact, the OP even mentions it. Nilfheim and Ginnungagap are referred to as layers, so therefore layers in the contexts Im describing are not in reference to infinite universes.

Sure, I suppose.

Either you didn’t acknowledge parts of my first message, or you forgot.

Probably forgot. Enlighten me tho.

But even if you do not believe The World Of Chaos and the Multiverse are seperate, the fact is that he gains powers of the worlds he destroys and absorbs. Which also happens to Ginnungagap, and every other structure within the World of Chaos. Which is why at the end of the story, the only “world” left, is the one singularity made himself. Ginnungagap, and every other layer no longer exists, because he’s destroyed and absorbed them, and is therefore comprised of them. There is no need for a specific note that he’s being empowered by ginnun, because it’s said plainly that he’s empowered by everything he’s destroyed and absorbed, which includes Ginnun. So no, his dimensionality does not cap at 4-D.

Not necessarily, no. You made the positive claim he was empowered by Ginunungagap, which means it’s on you to explicitly prove that he is empowered by it. The art book, and in-guide compendium only mention the multiverse, so I can assume, under Occam’s razor, that this power is only from the Chaos energy, from the Chaos World, which is the multiverse. I also don’t recall any characters noting he got stronger because he absorbed Ginunungagap, really. The entire premise is him taking the power from the worlds, so unless it’s proven that it amped him, I don’t have any inclination to assume the latter.

This statement is made after singularity has destroyed every universe, leaving only his own. That is why I say it does not refer to parallel universes, there are none.

Can you link, or give a time-stamp?

As far as I can recall, Ovens never said there was no QS. Just that we aren’t told how to view the diagram, which is why he prefers not to use it.

It leads to virtually the same conclusion, if it can’t be used, then it essentially doesn’t matter.

Yes, it does. As we see here, portals to Nilfheim exist within Ginnungagap. Using them results in going to a deeper place than Ginnungagap , which as well houses the floating platforms which we know are to be the World’s memories, aka the World of Chaos. So, it as a layer encompasses the Multiverse, and due to the logic of layers encompassing and overlapping the layers beneath them, Nilfheim does the same for Ginnungagap.

Ginnungagap has the explicit statement of encompassing, which isn’t exactly a trait of Niflheim, so saying it’s deeper implies the same doesn’t exactly hold up.

He’s not referring to confirming whether it’s Nilfheim or not, he’s basically saying that he has no time to calmly wait around and assess his situation, due to the monsters surrounding him. As shown in the full English dialogue, I got the most important part (the layer portion) translated only for convenience.

This doesn’t address the argument. If he can’t objectively assert his premise, regardless of reason, I don’t see why it’s being used in a definitive fashion. It just makes the statement dubious, at best, really.

Note the entire part of my comment that I mentioned about balance, and how each of the worlds cannot gain more power than the other. In their native, whole state, they are the same dimensionality. Period.

In this case, yeah, that would be 4-D, as I proved earlier, the World of Chaos is the multiverse. And if they cannot gain more power than another, than the argument of Paradiso being bigger sorta falls in on itself, and makes it inconsistent. How could the realms possibly been balanced in the first place, if the World of Chaos was fragmented and made weaker than the other realities, and yet Paradiso remains (last I saw) 1,000x bigger? Does not make a lot of sense.

Must sleep, though.

 

[Comicgyal]

Probably forgot. Enlighten me tho.


Not necessarily, no. You made the positive claim he was empowered by Ginunungagap, which means it’s on you to explicitly prove that he is empowered by it. The art book, and in-guide compendium only mention the multiverse, so I can assume, under Occam’s razor, that this power is only from the Chaos energy, from the Chaos World, which is the multiverse. I also don’t recall any characters noting he got stronger because he absorbed Ginunungagap, really. The entire premise is him taking the power from the worlds, so unless it’s proven that it amped him, I don’t have any inclination to assume the latter.

I do not need an explicit statement saying he was empowered by ginnun, because while it does say he’s powered by the multiverse, it’s also said he’s powered by the worlds he has absorbed. That includes Ginnungagap, since he destroyed and absorbed its essence, as he does with every world. It would be on you to prove why he wouldn’t have absorbed ginnuns power, despite us seeing him destroying it like he does every other universe. My point is proven.

Can you link, or give a time-stamp?

The statement is from his journal entry, after he’s absorbed all the universes. Though I can grab it in a bit.

Ginnungagap has the explicit statement of encompassing, which isn’t exactly a trait of Niflheim, so saying it’s deeper implies the same doesn’t exactly hold up.

Except for the fact that it’s shown. The platforms are the same ones that represent the Worlds memories crystallizing. Ginnungagap has the statement, and Nilfheim shows it in the exact same way. Not much of a difference here.

This doesn’t address the argument. If he can’t objectively assert his premise, regardless of reason, I don’t see why it’s being used in a definitive fashion. It just makes the statement dubious, at best, really.

It makes it a non-argument. He’s not assessing whether he’s in Nilfheim or not, he blatantly says that he’s in a deeper layer. He says that he has no time to calmly assess his situation further, due to the encroaching danger. I don’t see what’s dubious about that. That would be like if I landed in the jungle, acknowledged where I was, but said I can’t calmly assess that because there’s a gorilla behind me. I’m still in the jungle, just emotionally distressed.

In this case, yeah, that would be 4-D, as I proved earlier, the World of Chaos is the multiverse. And if they cannot gain more power than another, than the argument of Paradiso being bigger sorta falls in on itself, and makes it inconsistent. How could the realms possibly been balanced in the first place, if the World of Chaos was fragmented and made weaker than the other realities, and yet Paradiso remains (last I saw) 1,000x bigger? Does not make a lot of sense.

Must sleep, though.

The World of Chaos wasn’t always fragmented, it became that way. Also that statement was made before it was a multiverse. However despite Paradiso being bigger at the time, they were still considered balance. So size isn’t a factor at play here, just the realms spiritual energy, aka their dimensions/power.

Also it would be 5-D, it refers to the total structure, not just the multiverse.

 

[ZXareo]

I feel like there's a lot of confusion here...

Chaos/The Human Realm is everything. That includes Ginnungagap and Niflheim.
The World of Chaos is the Multiverse, 4D.
Singularity became one with the multiverse, thus, his HDE should only be 4D.

The diamonds are layers of space and time that overlap.
Niflheim and Ginnungagap are layers.
Ginnungagap's relationship with the World of Chaos (Multiverse) is that of which qualified as enough to bump from 4D to 5D.

 

[Asdtgh]

I feel like there's a lot of confusion here...

Chaos/The Human Realm is everything. That includes Ginnungagap and Niflheim.
The World of Chaos is the Multiverse, 4D.
Singularity became one with the multiverse, thus, his HDE should only be 4D.

The diamonds are layers of space and time that overlap.
Niflheim and Ginnungagap are layers.
Ginnungagap's relationship with the World of Chaos (Multiverse) is that of which qualified as enough to bump from 4D to 5D.

The diamonds don't qualify as layers other than Ginnungagap and (probably) Niflheim.

 

[ZXareo]

The diamonds don't qualify as layers other than Ginnungagap and (probably) Niflheim.

Reasoning being...?

 

[Asdtgh]

Reasoning being...?

They don't work at all the same way as higher dimensional tiering/levels. The diamonds are nothing but instances and frames of space-time that help build the timelines in each respective world's chronological order. The Remembrances of Time. They were what Loptr/Loki/Aesir and even Bayonetta with her Left Eye of Darkness are able to control to alter reality as proven throughout the second game. And fits quite well with the lore in Bayonetta 1 and 3

I've pointed this all out in my long post in page 1 of this thread. And brought up a similar study of physics that matches almost 1 to 1 exactly how the diamonds and even Aesir's powers work. Through Lorentz Transformation and in the format of a motion picture

 

[ZXareo]

They don't work at all the same way as higher dimensional tiering/levels. The diamonds are nothing but instances and frames of space-time that help build the timelines in each respective world's chronological order. The Remembrances of Time. They were what Loptr/Loki/Aesir and even Bayonetta with her Left Eye of Darkness are able to control to alter reality as proven throughout the second game. And fits quite well with the lore in Bayonetta 1 and 3

I've pointed this all out in my long post in page 1 of this thread. And brought up a similar study of physics that matches almost 1 to 1 exactly how the diamonds and even Aesir's powers work. Through Lorentz Transformation and in the format of a motion picture

You think the diamonds are the Remembrance of Time?

 

[Asdtgh]

You think the diamonds are the Remembrance of Time?

Yes. Because throughout the lore and games, there has been a consistent display of feats surrounding only the manipulation of space-time relativity along with reality warping regarding a multiverse due to the Many World Theory, and more. But rarely going that in-depth on higher dimensionality other than Ginnungagap and Aesir's space-time transcendence statements. (Edit: And the Angels like Urbane's RAW description)

And under the context of Bayonetta 2, the game has made it a point on the secondary McGuffin, the Remembrances of Time, being what drives the plot and has been used by both Loki and Loptr. Thus, allowing the user to rewind time or fast forwarding it from past to future. Even the Journal's Echoes made it quite clear, along with the dev team's commentary on Bayo 1 and Congestus' description in Bayo 3 confirming my point.

The diamonds are not dimensions of QS quality

 

[ZXareo]

Yes. Because throughout the lore and games, there has been a consistent display of feats surrounding only the manipulation of space-time relativity along with reality warping regarding a multiverse due to the Many World Theory, and more. But rarely going that in-depth on higher dimensionality other than Ginnungagap and Aesir's space-time transcendence statements. (Edit: And the Angels like Urbane's RAW description)

And under the context of Bayonetta 2, the game has made it a point on the secondary McGuffin, the Remembrances of Time, being what drives the plot and has been used by both Loki and Loptr. Thus, allowing the user to rewind time or fast forwarding it from past to future. Even the Journal's Echoes made it quite clear, along with the dev team's commentary on Bayo 1 and Congestus' description in Bayo 3 confirming my point.

The diamonds are not dimensions of QS quality

So you think they made separate journals for the diamonds and the Remembrance of Time just to confuse people, and the statement of Niflheim being a "deeper layer" than Ginnungagap is completely unrelated to the one other place where layers are used...?
The Remembrance of Time are never referred to as layers, and your perspective would mean that the Remembrance of Time would have started from the beginning of history to the very end. The Remembrance of Time began when Aesir started committing to memory their lives so that they could live on longer. When Aesir died, these obviously stopped being made. He didn't have some autoclicker to keep making them.

 

[Asdtgh]

So you think they made separate journals for the diamonds and the Remembrance of Time just to confuse people,

No, I'm simply stating that the people who worked on this CRT confused themselves when trying to compare the diamond layers stated in Luka's Journal with the Echo of Memory describing the Niflheim being a deeper layer than Ginnungagap.

and the statement of Niflheim being a "deeper layer" than Ginnungagap is completely unrelated to the one other place where layers are used...?

And no, because these diamond layers aren't even having the same properties as Niflheim, another issue in this CRT scaling since the Lumen Sage never took the realm into a proper assessment when he was scanning his environment. This is because he was in a slight panic when Infernal Demons were popping up. So having a person be tensed, even at the bare minimum, might cause him to assess the situation with Niflheim inaccurately due to his unclear mind. Even lacking the time to confirm what Niflheim is.

The Remembrance of Time are never referred to as layers, and your perspective would mean that the Remembrance of Time would have started from the beginning of history to the very end.

And yes, they do go from start to end. Here, let me give you a long-a55 history (TED) talk.

Aesir is considered to be the Chaos God of the Human World that helped said world and its inhabitants be able to define the reality they see by solidifying it. Luka's monologue in Bayonetta 2's entry clearly explains this as well:

Aesir

This page details the original Aesir prior to his split of Loki and Loptr as well as Loptr's ascension. To see the version in which Loptr ascended to, see "Aesir (Loptr)". The original Aesir (also known as The Overseer and the God of Chaos) is the supernatural being that is frequently mentioned...

bayonetta.fandom.com

He was also considered to have identified an infinite number of possibilities that are LAYERED to form history. [Read Aesir (Loptr)'s description in the Hierarchy of Laguna files in Bayonetta 2 here: ]

"When the three worlds were divided at the dawn of time, Aesir was chosen to rule the World of Chaos. Possessing the power of the "Overseer", he existed in a dimension different from our own, watching over infinite possibilities that layered to form history from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space."

The Remembrance of Time began when Aesir started committing to memory their lives so that they could live on longer. When Aesir died, these obviously stopped being made.

Please do read the Fragments of Memory entry in Journal's Echoes carefully.

"Strange events sometimes work their way into our everyday lives. Stories abound: flashbacks from places you have no memory of, a kid who suddenly starts speaking a foreign tongue, or a voice in your head that ends up saving your life... The list goes on and on and on.

These are said to happen when people come into contact with the remnants of memory left behind in this world by God. The God of the human realm had special eyes that could see all existence and happenings across the Earth. They could see the fate of whomever they gazed upon--their present, past, and future. Everything. God loved the human world, and his kind heart began to feel sadness for mankind. He decided to commit to memory every detail of their fleeting lives, almost like you'd take a photo.

He ended up doing it so much that eventually even he forgot about them, and these records were left scattered across the Earth. These are known as the remnants of memory. They usually can't be seen or felt, but the truth in these memories could be anywhere: you could be standing within God's memories right now."

Aesir didn't "take a photo" of their existences just so they can "live longer", he wanted to preserve the culture, lives and beauty of Noatun and other humans by memorising the Remembrances of Time by heart. Especially since they're not like him, an immortal god that lives forever. That's the exact point of taking a picture. To preserve the present as history. And in his case, also what could've been. Flashbacks to places one has yet to visit or a child speaking a new language. At least, this is what I speculate when I read the journal's entry. But it does sound logical. Hell, Luka's own pages are scattered across Noatun with no proper order during Bayonetta's adventure. In areas that they shouldn't even be at.
Deep underwater,
in a different realm,
areas he wouldn't have been able to reach yet or at all unlike Bayo, etc.

Just like the Remembrances of Time.

And this is all thanks to his Eyes of The World. Let me remind you, it includes the fates and futures of all existences. Even if he stopped doing it (despite him already be beyond space-time an spent an eternity or more), there's still the fact that the Eyes of The World are still around and present to continue forming space-time by its relativity and chronology.

The Dev team who made the games commented in their Bayonetta 1 stream, they stated that by changing the series of events for Little Cereza's character development caused the Left Eye of Darkness to reawaken while also taking into account of birthing a new time axis, exactly like how Aesir can perceive new possibilities. Where Bayonetta wasn't in shock and awe from the First Armageddon and fought bravely with Jeanne against the forces of Paradiso:

https://imgur.io/gallery/tppn3YF

He didn't have some autoclicker to keep making them.

Speaking of witches, I should also mention that these eyes were given to the Lumen Sage and Umbra Witch clans to oversee the development and peace of mankind as they were doing their duties. Again, the Bayonetta 1 and 2 lore do follow this through.

Eyes of the World

The Eyes of the World (called individually the Left Eye of Darkness and the Right Eye of Light) were a set of ancient powers and the "treasures" of the Lumen Sages and the Umbra Witches. The sages were given the Right Eye while the Umbra Witches received the Left Eye.[1] The Eyes of the World...

bayonetta.fandom.com

...so yeah, he did have an auto-clicker lol.

Finally, even if I misused the name for the layers as Remembrances of Time, they still utilise the same mechanics as the RoTs. As they're all still the visions of an all-seeing, all-knowing God Aesir. Pieces of a world that formulates each timeline from start to end. As you've managed to understand and point out. And as this is exactly what his motif is in his trademark. Lumen Sages' crest is the Sun because their motif is Light Arts, Umbra Witches' is the Moon because their motif is Dark Arts, Aesir's are diamonds because they literally have a four-sided shaped frame designed as diamonds since his motif is Space-Time relativity manipulation of many worlds. Not dimensional hierarchy.

I'll repeat this as a conclusion, Lorentz Transformation. And the Horse in Motion. 'Nuff said.

Besides, the way the Bayonetta lore is using the word "layer" is already following the same issues as addressing a scan or statement of a piece of media talking about how Entity A caused an anomaly to a particular thing that had been named as "dimension".

Is this dimension that had been affected a

1. Pocket Dimension?
2. Alternate Timeline?
3. Or an actual Spatial Dimension with qualities that can be accepted as a higher dimension above the lower ones?

Comicgyal, Minaj and their team ignored this FAQ rule of VSBW on dimensions and immediately pasted anything with the word "layer" that looks like it can fit for Tier 1-C and higher Bayoverse without the thorough checks this CRT needed. No offense, guys.

Edit: Correcting my English and mispellings

 

[Comicgyal]

I feel like there's a lot of confusion here...

Chaos/The Human Realm is everything. That includes Ginnungagap and Niflheim.
The World of Chaos is the Multiverse, 4D.
Singularity became one with the multiverse, thus, his HDE should only be 4D.

Whether you believe the World of Chaos is the multiverse or not, is of no importance to my argument. The point is, that his body is comprised of the worlds he has destroyed. To that, Ginnungagap is included. Insane Ginnungagap is stated To not only encompass, but exist between the universes in the multiverse. So his entries stating that he only gains the power of the “Multiverse” is of no consequence, Ginnungagap exists inside of it and around it.

 

[Cuckleberry]

Not sure I agree with Niflheim inherently being 6D off being a “deeper layer”.

But I do agree with the diamonds each being qualitatively superior based off this:

“Again, the basis is that all these layers operate under the established logic that Ginnungagap, and Nilfheim follow. Overlapping layers that encompass the ones below them.”

I already have made it clear off site that I don’t think we should assume the Multiverse is the baseline of the macrocosm or that it’s first diamond starts off with 4D, but I am on board for the logic working and would go for 11D at the minimum seeing as there are 11 diamonds.

 

[ZXareo]

Explain

No, I'm simply stating that the people who worked on this CRT confused themselves when trying to compare the diamond layers stated in Luka's Journal with the Echo of Memory describing the Niflheim being a deeper layer than Ginnungagap.


And no, because these diamond layers aren't even having the same properties as Niflheim, another issue in this CRT scaling since the Lumen Sage never took the realm into a proper assessment when he was scanning his environment. This is because he was in a slight panic when Infernal Demons were popping up. So having a person be tensed, even at the bare minimum, might cause him to assess the situation with Niflheim inaccurately due to his unclear mind. Even lacking the time to confirm what Niflheim is.


And yes, they do go from start to end. Here, let me give you a long-a55 history (TED) talk.

Aesir is considered to be the Chaos God of the Human World that helped said world and its inhabitants be able to define the reality they see by solidifying it. Luka's monologue in Bayonetta 2's entry clearly explains this as well:

Aesir

This page details the original Aesir prior to his split of Loki and Loptr as well as Loptr's ascension. To see the version in which Loptr ascended to, see "Aesir (Loptr)". The original Aesir (also known as The Overseer and the God of Chaos) is the supernatural being that is frequently mentioned...

bayonetta.fandom.com

He was also considered to have identified an infinite number of possibilities that are LAYERED to form history. [Read Aesir (Loptr)'s description in the Hierarchy of Laguna files in Bayonetta 2 here: ]

"When the three worlds were divided at the dawn of time, Aesir was chosen to rule the World of Chaos. Possessing the power of the "Overseer", he existed in a dimension different from our own, watching over infinite possibilities that layered to form history from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space."


Please do read the Fragments of Memory entry in Journal's Echoes carefully.

"Strange events sometimes work their way into our everyday lives. Stories abound: flashbacks from places you have no memory of, a kid who suddenly starts speaking a foreign tongue, or a voice in your head that ends up saving your life... The list goes on and on and on.

These are said to happen when people come into contact with the remnants of memory left behind in this world by God. The God of the human realm had special eyes that could see all existence and happenings across the Earth. They could see the fate of whomever they gazed upon--their present, past, and future. Everything. God loved the human world, and his kind heart began to feel sadness for mankind. He decided to commit to memory every detail of their fleeting lives, almost like you'd take a photo.

He ended up doing it so much that eventually even he forgot about them, and these records were left scattered across the Earth. These are known as the remnants of memory. They usually can't be seen or felt, but the truth in these memories could be anywhere: you could be standing within God's memories right now."

Aesir didn't "take a photo" of their existences just so they can "live longer", he wanted to preserve the culture, lives and beauty of Noatun and other humans by memorising the Remembrances of Time by heart. Especially since they're not like him, an immortal god that lives forever. That's the exact point of taking a picture. To preserve the present as history. And in his case, also what could've been. Flashbacks to places one has yet to visit or a child speaking a new language. At least, this is what I speculate when I read the journal's entry. But it does sound logical. Hell, Luka's own pages are scattered across Noatun with no proper order during Bayonetta's adventure. In areas that they shouldn't even be at.
Deep underwater,
in a different realm,
areas he wouldn't have been able to reach yet or at all unlike Bayo, etc.

Just like the Remembrances of Time.

And this is all thanks to his Eyes of The World. Let me remind you, it includes the fates and futures of all existences. Even if he stopped doing it (despite him already be beyond space-time an spent an eternity or more), there's still the fact that the Eyes of The World are still around and present to continue forming space-time by its relativity and chronology.

The Dev team who made the games commented in their Bayonetta 1 stream, they stated that by changing the series of events for Little Cereza's character development caused the Left Eye of Darkness to reawaken while also taking into account of birthing a new time axis, exactly like how Aesir can perceive new possibilities. Where Bayonetta wasn't in shock and awe from the First Armageddon and fought bravely with Jeanne against the forces of Paradiso:

https://imgur.io/gallery/tppn3YF

Speaking of witches, I should also mention that these eyes were given to the Lumen Sage and Umbra Witch clans to oversee the development and peace of mankind as they were doing their duties. Again, the Bayonetta 1 and 2 lore do follow this through.

Eyes of the World

The Eyes of the World (called individually the Left Eye of Darkness and the Right Eye of Light) were a set of ancient powers and the "treasures" of the Lumen Sages and the Umbra Witches. The sages were given the Right Eye while the Umbra Witches received the Left Eye.[1] The Eyes of the World...

bayonetta.fandom.com

...so yeah, he did have an auto-clicker lol.

Finally, even if I misused the name for the layers as Remembrances of Time, they still utilise the same mechanics as the RoTs. As they're all still the visions of an all-seeing, all-knowing God Aesir. Pieces of a world that formulates each timeline from start to end. As you've managed to understand and point out. And as this is exactly what his motif is in his trademark. Lumen Sages' crest is the Sun because their motif is Light Arts, Umbra Witches' is the Moon because their motif is Dark Arts, Aesir's are diamonds because they literally have a four-sided shaped frame designed as diamonds since his motif is Space-Time relativity manipulation of many worlds. Not dimensional hierarchy.

I'll repeat this as a conclusion, Lorentz Transformation. And the Horse in Motion. 'Nuff said.

Besides, the way the Bayonetta lore is using the word "layer" is already following the same issues as addressing a scan or statement of a piece of media talking about how Entity A caused an anomaly to a particular thing that had been named as "dimension".

Is this dimension that had been affected a

1. Pocket Dimension?
2. Alternate Timeline?
3. Or an actual Spatial Dimension with qualities that can be accepted as a higher dimension above the lower ones?

Comicgyal, Minaj and their team ignored this FAQ rule of VSBW on dimensions and immediately pasted anything with the word "layer" that looks like it can fit for Tier 1-C and higher Bayoverse without the thorough checks this CRT needed. No offense, guys.

Edit: Correcting my English and mispellings

Explain why there's more Remembrance of Time than there are diamonds that form the space and time. If they're one and the same, they should have an equal amount.

 

[Comicgyal]

No, I'm simply stating that the people who worked on this CRT confused themselves when trying to compare the diamond layers stated in Luka's Journal with the Echo of Memory describing the Niflheim being a deeper layer than Ginnungagap.


And no, because these diamond layers aren't even having the same properties as Niflheim, another issue in this CRT scaling since the Lumen Sage never took the realm into a proper assessment when he was scanning his environment. This is because he was in a slight panic when Infernal Demons were popping up. So having a person be tensed, even at the bare minimum, might cause him to assess the situation with Niflheim inaccurately due to his unclear mind. Even lacking the time to confirm what Niflheim is.

This is again, a terrible argument, and not what the researcher himself states. He says that it’s a deeper layer than Ginnungagap, which he can confirm since he had to use special means to reach it. He says he cannot afford to assess furthe calmly, as in, a relaxed state, because there are demons. Not that he can’t confirm his location.

And yes, they do go from start to end. Here, let me give you a long-a55 history (TED) talk.

Aesir is considered to be the Chaos God of the Human World that helped said world and its inhabitants be able to define the reality they see by solidifying it. Luka's monologue in Bayonetta 2's entry clearly explains this as well:

Aesir

This page details the original Aesir prior to his split of Loki and Loptr as well as Loptr's ascension. To see the version in which Loptr ascended to, see "Aesir (Loptr)". The original Aesir (also known as The Overseer and the God of Chaos) is the supernatural being that is frequently mentioned...

bayonetta.fandom.com

He was also considered to have identified an infinite number of possibilities that are LAYERED to form history. [Read Aesir (Loptr)'s description in the Hierarchy of Laguna files in Bayonetta 2 here: ]

"When the three worlds were divided at the dawn of time, Aesir was chosen to rule the World of Chaos. Possessing the power of the "Overseer", he existed in a dimension different from our own, watching over infinite possibilities that layered to form history from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space."

This is only present in the English, and we prioritize Japanese. The translation does not say infinite possibilities that are layered, but instead multiple possibilities that overlap. So, not the same thing.

Comicgyal, Minaj and their team ignored this FAQ rule of VSBW on dimensions and immediately pasted anything with the word "layer" that looks like it can fit for Tier 1-C and higher Bayoverse without the thorough checks this CRT needed. No offense, guys.

Edit: Correcting my English and mispellings

It’s amazing how some of you can see that two staff read the thread and gave their opinions, but still think what I’ve proposed does not fit standards.

The RoT are blue bubbles that exist as snapshots of events. Anyone can create a RoT as Bayonetta 3 explained, it just needs to be an extremely emotional moment, from someone who is fairly strong.

Regardless, RoT are not layered, and are not the diamonds.

 

[ZXareo]

Whether you believe the World of Chaos is the multiverse or not, is of no importance to my argument. The point is, that his body is comprised of the worlds he has destroyed. To that, Ginnungagap is included. Insane Ginnungagap is stated To not only encompass, but exist between the universes in the multiverse. So his entries stating that he only gains the power of the “Multiverse” is of no consequence, Ginnungagap exists inside of it and around it.

Hmm. I'll have another look at the descriptions.

 

[Asdtgh]

Explain
Explain why there's more Remembrance of Time than there are diamonds that form the space and time. If they're one and the same, they should have an equal amount.

You want to have a trademark that goes on forever and not look like an actual symbol but a wall of diamonds that has no end?

 

[Comicgyal]

You want to have a trademark that goes on forever and not look like an actual symbol but a wall of diamonds that has no end?

If they go on endlessly, representing them through a finite number of diamonds is actually illogical, and I’m surprised that’s the route your taking. Especially since the number of diamonds is supposed to be extremely important as representation.