Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[Comicgyal]

Hey everyone, this thread will discuss Bayonetta verse tier changes and upgrades, along with Witch Time. Please be respectful and keep personal bias away.

A Sea of Stars

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree, as someone who helped formulate this together.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Vundabar, i agree as well

 

[DaReaperMan]

◇▪︎♡°¤°♡▪︎♧¤⊙◇¡!

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Following. I'll take a look in a few hours or less maybe.

 

[Comicgyal]

◇▪︎♡°¤°♡▪︎♧¤⊙◇¡!

Please don’t add unnecessary comments. ^^

 

[DaReaperMan]

Please don’t add unnecessary comments. ^^

I was saying that I agree though

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'm assuming you're an adult, or at least cognizant enough to know no one is going to go on a goose chase over a simple yes or no.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hey someone has to joke around with all you party poopers!

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Stop adding unnecessary comments, say you agree or not in normal language, or just leave.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

And I thought Efi was crazy

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Agree with the Witch Time revisions and I partially disagree with the removal of "possibly." I'm still looking at 2-A and the single eye holder scaling.

Yeah, the whole taking Cereza back to the past most definitely effected the eyes between timelines, but its a jump in logic to assume that "the eyes being capable of effecting timelines = Jubileus was definitely was going to merge the timelines"

Plus, when 2-C was first added to the profiles, the whole timeline affecting thing was known information. I'd be willing to settle for a change to "Likely," but I'm against making them straight up 2-C.

 

[Comicgyal]

Agree with the Witch Time revisions and I partially disagree with the removal of "possibly." I'm still looking at 2-A and the single eye holder scaling.

Yeah, the whole taking Cereza back to the past most definitely effected the eyes between timelines, but its a jump in logic to assume that "the eyes being capable of effecting timelines = Jubileus was definitely was going to merge the timelines"

Plus, when 2-C was first added to the profiles, the whole timeline affecting thing was known information. I'd be willing to settle for a change to "Likely," but I'm against making them straight up 2-C.

I don’t really think it’s a jump in logic, they’re all correlated to one another. The eyes of the world can affect timelines, when someone does something with an eye it affects all other timelines. If jubileus was going to merge the timelines with the eyes of the world, by Kamiyas own logic it would merge the timelines as well.

 

[Strife304]

I agree with Witch Time and the scaling as there isn't much to go against the provided scans.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I don’t really think it’s a jump in logic, they’re all correlated to one another. The eyes of the world can affect timelines, when someone does something with an eye it affects all other timelines. If jubileus was going to merge the timelines with the eyes of the world, by Kamiyas own logic it would merge the timelines as well.

That doesn't work. Just because the eyes are capable of affecting timelines, doesn't mean everything preformed with them automatically adds up to "definitely having effected timelines"

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree

 

[Comicgyal]

What do you mean? If the eyes affect the worlds across timelines, why don’t you believe that her merging the worlds would be the same across others?

Aesir observed and manipulated timelines across all time and space, in the context of the narrative she should be able to affect timelines with the merging. Saying “Well that’s not really the case” despite it being shown to be the case, seems like a bit of nitpicking.

That doesn't work. Just because the eyes are capable of affecting timelines, doesn't mean everything preformed with them automatically adds up to "definitely having effected timelines"

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

That doesn't work. Just because the eyes are capable of affecting timelines, doesn't mean everything preformed with them automatically adds up to "definitely having effected timelines"

I'm not understanding, if they can affect other timelines without her control, why wouldn't they if they were in it?

 

[Strife304]

That doesn't work. Just because the eyes are capable of affecting timelines, doesn't mean everything preformed with them automatically adds up to "definitely having effected timelines"

We're literally shown the eyes effecting the timelines, its expressed through the narrative with little Cereza, as well as, other instances in the game and what she's presented.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I'm not denying the eyes are capable of affecting timelines, I'm saying there's not enough evidence to just assume that by virtue of being capable, everything they do will automatically do so, even if not stated to be doing as such.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You made the claim, you have to prove the positive, we don't have to disprove your negative.

 

[Comicgyal]

But that’s just not true. Kamiya explicitly says that they’re sensitive across timelines, and when using the eye in one timeline it does the same to the other. We’ve already proved that it’s the case with WOG and ingame showings.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Wait nevermind, I feel a bit stupid now. The whole point of tiering is cataloging what a character is capable of, which Jubileus should obviously be capable of here, given the evidence. I was trying to argue whether she would've or not, rather than if she was capable.

Sorry, I haven't been getting enough sleep...

Agree with the removal of possibly.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Happens to the best of us.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its all good man, happens to everyone

 

[Maskofthedragon]

Neat!
Edit: That IS an agreement

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Is that an agreement, or?

 

[Comicgyal]

Everyone has agreed so far, nice.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Don't mean to be a negative nancy, but didn't the same thing happen at the start of the Low 1-C thread? I get the positivity, but we should wait for more input.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yeah of course. Have you looked at the 2-A stuff?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I've skimmed through it, but I wanna refresh my mind on our standards for 2-A a bit first. Do you have a scan for the the power of an overseer quote?

 

[Comicgyal]

This one?

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Yes, thanks.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Idk about you but my take on 2A is the same as last time, it seems more like a form of cosmic awareness where Aesir can see the other timelines rather than being able to interact/control them.

Even the quote you are using and misinterpreting says how specifically he can only control the fate of the world (singular) which in this context is universe, not universes

"The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

Using "across all time" is not even close to get 2-A when it clearly means he controls past, present and future (which you even clarify in the blog "The eyes can look through past, present and future")

The other statement goes against the idea of him creating/interacting/controlling more universes as everything he sees is what became the world, the setting of the games, not that everything became its own world ala pokemon/DBH

"“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

There is literally nothing implying he creates or administrates infinite worlds, if we get technical with those statements he only controls 1 world/universe which is the one we see all the time. I honestly don't see 2A going through or working at all

 

[Comicgyal]

Idk about you but my take on 2A is the same as last time, it seems more like a form of cosmic awareness where Aesir can see the other timelines rather than being able to interact/control them.

Even the quote you are using and misinterpreting says how specifically he can only control the fate of the world (singular) which in this context is universe, not universes

"The power of an “Overseer” is to control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

Using "across all time" is not even close to get 2-A when it clearly means he controls past, present and future (which you even clarify in the blog "The eyes can look through past, present and future")

Their use of world in Bayonetta can also relate to multiple worlds, even if it doesn’t have the s to make it plural. For Lukas quote:

“Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos.”

He here uses world singular, but is referring to the multiple worlds inside of the Bayonetta verse. It doesn’t make sense for him to see the other timelines and not be able to interact with them, because the game says that he oversees these infinite possibilities. The power of an overseer is to:

“Control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

Not world being singular, but you can also deduce that it’s being used in a plural case just like how Luka used it.

The other statement goes against the idea of him creating/interacting/controlling more universes as everything he sees is what became the world, the setting of the games, not that everything became its own world ala pokemon/DBH

"“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

There is literally nothing implying he creates or administrates infinite worlds, if we get technical with those statements he only controls 1 world/universe which is the one we see all the time. I honestly don't see 2A going through or working at all

Same reasoning above, world is used singular, but is often used in its plural case which indicates more than one world.

Though it all ties into each other. Aesirs job is to oversee the infinite possibilities that layer to form history, if you acknowledge these worlds as timelines, then it makes no sense for you to say that he can’t affect them. Since his power set was geared towards affecting these possibilities, while also creating entirely new ones.

“Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world.”

Visions here plural, and not one vision which was their world by itself. At best I can see a possibly being added to it, however it makes the most sense in the context of the narrative, and by his own entry that he can affect these infinite possibilities which are timelines.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

“Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos.”

This already implies it's more than one, as the Trinity of Realities is... obviously, 3 worlds.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Their use of world in Bayonetta can also relate to multiple worlds, even if it doesn’t have the s to make it plural. For Lukas quote:

“Nobody knows where the world came from. A struggle caused the Trinity of Realities to be split into three realms: light, darkness, and chaos.”

He here uses world singular, but is referring to the multiple worlds inside of the Bayonetta verse.

It literally meant how the trinity of realities was a singular world that was split in 3, it doesn't mean they were multiple worlds to begin with.

AFAIK they all share the same time/space continuum, just diferent spaces which it all counts as just one world.

It doesn’t make sense for him to see the other timelines and not be able to interact with them, because the game says that he oversees these infinite possibilities. The power of an overseer is to: “Control the fate of the entire world across all time.”

Not world being singular, but you can also deduce that it’s being used in a plural case just like how Luka used it.

I don't because it doesn't. I already told you, the statement is about how he sees other worlds, other timelines, not control them.

Being aware of their existence/seeing them =/= being able to control them, specially how every single quote is about a singular world.

Same reasoning above, world is used singular, but is often used in its plural case which indicates more than one world.

Your example was about one single universe that was divided in 3, a single world with 3 different spaces. Not about multiple space/times. You can check the profiles as their current reasoning for 2C is for merging the Trinity of Realities AND a parallel universe

Though it all ties into each other. Aesirs job is to oversee the infinite possibilities that layer to form history, if you acknowledge these worlds as timelines, then it makes no sense for you to say that he can’t affect them. Since his power set was geared towards affecting these possibilities, while also creating entirely new ones.

I certainly acknowledge these worlds, the thing is that he only sees them, the statements are all about 1 world and how he only controls the world in which the events of the game happen.

> “Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world.”

Visions here plural, and not one vision which was their world by itself. At best I can see a possibly being added to it, however it makes the most sense in the context of the narrative, and by his own entry that he can affect these infinite possibilities which are timelines.

Those visions are just parts of a whole, if he sees visions of a chair and that chair was brought into existence does that mean he brought a new universe into existence too? It's not meant to show he can create multiple worlds but that everything he saw became the world. His visions are bits of the world that all together became the universe.

Also, there was nothing in the blog implying he can affect these infinite timeles, just that he is aware/can see them which is just cosmic awareness

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

This already implies it's more than one, as the Trinity of Realities is... obviously, 3 worlds.

Yeah, 3 spaces in one single big universe, that doesn't mean they are all space-continuums.

Under that idea I can get DB to 2-C ez because every space (Kaio realm, hell, heaven, the observable universe) is its own space when none have their own space-time

 

[Comicgyal]

I don't because it doesn't. I already told you, the statement is about how he sees other worlds, other timelines, not control them.

Being aware of their existence/seeing them =/= being able to control them, specially how every single quote is about a singular world.

This isn’t true, and you’re really ignoring his whole purpose of an overseer. He’s not just “watching” these worlds, his quote says:

“Possessing the power of an Overseer, he existed in a dimension different than our own. Watching the infinite possibilities that layered to form history from a viewpoint surpassing that of time and space.”

You cannot have one without the other. As an overseer he can oversee events, and affect their outcome. With both eyes he sat in his different dimension as an overseer, and oversaw all of the infinite possibilities that were forming. Since he oversees these possibilities, he can affect them. It’s very simple.

> “Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world.”



Those visions are just parts of a whole, if he sees visions of a chair and that chair was brought into existence does that mean he brought a new universe into existence too? It's not meant to show he can create multiple worlds but that everything he saw became the world. His visions are bits of the world that all together became the universe.

Also, there was nothing in the blog implying he can affect these infinite timeles, just that he is aware/can see them which is just cosmic awareness

“Where we only see reality and make it match our rules of the world, Aesir saw through reality, and those visions became our world. These observations became Aesir's power. Aesir's eyes were truly the eyes that created the world.”

Of course that isn’t the case, but it’s only supporting evidence that what Aesir observes / oversees are the foundations for worlds. Which again goes back into the fact that he is literally the overseer of his dimension, and oversees all of the infinite timelines in Bayonettas lore.

In my blog I say multiple times that he can affect these possibilities, not sure where you got that from.

 

[Comicgyal]

Yeah, 3 spaces in one single big universe, that doesn't mean they are all space-continuums.

Under that idea I can get DB to 2-C ez because every space (Kaio realm, hell, heaven, the observable universe) is its own space when none have their own space-time

Why does that matter by the way? Even if they don’t have separate space times, they are all universes themselves. But there’s also Muspelheim that exists inside of bayonettas universe, and would also be merged with the rest of the realities. So even if you ignore the alternate timeline, there’s still another universe that would be merged.