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1-B Bayonetta Verse Upgrades

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Introduction​



This thread is a mixture of two different things. First, I will be addressing Bayonettas accepted dimensionality, and scale their hax to it. Then I’ll propose a baseline upgrade to 6-D, and then a higher interpretation (hence the title.)

Disclaimer​



Please keep all discussions centered on one thing at a time. Let’s focus on agreements / disagreements of what I’m proposing down the ladder, as to not clutter the thread with multiple different arguments.

5-D Hax


This portion is quite simple. Bayonetta as a verse was accepted as 5-D due to Singularity's interference, and destruction of Ginnungagap. This would easily make his EE 5-D, but it does not end there. As described here:

Eliminate all impure information.
Singularity's finished form in which it has completely integrated chaos energy. It has become an existence that could be viewed as the World of Chaos itself - the universe as it is recognized by mankind, that directs all logic in this world. Before that (Singularity), opposing him doesn't make sense.

It manifests similarly to a kaleidoscope and has the authority to behave as it pleases within this space.
Moreover, Singularity recalls the Arch Eves of all the worlds it's comprised of, and can create and arbitrarily puppet astral projections who possess identical strength to the Arch Eve.

If there is anything in this world that's able to surpass its existence, perhaps it's the one and only cosmic will that can even overturn definite events.

Once Singularity reached his definite form, he became the World of Chaos itself, which is comprised of multiple higher dimensional spaces such as Ginnungagap. Therefore, all of his abilities, which are explicitly stated to control all Phenomenon in the World, scale to his AP.

MIYATA: The ruins of New York City are the first and the last stage of the game. To give players a feeling of hopelessness, we used some classic methods: endless rain, and the Statue of Liberty getting destroyed.

To really convey the omniscience and omnipotence of Singularity, we created a kaleidoscopic stage that changes at breakneck speeds. It's actually a tiled terrain, programmed to move in response to Singularity's actions and damage rections.

SUDA: All that expresses the overwhelming power of Singularity, which controls every phenomenon in the world; even in parallel dimensions. The fractals in the kaleidoscopic stage are motifs to give an esoteric, yet futuristic view of Singularity's world.
Singularity will be given HDE on a 5-D level, and any character whose abilities can affect him scale as well. Such as Bayonetta, who we see use Witch Time on Singularity. If only for a moment. She is also the Cosmic Will described above, as capable of surpassing his own 5-S existence and overturning his definite events. Due to this, I propose HDE for Bayonetta. Characters like Jeanne that are said to be her magical equal, should have their hax scaled to 5-D as well. Same for the god tiers who can affect the World of Chaos, and their respective realms Inferno and Paradiso-- that are regarded as superior to the WoC weakened state. Making Inferno and Paradiso 5-D structures as their whole, as they were too powerful to directly interfere with during the story. Singularity's attempts at sealing them away was somewhat insufficient, Angels and Demons alike are still able to break into the WoC.

The self-titled "Singularity" comes from a parallel world dubbed the "Alphaverse", and is the lord of the swarm of artificial lifeforms, the Homunculi. It has caused the erasure of various realms across the Trinity of Realities to unify the realm of chaos — which has been weakened by its splitting into countless fractions — into a single reality.

6-D and Layers


Venturing past 5-D, 6D works off the framework of the realm Ginnungagap, and the cosmology information presented in Bayonetta 2. Let's begin.

Multiple times throughout Bayonettas story, the World of Chaos is described as a Multi-layered structure, composed of an untold number of layers. In Bayonetta 2 we're given a diagram of these layers, a set of diamonds, stated to represent the Origin of each era (time), and the Universe (space).



The most important part is how these diamonds represent their Universe, and that they're described to be overlapping. Before we had no knowledge of how those layers functioned, or if they were even qualitative. But, Bayonetta 3 has given us not only one, but two examples of this. The first example is given to us by Ginnungagap. A space between worlds, that encompasses and trivializes the Multiverse by virtue of its nature. Going as far to say, that the Worlds in Bayonetta crystalize into grains of sand, which are the platforms you walk in. This is obviously enough an example of Qualitative superiority, but the excerpt does not refer to Ginnun as a layer. Thankfully, we have Nilfheim.

Ha. I can't believe accidently touched a metastasis/conversion portal I've never seen before...
I can't help but be amazed by my own clumsiness and bad luck..
Looking at it, it seems to be a deeper layer than Ginnungagapu. Hm. I can't afford to confirm it calmly.

There it not only explicitly states that Nilfheim is a layer, but that it is a deeper layer than Ginnungagapu. Not only making a location distinction between these two layers, but also giving them the same quality as layers in their Multiverse, that are acknowledged by their size, or relative position to one another. With Ginnun being an example of a layer of Qualitative superiority when compared to the Multiverse. and Nilfheim sharing that trait of a realm not only outside the Multiverse, but deeper than Ginnungagap itself, the picture starts to paint itself. This is further proven by the Diamonds stating that these layers overlap one another, which is exactly how Ginnungagap's relationship to the Multiverse is portrayed. One larger structure overlapping and encompassing the Multiverse.

With all that in mind, I propose that all layers share the same traits, as they are grouped the same. Making Nilfheim 6-D.

15-D World of Chaos


Having established the framework for the Dimensional structure, we can discuss the other layers of their Multiverse. The Diamond diagram is supposed to represent each layer, and how they overlap with one another, If we count all overlapping diamonds, we come up with 15. Starting from 4-D, which is what their Multiverse is.



Again, the basis is that all these layers operate under the established logic that Ginnungagap, and Nilfheim follow. Overlapping layers that encompass the ones below them. Singularity is said to be capable of controlling all parallel dimensions, which is is in reference to the multiple layers of the Multiverse, and not Universes. At this point in the story all Universes have been destroyed, leaving only the alternate layers that make up their World.

SUDA: All that expresses the overwhelming power of Singularity, which controls every phenomenon in the world; even in parallel dimensions.

Coupled with Singularity becoming the WoC itself, we have a direct character effecting all of these layers. Scaling Singularity outright to 1-B, and following the already established scaling chain.

Agree: Abu, Strife304, ZXareo, Tarang (On 6-D), WeeklyBattles, BayonettaMinaj, DDM (On 6-D), Sir-Ovens (On 6-D, likely far higher), Geo (On 6-D), TheAxiom (Agree on 6-D)
Disagree: Geo (on 15D), LuciferX (on 15D), PrinceofPein, Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Asdtgh, @Planck69, @Lonkitt
Neutral: Tarang (On 15D, leaning towards disagree),
 
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I agree with the proposed upgrades.

15-D looks solid based on the imagery and provided context. But if not, i believe a baseline 6-D should still be given.
 
In terms of Bayonetta herself having HDE I think a better reasoning would be how Angels of Paradiso have a higher dimensional existence the more spiritua they are, and that Bayonetta can fuse with Rodin, the highest ranking Angel rivalled only by Jubileus in her prime, it's easy to say that when fused with Rodin, she has HDE.

...or smth idk
 
...HDE doesn't work like that, power and size don't correlate like that.
The angels are stated to be higher dimensional here.

天使の中で比較的高次元の存在にあたる天使アーベイン
も、そういった人々が折々に抱く潜在的なれを具現化した姿で
現れるとされ、近代では両腕に燃え盛る鉄球を携えた
巨人の姿で表されることが多いという。

The Angel Urbane is a relatively higher dimensional being even among the Angels, said to appear in the form of a figure that embodies the latent desires that such people possess from time to time. In present times, it often takes the form of a giant with burning iron balls in each arm.

Giving every Angel HDE, including Rodin, who is an Angel. I forgot to mention it in the op.
 
The angels are stated to be higher dimensional here.

天使の中で比較的高次元の存在にあたる天使アーベイン
も、そういった人々が折々に抱く潜在的なれを具現化した姿で
現れるとされ、近代では両腕に燃え盛る鉄球を携えた
巨人の姿で表されることが多いという。

The Angel Urbane is a relatively higher dimensional being even among the Angels, said to appear in the form of a figure that embodies the latent desires that such people possess from time to time. In present times, it often takes the form of a giant with burning iron balls in each arm.

Giving every Angel HDE, including Rodin, who is an Angel. I forgot to mention it in the op.

There's even a chain. Second Sphere are relatively higher dimensional, and above than are First Spheres -> Sequi -> Cardinal Virtures -> Dea. So by then, 'relatively' can be dumped for sure.
 
But yeah, we've talked about this extensively so yall know I agree, but judging by the responses here it might be best to fall back on 'at least Low 1-C, possibly 1-B'
 
I don’t mind a possibly, but it’s not too bad of a leap. If you can understand the reasoning of 6-D, then 15-D shouldn’t be utterly disagreeable. Don’t let the big number dissuade you from the proposed logic.
 
What’s the troll here? It goes from 5-D as the base cosmology, to 6-D when only acknowledging one layer. 15 is when we take everything from the verse together.
Dimensions that are parallel to each other do not give you a +1 qualitative. These are just dimensions that have the same quality and are perfectly parallel to each other.
 
Dimensions that are parallel to each other do not give you a +1 qualitative. These are just dimensions that have the same quality and are perfectly parallel to each other.
You’re not reading. I didn’t say in the OP that they were just parallel, i specifically said that they share the same quality, and that they overlap over one another. Which is why they’re all qualitative.
 
You’re not reading. I didn’t say in the OP that they were just parallel, i specifically said that they share the same quality, and that they overlap over one another. Which is why they’re all qualitative.
But this still does not prove that the layers are qualitatively superior to each other.
i specifically said that they share the same quality, and that they overlap over one another.
When you say this, it only supports that there are parallel dimensions overlapping each other and that there is no qualitative transcendence between them.
 
On the first part, regarding a 5-D existence, this doesn’t seem to be what the text is insinuating. It says that his body can be viewed as the World of Chaos, which is a 2-A structure.

It has become an existence that could be viewed as the World of Chaos itself - the universe as it is recognized by mankind, that directs all logic in this world.

I don’t see how this has anything to do with Ginunungagap, much less ever asserted that the World of Chaos is composed of it. Ginunungagap houses the World of Chaos, not the other way around. This would only make his HDE 4-D, and only his erasure 5-D for affecting Ginunungagap. His erasure already seems to be on another level, considering his other phenomenon based powers only seem capable of affecting other dimensions (universe in this context):

All that expresses the overwhelming power of Singularity, which controls every phenomenon in the world; even in parallel dimensions.

Nothing 5-D here, as far as I can tell. Moving onto latter bits.

Same for the god tiers who can affect the World of Chaos, and their respective realms Inferno and Paradiso-- that are regarded as superior to the WoC weakened state. Making Inferno and Paradiso 5-D structures as their whole, as they were too powerful to directly interfere with during the story.
Superior in what way? There isn’t much elaboration, so I don’t see why they’d be considered as much.

There it not only explicitly states that Nilfheim is a layer, but that it is a deeper layer than Ginnungagapu. Not only making a location distinction between these two layers, but also giving them the same quality as layers in their Multiverse, that are acknowledged by their size, or relative position to one another. With Ginnun being an example of a layer of Qualitative superiority when compared to the Multiverse. and Nilfheim sharing that trait of a realm not only outside the Multiverse, but deeper than Ginnungagap itself, the picture starts to paint itself.
How? It mentions it’s deeper, but why does this suggest a qualitative superiority? Deeper doesn’t exactly mean anything without more context, and Ginunungagap was explicit enough to mention its relationship to the rest of the multiverse. Neutral on this overall, but I don’t think it has enough evidence.

Any other premises are contingent on the earlier bits, and I’ve already disagreed with those, so there’s no need to tackle them until this is responded to.
 
On the first part, regarding a 5-D existence, this doesn’t seem to be what the text is insinuating. It says that his body can be viewed as the World of Chaos, which is a 2-A structure.
You’re confusing the Multiverse as the World of Chaos. I make the distinction in the OP multiple times that the Multiverse is one thing, and the World of Chaos refers to everything, not just the Multiverse.

Once Singularity reached his definite form, he became the World of Chaos itself, which is comprised of multiple higher dimensional spaces such as Ginnungagap. Therefore, all of his abilities, which are explicitly stated to control all Phenomenon in the World, scale to his AP.

Rodin himself supports this, with his dialogue on how the universe is structured:

“ Among the Trinity worlds, this “Chaos World” has a Multilayered structure consisting of countless overlapping universes. “

I’ve established above what layers are in reference to, but to reiterate, spaces like Ginnungagap are considered a layer in the World of Chaos despite encompassing it. So he became everything, not just the multiverse.

This is further apparent because Singularity obliterates and absorbs the essence of everything he erases, as stated in his excerpt.

Moreover, Singularity recalls the Arch Eves of all the worlds it's comprised of, . . .

This is shown again, when Singularity erases the alpha verse and takes its energy. It to, becomes a world housed in his body.
So it’s not just a 4-D existence, but a 5-D one.
I don’t see how this has anything to do with Ginunungagap, much less ever asserted that the World of Chaos is composed of it. Ginunungagap houses the World of Chaos, not the other way around. This would only make his HDE 4-D, and only his erasure 5-D for affecting Ginunungagap. His erasure already seems to be on another level, considering his other phenomenon based powers only seem capable of affecting other dimensions (universe in this context):
This is addressed above. Also as I said in the OP, alternate dimensions does not refer to universes. During this statement no other universe except for his own existed, so alternate dimensions is not in reference to universes. While he can affect the other universes, this is because they’re all inside him, and he can call upon their power at will.

Nothing 5-D here, as far as I can tell. Moving onto latter bits.

Explained above.


Superior in what way? There isn’t much elaboration, so I don’t see why they’d be considered as much.

Superior as whole realms— the excerpt states the WoC was weakened due to being split into countless universes. Which logically means Paradiso, that’s already been stated to be larger than the World of Chaos, and Paradiso are superior as whole universes.

It’s already been explained in Nayonetta 2, that each realm exists in a very tight balance. One realm cannot gain more power than the other under normal circumstances. So if while weakened Chaos is still 5-D, and they once existed in equal power, Paradiso and Inferno have to natively share the same dimensionality.

Balance has a great deal of meaning in our world. The three realms our world is divided into--light, darkness, and chaos--have been carefully balanced as the Trinity of Realities, so as not to interfere with one another. Although we say three realms, they originally existed as one. The split caused the balance between the worlds to something be as delicate walking across thin ice. If one realm were to eventually acquire greater power than the others, the balance of the three realms would easily fall into anarchy.

How? It mentions it’s deeper, but why does this suggest a qualitative superiority? Deeper doesn’t exactly mean anything without more context, and Ginunungagap was explicit enough to mention its relationship to the rest of the multiverse. Neutral on this overall, but I don’t think it has enough evidence.

Any other premises are contingent on the earlier bits, and I’ve already disagreed with those, so there’s no need to tackle them until this is responded to.

Ginnungagaps explicit relationship with the multiverse is exactly why it we can derive a qualitative viewpoint. in the diamond scan, and in all scans related to it, the layers that make up the multiverse are all given the same importance, and qualities. There is no difference made between Ginnungagap and Nilfheim as layers, and neither the multiverse itself. Because Ginnun encompasses the layer (the multiverse) and all other layers below it, why wouldn’t Nilfheim as a layer that’s said to be deeper than it not also have a qualitative relationship?

Nilfheim is not housed within Ginnun, which already encompasses the entire Multiverse. So it would not make sense for Nilfheim as a layer to also be 4-D, since it is contained by nothing. Basically Ginnungagap encompasses the multiverse due to its superior size. If Nilfheim is also 4-D it too should be contained, especially since it’s compared to ginnun.
 
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Ginnungagaps explicit relationship with the multiverse is exactly why it we can derive a qualitative viewpoint. in the diamond scan, and in all scans related to it, the layers that make up the multiverse are all given the same importance, and qualities. There is no difference made between Ginnungagap and Nilfheim as layers, and neither the multiverse itself. Because Ginnun encompasses the layer (the multiverse) and all other layers below it, why wouldn’t Nilfheim as a layer that’s said to be deeper than it not also have a qualitative relationship?

Nilfheim is not housed within Ginnun, which already encompasses the entire Multiverse. So it would not make sense for Nilfheim as a layer to also be 4-D, since it is contained by nothing. Basically Ginnungagap encompasses the multiverse due to its superior size. If Nilfheim is also 4-D it too should be contained, especially since it’s compared to ginnun.
The problem is, things don't work with probabilities. You must prove that the depth between these layers is qualitative. There is no "why not" here (MG is best example for this) Like I said, tangible proof is required and it's a burden on the OP.

And from what you've said, Guningagap looks like 5-D at most.

I can't really see anything higher than 5-D.
 
The problem is, things don't work with probabilities. You must prove that the depth between these layers is qualitative. There is no "why not" here (MG is best example for this) Like I said, tangible proof is required and it's a burden on the OP.

And from what you've said, Guningagap looks like 5-D at most.

I can't really see anything higher than 5-D.
It is not simply a “Why not” We have a realm that encompasses a 4-D layer, but not another within the same structure. With Nilfheim being stated to be deeper than Ginnungagap itself. Nilfheim cannot be 4-D, or else it would too would be encompassed. Leaving for it to either be 5-D like Ginnungagap, had it not been stated to be deeper than ginnun.

The layers themselves overlap and encompass each other, and Nilfheims relationship to Ginnungagap proves this.
 
It is not simply a “Why not” We have a realm that encompasses a 4-D layer, but not another within the same structure. With Nilfheim being stated to be deeper than Ginnungagap itself. Nilfheim cannot be 4-D, or else it would too would be encompassed. Leaving for it to either be 5-D like Ginnungagap, had it not been stated to be deeper than ginnun.

The layers themselves overlap and encompass each other, and Nilfheims relationship to Ginnungagap proves this.
A simple statement like "more deeper" does not make it qualitatively superior. Also, the fact that it is deeper and still not covered does not make it qualitatively superior.
 
A simple statement like "more deeper" does not make it qualitatively superior. Also, the fact that it is deeper and still not covered does not make it qualitatively superior.
That again, is only one part of the whole. Again, Ginnungagap is superior to the Multiverse, and they both are layers. Nilfheim is yet another layer, which is not encompassed by ginnun, and is instead deeper than it.

In a structure where layers are layered and overlapping, meaning one over another, with one of those layers being established as qualitative. To have Nilfheim be deeper than ginnun, in the context of bayonettas cosmology makes it superior. As ginnun is superior to the multiverse due to containing it within its whole, hence the overlapping. If nilf is not contained by ginnun, and is instead farther than it, nilf is superior as a layer.

It’s not just “Nilfheim is deeper and therefore is superior” lol. The fact that it’s deeper, and is UNCOVERED by Ginnungagap, despite it encompassing everything is why it’s being discussed as superior to it.

Unless you want to imply these layers have no sense of coordination between one another, in the way that they’re not structured over each other, and simply exist freely, which is how a layer that’s somehow not above 5-D, end up deeper than a 5-D one. That interpretation makes no sense, and is not how it’s described.

All you’ve been saying is that just because it’s said to be deeper, doesn’t mean it’s superior, which isn’t what my argument is founded on.
 
That again, is only one part of the whole. Again, Ginnungagap is superior to the Multiverse, and they both are layers. Nilfheim is yet another layer, which is not encompassed by ginnun, and is instead deeper than it.

In a structure where layers are layered and overlapping, meaning one over another, with one of those layers being established as qualitative. To have Nilfheim be deeper than ginnun, in the context of bayonettas cosmology makes it superior. As ginnun is superior to the multiverse due to containing it within its whole, hence the overlapping. If nilf is not contained by ginnun, and is instead farther than it, nilf is superior as a layer.

It’s not just “Nilfheim is deeper and therefore is superior” lol. The fact that it’s deeper, and is UNCOVERED by Ginnungagap, despite it encompassing everything is why it’s being discussed as superior to it.

Unless you want to imply these layers have no sense of coordination between one another, in the way that they’re not structured over each other, and simply exist freely, which is how a layer that’s somehow not above 5-D, end up deeper than a 5-D one. That interpretation makes no sense, and is not how it’s described.

All you’ve been saying is that just because it’s said to be deeper, doesn’t mean it’s superior, which isn’t what my argument is founded on.
Literally you have only statement Nilfheim outside the Gunningagap and deeper than this. Why should we interpret the meaning of deeper here as qualitative superiority? And why associate them with other layers? With so many question marks and deficiencies, it can never be interpreted as a qualitative superiority.

i specifically said that they share the same quality, and that they overlap over one another.
When you say this, it already trashing the qualitative superiority.
 
Why should we interpret the meaning of deeper here as qualitative superiority? And why associate them with other layers?
Already touched on this.
Ha. I can't believe accidently touched a metastasis/conversion portal I've never seen before...
I can't help but be amazed by my own clumsiness and bad luck..
Looking at it, it seems to be a deeper layer than Ginnungagapu. Hm. I can't afford to confirm it calmly. “

There it not only explicitly states that Nilfheim is a layer, but that it is a deeper layer than Ginnungagapu.

When you say this, it already trashing the qualitative superiority.

Right, so saying that these layers share the same quality as being qualitatively superior to the ones below them trashes it. LOL.
 
Already touched on this.




Right, so saying that these layers share the same quality as being qualitatively superior to the ones below them trashes it. LOL.
I still don't see an any qualitative superiority. You're still trying to pull the deeper layer crap into qualitative superiority. Bro is trying to achieve qualitative superiority with a single statement and has no idea how the wiki works LOL.
 
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