Bayonetta Tier Upgrades and changes

[Comicgyal]

Do I need to remind you that these descriptions are still from the perspective of a human exploring these supernatural and a second-hand look at that? Ask yourself what would you call Muspelheim upon arriving or hearing about it? What makes you so sure that every single use of the word means or implies universe?

Humans exploring them doesn’t matter LOL, you realize that everyone in the story aside from the gods themselves are humans? You can say that Bayonetta and the witches have more knowledge but they really don’t, because the legend of Aesir was written by the same humans that you’re trying to discredit.

This isnt the same like other games where the humans of the verse can’t be trustworthy. They have spiritual existences, know about Aesir and the trinity, even helped kill the witches. Not a good argument. These “humans” created machines like the golems, destroyed the gates to the other dimensions numerous times, could send people to purgatorio, etc.

 

[Dienomite22]

Theyre not though? As of bayonetta 2 the source is Rodin who has extensive knowldge of the verse's cosmology

No, it's not. It's from Luka. Who heard about it from an "unnammed source"

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Antonio worked with the Ithavol group and directly worked with Balder. At the end of Bayo 2, Rodin heavily implies he's Luka's source.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, it's not. It's from Luka. Who heard about it from an "unnammed source"

Said 'unnamed source' is Rodin.

 

[Dienomite22]

You’re making strawmans now, and arguments that do not apply to her. Bayonetta is not a normal ignorant human, and would possess more knowledge of the space than me, you, or anyone on this thread if we hadn’t already known it’s lore.

Bayonetta isn't the one who made the description for the dimension.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Antonio worked with the Ithavol group and directly worked with Balder. At the end of Bayo 2, Rodin heavily implies he's Luka's source.

Not just the ending, stuff like Luka regulrly working with Rodin and even obtaining magical objects like his glasses from Rodin

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Timestamp is 26:52 if the timestamp link doesnt work.

"The Gates of Hell goes down, and so does your anonymous source, my friend"

 

[Comicgyal]

His unnamed source is more than likely Rodin yes. He says in one of the books:

“I've been picking up a thing or two about a place at this bar I've been frequenting.”

That a lot of his information comes from Rodin, a more than credible source.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Bayonetta isn't the one who made the description for the dimension.

Never said she did, you are misinterpreting my argument.

Anyways, I’m not going to in circles, with the evidence insurmountable and proven beyond reasonable doubt:

• every space that is separate from the Human World is referred to as a universe.
• all sources are from reasonable and reliable sources, such as Luka, a recurrent guide for lore who hasn’t been proven distrusting, and Rodin, who has existed before the former
• nothing indicates Muspelheim breaks the chain, via Occam’s Razor.

 

[Dienomite22]

Timestamp is 26:52 if the timestamp link doesnt work.

"The Gates of Hell goes down, and so does your anonymous source, my friend"

Thank you. I haven't got to play Bayonetta 2 yet so I wouldn't have known this.

 

[Strife304]

I’m calm as well, but they’re right, having an argument formed off of: “It doesn’t say the words universe so it isn’t one”

Despite it being called a world which means universe in game, having a separate space time, and being decently sized. It doesn’t make much sense.

I understand that Luka calling the human universe a “World” is passable because it’s obviously a universe, but you cannot deny that same logic for Muspelheim. Because Alfheim is not called a world, despite it being filled with galaxies with stars.

“I have one more interesting aside. Within Paradiso, there are said to be secret rooms known as Alfheim, where angels gather and hold their banquets.”

Muspelheim fits the description, and again

I think this about sums it up, tbh.

 

[Dienomite22]

Never said she did, you are misinterpreting my argument.

Anyways, I’m not going to in circles, with the evidence insurmountable and proven beyond reasonable doubt:

• every space that is separate from the Human World is referred to as a universe.
• all sources are from reasonable and reliable sources, such as Luka, a recurrent guide for lore who hasn’t been proven distrusting, and Rodin, who has existed before the former
• nothing indicates Muspelheim breaks the chain, via Occam’s Razor.

You thought I was talking about Bayonetta....nevermind. I'm not sure what you are on.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Thank you. I haven't got to play Bayonetta 2 yet so I wouldn't have known this.

This is from a cutscene you could’ve watched, which means every argument you’ve made is now debunked.

 

[Comicgyal]

Thank you. I haven't got to play Bayonetta 2 yet so I wouldn't have known this.

You haven’t played Bayonetta 2?? Why are you even on the thread? Not to be rude, but a majority of this is Bayonetta 2 stuff.

 

[Dienomite22]

This is from a cutscene you could’ve watched, which means every argument you’ve made is now debunked.

Huh? That ain't how that works.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You thought I was talking about Bayonetta....nevermind. I'm not sure what you are on.

Bayonetta isn't the one who made the description for the dimension.

?????

Huh? That ain't how that works.

It is. All sources are reliable, you have no evidence against the chain of evidence or Occam’s Razor, you haven’t even played the game (which now alludes to the whole DMC stonewalling Bayonetta revision that Weekly talked about), there is nothing left for you to argue.

 

[Dienomite22]

You haven’t played Bayonetta 2?? Why are you even on the thread?

I'm fairly knowledgeable about the verse besides smaller details or some pieces here and there from Bayo 2.

 

[Comicgyal]

I'm fairly knowledgeable about the verse besides smaller details or some pieces here and there from Bayo 2.

Okay, but you can’t make an objective argument over a game that you have not even seen in it’s entirety. The smaller details and pieces are what make up the verse, stuff that isn’t told to you. You shouldn’t be debating so heavily over information you aren’t 100% sure on. Seeing as how you thought the source of their books were just dumb humans.

 

[Dienomite22]

?????

What I said:

Do I need to remind you that these descriptions are still from the perspective of a human exploring these supernatural and a second-hand account about the dimensino at that? Ask yourself what would you call Muspelheim upon arriving or hearing about it? What makes you so sure that every single use of the word means or implies universe?

Your response:

You’re making strawmans now, and arguments that do not apply to her. Bayonetta is not a normal ignorant human, and would possess more knowledge of the space than me, you, or anyone on this thread if we hadn’t already known it’s lore.

What are you on about Milly?

It is. All sources are reliable, you have no evidence against the chain of evidence or Occam’s Razor, you haven’t even played the game (which now alludes to the whole DMC stonewalling Bayonetta revision that Weekly talked about), there is nothing left for you to argue.

I have literally gone back and forth with Comicgal and Weekly in past threads showing my knowledge of Bayonetta. I even came into the thread agreeing with it initially. The hell is up with you guys always thinking someone wants to stonewall? I've played Bayonetta multiple times over and over and know the game like the back of my hand but my opinion doesn't matter because I didn't play the second game?

 

[Dienomite22]

Okay, but you can’t make an objective argument over a game that you have not even seen in it’s entirety. The smaller details and pieces are what make up the verse, stuff that isn’t told to you. You shouldn’t be debating so heavily over information you aren’t 100% sure on. Seeing as how you thought the source of their books were just dumb humans.

I have never said I thought the source for the books were dumb humans you are misunderstanding my argument was. I was simply unaware Rodin was Luka's source and admitted my mistake.

 

[Dienomite22]

Now back to the discussion. Let's say Muspelheim is a universe, why would Museplheim be included in the merging of the Trinity of Realities?

 

[Comicgyal]

I have never said I thought the source for the books were dumb humans you are misunderstanding my argument was. I was simply unaware Rodin was Luka's source and admitted my mistake.

Okay, I’m just saying you really need to play both games before trying to get into thorough arguments. If you played the game you would have known that, and it wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place. You know stuff about the verse though that’s undeniable, but it’s a bad look.

Anyways no, I would prefer for us to have staff give their decision over it being a universe, and then we can get into the sphere stuff. Not going to argue Muspelheim anymore

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'm gone for a second and now weekly is throwing jabs, amazing

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What are you on about Milly?

This was about your argument when you believed that the sources were ignorant, and my response was even if Luka was (he isn’t), she isn’t.

What I said:

Do I need to remind you that these descriptions are still from the perspective of a human exploring these supernatural and a second-hand account about the dimensino at that? Ask yourself what would you call Muspelheim upon arriving or hearing about it? What makes you so sure that every single use of the word means or implies universe?

Your response:

You’re making strawmans now, and arguments that do not apply to her. Bayonetta is not a normal ignorant human, and would possess more knowledge of the space than me, you, or anyone on this thread if we hadn’t already known it’s lore.

What are you on about Milly?

I have literally gone back and forth with Comicgal and Weekly in past threads showing my knowledge of Bayonetta. I even came into the thread agreeing with it initially. The hell is up with you guys always thinking someone wants to stonewall? I've played Bayonetta multiple times over and over and know the game like the back of my hand but my opinion doesn't matter because I didn't play the second game?

It seems very strange you would mention that you never played the second game, when the evidence provided was a cutscene, there’s nothing to play.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Leaving this to staff now, like I said, this is going in circle.

 

[Dienomite22]

Okay, I’m just saying you really need to play both games before trying to get into thorough arguments. If you played the game you would have known that, and it wouldn’t have been an issue in the first place. You know stuff about the verse though that’s undeniable, but it’s a bad look.

Anyways no, I would prefer for us to have staff give their decision over it being a universe, and then we can get into the sphere stuff. Not going to argue Muspelheim anymore

So why were we discussing Muspelheim again? Wasn't whether or not it was part of the merging the main issue regarding it?

 

[Dienomite22]

This was about your argument when you believed that the sources were ignorant, and my response was even if Luka was (he isn’t), she isn’t.

What does Bayonetta not being ignorant of Muspelheim have to do with Luka?

It seems very strange you would mention that you never played the second game, when the evidence provided was a cutscene, there’s nothing to play.

I don't want to watch every bit of cutscene a game I've never played, especially one I want to play. I still need some surprises. I'm not sure how that's strange

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

For the love of god stop identifying this as some sort of guild war between 2 verses.
No ones scoring any moral high ground by pointing fingers at other verses for """""bad conduct""""" smfh.
Theres only 3 people here including me.
And I didn't even disagree. I am even on board with Low2C Muselpheim and 2C ToR merge since Comicgyal clarified my doubts last night. So what are you going to say now DMC supports Bayo?? Lmao.
Stop taking pot shots at entire verse from a single mans shoulder.
Dienomite's arguements are his own individual ones.
I can see where he comes from has some merit, even if I may not agree with him here.

Its just the unnecessarily strict wiki standards on what is considered universe size or not. This is exactly what made Bleach verse stupidly jump through hoops like dogs to just get their cosmology to low2C few months ago just as a compromise when it deserves solid 2C. Same here is happening with Bayo.

If something is known to be a dimension and has its own space-time and is called a world then its low2C. I am pretty sure Bayo verse differentiates between small pocket realities and other normal realms.

And remind me , doesn't realms in Bayo are like thousands of times bigger than normal?? Even of we assume Muselpheim is baseline 93 Billion LY wide its still low2C by virtue of being separated space-time.

 

[Comicgyal]

For the love of god stop identifying this as some sort of guild war between 2 verses.
No ones scoring any moral high ground by pointing fingers at other verses for """""bad conduct""""" smfh.
Theres only 3 people here including me.
And I didn't even disagree. I am even on board with Low2C Muselpheim and 2C ToR merge since Comicgyal clarified my doubts last night. So what are you going to say now DMC supports Bayo?? Lmao.
Stop taking pot shots at entire verse from a single mans shoulder.
Dienomite's arguements are his own individual ones.
I can see where he comes from has some merit, even if I may not agree with him here.

Its just the unnecessarily strict wiki standards on what is considered universe size or not. This is exactly what made Bleach verse stupidly jump through hoops like dogs to just get their cosmology to low2C few months ago just as a compromise when it deserves solid 2C. Same here is happening with Bayo.

If something is known to be a dimension and has its own space-time and is called a world then its low2C. I am pretty sure Bayo verse differentiates between small pocket realities and other normal realms.

And remind me , doesn't realms in Bayo are like thousands of times bigger than normal?? Even of we assume Muselpheim is baseline 93 Billion LY wide its still low2C by virtue of being separated space-time.

The main contention was it being a universe, it would low 2-C yes. But I was saying I was done talking about Muspelheim, because it isn’t even the main point for the 2-C one eye wielders scaling. So I apologize for dragging this out for so long. We’re waiting now for if staff agree with it being a universe or not, so we can move on to what actually matters.

So why were we discussing Muspelheim again? Wasn't whether or not it was part of the merging the main issue regarding it?

It was to say that the regular merging was 2-C. Regardless when staff give their input we can move on from this point.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry for my explosion above but the way the thread was moving aggravated me.

But in short as long as Muselpheim is not treated as something lesser then single realms in ToR there is no need to assume small size for it.
Default conclusion should be standard size.

Edit:- your comment didn't load for me before posting, but yes I agree on moving forward with other material.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Antvasima I hate to be rude but could you please read the full argument before spam-upvoting Dienomite's posts? Because Dienomite admitted that his argument was wrong

 

[Antvasima]

Dienomite seems to make some good points. There are likely too great uncertainties for statistics upgrades in this case.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Dienomite seems to make some good points. There are likely too great uncertainties for statistics upgrades in this case.

He does not make any good points and admitted outright that his argumnt was made with a lack of knowledge on the topic at hand

Again, read the actual argument before picking a side please

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima I hate to be rude but could you please read the full argument before spam-upvoting Dienomite's posts? Because Dienomite admitted that his argument was wrong

I thought that he only said that he had not played the second game himself.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I thought that he only said that he had not played the second game himself.

This entire thread is about stuff in the second game

 

[Antvasima]

He can still be sufficiently well-read about the subject to make good arguments.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

He can still be sufficiently well-read about the subject to make good arguments.

Okay but the problem is he didnt as he was unaware that the information about Muspelheim was not made by humans but by people with extensive knowledge of the verse's cosmology (ie. Rodin who literally oversaw the shaping of the verse's cosmological structure) along with the assumption that despite every other instance of the word 'World' in both games being used to describe entire universes, the referring of Muspelheim as a World would for some reason not be treated the same

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

Can somebody write a list of the staff members who have commented previously in this thread, so I can send a notification to them and ask what they think?

 

[Comicgyal]

DarkDragon, KingTempest

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Theglassman12 (on break), WeeklyBattles, Sir_Ovens, DarkDragonMedeus, KingTempest