1-B Bayonetta Verse Upgrades

[Asdtgh]

This is again, a terrible argument, and not what the researcher himself states. He says that it’s a deeper layer than Ginnungagap, which he can confirm since he had to use special means to reach it. He says he cannot afford to assess furthe calmly, as in, a relaxed state, because there are demons. Not that he can’t confirm his location.

Or that he is adventuring on foreign areas that he had not seen and walk the grounds before. And you still brought it up as it is. It's not properly assessed, be it further or correctly or both, he made a quick assumption rather than a thorough confirmation. Both English & RAW clearly stated the situation he was in a mysterious realm he just now uncovered. Like how mad scientists make a breakthrough but still had no idea what just happened until further confirmation

This is only present in the English, and we prioritize Japanese. The translation does not say infinite possibilities that are layered, but instead multiple possibilities that overlap. So, not the same thing.

Still is. Overlap, multi-layered, stacking, they're all following a very similar or basically the same definition and concept.

It’s amazing how some of you can see that two staff read the thread and gave their opinions, but still think what I’ve proposed does not fit standards.

Cause I don't follow the word of staff without a sense of questioning and criticism. I prefer reading the material and address what's wrong. Even staff can't be right.

The RoT are blue bubbles that exist as snapshots of events.

You're not referring to the broken pieces of the Umbra Witches' Resting Places, are you? Or the magic effect Loki does, right? And you do know they are also present as plasma TV-sized static screens when Loki was having an amnesiac episode and revived the 500-years-old Tsunami, right? And stated it as it is, the Remembrance of Time after they escaped the Tsunami? Even his own cards are rectangular-shaped and everytime you open up a chapter in Bayonetta 2, Loki flips the card to reveal the chapter you wanted to return to.

Anyone can create a RoT as Bayonetta 3 explained, it just needs to be an extremely emotional moment, from someone who is fairly strong.

Yeah, considering that Baldur did state in his motivational speech that mankind are much stronger than what Aesir belittles them as. Carving their own path because of love and friendship and will and whatever.

Plus, they are following the supernatural phenomenon that a high spiritual energy would make the being be able to perceive reality well enough that even Angels can be seen for who they are or closely resembles. It's clearly written in the Hierarchy of Laguna files and even in Loptr's Prophet description. And to quote Bayonetta 1's intro,

"In a Universe of light and dark, where Perception is Reality..."

And who else but a witch of both Lumen Sage and Umbra Witch blood flowing through her veins being able to take on Singularity without the eyes and the godly summons to cause such a phenomenon that Singularity has trouble understanding. Especially since she trained in the Dark Arts of a clan who held the LEoD as their "treasure".

Regardless, RoT are not layered, and are not the diamonds.

And the diamonds are not dimensional layers.

 

[Asdtgh]

If they go on endlessly, representing them through a finite number of diamonds is actually illogical, and I’m surprised that’s the route your taking. Especially since the number of diamonds is supposed to be extremely important as representation.

Is it now? And you sure the diamonds, if they're being actually treated as dimensional levels, are being represented properly? Why do certain areas of Noatun have different numbers of diamond layers but also a circle inside it like the entry's picture? Like the one seen on the long bridge to Fimbulventr. Or why are there different numbers of diamond layers for the dancing pole that clearly proves my point of Space-tome Relativity manipulation only.

Why do you think the Journal's Echoes entry picture of a wall actually does signify an accurate portrayal of the WoC's dimensionality when it was found in a sunken alleyway? Is it a monument and it accurately depict the world's structure?

If so, I'll be damned. But I'm not

 

[Asdtgh]

And remember, the key design of the Bayonetta Franchise is to look good, not moronic as a wall of diamonds forever going beyond the horizon just to be accurate

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Could you not add new comments and just make one long, concise one? It’s filling up the thread more than necessary.

 

[Asdtgh]

Could you not add new comments and just make one long, concise one? It’s filling up the thread more than necessary.

Sorry

 

[Planck69]

Read the original post so this evaluation is from that perspective and not anything that might've been added to the thread.

Anyway, for now I'm alright with scaling the hax to be Low 1-C in potency.

As for an upgrade to 6-D? I'm honestly not seeing it. As far as I'm aware, the Ginnungagap is that tier via encompassing space-time continuums as infinitesimal parts of itself that are suspended in its higher-dimensional space rather than it outright being a level of existence beyond the multiverse that views it as fictional/nonexistent or is ontological superior.

In that case, then a deeper layer being qualitatively superior based off of just that doesn't really make sense since it being a "layer" above the multiverse isn't the basis of its tier in the first place, let alone how little information we get about what is meant about it being deeper than Ginnungagap in relation to its size or superiority.

For now, I disagree. Welcome to further information though.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I do not need an explicit statement saying he was empowered by ginnun, because while it does say he’s powered by the multiverse, it’s also said he’s powered by the worlds he has absorbed. That includes Ginnungagap, since he destroyed and absorbed its essence, as he does with every world. It would be on you to prove why he wouldn’t have absorbed ginnuns power, despite us seeing him destroying it like he does every other universe. My point is proven.

That’s not how debate works. You, again, made the positive claim that Singularity was empowered by Ginnungagap. That’s on you to prove, because you asserted the stance first. I don’t have to prove a negative. It says he’s powered by the worlds he’s absorbed, which is referring to the multiverse, hence by the mention of “Arch-Eve’s”.

Moreover, Singularity recalls the Arch Eves of all the worlds it's comprised of, . . .

As far as I can tell, there… is no Arch-Eve in Ginunungagap, so why would his power be amplified by it? Once again, the Arch-Eve’s only refer to the tangible multiverse, the scan says it so, therefore this conclusion doesn’t follow. Once more, everything points to his strength referring to being amplified by the multiverse.

Singularity's finished form in which it has completely integrated chaos energy. It has become an existence that could be viewed as the World of Chaos itself - the universe as it is recognized by mankind, that directs all logic in this world.

“energy absorbed from the systematic destruction of parallel worlds in the multiverse”

“become one with the chaotic energy of the Multiverse”

Three separate statements, across the games’s compendium, and the guide, but not one of them even hint at the idea that his power was further amplified by Ginnungagap. The assumption simply doesn’t have any sort of rhetoric to stand on, as it’s explicitly confirmed where he got his power from, and what it was.

Except for the fact that it’s shown. The platforms are the same ones that represent the Worlds memories crystallizing. Ginnungagap has the statement, and Nilfheim shows it in the exact same way. Not much of a difference here.

The platforms aren’t the reason why Ginunungagap is Low 1-C, it’s because the former encompasses multiple parallel worlds. I did make the argument after all, and the statement of importance was this:

I imagined the bottom of the sea as a space encompassing multiple parallel worlds; like the universe around the Earth.

It makes it a non-argument. He’s not assessing whether he’s in Nilfheim or not, he blatantly says that he’s in a deeper layer. He says that he has no time to calmly assess his situation further, due to the encroaching danger. I don’t see what’s dubious about that. That would be like if I landed in the jungle, acknowledged where I was, but said I can’t calmly assess that because there’s a gorilla behind me. I’m still in the jungle, just emotionally distressed.

I never said anything about where he was. This is pretty unfitting analogy, because a jungle (gorilla) and a higher-D structure don’t exactly fit. Every (cognizant) human can identify a jungle, but higher-dimensional spaces are, literally, infinitely more complex than a gorilla. Which is why I mention his skepticism, because if he can’t calmly assess it, I don’t understand why it’s used definitively.

Also, uhm, gorillas… don’t live in the jungle. They’re in rainforests.

The World of Chaos wasn’t always fragmented, it became that way. Also that statement was made before it was a multiverse. However despite Paradiso being bigger at the time, they were still considered balance. So size isn’t a factor at play here, just the realms spiritual energy, aka their dimensions/power.

Also it would be 5-D, it refers to the total structure, not just the multiverse.

The premise of it being 5-D because the World of Chaos =/=Multiverse, but I’ve already disproved it, which makes it only 4-D. Regardless, it being fragmented, and therefore weaker, only serves my point, because that would once again, make the entire Trinity is imbalanced. So the statement doesn’t make sense on either end.

It’s either:

• the World of Chaos is full, but Paradiso is still 1000x bigger, an imbalance
• the World of Chaos is weakened and fragment, but Paradiso is still 1000x bigger, an imbalance

Looking at the following statements:

If one realm were to eventually acquire greater power than the others, the balance of the three realms would easily fall into anarchy.

It has caused the erasure of various realms across the Trinity of Realities to unify the realm of chaos — which has been weakened by its splitting into countless fractions — into a single reality.

And assuming this statement isn’t inconsistent, it follows the second clause, which means the World of Chaos is weakened, yet Paradiso is still bigger. Ultimately, an imbalance.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Note, the people that disagree are:

@Georredannea15, @LuciferX, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @PrinceofPein, @Asdtgh, @Planck69, @Lonkitt, @Theglassman12

 

[Asdtgh]

Note, the people that disagree are:

@Georredannea15, @LuciferX, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @Planck69, not sure where @Asdtgh stands, though.

I am compliant with 5D, as Singularity's shenanigans were affecting Ginnungagap on some level.

6D is already leaning towards disagree and Tier 1-C and/or higher is a definite disagree. Thanks

 

[Comicgyal]

Read the original post so this evaluation is from that perspective and not anything that might've been added to the thread.

Anyway, for now I'm alright with scaling the hax to be Low 1-C in potency.

As for an upgrade to 6-D? I'm honestly not seeing it. As far as I'm aware, the Ginnungagap is that tier via encompassing space-time continuums as infinitesimal parts of itself that are suspended in its higher-dimensional space rather than it outright being a level of existence beyond the multiverse that views it as fictional/nonexistent or is ontological superior.

In that case, then a deeper layer being qualitatively superior based off of just that doesn't really make sense since it being a "layer" above the multiverse isn't the basis of its tier in the first place, let alone how little information we get about what is meant about it being deeper than Ginnungagap in relation to its size or superiority.

For now, I disagree. Welcome to further information though.

Something new I proposed, is that Nilfheim shares the same quality over encompassing, and overlapping the layers beneath it. To show, Ginnungagap is filled with fragments of the worlds memories. In short, it’s the worlds themselves turning into crystalline structures and being contained within Ginnungagap.

With Nilfheim, these same structures are present. Showing that it, along with Ginnungagap, encompasses the worlds beneath it. Since these dimensions are layered, since there’s proof that Nilfheim encompasses the multiverse through these structures, the same logic is applied to Ginnungagap. It (Nilfheim) cannot only encompass the multiverse, and not the structure directly beneath it, because they are a layered hierarchy.

in short, due to Nilfheim containing the multiverse in its own being, the logic of layered encompassing is being applied.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Noted, 6 disagreements.

 

[Planck69]

Hmm. Reading Milly'a comment, I'm switching to neutral on the 5-D hax scaling.

 

[Comicgyal]

Will address those in a moment.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Also, you should update the vote tally.

 

[Georredannea15]

Wow... The arguments that I've said since the first pages and that weren't taken seriously are now being considered. It made me happy even though it was a little late.

 

[Planck69]

Something new I proposed, is that Nilfheim shares the same quality over encompassing, and overlapping the layers beneath it. To show, Ginnungagap is filled with fragments of the worlds memories. In short, it’s the worlds themselves turning into crystalline structures and being contained within Ginnungagap.

With Nilfheim, these same structures are present. Showing that it, along with Ginnungagap, encompasses the worlds beneath it. Since these dimensions are layered, since there’s proof that Nilfheim encompasses the multiverse through these structures, the same logic is applied to Ginnungagap. It (Nilfheim) cannot only encompass the multiverse, and not the structure directly beneath it, because they are a layered hierarchy.

in short, due to Nilfheim containing the multiverse in its own being, the logic of layered encompassing is being applied.

Again, this has the issue of misunderstanding that the current rating isn't due to an actual higher layer/level of reality over the multiverse, so a deeper layer without elaboration as to its nature isn't going to have "the logic of layer encompassing" cause fundamentally that reasoning isn't used.


Also, reading through the hax arguments more, Milly makes sense to me (hah, I said the thing).

 

[Lonkitt]

Read the original post so this evaluation is from that perspective and not anything that might've been added to the thread.

Anyway, for now I'm alright with scaling the hax to be Low 1-C in potency.

As for an upgrade to 6-D? I'm honestly not seeing it. As far as I'm aware, the Ginnungagap is that tier via encompassing space-time continuums as infinitesimal parts of itself that are suspended in its higher-dimensional space rather than it outright being a level of existence beyond the multiverse that views it as fictional/nonexistent or is ontological superior.

I’m in favour of this perspective as well

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Note, the people that disagree are:

@Georredannea15, @LuciferX, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @PrinceofPein, @Asdtgh, @Planck69, @Lonkitt

10-7.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok I’m not really seeing how Singularity’s a Higher dimensional being through the Ginnungegap the world of chaos and the ginnungegap are one and the same here, which last time I checked isn’t the case.

Also HDE for Bayo via affecting Singularity isn’t a thing, she’s still a 3-D being, and neither is HDM a thing anymore, plus with the whole Smurf hax with Bayo affecting singularity, did she affect the form that was one with the timelines or was she only affecting the human form because that’s kind of important.

The niflheim being 6-D I’m not really seeing it, you’re gonna need some statements similar to the Ginnungegap that it treats the latter as infinitesimal or it transcends it in a QS way. Also hard disagree with the higher tiers via the diamonds, the diamonds only talk about each era of the worlds, nothing about it remotely mentions one transcends the other.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Note, the people that disagree are:

@Georredannea15, @LuciferX, @Milly_Rocking_Bandit, @PrinceofPein, @Asdtgh, @Planck69, @Lonkitt, @Theglassman12

10-8.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Also HDE for Bayo via affecting Singularity isn’t a thing, she’s still a 3-D being, and neither is HDM a thing anymore, plus with the whole Smurf hax with Bayo affecting singularity, did she affect the form that was one with the timelines or was she only affecting the human form because that’s kind of important.

The human form as in the bald one that looks like tilda swinton? No, this was against his final form.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Valiant_Abyss the final form as in his boss fight form right? Not the giant face that’s merged with reality itself that talks to Bayo throughout the game? Because that would still just be conventional time hax unless his normal sized forms have some higher dimensional time hax resistance.

 

[Comicgyal]

Just got off work, so everything will be responded to shortly

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

@Valiant_Abyss the final form as in his boss fight form right? Not the giant face that’s merged with reality itself that talks to Bayo throughout the game? Because that would still just be conventional time hax unless his normal sized forms have some higher dimensional time hax resistance.

Correct. His boss fight form. She never combats the giant face that he uses to speak to her.

 

[Theglassman12]

Does he have any higher dimensional time hax resistances in that form? Because if not then that's still just 3-D time hax for witch timing him.

 

[ZXareo]

Does he have any higher dimensional time hax resistances in that form? Because if not then that's still just 3-D time hax for witch timing him.

Bayonetta can Witch Time Jubileus and Rodin, who are both vastly above Urbane who's 'relatively higher dimensional, even compared to other angels', if that's relevant at all. Keeping in mind that Jubileus should be equal in existence to Sheba, who embodies/is Inferno.

And he eventually manages to, although brief, completely ignore its effects during the final fight which leads to him almost killing Bayonetta.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Does he have any higher dimensional time hax resistances in that form? Because if not then that's still just 3-D time hax for witch timing him.

I don't think OP is addressing any sort of time hax specifically. The argument in the OP that addresses Bayo having 5-D dimensional manip revolves around the argument that Singularity has 5D HDE based on Singularity "having an existence that could be viewed as the World of Chaos itself."

Whether you agree with that or not, .

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The argument in the OP that addresses Bayo having 5-D dimensional manip revolves around the argument that Singularity has 5D HDE based on Singularity "having an existence that could be viewed as the World of Chaos itself."

The idea that the World of Chaos is 5-D is flawed through. It’s just the multiverse, which is infinite.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

The idea that the World of Chaos is 5-D is flawed through. It’s just the multiverse, which is infinite.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree I'm just correcting what Glass believes the argument to be about.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Can someone pull up the Ginn statement from the previous Low 1-C CRT to see the specific wording in which it describes its relationship to the world of chaos?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Can someone pull up the Ginn statement from the previous Low 1-C CRT to see the specific wording in which it describes its relationship to the world of chaos?

This.

 

[Comicgyal]

Actually before I reply to this,

&

Ok I’m not really seeing how Singularity’s a Higher dimensional being through the Ginnungegap the world of chaos and the ginnungegap are one and the same here, which last time I checked isn’t the case.

Also HDE for Bayo via affecting Singularity isn’t a thing, she’s still a 3-D being, and neither is HDM a thing anymore, plus with the whole Smurf hax with Bayo affecting singularity, did she affect the form that was one with the timelines or was she only affecting the human form because that’s kind of important.

The niflheim being 6-D I’m not really seeing it, you’re gonna need some statements similar to the Ginnungegap that it treats the latter as infinitesimal or it transcends it in a QS way. Also hard disagree with the higher tiers via the diamonds, the diamonds only talk about each era of the worlds, nothing about it remotely mentions one transcends the other.

Again, this has the issue of misunderstanding that the current rating isn't due to an actual higher layer/level of reality over the multiverse, so a deeper layer without elaboration as to its nature isn't going to have "the logic of layer encompassing" cause fundamentally that reasoning isn't used.


Also, reading through the hax arguments more, Milly makes sense to me (hah, I said the thing).

Can we lock this thread, and can I remake the thread in a staff discussion post? Since I’m the main one arguing bayonettas side, it would be difficult for me to address everyone here that may he disagreements. I intend to reply to momo, and then remake the OP, since the arguments and reasoning has evolved, and the OP is no longer entirely accurate.

The post can be open to a few of those who have been currently debating against me, but for my own ease, having it centered towards staff and a few members would be a lot simpler. Since at this point, it’s mainly trying to convince staff. (Currently 2v3)

 

[Theglassman12]

are you going to respond to Milly before or after remaking the thread?

 

[Comicgyal]

Hm, I’m going to center my new thread using his reply as a basis. Addressing the current accepted counter arguments (his arguments), attempting to debunk them, then reconstructing my current proposal to accurately fit the way the thread has evolved.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, then I'll close the thread.