Asta vs Hagoromo Otsutsuki - Anti-Magic GG vs COAT GG

[Epsilon_R]

Sometimes I really feel like a Verse Equalization crt should be made, because the scrutiny we're having right now isn't even necessary as per SBA

 

[Godernet]

Was that really just casually retconned for an otsusuki plotline…

It wasn't

Well just because all life have chakra doesn’t mean chakra is life… I don’t even want to mention the fact that characters in boruto are still capable of running out of chakra… Chakra is just needed to carry on living thanks to boruto. Before boruto stamina was needed to be drained. At the end of the day it’s supernatural energy used to perform actions identical to magic. Is there anything that states chakra is life force?

I'll just say this before I go any further, the words chakra, stamina, soul, and life force are all very often used interchangeably to mean the same thing in Naruto and Boruto.

The series and most readers that follow the series just refer to it all as chakra because unless you're being with semantics, it all means the same thing, the combination of mental and physical energy.

Similar to mana in BC, taking away all the mana can sometimes lead to death if the mage isn’t careful. According to Kakashi in the scan @Godernet sent running out of chakra can lead to death in some cases.

not just in some cases, but in all cases. from the beginning of Naruto to the current Boruto if someone has 0 mental and physical energy they die no exceptions.

I’m guessing boruto retconned the part where stamina also needs to be drained.

It didn't, chakra is what happens when you repurpose stamina, that has been a thing since the original series.

the difference between chakra and stamina just doesn't matter in the context of most of the time in fights so it is just all just localized by the cast and series as chakra.

An example of this is in Kakashi's case:

"With what little chakra I have left, I can't take Pain out. And... if I use that jutsu again, I will drain myself completely... and without a doubt, I shall... Die!!"

Notice how he didn't say "Stamina" here, because stamina can't be used for Ninjutsu as I'm sure you are aware, so he specifically died because he used the last of his physical and mental energy to create chakra to use Kamui one last time.

It's not a possibility, it's a guarantee.

So this isn't some case of Boruto retcon, it's just that the only difference between them is unimportant semantics.

It’s a pain to understand as well cuz characters still run out of chakra in boruto and they don’t die. Or was that retconned as well… are characters in boruto incapable of running out of chakra? I doubt. Chakra is probably just the new stamina in boruto.

you can go through any part of either manga and you'll never find someone with 0 mental and physical energies that lives.

Edit: seems like Godernet is implying that end of Naruto and boruto are incapable of running out of chakra or there’s a misconception somewhere

I have no idea where you got that idea from.

What I'm saying is that chakra has always existed in the Naruto world before the God Tree and before Hagaromo. Planets have chakra, people and animals have chakra, there's an entire species of alien that goes planet to planet looking for beings and planets with large amounts of chakra.

None of this directly says Chakra is life force. I’m letting you know I need scans of that now.

At the end of the day that was just what you interpreted from “no chakra = dying”. When it’s context can be interpreted based on the scan @KingogKings777 sent. I.e. stamina + chakra = 0 means death.

if we're being semantical what needs to completely run out for you to die is your physical and mental energies, which is all that chakra and stamina are.

but at the end of the day either way you argue it, it doesn't matter since whether it's stamina or chakra it's still coming from your life force

Physical and Spiritual energies are supernatural energies. Therefore Physical energy is equivalent to the mana that exist in the body while spiritual energy is equivalent to Ki in BC.

this is another misunderstanding of how chakra works

the spiritual energy in Nard is just the mind.

physical energy is the body.

these two energies are the mind and body and nothing more.

Before Boruto retconned chakra mechanics

it didn't

(effectively making “stamina” as “chakra” and confirming physical and mental energy being supernatural energies of that wasn’t clear already). Kakashi in that scan was dying due to stamina and chakra running out, not just chakra (you can see he is obviously exhausted and hurt from battle). Did you forget using chakra also uses stamina prior to boruto?

I already explained that "Stamina" and "Chakra" are often used interchangeably long before Boruto so this doesn't matter.

to best put this in the most blunt way possible

Shinobi use their Mind(Spiritual Energy) and Body(Physical Energy) which are parts of every cell of the human body with an additional organ-like system in their bodies called the chakra network that connects to every organ in their bodies, to produce Stamina, this is no more supernatural than when we use our mind and body via chemical and kinetic energy, to breathe, eat, sleep, think, etc, however, due to their far greater than average control and vitality, Shinobi can perform superhuman feats of physicality, a Shinobi with sufficient training can then transmutes their Stamina into raw energy that can be manipulated in various ways which is known as chakra.

Both Chakra and Stamina are products of the Mind and Body so by simply existing you are producing the building blocks for both.

Ninjutsu is just the weaponized form of chakra

this is all different from Natural Energy which is exclusively in nature and only accessible via a Sage Transformation or Sage Mode.

and Six Paths Chakra is an amped chakra that is only accessible through Juubi jinchuuriki's and those who already bear its chakra(Which is what Hagaromo uses)

I'll drop another comment with more scans later tonight if needed but imma be busy all day.

 

[Robo432343]

bro even if the verses are equalized hag STOMPS

 

[Xinsignia1]

It wasn't

I'll just say this before I go any further, the words chakra, stamina, soul, and life force are all very often used interchangeably to mean the same thing in Naruto and Boruto.

The series and most readers that follow the series just refer to it all as chakra because unless you're being with semantics, it all means the same thing, the combination of mental and physical energy.

When converting your stamina into chakra, it swirls your physical and spiritual energies. Chakra is a product of your stamina, but it is not your stamina.

not just in some cases, but in all cases. from the beginning of Naruto to the current Boruto if someone has 0 mental and physical energy they die no exceptions.

That's spiritual and physical energy, which are not naturally infused together. So 0 chakra and 0 stamina equals death. That does not mean chakra=life force, especially since stamina can exist without chakra, and 0 stamina in the absence of chakra, means you die.

It didn't, chakra is what happens when you repurpose stamina, that has been a thing since the original series.

the difference between chakra and stamina just doesn't matter in the context of most of the time in fights so it is just all just localized by the cast and series as chakra.

An example of this is in Kakashi's case:

"With what little chakra I have left, I can't take Pain out. And... if I use that jutsu again, I will drain myself completely... and without a doubt, I shall... Die!!"

Notice how he didn't say "Stamina" here, because stamina can't be used for Ninjutsu as I'm sure you are aware, so he specifically died because he used the last of his physical and mental energy to create chakra to use Kamui one last time.

It's not a possibility, it's a guarantee.

So this isn't some case of Boruto retcon, it's just that the only difference between them is unimportant semantics.

It's more than just repurposing. You're actually converting your stamina into chakra by mixing two different energies. He was going to die because running low of stamina in addition to chakra. death=0 chakra and 0 stamina. Magical power is generated by mixing two different energies that are spiritual and physical just like magical power which has already been stated before and you will die if you lack both.

you can go through any part of either manga and you'll never find someone with 0 mental and physical energies that lives.

That has nothing to necessarily do with it fundamentally considering stamina exist independent of chakra, it precludes chakra. So of course they would die.

I have no idea where you got that idea from.

What I'm saying is that chakra has always existed in the Naruto world before the God Tree and before Hagaromo. Planets have chakra, people and animals have chakra, there's an entire species of alien that goes planet to planet looking for beings and planets with large amounts of chakra.

On earth, the ingredients for chakra always existed, not chakra itself since chakra is created from specific process.

if we're being semantical what needs to completely run out for you to die is your physical and mental energies, which is all that chakra and stamina are.

but at the end of the day either way you argue it, it doesn't matter since whether it's stamina or chakra it's still coming from your life force

Stamina is not chakra, it's used to produce chakra.

this is another misunderstanding of how chakra works

the spiritual energy in Nard is just the mind.

physical energy is the body.

these two energies are the mind and body and nothing more.

Which is great, because magical power is created from internal mana (spiritual) and ki (body). So these two separate energies combine to generate magical power a different form of energy, which would be synonymous with chakra another form of energy generated from two different energies.

it didn't

I already explained that "Stamina" and "Chakra" are often used interchangeably long before Boruto so this doesn't matter.

to best put this in the most blunt way possible

Shinobi use their Mind(Spiritual Energy) and Body(Physical Energy) which are parts of every cell of the human body with an additional organ-like system in their bodies called the chakra network that connects to every organ in their bodies, to produce Stamina, this is no more supernatural than when we use our mind and body via chemical and kinetic energy, to breathe, eat, sleep, think, etc, however, due to their far greater than average control and vitality, Shinobi can perform superhuman feats of physicality, a Shinobi with sufficient training can then transmutes their Stamina into raw energy that can be manipulated in various ways which is known as chakra.

Both Chakra and Stamina are products of the Mind and Body so by simply existing you are producing the building blocks for both.

Ninjutsu is just the weaponized form of chakra

this is all different from Natural Energy which is exclusively in nature and only accessible via a Sage Transformation or Sage Mode.

and Six Paths Chakra is an amped chakra that is only accessible through Juubi jinchuuriki's and those who already bear its chakra(Which is what Hagaromo uses)

I'll drop another comment with more scans later tonight if needed but imma be busy all day.

So mana and ki = spiritual and physical energies

magical power = chakra

spells = jutsu

The SBA has always supported this.

 

[KingArthur561]

bro even if the verses are equalized hag STOMPS

how?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Thank you @Xinsignia1.

 

[Epsilon_R]

how?

Love it when people make bold statements they obviously cannot back up, so they are not even trying to back em up.

What a great way to push the debate forward

 

[karo_senpaii]

The irony here is even if VE is allowed asta still can't negate tso dud to yin-yang. Yin is basically life-force which asta cannot negate

 

[Epsilon_R]

The irony here is even if VE is allowed asta still can't negate tso dud to yin-yang. Yin is basically life-force which asta cannot negate

He can still erase all the remaining aspects of it regardless. Nothing proves TSO can even function when one of its fundamental components is erased, let alone all of em but life force.

Regardless, as long as chakra is involved Asta can still use Causality Manip to undo the effects. And that assuming that, again, Asta just stands there asking to be hit

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The irony here is even if VE is allowed asta still can't negate tso dud to yin-yang. Yin is basically life-force which asta cannot negate

Again you need to prove that TSO will exist without Yang. You’ve said many times that ying wouldn’t get negated.

And please I’m begging you do not bring up the “it created a new energy” card again, because causality manipulation is still a thing whether or not I agree with you.

 

[KingogKings777]

@KingogKings777

I wish I knew.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm still yet to hear what stops Hagoromo from just stealing Astas weapons that allow him to interact with him and are the only answer to like half of his hax

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I'm still yet to hear what stops Hagoromo from just stealing Astas weapons that allow him to interact with him and are the only answer to like half of his hax

And why wouldn't it? It's not like it sends some magical wave of chakra or something that can be negated. The 2 things just swap. Hell we see TSO get affected by STN teleportation 4x in the series by 4 different techniques one of which is ameno itself.

TSO negates what it touches so teleportation works since nothing is exactly touching it. Anti Magic negates anything that interacts with it. Yuno can’t even teleport Asta with star magic due to his passive negating aura so what makes you think Hagaromo will?

Edit: even if you make the argument that the stars’s teleportation ability are being negated by being in proximity with Asta. The anti magic force field can be created with demon destroyer so the chakra used to even cause the teleportation will get erased in order to negate the teleportation itself.

 

[DavidTPPM]

TSO negates what it touches so teleportation works since nothing is exactly touching it.

No, because FTG requires physical contact with TSO to work yet Minato can teleport it.

Yuno can’t even teleport Asta with star magic due to his passive negating aura so what makes you think Hagaromo will?

Edit: even if you make the argument that the stars’s teleportation ability are being negated by being in proximity with Asta. The anti magic force field can be created with demon destroyer so the chakra used to even cause the teleportation will get erased in order to negate the teleportation itself.

That doesn't really answer my question. What's getting negated here? There's no chakra interacting with Asta or his weapons to be negated. There's nothing to be negated in general. Space time ninjutsu literally ignores the borders between dimensions, why would the anti magic around Asta be a problem?

Another problem is that ameno is instantaneous. So even if we for some reason assume Asta can negate it even when there's nothing to negate, he would have to negate it completely literally instantly. As far as his profile goes, nothing implies he can instantly completely nullify things so it's useless either way.

So yeah, regardless of if you think Astas AM negates every hax that Hagoromo can one shot him with, Hagoromo just steals away his swords that give him most of those resistances and slams him afterwards.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I honestly don’t think you understand the causality manipulation aspect of this conversation.

If chakra is used for ameno, it will get negated therefore rendering ameno non existent.

Causality manipulation:

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

Chakra is the cause, Teleportation is the effect. If chakra is erased via causality manipulation there is no teleportation.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I honestly don’t think you understand the causality manipulation aspect of this conversation.

You haven't given any examples of how it works so I'm going off of the pages explanation. It "severes the cause and effect relationships around the sword". That simply does not counter instantaneous teleportation lol. Hagoromo doesn't cover it in chakra. There's nothing for it to negate.

 

[Epsilon_R]

You haven't given any examples of how it works so I'm going off of the pages explanation. It "severes the cause and effect relationships around the sword". That simply does not counter instantaneous teleportation lol. Hagoromo doesn't cover it in chakra. There's nothing for it to negate.

His sword literally a causality just by being held. There is no need to be a thing touching him or anything

And again, his inner AM makes him unable to be teleported in the first place

 

[Arnoldstone18]

You haven't given any examples of how it works so I'm going off of the pages explanation. It "severes the cause and effect relationships around the sword". That simply does not counter instantaneous teleportation lol. Hagoromo doesn't cover it in chakra. There's nothing for it to negate.

As you’ve quoted it deleted the cause to delete the effects. Instant teleportation is an effect caused by chakra. Or are you implying that the passive negation isn’t instantaneous? It is. If it was covered with chakra there will be no need for cause and effect since effect can easily be negated.

 

[KingArthur561]

I don't think hagoromo could bfr asta's sword. Asta has better lifting strength so bfr using telekinesis is useless. Noted it asta also has telekinesis, amenotejikara useless

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah he can always recall his sword like Thor with his hammer. Doesn’t even need to anyways.

 

[Kidkinsey]

It's arguable that hags can spam izanagi so how does Asta even K.o him before he's sealed by the sage weapons

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Sage weapons get negated

Izanagi gets noticed then Asta negates it via demon destroyer and then immediately speed blitz with a Zetten slash.

 

[LordGinSama]

The Strange Man bitch slaps both of em with his top hat swag.

 

[Kidkinsey]

What does demon destroyer do? Because anything that happens to hags can be written off as a dream with izanagi

 

[Arnoldstone18]

What does demon destroyer do? Because anything that happens to hags can be written off as a dream with izanagi

Severs cause and effect relationship. Only works on chakra and nature energy due to verse equalization. If chakra caused the izanagi it would make it so that nothing caused the izanagi therefore it would no longer and exist.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Izanagi gets noticed

Im gonna take a wild guess you dont know exactly how Izanagi works right

 

[karo_senpaii]

Again you need to prove that TSO will exist without Yang. You’ve said many times that ying wouldn’t get negated.

And please I’m begging you do not bring up the “it created a new energy” card again, because causality manipulation is still a thing whether or not I agree with you.

Do you realise that all the abilties tso have actually come from yin-yang?

 

[DavidTPPM]

His sword literally a causality just by being held. There is no need to be a thing touching him or anything

Okay but how? Especially when it's literally my even in his hand but in Hagoromos .

As you’ve quoted it deleted the cause to delete the effects. Instant teleportation is an effect caused by chakra. Or are you implying that the passive negation isn’t instantaneous? It is. If it was covered with chakra there will be no need for cause and effect since effect can easily be negated.

But how? Like give me a feat that shows how it works. Because how is Asta negating anything with a sword he's my even holding? To severe the cause-effect relationship you would need to still have the ability after the effect takes place. When Hagoromo takes his sword he loses the ability to use it instantaneously. Also if the negation is instantaneous then give me proof of that.

This entire conversation feels like
Me: "here's 50 reasons something can't be negated"
You: "uhm Asta negates because he just does okay?!?"

I don't think hagoromo could bfr asta's sword. Asta has better lifting strength so bfr using telekinesis is useless. Noted it asta also has telekinesis, amenotejikara useless

But Hagoromos BFR here is instantaneous teleportation not telekinesis...

Sage weapons get negated

How?

Severs cause and effect relationship. Only works on chakra and nature energy due to verse equalization. If chakra caused the izanagi it would make it so that nothing caused the izanagi therefore it would no longer and exist.

Okay so it doesn't work on 6 paths senjutsu, noted. Hagoromo no diffs then .

Izanagi gets noticed then Asta negates it via demon destroyer and then immediately speed blitz with a Zetten slash.

This is such a bruh moment.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Asta's cause-and-effect manipulation works like this

 

[DavidTPPM]

Asta's cause-and-effect manipulation works like this

That just looks like it negated a projectile shot at Asta. No idea how that's meant to counter spacetime teleportation ngl

Edit: are there any specific explanations on how it works or other direct feats that could be used for reference?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

That just looks like it negated a projectile shot at Asta. No idea how that's meant to counter spacetime teleportation ngl

He negated an atmosphere crush which is basically an AOE over Asta's entire body, the cause and effect are negated within that "bubble" so as not to affect Asta, but it may have better range if Asta imbues more antimagic

 

[DavidTPPM]

He negated an atmosphere crush which is basically an AOE over Asta's entire body, the cause and effect are negated within that "bubble" so as not to affect Asta, but it may have better range if Asta imbues more antimagic

So it can negate AOEs. How exactly does that counter spacetime teleportation? Like again TSOs also negate any ninjutsu that interacts with them yet they couldn't negate spacetime teleportation. I don't see any mechanisms that would help against ameno here

 

[LordGinSama]

So it can negate AOEs. How exactly does that counter spacetime teleportation? Like again TSOs also negate any ninjutsu that interacts with them yet they couldn't negate spacetime teleportation. I don't see any mechanisms that would help against ameno here

Not AoE it severs cause and effect. TSO have a cause and effect do Asta can severe it's cause, which would in turn negate the effect. TSO's power null doesn't extend to causality, that's something Hag's doesn't have resistance to or can power null. His sword effects causality so it's not something Hags can negate. Spacetime manipulation =/= causality manipulation.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Not AoE it severs cause and effect.

I know, I'm asking how does Asta do that and how would he sever the cause and effect of something if he doesn't even have the sword

 

[Xinsignia1]

That just looks like it negated a projectile shot at Asta. No idea how that's meant to counter spacetime teleportation ngl

During the first round of Asta vs Lucius, Lucius used instant teleportation to evad Asta's long-range attack, but then Asta severs causality to yeet him (Lucius) back into place likeva yo-yo and tag him

There's also the fact that anti-magic can straight up resist spatial manipulation and spear that was manipulating space wasn't even made of magic , but could channel magical power. And he already has resistance to spatial manipulation on his profile.

 

[DavidTPPM]

During the first round of Asta vs Lucius, Lucius used instant teleportation to evad Asta's long-range attack, but then Asta severs causality to meet him (Lucius) back into place likeva yo-yo and tag him

See how Asta still has the sword? That's the question I'm asking. I'm saying Hagoromo teleports Astas sword out of his hand and puts it away in a separate dimension, I'm not saying Hagoromo will spam teleportation on himself or on Asta.

There's also the fact that anti-magic can straight up resist spatial manipulation and spear that was manipulating space wasn't even made of magic, but could channel magical power.

Good thing ameno is spacetime ninjutsu and not just basic spatial manipulation. All Naruto teleportation jutsus are considered spacetime ninjutsu in general…

And coming back to TSO yet again, TSO have Spatial Manipulation and Creation themselves yet get teleported around by spacetime ninjutsu all the time.

 

[Epsilon_R]

See how Asta still has the sword? That's the question I'm asking. I'm saying Hagoromo teleports Astas sword out of his hand and puts it away in a separate dimension, I'm not saying Hagoromo will spam teleportation on himself or on Asta.

It won't work because Causality Manipulation will revert the teleportation, regardless of the target being Asta or something else.

Good thing ameno is spacetime ninjutsu and not just basic spatial manipulation. All Naruto teleportation jutsus are considered spacetime ninjutsu in general…

It being space and time matters how?
Asta is resistant to both space manip and time manip anyway

And coming back to TSO yet again, TSO have Spatial Manipulation and Creation themselves yet get teleported around by spacetime ninjutsu all the time.

Having Spatial Manipulation and being resistant to it are 2 different things. TSO's having space manip doesn't suddenly make them unable to be teleported, you need a resistance for that.

 

[Xinsignia1]

See how Asta still has the sword? That's the question I'm asking. I'm saying Hagoromo teleports Astas sword out of his hand and puts it away in a separate dimension, I'm not saying Hagoromo will spam teleportation on himself or on Asta.

He's not teleportating swords away from someone constantly applying causality break to himself or anti-magic swords.

Good thing ameno is spacetime ninjutsu and not just basic spatial manipulation. All Naruto teleportation jutsus are considered spacetime ninjutsu in general…

Dude its still spatial manipulation, Hags isn't teleporting someone with anti-magic power flowing through, nor is he even even initiating it considering he can constantly surround himself in causality break preventing it from even happening in the first place.

And Asta already has resistance to time manipulation, Asta even negged it in base form. FYI Lucius is a time magic that manipulates spacetime when he teleports.

And coming back to TSO yet again, TSO have Spatial Manipulation and Creation themselves yet get teleported around by spacetime ninjutsu all the time.

That's nice, Asta still negs them both especially since he's already negged existence erasure and has destroyed things with resistance to existence erasure like devil hearts, and as stated before, he still has causality break.

 

[DavidTPPM]

It won't work because Causality Manipulation will revert the teleportation, regardless of the target being Asta or something else.

How does Asta use his CM sword without his CM sword?

It being space and time matters how?

It's something entirely different? Space ≠ spacetime?

Also even assuming ameno is somehow just spatial manip, How exactly does Astas resistance help him here? It's like how resisting attacks to the soul doesn't give you resistance to soul absorption even tho both are considered soul manipulation. Resisting space bending doesn't give you immunity to teleportation…

Having Spatial Manipulation and being resistant to it are 2 different things. TSO's having space manip doesn't suddenly make them unable to be teleported, you need a resistance for that.

How is there a difference here? Either way, TSO can directly block other TSO so they literally have to have resistance to spatial manipulation regardless, yet can be teleported.

He's not teleportating swords away from someone constantly applying causality break to himself or anti-magic swords.

How does he cut the cause and effect relationships of something that has no cause or effect? Cause and effect only become cause and effect once the effect actually, yk, happens. And the moment that happens, literally instantaneously, Asta loses the sword which allows him to cut that relationship. In other words, Asta literally has no time to cut the cause and effect relationship.

Hags isn't teleporting someone with anti-magic power flowing through

Literally just does not matter + not how that works. I'm yet to hear a single reason for why Asta having AM running through his body protects him from getting teleported.

nor is he even even initiating it considering he can constantly surround himself in causality break preventing it from even happening in the first place.

Live footage of Asta trying to cut the causality of ameno with his CM sword:

That's nice, Asta still negs them both especially since he's already negged existence erasure and has destroyed things with resistance to existence erasure like devil hearts, and as stated before, he still has causality break.

Lol you took what I said completely out of context but sure.
First of all, I mentioned spatial manip in reference to it not helping against ameno, idk what's the point of saying Asta negates them (he doesn't because he can't negate 6 paths senjutsu ).
Second of all, destroying something with EE doesn't automatically give you resistance to EE. Guy destroyed TSO but would have gotten erased if he directly touched them. More context is necessary. Specially him physically interacting with EE without being affected.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

.

Hagoromo simply cannot teleport the swords because teleportation is not existing, metsuma destroys the cause and effect,in this context the cause (teleportation) and effect (disappearance of the sword) do not exist