Asta vs Hagoromo Otsutsuki - Anti-Magic GG vs COAT GG

[Shadowbokunohero]

"Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses."

and I specially raised the point that Mana being = to everything is an issue

because

1. Anti Magic Does and Doesnt work on systems that share very similar properties simultaneously to other verses energy systems, so throwing a blanket to all separate energy systems as one in the same doesnt work.

 

[Epsilon_R]

and I specially raised the point that Mana being = to everything is an issue

because

1. Anti Magic Does and Doesnt work on systems that share very similar properties simultaneously to other verses energy systems, so throwing a blanket to all separate energy systems as one in the same doesnt work.

What??? I don't recall a single instance where Anti-Magic had such limitations, heck, Im not even sure to understand what you're trying to say or even

 

[KingArthur561]

and I specially raised the point that Mana being = to everything is an issue

because

1. Anti Magic Does and Doesnt work on systems that share very similar properties simultaneously to other verses energy systems, so throwing a blanket to all separate energy systems as one in the same doesnt work.

Huh? Go read sba threat

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

What??? I don't recall a single instance where Anti-Magic had such limitations, heck, Im not even sure to understand what you're trying to say or even

If an Energy system shares properties with both things Anti Magic can and cannot Negate how do we approach equalizing especially if the latter has varying versions that do not all comfortably match to make equalizing uniform.

 

[karo_senpaii]

 Different kinds of power null. Many black clover characters have resistance to power null but no one stands against anti magic. Senjutsu more like natural mana in bc universe

Naruto already resist power null far back as sage mode and kcm. Pains rods and the gedo statue bindings yet pre six path he couldn't resist tso and later post tso he resisted.
Senjustu is definitely not like natural mana. So many distinct properties

 

[karo_senpaii]

What??? I don't recall a single instance where Anti-Magic had such limitations, heck, Im not even sure to understand what you're trying to say or even

The issue here is naruto specifically has 2 power sources. Chakra and natural energy. Both have clear distinctive properties. You went and equated mana to both which is wrong. You can equate mana to chakra but not natural energy

 

[Epsilon_R]

If an Energy system shares properties with both things Anti Magic can and cannot Negate how do we approach equalizing especially if the latter has varying versions that do not all comfortably match to make equalizing uniform.

But what are the properties in question that Asta cannot negate?

 

[Epsilon_R]

The issue here is naruto specifically has 2 power sources. Chakra and natural energy. Both have clear distinctive properties. You went and equated mana to both which is wrong. You can equate mana to chakra but not natural energy

Mana and Magic power are 2 different energies in Black Clover. Magic Power is basically chakra while Mana is energy that exists everywhere in nature.

Asta can negate both

You also got stuff like Devil Power and Negative Mana, which comes from a completely different world, that Asta can also nullify but it's irrelevant here

 

[KingArthur561]

The issue here is naruto specifically has 2 power sources. Chakra and natural energy. Both have clear distinctive properties. You went and equated mana to both which is wrong. You can equate mana to chakra but not natural energy

Mana and nature energy in naruto verse have similarities, both exist in nature. Magic power and chakra also have similarities, both are power to exert some abilities. But anti Magic is completely different kind of energies in black clover. If anti magic exist in naruto verse, that name would be anti-chakra

 

[KingArthur561]

Naruto already resist power null far back as sage mode and kcm. Pains rods and the gedo statue bindings yet pre six path he couldn't resist tso and later post tso he resisted.
Senjustu is definitely not like natural mana. So many distinct properties

"Of course, simple resistance to one showing of an ability isn't enough to ignore all uses of that ability, as some applications may be far stronger, while others may work differently, meaning they must be resisted differently."

As I knew, naruto verse don't have kind of energy like anti magic

 

[karo_senpaii]

Mana and Magic power are 2 different energies in Black Clover. Magic Power is basically chakra while Mana is energy that exists everywhere in nature.

Asta can negate both

You also got stuff like Devil Power and Negative Mana, which comes from a completely different world, that Asta can also nullify but it's irrelevant here

Once again this is wrong.
1.When pa described what natural energy is , it is not the energy around. It is the energy existing naturally in the air, trees, e.t.c. Mana is bc is actually not found in trees or air but is just mana surrounding everywhere.
2. You manipulate Mana around you in bc and that's Mana zone. In naruto you actually take the energy into you to utilise it, this grants you sage mode and other abilities I won't mention. That is another fundamental difference in how it works.

3. Unlike Mana in bc natural energy is actually outright toxic and if you take it in without years of mastery over you it immediately kills you.
So no just because both or separate energies not found in the human beings themselves does not make them equal

"Of course, simple resistance to one showing of an ability isn't enough to ignore all uses of that ability, as some applications may be far stronger, while others may work differently, meaning they must be resisted differently."

As I knew, naruto verse don't have kind of energy like anti magic

I am showing you naruto has resistance to layered power null so he resists anti magic.
And naruto more or less does. Six path energy.

Mana and nature energy in naruto verse have similarities, both exist in nature. Magic power and chakra also have similarities, both are power to exert some abilities. But anti Magic is completely different kind of energies in black clover. If anti magic exist in naruto verse, that name would be anti-chakra

Gone over this already. They are ridiculously different especially natural energy and mana.
And anti chakra is just your head canon

 

[KingArthur561]

I am showing you naruto has resistance to layered power null so he resists anti magic.
And naruto more or less does. Six path energy.

sixpath is one of variant chakra not completly differrent energy like anti magic.

 

[Epsilon_R]

Once again this is wrong.
1.When pa described what natural energy is , it is not the energy around. It is the energy existing naturally in the air, trees, e.t.c. Mana is bc is actually not found in trees or air but is just mana surrounding everywhere.

Mana literally exists within nature. You even got Mana dwelling in volcanoes and the very countries themselves.

2. You manipulate Mana around you in bc and that's Mana zone. In naruto you actually take the energy into you to utilise it, this grants you sage mode and other abilities I won't mention. That is another fundamental difference in how it works.

First off, application has nothing to with the nature of an energy.

If 2 characters use ki, life energy, but one uses it to shoot ki blasts while the other boosts their physical abilities with it that doesn't mean both ki are different. the energy is the same, they just use it differently.


Regardless of which, Mana actually can be incorporated within you, both Mana Skin and Spirit Dive are the literal example of that.

3. Unlike Mana in bc natural energy is actually outright toxic and if you take it in without years of mastery over you it immediately kills you.
So no just because both or separate energies not found in the human beings themselves does not make them equal

Verse equalization doesn't require both energies to be 100% similar.

"Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen."

Both energies being "Supernatural" and originate from nature is enough for equalization to occur. The usage of it and their effects do not need to be similar, hence why it's not listed on the SBA page. So Nature energy killing people in Naruto but not BC has no relevance here.

Edit: There's also this:
"Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses"

Does Nature's Mana and Natural energy dwell within the environment ? Yes

Can both energies be taken inside a living creature/person? Yes

Are both energies used to perform techniques, summoning or transformations? Yes

Are both energies different from the main energy system, and used to enhance said energy system? Yes

Should AM be able to negate Natural Energy? Obviously yes

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Are y'all just gonna ignore my question?

 

[LordGinSama]

Are y'all just gonna ignore my question?

Prolly

 

[Joshyyy_64]

Prolly

Well, Asta fra

 

[Nierre]

the energies are similar enough to be equalized imo

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Slow down. First of all zetten is restricted. No low5b keys. So not sure how we are treating it.
And what key of asta is it using. Coz if it his last key against julius he can only compete in hag already using a transformation. So this multiple transformation you are talking about I'm not sure I get you.

For Zetten you have already been answered.

Base is accepted to be rated “At Most 5-C” for damaging a weakened sacred power Lucius.

Because that's how the sealing ability works. Read the profile, or don’t you know the sage tools?

@DavidTPPM has already explained what you meant and I have responded.

Being tied to life force≠ life force. Yin is not tied to life force, it is life force. Unless asta has life force Negation then this point is mute. I didn't even talk about yang

You are changing your words now: you claimed Yin is linked to life force earlier but okay. I’ll take your word for it.

Asta doesn’t have Life force negation.

No genjustu can be cast without chakra so asta is not negating anything.

What? I obviously do not believe this. Chakra is used to activate every jutsu. So causality manipulation works if anything.

I never mentioned regen. I mentioned healing.
And like I said hag can continously use energy required to fight someone stronger than him for months

And Asta simply negates the healing.

To my best of knowledge they are not made of chakra. And hag has layered resistance to power null, asta is not negating anything.

First of all Anti Magic is not only a different power null compared to what is layered (there’s no Anti chakra in Naruto), Anti Magic is also layered powernull.

Hag opening a portal, throwing a pebble and as it falls in swaps asta with it and it is gg.

Almost as if Asta isn’t going to stand there and watch him do it. Lol. Asta precogs and negates the portal + Asta throws out a Zetten to blitz right out the portal before it’s closed and hit Hags if he’s nearby before he can even react.

Hag understood nature energy in his first encounter with it. It's a different energy from the system. And it would just negate the chakra flowing in his chakra pathway and not what makes his life force. He'd quickly understand how to use it and soon power his own chakra

Nature energy is the equivalent of Nature mana. Both energies used to amp their regular powers for nature based transformations or special amps. Anti Magic is an entirely different power that is lethal to mages. It would be nlf to assume that hags will bullshit his way through the fundamental nature of Anti Magic and just decide it’s not gonna kill him.

His base LS is class g. He gets squashed. If he immediately goes devil union then he stands a chance and even then it is more than a 2x value difference

Aside from the fact Base Asta pushed back Lucius to save Yuno (so he shouldn’t even be Class G in his judgement day key), DU Asta massively upscales from double the Class Z value.

Hags is obviously not going to crush Asta with Telekinesis, and like I said Asta can put up a force field at the start to negate anything on himself via causality manipulation.

---

How…? Asta would have to know how genjutsu works and how to infuse each other with energy in order to cancel it out.

The force field Asta will definitely put up after precog stems from demon destroyer sword, which is used for causality negation. So genjutsu just won’t work on him once that’s up.

Uhm senjutsu resists negation and causality manip is pretty useless if Asta can't use it due to mind manip.

Mind isn’t involved in instinctive reactions + Liebe is there to control the sword and use its power on Asta assuming Asta doesn’t precog it and act first.

Anti Magic is layered and I’m sure it will work even if it wasn’t, especially when the resistance to negation is based on ninjutsu trying to negate other ninjutsus and not a whole separate power trying to negate ninjutsu. Cuz despite magic negating magic based power nullification, Anti Magic always just ignores those layers (it’s also a rule on our resistance page that some resistances don’t work for others due to differences in mechanics)

Body flicker isn't a transformation its a speed amp technique. I'm yet to see the scans about precog resistance because Hagoromo has 3 different precogs and claiming he resists them all is kidna wild without scans.
Asta interacting with souls is listed on one of his weapons and nothing else as far as I remember. Hence why I'm asking how does it work and if it can be combined with his regen negation because otherwise it's useless.

I am aware that it’s a travel speed amp.

Precog resistance is based on Asta assimilating the skills of a swordsman who is skilled enough to throw off enhanced senses (including ESP) with his movements.

Zagred was a soul that anyone could cast spells and interact with. Not to mention the part listed in the profile on one of his sword is the causality breaking sword. Asta’s NPI is so potent that it can interact with magic that doesn’t exist.

Forcefully deleting all of your chakra could. Hagoromos chakra is nigh infinite so I don't think that's going to be a problem.

Yeah every BC characters above Dante has that “nigh infinite” status. It’s nothing special tbh.

Hagoromo could fight and defeat Kaguya early in his life. Kaguya has millenia of combat experience. He's also trained his sons in combat and has an insane intelligence stats
So even tho he's a pacifist it's not like he's bad at combat.

A direct non hax brawl is a whole different debate as Hagoromo still has an insane moveset that doesn't use chakra based shenanigans like elemental manipulation that uses real elements rather than chakra made ones, several sealing weapons, power mimicry, teleportation, soul manipulation, summoning for animals that infinitely duplicate or make him invisible and undetectable.

Most likely scenario is that Hagoromo ends it instantly either through BFR, genjutsu, sealing, or some other painless ability.

If we assume that Asta somehow negates everything chakra based even if it's senjutsu that resists power null, Hagoromo just summons a bunch of rinnegan animals, a bunch of weapons that can seal Asta away if he as much as speaks to Hagoromo, spams natural water, earth, sand, wind, etc style techniques, learns everything Asta tries with power mimicry, dodges anything Asta tries either by hiding inside an undetectable invisible chameleon or by teleporting around, and at worst slowly overwhelms Asta.

Hags isn’t bad at combat (copy pasting the intelligence page is irrelevant since 99% of that stuff is his amazing innovation and understanding of ninja stuff) if he’s compared to Indra who can fight ten tails I guess? Or for what? fighting a Kaguya? Idk… experience isn’t really a feat compared to Asta who literally has abilities based off skill and is comparable to one of the best fighters in a country where every fighter uses precog. Then you have Zetten which Asta will hide until it’s time to strike.

Asta still negates real elements as long as it uses chakra as a basis for creation. The elements (or anything really) just don’t have to be made of chakra as long as chakra is used on them causality negation will always work.

If there are stuff that doesn’t use chakra in any way shape or form then I’m sure Asta is fine with precog (which he has always used to counter teleportation as well) + Zetten + skill based movesets and abilities like (damage reduction + messing with senses + instinctive reactions + skill based power mimicry + homing + Accelerated Development that applies to stats and combat skill… and so on). If hags really has something that can not be dealt with in any of these ways then that is a solid win condition. However, Asta could easily just get off his wincon faster than Hags could which is probably just gonna be a fat Zetten (Zetten’s range spans up to thousands of kilometers)

Before anyone says Zetten is restricted for the third time. Zetten is a move that converts life force to power. Power can be split in multiple different ways. Asta just can’t use a one time Zetten cuz that’s Low 5-B, a two time use is high into 5-C+.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

@Epsilon_R ninja’d me with half of these points. Womp.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

and I specially raised the point that Mana being = to everything is an issue

because

1. Anti Magic Does and Doesnt work on systems that share very similar properties simultaneously to other verses energy systems, so throwing a blanket to all separate energy systems as one in the same doesnt work.

By the way we often forget that mana has several subsets. That’s why it seems like this to you.

There’s Nature Mana (eq to Nature energy), Negative Mana (resists all magic including attempts at negating it except Anti Magic of course), and the Mana we all know and love that dwells in everyone (eq to Chakra) you could even say curse power is its own subset considering all curse magic comes from its own source Megicula). Even Maryoku is treated differently in land of the sun even tho they’re so similar is practically the same thing with very subtle differences like the existence of scrolls.

So if it seems like someone is just saying “mana is eq to this and this and this” is cuz theyre taking its subsets into account.

 

[Epsilon_R]

@Epsilon_R ninja’d me with half of these points. Womp.

The louder, the better

Anyway I've seen enough, voting Asta

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah I guess I’m voting Asta too

 

[Godernet]

 

[Godernet]

Mana literally exists within nature. You even got Mana dwelling in volcanoes and the very countries themselves.

First off, application has nothing to with the nature of an energy.

Nature Energy isnt Senjutsu so this doesn't matter too much

Senjutsu is the mixture of Nature Energy, Physical, and Mental Energies that make up someone's life force that is often equated to the soul in nard. aka Chi, a power system very different from Magic, Mana, or Ki.

Verse equalization doesn't require both energies to be 100% similar.

it requires both be similar enough to where it makes logical sense for them to interact a certain way

chakra and senjutsu are closer to chi and we even have it accepted that way.

Six Path Senjutsu, something exclusive to a handful in Nard that doesn't have a way to be replicated in BC is what Hagaromo primarily uses.

Both energies being "Supernatural" and originate from nature is enough for equalization to occur. The usage of it and their effects do not need to be similar, hence why it's not listed on the SBA page. So Nature energy killing people in Naruto but not BC has no relevance here.

this would be the case if Hags only used natural energy in combat, but all senjutsu is comprised of mental and physical energy as well, and Hagromos specific brand is exclusive to and those who he bestows his power to, as well as other jinchuuriki.

Does Nature's Mana and Natural energy dwell within the environment ? Yes

mhm, but senjutsu doesn't(which is what he uses for techniques not nature energy.

Can both energies be taken inside a living creature/person? Yes

yep

Are both energies used to perform techniques, summoning or transformations? Yes

nope, nature energy has to be transmuted into senjutsu with the other two energy types mentioned.

Should AM be able to negate Natural Energy? Obviously yes

nope

 

[Godernet]

You are changing your words now: you claimed Yin is linked to life force earlier but okay. I’ll take your word for it.

to correct this rq,

Yang Release is equated to physical life force, Yin release is mental energy

they're both aspects of chakra that can be used as an independent style.

Hagaromo has cracked out versions of both

Asta doesn’t have Life force negation.

if he doesn't then he can't negate chakra-based ability which is a person's life force or soul transmuted into energy.

What? I obviously do not believe this. Chakra is used to activate every jutsu.

Believe it.

And Asta simply negates the healing.

Ghost Hags has Mid-High Regen, Asta has High-Mid Magical Regen Negation, it probably isn't happening.

First of all Anti Magic is not only a different power null compared to what is layered (there’s no Anti chakra in Naruto), Anti Magic is also layered powernull.

another thing that seperates chakra and Magic but i digress

Almost as if Asta isn’t going to stand there and watch him do it. Lol. Asta precogs and negates the portal

which wouldnt happen since Chakra is far closer to Ki than Magic to be equalized.

+ Asta throws out a Zetten to blitz right out the portal before it’s closed and hit Hags if he’s nearby before he can even react.

with his dojutsu and sensory abilities he should be able to predict and handle an attack thats a blitz lvl above him anyways.

Nature energy is the equivalent of Nature mana.

yes

Both energies used to amp their regular powers for nature based transformations or special amps.

Nature Energy doesnt actually do this, Senjutsu does which is Mental + Physical + Nature energy.

the closest equivalent in BC would be Natural Mana mixed with Ki but even that won't be enough for Six Path Senjutsu which is what Hagaromo uses anyways, with no BC counterpart.

The force field Asta will definitely put up after precog stems from demon destroyer sword, which is used for causality negation. So genjutsu just won’t work on him once that’s up.

something that only works on magical effects, not a genjutsu fueled by Six Paths Senjutsu.

Mind isn’t involved in instinctive reactions + Liebe is there to control the sword and use its power on Asta assuming Asta doesn’t precog it and act first.

Genjutsu can not only mind manip, but paralyze, mind control, and read the thoughts of the target.

Before anyone says Zetten is restricted for the third time. Zetten is a move that converts life force to power.

if this is the case then Hags would have invulnerability to Zetten as Ninjutsu is quite literally Life Force turned into power.

Limited Invulnerability (Juubi Jinchūriki are impervious to all forms of Ninjutsu, with the exception of those that contain natural energy[322][323])

 

[Godernet]

the arguments for Chakra and Senjutsu equating to Mana and Natural Mana in BC feel kind of misinformed.

Chakra is not mana:

Chakra is specifically what happens when the Mental and Physical Energies of a person are transmuted together to create a new energy.

aka its basically Chi/Life Force/Energy from the Soul.

the closest equivalent to Chakra in Black Clover is Ki/Zetten.


Natural Energy is NOT the same as Senjutsu.

while equating Natural Energy to Natural Mana is fine, as they are both energy found in nature.

Senjutsu is what happens when amassed natural energy is fused with the mental and physical energies of a shinobi.

Nature Energy isn't used for combat, it's amassed to create Senjutsu.

the closest thing to Senjutsu in Black Clover would be if hypothetically you combined Ki with Natural Mana to create a new energy.

This also is forgetting to mention that what Hagaromo uses is specifically, Six Paths Senjutsu, which is exclusive to Juubi Jinchuuriki's and those who have received Hag's chakra like Nard and Sauce. There is no equivalent to this in Black Clover.


The fight itself:

If Zetten is indeed just life force turned into energy then Hagaromo would just have invulnerability to it like he does for all ninjutsu attacks based around chakra aka life force.

And as far as I know at this point in the story, Asta's anti-magic doesn't null Ki or effect his own ability to use Ki/Zetten so Anti Magic probably isn't nulling any Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Senjutsu, or Six Paths Senjutsu.

if that is the case then Hagaromo has more than enough wincons to beat Asta:

• Ripping out his soul with the Rinnegan
• Sealing him in SPCT
• Tagging him with a TSO
• Genjutsuing him
• BFR via Amenotejikara

And probably more that I'm missing.

With Asta having no way of actually putting down Hags if he's invulnerable to Zetten because of the AP gap on Hags behalf otherwise.


Voting Hagaromo

 

[DavidTPPM]

The force field Asta will definitely put up after precog stems from demon destroyer sword, which is used for causality negation. So genjutsu just won’t work on him once that’s up.

You literally didn't explain how that counters genjutsu. The moment it lands Hagoromo just makes Asta put down all his defenses and give up, he won't have a chance to causality neg ir whatever. Also how is Asta predicting genjutsu, whipping out a sword, and putting up a force field faster than Hagoromo uses a genjutsu when that's thought based…?

Mind isn’t involved in instinctive reactions + Liebe is there to control the sword and use its power on Asta assuming Asta doesn’t precog it and act first.

But genjutsu doesn't just affect your mind? It affects your perception and body as well. The moment genjutsu lands Asta gets paralyzed, mind controlled, and won't even know it because his perception gets toyed with. Like Obito straight up turned a perfect Jinchuriki into a human puppet with his genjutsu.

Anti Magic is layered and I’m sure it will work even if it wasn’t, especially when the resistance to negation is based on ninjutsu trying to negate other ninjutsus and not a whole separate power trying to negate ninjutsu. Cuz despite magic negating magic based power nullification, Anti Magic always just ignores those layers (it’s also a rule on our resistance page that some resistances don’t work for others due to differences in mechanics)

Imma just ask for scans knowing I won't see any ig.

I am aware that it’s a travel speed amp.

Precog resistance is based on Asta assimilating the skills of a swordsman who is skilled enough to throw off enhanced senses (including ESP) with his movements.

If you know it's a speed amp then you should also know SBA won't nullify it…?
That's great, that sounds like basic analytical prediction resistance. Hagoromos precogs are time based, danger based, and muscle reading. Unless Asta can somehow completely hide the danger of his attacks, avoid future sight, AND hide the movements of his muscles and energy flow, he's getting precoged.

Zagred was a soul that anyone could cast spells and interact with. Not to mention the part listed in the profile on one of his sword is the causality breaking sword. Asta’s NPI is so potent that it can interact with magic that doesn’t exist.

That was my point. His NPI is limited to a single sword in his profile. In other words Hagoromo simply steals it with ameno and puts it away into a different dimension. Boom, Asta can't even touch Hagoromo anymore .

Actually all of his shenanigans are tied to his swords. What stops Hagoromo from just stealing them with Ameno and storing or sealing them away?

Yeah every BC characters above Dante has that “nigh infinite” status. It’s nothing special tbh.

Hags isn’t bad at combat (copy pasting the intelligence page is irrelevant since 99% of that stuff is his amazing innovation and understanding of ninja stuff) if he’s compared to Indra who can fight ten tails I guess? Or for what? fighting a Kaguya? Idk… experience isn’t really a feat compared to Asta who literally has abilities based off skill and is comparable to one of the best fighters in a country where every fighter uses precog. Then you have Zetten which Asta will hide until it’s time to strike.

Asta still negates real elements as long as it uses chakra as a basis for creation. The elements (or anything really) just don’t have to be made of chakra as long as chakra is used on them causality negation will always work.

I'll reply to all of these at once because I'm kidna tired of replying to things separately.
You completely missed the point of the nigh infinite chakra pool. Copy pasting the intelligence section is not irrelevant because it shows off how ridiculously smart he is. Which is a pretty important part of the fight.

Idk how is fighting Kaguya not a feat tbh. Hagoromo fought her before getting any of his ninja tools, Juubi Jinchuriki hax, spirit ghost hax, or most of his experience. And Kaguya is an Otsutsuki who have been stated to have millenia of combat experience which is the reason why karma is so strong to begin with. Zetten is not hitting because ameno dodge gg. And that's assuming Asta will even find Hagoromo inside the invisible chameleon.

Elements I mentioned were specifically mentioned because they aren't made of chakra so AM can't negate it. Standard elemental ninjutsu don't actually create the elements and instead use the natural elements themselves. Like Hagoromo doesn't create rocks, he uses rocks on the ground. And causality manip is tied to a sword which gets snagged by ameno.

If there are stuff that doesn’t use chakra in any way shape or form then I’m sure Asta is fine with precog (which he has always used to counter teleportation as well) + Zetten + skill based movesets and abilities like (damage reduction + messing with senses + instinctive reactions + skill based power mimicry + homing + Accelerated Development that applies to stats and combat skill… and so on). If hags really has something that can not be dealt with in any of these ways then that is a solid win condition. However, Asta could easily just get off his wincon faster than Hags could which is probably just gonna be a fat Zetten (Zetten’s range spans up to thousands of kilometers)

See that's the issue because you have to actually make an argument for how those actually help Asta win.

From where I stand Hagoromo just snags Astas demon destroyer sword with ameno, and then has like 50 different win cons ranging from just overwhelming him with animal summons PM and elemental ninjutsu, genjutsu GGing him, sealing him with CT or SPCT, BFR, etc etc. And that's not even mentioning how Asta won't be able to even interact with Hagoromo after he loses his weapons.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm obviously voting Hagoromo. Regardless of how you interpret anti magic - 6 paths senjutsu chakra interactions, Hagoromo can casually just steal all of Astas weapons and seal them away. Asta has no answer to genjutsu, soul manip, no way to interact with Hagoromo after the weapons are taken away from him, and can't even detect Hagoromo inside the chameleon

Astas only potential win condition (beating up Hagoromo) also relies in him skill stomping Hagoromo which is not only unlikely given Hagoromos versatility and intelligence/skill, but outright impossible given than Hagoromo can just chill inside the chameleon to avoid everything he does.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Bro got a sick ass entrance.

---

Definitely responding later. It’s Saturday night.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

sorry for the delayed response, was busy playing Persona 3 lmfao.

Yeah Gordenet basically echo's my sentiments

 

[KingogKings777]

Can we stop bringing up Hags vs Kaguya since he fought the juubi form and not her real form?

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

First of all Anti Magic is not only a different power null compared to what is layered (there’s no Anti chakra in Naruto), Anti Magic is also layered powernull.

Reminder to everyone on both sides, until evaluated in this thread for all intents and purposes any supposed Layers are effectively non existent

 

[KingogKings777]

Natural Energy is NOT the same as Senjutsu.

while equating Natural Energy to Natural Mana is fine, as they are both energy found in nature.

Senjutsu is what happens when amassed natural energy is fused with the mental and physical energies of a shinobi.

Nature Energy isn't used for combat, it's amassed to create Senjutsu.

the closest thing to Senjutsu in Black Clover would be if hypothetically you combined Ki with Natural Mana to create a new energy.

This also is forgetting to mention that what Hagaromo uses is specifically, Six Paths Senjutsu, which is exclusive to Juubi Jinchuuriki's and those who have received Hag's chakra like Nard and Sauce. There is no equivalent to this in Black Clover.

So for the nature energy it just seems like nature energy which is senjutsu which is mana?

Trying to follow this atm is a pain.

 

[Godernet]

So for the nature energy it just seems like nature energy which is senjutsu which is mana?

Trying to follow this atm is a pain.

nature energy is a foundational part of Senjutsu but Nature Energy isn't Senjutsu.

Senjutsu is mental energy + physical energy + nature energy or chakra(life force) + nature energy.

the closest equivalent in Black Clover is Mana + Ki(which can't be negged by Anti-Magic.)

 

[Arnoldstone18]

nature energy is a foundational part of Senjutsu but Nature Energy doesn't equal Senjutsu.

Smfh this is just how “natural mana” is fundamental for “True Magic/Yojutsu”.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Smfh this is just how “natural mana” is fundamental for “True Magic/Yojutsu”.

yeah except that true magic is just using nature's mana with your own. Nature energy isnt just chakra found in the environment.

the equivalent here would be if KI from BC was found in the natural world.

 

[Godernet]

Smfh this is just how natural mana is for “True Magic/Yojutsu”

if you read my previous post, I did say natural mana can be equated to natural energy.

but the inclusion of life force via chakra is what separates Senjutsu from Mana.

Senjutsu incorporates life force which Anti Magic can't negate as we know it doesnt neg Ki.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

If true mana and vanilla mana were likened to Coke and Diet Coke then nature energy and chakra would be Coke and raspberry flavoring.

 

[KingogKings777]

Also whats stopping Asta from zettening or whatever he did to Lily to Hags?

 

[Godernet]

Also whats stopping Asta from zettening or whatever he did to Lily to Hags?

Zetten is life force-infused attacks

ninjutsu is life force-infused attacks

Juubi Jinchuuriki's have invulnerability to all non-Senjutsu enhanced ninjutsu.