Asta vs Hagoromo Otsutsuki - Anti-Magic GG vs COAT GG

[Arnoldstone18]

It's life force...because...they..depend..on..it.. to live...

Yeah for spiritual energy not physical energy.

Do you have proof physical energy is required to live (especially when spiritual energy is literally what humans depend on to literally be alive… again it’s literally described as human consciousness/spirit)

This is not even about chakra anymore. It’s about what it’s made of. Chakra is a supernatural energy made up of life force and another supernatural energy known as physical energy

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Arnold. I'm going to give you a chance to reword that. Because there's absolutely no way you asked me if physical energy is required to live.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

and another supernatural energy known as physical energy

Physical energy isn't supernatural energy. It's the energy that's created by your cells, it's a real thing Arnold.. like in real life.....

 

[Arnoldstone18]

My wording is clear unless you’re trying to strawman.

Physical energy is a supernatural energy.

Edit: I just saw this post above me. Do you really still think this is ATP? You’re still associating yang release with the human body’s catabolic processes?

 

[Xinsignia1]

congrats and our power null standards would just neg that since Anti Magic cant affect chi power systems

Not really, the standards wouldn't neg it considering Asta's anti-magic doesn't just negate magic, and he already has limited death manipulation. Anti-magic has already demonstrated it can nullify non-magical energies. But that's not even needed considering the SBA still applies, and the anti-magic section on the SBA supports this.

Chakra incorporates life force, but it is not life force considering its only associated with physical energy, not spiritual energy. And as i've stated before, you can live without chakra if you still have your stamina.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Edit: I just saw this post above me. Do you really still think this is ATP?

It's objectively atp, it's straight up told to us that it comes from the energy produced by the cells. And yes physical energy is needed to live like every organic being.

 

[KingogKings777]

nah, must've been some other Godernet i guess, common name.

Damn.

i didn't claim there were other people than asta, just that because we know asta exists, we know its possible, you don't need 15 examples to make a point

as some people can have no mana yet have a life force, like Asta.

Huh? Who are some people other then asta? Kinda weird Lucius doesn't consider others to be such but only Asta. Since he's the only character in the series to be like that ever.

your previous posts had points I already went over or just didn't matter.

By go over you mean ignore and connect the wrong dots? Yeah you did.

brb imma go get the belt

You cant hurt me anymore old man.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump.

 

[TauanVictor]

Hagoromo FRA

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It's objectively atp, it's straight up told to us that it comes from the energy produced by the cells. And yes physical energy is needed to live like every organic being.

…


So you’re telling me than consciousness and the human catabolic process is what’s used to create some blue supernatural energy used to manipulate the elements and perform supernatural feats and phenomenons?

If so, mana is still a fundamental energy that can literally be obtained from Life energy:

• Asta can still sense life force in magic. It doesn’t have to be exactly the same fundamental frame work.
• humans die if literally every last drop of mana is taken from them
• plants die if natural mana is negated in them (Asta’s limited death manipulation).
• Similar to Chakra, running out of chakra/mana doesn’t mean literally all your chakra/mana is gone. It simply means the mana needed to create magic power has run out unless mages want to drain their life energy for magic.
• Turning life energy to mana is literally the same thing as turning life energy into chakra.

Etc.


This debate is honestly ridiculous because we are literally just arguing semantics at this point. It literally defeats the purpose of verse equalization.

---

At the end of the day regardless of what we think, based on our SBA, If magic and chakra are power systems that literally everyone uses and are energies that can literally do the same things. Then it must be equalized for a proper fight to happen especially when both energies have grounds on life energy even though they don’t have to be exactly the same to be equalized.


If chakra and magic can not be equalized despite them being literally the same in almost all aspects and somewhat similar in fundamental aspects, Anti magic would not even work on Magic from other verses because BC Magic’s fundamentals and magic from other verses are different due to most Magic verses being vague or not even using mana at all.

With this high level of scrutiny displayed in this thread, verse equalization won’t happen in most cases if not all cases.

---

Semantics aside, the three types of mana can also be equalized to other energies in Naruto due to similar (if not outright equal) functions and usage:

• Innate mana ≈ chakra (for Magic / Ninjutsu)
• nature mana ≈ nature energy (for Senjutsu/True Magic)
• negative mana ≈ six paths chakra (energies from different race and world that perform the same things as all of the above and is superior to all of the above in every way.)

If you have any question that a google search won’t answer, let me know. The reason why I said google search is cuz the similarities are so vast that you can easily find them online by searching for one aspect and attaching the word BC or Naruto on it. The only questions you won’t get an answer to are most likely hyper specific which don’t matter to verse equalization otherwise ask away.

So can we get back to debating the actual fight? It’s been 8 pages now with 6 of them on this topic.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

…

So you’re telling me than consciousness and the human catabolic process is what’s used to create some blue supernatural energy used to manipulate the elements and perform supernatural feats and phenomenons?

yes, which is why chakra falls under our Chi section.

This debate is honestly ridiculous because we are literally just arguing semantics at this point. It literally defeats the purpose of verse equalization.

---

At the end of the day regardless of what we think, based on our SBA, If magic and chakra are power systems that literally everyone uses and are energies that can literally do the same things. Then it must be equalized for a proper fight to happen especially when both energies have grounds on life energy even though they don’t have to be exactly the same to be equalized.

Its not an argument from semantics, the existence of our SBA for Anti Magic which excludes Chi, which chakra falls into means we have two site rules that cant co exist at the same time within the framework of this thread. because based on just taking everything at face value using our site rules, then Mana=chakra but its a mana/magic that Asta cant negate with his power because of our powernull standard, which is obviously not what most of Asta's side was arguing for, given the amount of "negate chakra arguments"

If chakra and magic can not be equalized despite them being literally the same in almost all aspects and somewhat similar in fundamental aspects, Anti magic would not even work on Magic from other verses because BC Magic’s fundamentals and magic from other verses are different due to most Magic verses being vague or not even using mana at all.

Maybe it shouldnt then?

With this high level of scrutiny displayed in this thread, verse equalization won’t happen in most cases if not all cases.

because most cases of verse equalization is there to create discussion and allow characters to interact not create artificial weakness within entirely separates franchises.

• negative mana ≈ six paths chakra (energies from different race and world that perform the same things as all of the above and is superior to all of the above in every way.)

no negative Mana would explicitly be negative chakra then

 

[KingogKings777]

no negative Mana would explicitly be negative chakra then

But there's no such thing as negative chakra though iirc.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

But there's no such thing as negative chakra though iirc.

there is

 

[KingogKings777]

there is

Scans? Cause when I type in negative chakra into google it brings me to naruto fanon.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Scans? Cause when I type in negative chakra into google it brings me to naruto fanon.

its from the Sumire arc .

 

[Arnoldstone18]

yes, which is why chakra falls under our Chi section.

At this point the only reason mana isn’t chi manipulation is because we have a magic page.

Its not an argument from semantics, the existence of our SBA for Anti Magic which excludes Chi, which chakra falls into means we have two site rules that cant co exist at the same time within the framework of this thread. because based on just taking everything at face value using our site rules, then Mana=chakra but its a mana/magic that Asta cant negate with his power because of our powernull standard, which is obviously not what most of Asta's side was arguing for, given the amount of "negate chakra arguments"

I’m not sure I understand what you said here. (I’m actually having a brain fart rn)

What power null standards are you talking about? If mana = chakra to the point that mana would’ve been chi manipulation if we didn’t have a magic page then Asta negates chakra.

Maybe it shouldnt then?

Smh.

because most case of verse equalization is there to create discussion and allow characters to interact not create artificial weakness within entirely separates franchises.

Fortunately, no artificial weakness is created here, only this.

no negative Mana would explicitly be negative chakra then

I don’t know what that is. It shows up as fan fiction when I google it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

At this point the only reason mana isn’t chi manipulation is because we have a magic page.


I’m not sure I understand what you said here. (I’m actually having a brain fart rn)

What power null standards are you talking about? If mana = chakra to the point that mana would’ve been chi manipulation if we didn’t have a magic page then Asta negates chakra.

Per our Powernull page

"Anti-Magic: Abilities that focus on nullifying magic, potentially even rejecting physical characteristics augmented by magic or making it so that the user cannot be harmed by magic at all. This can negate spells, from simple blasts to more complicated effects, and may be capable of stripping magical items of their enchantments and magical properties."

"While useful against magic users, this ability cannot nullify non-magical supernatural abilities, such as those based on chi."

Fortunately, no artificial weakness is created here, only this.

if its a weakness that's contextually only exist because of verse equalization its artificial
"Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself."

I don’t know what that is. It shows up as fan fiction when I google it.

Because its more niche compared to most forms of chakra. its under the chakra section of the narutoverse page if your looking for it, it appears in the nue arc.

 

[KingogKings777]

I don’t know what that is. It shows up as fan fiction when I google it.

Its from the boruto anime dont know if its considered canon or not though anymore cause of how different the anime and manga are at this point.

its from the Sumire arc .

Okay, and I wouldn't really call them the same thing ether from what I'm seeing.

Cause this isn't anything like this.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Per our Powernull mage

"Anti-Magic: Abilities that focus on nullifying magic, potentially even rejecting physical characteristics augmented by magic or making it so that the user cannot be harmed by magic at all. This can negate spells, from simple blasts to more complicated effects, and may be capable of stripping magical items of their enchantments and magical properties."

"While useful against magic users, this ability cannot nullify non-magical supernatural abilities, such as those based on chi."

functionality takes precedence, at this point the only difference is name given to these functions.

SBA rules takes precedence when it comes to battle boarding. Pages like what you’re using here takes precedence when it comes to Content Revisions/Properly indexing pages.

if its a weakness that's contextually only exist because of verse equalization its artificial

It’s a “weakness” allowed by our vsthread standards.

Because its more niche compared to most forms of chakra. its under the chakra section of the narutoverse page if your looking for it, it appears in the nue arc.

It’s extremely niche to the point that it’s specific to only two people. The only similarity is names?, and the fact that negative emotions are a thing? It’s vastly different in terms of functionality.

It’s more similar to six paths in terms of it being alien and superior to the human race. Which is more less just me saying “Asta can nullify chakra/mana alien to the human race”

 

[Xinsignia1]

Just gonna add, removing every drop of mana from a person will kill them, since it's tapping their latent magic power which is their life force. Latent magical power is literally no different than the latent chakra within stamina, their energies are just in their primal forms.

In the capital invasion arc, Catherine siphoned mana from the citizens around her which aged them rapidly, thus also affected their life force.

Not only is that made clear in the anime, but the manga as well. These two young ladies watch some dude get siphoned in front of them, and then Catherine turns her attention to them next and siphons them thus aging them rapidly, hands become decrepit ect.

When the witch queen healed the bulls after the fight with Paladin Damnatio she stated healing then took almost almost of her power and she was shriveling up with age like prune.

There's a little bit of confusion that I want to clear up because our wiki acknowledges that mistranslations happen. Ki is bodily energy, not life force, viz incorrectly translates both "life energy" 「生体 エネルギー seitai enerugī」and "life force" 「生命力 seimeiryoku」 as "life energy". Similar mistranslations also happened with mana and magical power which our wiki addresses. Life force is a separate thing from life energy, and always has been. Yami defines ki as 「生体 エネルギー seitai enerugī」 which is bodily or bioenergy, not life force. Bioenergy is just energy emitted by a body, whether be alive or inanimate, which natural objects possess. In fact any mention of life force in the series has never been used in the context of ki or life energy. Natural objects have no life force. Sally, the Spade captain, Yami, Licita and, every single reference to lifeforce in the manga has called it「生命力 seimeiryoku」 references the context of magical power, not ki. Natural objects like rocks have life/bioenergy, but not life force, so there is no correspondence to an organism's life-force.

There have been 3 times in the manga where life force was mistranslated as life energy 「生体 エネルギー seitai enerugī」 and since I already provided the raws that the term used was life force「生命力 seimeiryoku」 For comparison, this mistranslated scan says Zagred's spell which devours life siphoned magic power and "life energy" from Yami" which is wrong, The text says nothing about ki or life energy. The scan actually says Zagred's life devouring spell devoured magic power 「魔力 maryoku」 and "life force" 「生命力 seimeiryoku」 it makes no mention of ki or life energy. There are no scans in the series that calls ki life force or vice versa.

Black Asta leaking anti-magic killed the plant life around him. Spirits are also confirmed to be mana based life-forms and makes their life force more susceptible. Moreover, siphoning mana from someone directly impacts their life-force. In addition, Henry's magic power is his life-force without constantly expending it, he would die, Gadja was burning life to pour magic power into his ultimate magic spell, and Lucius for a brief moment even thought Yuno was burning life to acquire more magic power to fight him. Conrad even exchanged his life to cast Dooms gate.

Straight up, we should stop conflating ki and life force, especially when they have never been stated to be the same and have shown to be different. Life force has always been referenced or discussed in the context of magical power, not ki. The spade soldiers also referred to life force as magical power when siphoning it from the kidnapped Spade citizens. The wiki already acknowledges that viz often mistranslates mana and magic power, the same should apply to ki and life-force. Anti-magic can affect life force considering it already done so in the series.

Magic power manipulation really should encompass chi/life force manipulation or some limited form of it given these considerations, especially since removing all forms of magic power (including latent magical power) from a person kills them.

Chakra is a product of life force, just like like how magical power is a product of life force.

With that being said i'm voting Asta.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

functionality takes precedence, at this point the only difference is name given to these functions.

No, chakra meets the functionality of chi, you would have to make a CRT to revise Anti Magic being applicable to Chi

SBA rules takes precedence when it comes to battle boarding. Pages like what you’re using here takes precedence when it comes to Content Revisions/Properly indexing pages.

no?, you pulled that out your ass, also the very definition of excluding chi from anti magic's properties is intrinsically tied to crossverse battles

It’s a “weakness” allowed by our vsthread standards.

not really
"as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses,Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself."

It’s extremely niche to the point that it’s specific to only two people

its more than just two people btw, but even if it was 1 person, so what?, six paths senjutsu is shared among three entities , and everyone else is just recycling the exact same power as in (using the exact same pistol vs the same brand of pistol)

. The only similarity is names?, and the fact that negative emotions are a thing? It’s vastly different in terms of functionality.

is it though or are you the one now arguing semantics

Anti chakra is negative and corrupting force of chakra that originates from Nue, an entity from a different dimension thats called the underworld.

It’s more similar to six paths in terms of it being alien and superior to the human race. Which is more less just me saying “Asta can nullify chakra/mana alien to the human race”

they both stronger than their normal variants and thats where the similarities stop

six paths senjutsu does not exist in an environment like dark mana does nor can it be obtained in anything resembling the same way, nor die it carry the risk associate with Dark Mana. in fact negative mana is just glorified dark nature energy with hints of tailed beast chakra.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hag FRA via Shadow and Net’s arguments

 

[Arnoldstone18]

No, chakra meets the functionality of chi, you would have to make a CRT to revise Anti Magic being applicable to Chi

No I do not because BC magic is already functionally applicable to chi.

no?, you pulled that out your ass, also the very definition of excluding chi from anti magic's properties is intrinsically tied to crossverse battles

No it’s common sense.

You used an index page as an argument against a vsthread discussion page. Both are supernatural energies born from life energy therefore verse equalization must happen for Asta to fight effectively.

not really
"as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses,Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself."

?

they both stronger than their normal variants and thats where the similarities stop

six paths senjutsu does not exist in an environment like dark mana does nor can it be obtained in anything resembling the same way, nor die it carry the risk associate with Dark Mana. in fact negative mana is just glorified dark nature energy with hints of tailed beast chakra.

So does Six path chakra come from life energy or nah?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yknow what, I’m not even going to bother responding to any more arguments on verse equalization…

I have already straight up ask an admin what they think.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

No I do not because BC magic is already functionally applicable to chi.

yeah but Anti Magic's effects do not specifically effect Chi like abilities per the page

No it’s common sense.

You used an index page as an argument against a vsthread discussion page. Both are supernatural energies born from life energy therefore verse equalization must happen for Asta to fight effectively.

I used the accepted definition of how the powers work to argue how they would interact per our standards.

using your logic, i can say Asta gets steamrolled by Hagoromo's hax and cant negate his powers, he resists nothing and cant negate nothing and if you were to cite his profile to me linking all the abilities and what they mean id tell you "thats not a vs thread discussion thats an indexing one"

So does Six path chakra come from life energy or nah?

It comes from Hagoromo.

 

[Lokolokurah]

Asta FRA

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This has devolved into a popularity contest.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

This has devolved into a popularity contest.

Naruto washes then

 

[Joshyyy_64]

literally every thread involving Asta's anti magic is like this. 10 pages of the same arguments with someone just stonewalling. What if Asta were to be restricted from fights?

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Hagoromo fra

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Match is already over

 

[Deceived3596]

Match is already over

 

[Arnoldstone18]

8-7 for more than 72 hours = incon.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

huh, is there really such a rule?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If you check you’ll see it.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

 

[SuperStar]

W new rule

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

so.....
can this match be added on both profile as incon?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah.