Arc Comes Home With The Milk [Bleach Soul Society Arc Captain Class Scaling]

[Deceived3596]

Stop appealing to Soi-Fon, who opinion quite literally doesn't matter at all, she's proven objectively wrong as explained in Arc's post against Damage who made this exact argument, stop making it, it isn't a good one.

You're also extrapolating the reasoning behind why Ukitake needed the shield to destroy the Sokyoku in the first place, you believe it's because of his lack of power, which while possibly true, we have other interpretations which don't contradict already established feats, statements and have similar probability values, you see this isn't an innate anti-feat of Ukitake scaling to or above the attack potency of the Sokyoku, rather it can be a feat scaling the durability of the Sokyoku above its own AP.

There's no reason why this couldn't be true, we have zero pieces of evidence against this being true, it would logically address your contentions while not contradicting anything in our argument. It completely rectifies the entire situation.

 

[Arkenis]

Stop appealing to Soi-Fon, who opinion quite literally doesn't matter at all, she's proven objectively wrong as explained in Arc's post against Damage who made this exact argument, stop making it, it isn't a good one.

I'm focusing on Ukitake more, Soifon's just supporting it.

You're also extrapolating the reasoning behind why Ukitake needed the shield to destroy the Sokyoku in the first place, you believe it's because of his lack of power, which while possibly true, we have other interpretations which don't contradict already established feats, statements and have similar probability values, you see this isn't an innate anti-feat of Ukitake scaling to or above the attack potency of the Sokyoku, rather it can be a feat scaling the durability of the Sokyoku above its own AP.

There is no reasoning you can give as to why he needed a shield other than he isn't strong enough to block it himself. its that simple.

 

[InfiniteDay]

After reading through all of this I'm going to have to agree. Deceived simply has the more proof on his side to prove that this is indeed 6-B.

The scaling is fine for what has been discussed I suppose.

 

[Deceived3596]

There is no reasoning you can give as to why he needed a shield other than he isn't strong enough to block it himself. its that simple.

......

The shield wasn't meant to block the Sokyoku? it was specifically meant to destroy the Sokyoku, which it successfully did.

You should've re-read the chapters again before debating the topic g, because you're blatantly wrong on this.

 

[Arkenis]

The shield wasn't meant to block the Sokyoku? it was specifically meant to destroy the Sokyoku, which it successfully did.

block/stop the wording doesn't matter much, and looking how it's done still shows two of the strongest Captains can't just stop it themselves. How are you not getting how inconsistent this ends up making the scaling?

 

[Deceived3596]

block/stop the wording doesn't matter much, and looking how it's done still shows two of the strongest Captains can't just stop it themselves. How are you not getting how inconsistent this ends up making the scaling?

The wording does matter because we're talking about specifics Arkenis .

Are you saying they can't physically stop, similar to what Ichigo did or they can't destroy it by themselves? because these are entirely two different claims which require two entirely different counter arguments to address.

 

[Arkenis]

The wording does matter because we're talking about specifics Arkenis .

Are you saying they can't physically stop, similar to what Ichigo did or they can't destroy it by themselves? because these are entirely two different claims which require two entirely different counter arguments to address.

I'm saying that if Shunsui and Ukitake are to be scaled to Ichigo's casual feat of stopping the bird then logically that's what they would've done in this instance instead of requiring something to completely destroy it which also implies they aren't powerful as it is if they have no other means of stopping/destroying it.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm saying that if Shunsui and Ukitake are to be scaled to Ichigo's casual feat of stopping the bird then logically that's what they would've done in this instance instead of requiring something to completely destroy it which also implies they aren't powerful as it is if they have no other means of stopping/destroying it.

That doesn't imply such Ark.... It implies they aren't physically strong enough to destroy the Sokyoku itself, not that they aren't strong enough to hold back the Sokyoku, their main goal was destroying the Sokyoku itself, not hold it back. The statement about "this was the only way" is in relation to the fact the shield was the only way they could destroy the Sokyoku, not stop its physical attack like Ichigo did.

This interpretation is supported by the fact they're physically stronger and more powerful compared to Shikai Ichigo who stopped the physical attack of the Sokyoku.

Your interpretation would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume true comparative to my interpretation given the evidence.

 

[W0NDER3X]

I'm just quickly going to mention (unless someone else already did) that the Sokyoku was used to hype up the Reishi spear, a weapon capable of wounding characters on the level of Resurreccion Cien, who even at base and at 60% of his original power was stated to be stronger than Resurreccion Yammy and in Resurreccion at full power is straight up compared to base Aizen.

So, in case this hasn't been resolved yet, the method of destruction for the Sokyoku being more than 1 explosion shouldn't even be brought up.

 

[Damage3245]

I’ll address this here and now as we already accepted what method of destruction the Sokyoku was in a CGM thread. So Aizen refers to the Sokyoku as a “super high intensity thermal disruption”. Otherwise known as an explosion. Hence in the calc group thread where it got accepted by 2 CGM with 0 opposition (1 CGM was neutral). Frankly, I, nor anyone else in this thread, should have to argue about the method of destruction, when we had an entire thread for it that was accepted to be GBE based on the statement that indicated such. Nothing has changed since that thread, so hopefully that clarifies the calc’s situation. There’s a reason I made sure the calc went through a CGM thread where we determined which method of destruction was best based on the provided evidence, because I did not want to derail a CRT with calc thread talk. Meaning I don’t wanna hear any “the math can be correct but the calc isn’t taking the proper context of the series into consideration”. That is a bold-faced lie, as I made sure to have the method of destruction reviewed by CGM who have read bleach and are aware of the context.

An "intense thermal disruption" to me just means a lot of 'heat'. While it is true that you can get heat from an explosion, the description of the Sokyoku as an "intense thermal disruption" does not prove that it attacks as an explosion, and it is pretty easy to see how intense heat could be achieved without an explosion seeing as the Sokyoku's true form is a bird made out of fire.

Since the description of how the Sokyoku works doesn't specifically indicate an explosion, and since the description of the destruction of the Seireitei doesn't indicate it would be accomplished instantly or with a single attack, I think that the current interpretation for the calc is too generous and not supported by the manga itself.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm just quickly going to mention (unless someone else already did) that the Sokyoku was used to hype up the Reishi spear, a weapon capable of wounding characters on the level of Resurreccion Cien, who even at base and at 60% of his original power was stated to be stronger than Resurreccion Yammy and in Resurreccion at full power is straight up compared to base Aizen.

So, in case this hasn't been resolved yet, the method of destruction for the Sokyoku being more than 1 explosion shouldn't even be brought up.

Could you remind me precisely what the comparison is between the Sokyoku and the Reishi spear?

 

[W0NDER3X]

Could you remind me precisely what the comparison is between the Sokyoku and the Reishi spear?

The Reishi spear is stated to surpass the Sokyoku. By how much or anything like that is not known. However it is easy to conclude that using a weapon that's not even 6-B to hype up a High 6-A at least weapon doesn't really sound right.

 

[Damage3245]

The Reishi spear is stated to surpass the Sokyoku. By how much or anything like that is not known. However it is easy to conclude that using a weapon that's not even 6-B to hype up a High 6-A at least weapon doesn't really sound right.

Okay, thanks.

 

[Arkenis]

I'm just quickly going to mention (unless someone else already did) that the Sokyoku was used to hype up the Reishi spear, a weapon capable of wounding characters on the level of Resurreccion Cien, who even at base and at 60% of his original power was stated to be stronger than Resurreccion Yammy and in Resurreccion at full power is straight up compared to base Aizen.

So, in case this hasn't been resolved yet, the method of destruction for the Sokyoku being more than 1 explosion shouldn't even be brought up.

This just shows how inconsistent this whole scaling would be lmao.

That doesn't imply such Ark.... It implies they aren't physically strong enough to destroy the Sokyoku itself, not that they aren't strong enough to hold back the Sokyoku, their main goal was destroying the Sokyoku itself, not hold it back. The statement about "this was the only way" is in relation to the fact the shield was the only way they could destroy the Sokyoku, not stop its physical attack like Ichigo did.

This interpretation is supported by the fact they're physically stronger and more powerful compared to Shikai Ichigo who stopped the physical attack of the Sokyoku.

Your interpretation would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume true comparative to my interpretation given the evidence.

If they can't destroy it's true form then what are ya even scaling them to? it hitting them with its beak? Like is simply holding it back somehow 6-B? What implies that?

From what I know the calc is using the ground based explosion method as an assumption for how its done but with Ichigo he only blocks it trying to impale Rukia nothing mentioning an explosion and we don't even see an explosion when he blocked it, it at least going by the interpretation of how it would destroy the seireitei, some explosive reaction would've happened from hitting Ichigo.

 

[Deceived3596]

@Arkenis I'm going to stop debating you for a couple hours, you're actually giving me a headache with how clueless you're on this entire topic.

 

[Arkenis]

@Arkenis I'm going to stop debating you for a couple hours, you're actually giving me a headache with how clueless you're on this entire topic.

Sorry you see it that way.

 

[Arcker123]

I mean....

You made this argument

From what I know the calc is using the ground based explosion method as an assumption for how its done but with Ichigo he only blocks it trying to impale Rukia nothing mentioning an explosion and we don't even see an explosion when he blocked it, it at least going by the interpretation of how it would destroy the seireitei, some explosive reaction would've happened from hitting Ichigo.

After this was explained to you

The explosion wasn't larger because of Ichigo dampering it with his own massively higher AP/Dura, it's similar to why Las Noches wasn't instantly destroyed by Grimmjow firing his Grand Rey Cero against Ichigo, because the explosive force behind it was dampered/nullified by Ichigo's own power.

And you didn't respond to it all.

Seems like Deceived's view is more justified than yours

 

[ImmortalDread]

Tbh if this became a circling argument and no sides will concede, we may call all staff members and choose which side is more justifiable and commonsensible.
Also, if the calculation is mathematically accurate, there is no reason to think that it can't be applied because it is not “discursive”. You can recalculate the calculation if you have any uncertainties about it.

 

[Arkenis]

And you didn't respond to it all.

There was no explosion that's why I didn't respond to that post. That's why im bringing up there being no explosion.

 

[Arcker123]

There was no explosion that's why I didn't respond to that post. That's why im bringing up there being no explosion.

You're a lost cause

 

[CloverDragon03]

This just shows how inconsistent this whole scaling would be lmao.


If they can't destroy it's true form then what are ya even scaling them to? it hitting them with its beak? Like is simply holding it back somehow 6-B? What implies that?

From what I know the calc is using the ground based explosion method as an assumption for how its done but with Ichigo he only blocks it trying to impale Rukia nothing mentioning an explosion and we don't even see an explosion when he blocked it, it at least going by the interpretation of how it would destroy the seireitei, some explosive reaction would've happened from hitting Ichigo.

Deceived had explained this time and time again yet you continue to repeat the same argument ad nauseum. Please stop

The Sokyoku is described by Aizen as producing a “super high intensity thermal disruption,” which literally is an explosion. Ichigo stopping the Sokyoku is precisely why there was no Seireitei-encompassing explosion. And Ichigo having the power to stop the Sokyoku’s attack makes him 6-B

 

[skippy]

An "intense thermal disruption" to me just means a lot of 'heat'. While it is true that you can get heat from an explosion, the description of the Sokyoku as an "intense thermal disruption" does not prove that it attacks as an explosion, and it is pretty easy to see how intense heat could be achieved without an explosion seeing as the Sokyoku's true form is a bird made out of fire.

Since the description of how the Sokyoku works doesn't specifically indicate an explosion, and since the description of the destruction of the Seireitei doesn't indicate it would be accomplished instantly or with a single attack, I think that the current interpretation for the calc is too generous and not supported by the manga itself.

Explosions can be caused by a variety of factors, including the rapid release of a high-energy substance such as gasoline or natural gas, or the rapid heating or cooling of a substance that can cause it to rapidly expand or decompose.
So
In general, explosions require the presence of a gas or vapor to occur. An explosion is the rapid expansion of gases, which is typically accompanied by a loud noise and the release of energy. When a substance is heated or subjected to an external energy source, it can expand or decompose, releasing gases that can contribute to an explosion.

Seems pretty clear cut that Thermal disruptions can cause explosions.

 

[Damage3245]

Deceived had explained this time and time again yet you continue to repeat the same argument ad nauseum. Please stop

The Sokyoku is described by Aizen as producing a “super high intensity thermal disruption,” which literally is an explosion. Ichigo stopping the Sokyoku is precisely why there was no Seireitei-encompassing explosion. And Ichigo having the power to stop the Sokyoku’s attack makes him 6-B

Responded to that line in my post here.

 

[Arkenis]

The Sokyoku is described by Aizen as producing a “super high intensity thermal disruption,” which literally is an explosion. Ichigo stopping the Sokyoku is precisely why there was no Seireitei-encompassing explosion. And Ichigo having the power to stop the Sokyoku’s attack makes him 6-B

But there was no explosion at all is what I'm getting at. And I brought up that when Tite draws an explosion being blocked it's usually very massive and goes into the air or goes backwards, we don't see this at all with Ichgio which leads me to think if it's even capable of causing explosions, let alone explosions encompassing the entirety of the Seireitei.

 

[ImmortalDread]

But there was no explosion at all is what I'm getting at. And I brought up that when Tite draws an explosion being blocked it's usually very massive and goes into the air or goes backwards, we don't see this at all with Ichgio which leads me to think if it's even capable of causing explosions, let alone explosions encompassing the entirety of the Seireitei.

Deceived had explained this time and time again yet you continue to repeat the same argument ad nauseum. Please stop

The Sokyoku is described by Aizen as producing a “super high intensity thermal disruption,” which literally is an explosion. Ichigo stopping the Sokyoku is precisely why there was no Seireitei-encompassing explosion. And Ichigo having the power to stop the Sokyoku’s attack makes him 6-B

 

[Arcker123]

But there was no explosion at all is what I'm getting at. And I brought up that when Tite draws an explosion being blocked it's usually very massive and goes into the air or goes backwards, we don't see this at all with Ichgio which leads me to think if it's even capable of causing explosions, let alone explosions encompassing the entirety of the Seireitei.

This has already been explained to you.

The fact you didn't see any of this isn't a point against the Sokyoku causing explosions, as similar to GRC, Ichigo is so much above it he can completely dissipate it. you have no rebuttal beyond incredulity.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It has been explained 4 times already.

 

[Arkenis]

The fact you didn't see any of this isn't a point against the Sokyoku causing explosions, as similar to GRC, Ichigo is so much above it he can completely dissipate it. you have no rebuttal beyond incredulity.

I've already said I think it's an outlier for Ichigo and explained why through the inconsistent scaling it would cause.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

An "intense thermal disruption" to me just means a lot of 'heat'. While it is true that you can get heat from an explosion, the description of the Sokyoku as an "intense thermal disruption" does not prove that it attacks as an explosion, and it is pretty easy to see how intense heat could be achieved without an explosion seeing as the Sokyoku's true form is a bird made out of fire.

Since the description of how the Sokyoku works doesn't specifically indicate an explosion, and since the description of the destruction of the Seireitei doesn't indicate it would be accomplished instantly or with a single attack, I think that the current interpretation for the calc is too generous and not supported by the manga itself.

We can agree to disagree for now until I make my post addressing all the arguments I think need addressed so far, I appreciate y’all remaining patient as I’m taking a long weekend for vacay. However, just to clarify: your points of contention are 1) Sokyoku isn’t at full power and 2) the method of destruction is wrong? Am I missing any other major points?

 

[Damage3245]

We can agree to disagree for now until I make my post addressing all the arguments I think need addressed so far, I appreciate y’all remaining patient as I’m taking a long weekend for vacay. However, just to clarify: your points of contention are 1) Sokyoku isn’t at full power and 2) the method of destruction is wrong? Am I missing any other major points?

Those are the most important points for me.

1) The method of destruction isn't supported and requires too much speculation. (The speculation may be founded on some statements from the manga, but the conclusion reached is still too speculative for me)

2) The Sokyoku's use in an execution isn't necessarily the same as its use in mass destruction of the Seireitei/Soul Society.

Things like Soi-Fon's statement are relatively unimportant and I'm fine with the explanation you gave for that.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Awesome I appreciate the clarification, I’m going in and out of sleep with all the travel today so ima compose a response morning EST lol

 

[Damage3245]

Awesome I appreciate the clarification, I’m going in and out of sleep with all the travel today so ima compose a response morning EST lol

No problem, take care.

 

[Deceived3596]

I've already said I think it's an outlier for Ichigo and explained why through the inconsistent scaling it would cause.

You deadass have zero evidence for it being an outlier for Ichigo, the "evidence" which you've provided has been completely debunked and you haven't provided valid refutation against those debunks.

It isn't inconsistent, nothing about it is "inconsistent", you don't understand what "inconsistent" even means. It's very consistent, is supported by future feats, and future power progression, even more so than 7-A/6-C. This argument isn't logically valid. Stop making it.

 

[Luziifero]

I agree with the op the counter arguments don't seem coherent enough compared to the scans provided.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Reminder this isn’t forgotten but it’s New Year’s Eve so I’m MIA

 

[Deceived3596]

Reminder this isn’t forgotten but it’s New Year’s Eve so I’m MIA

@Eseseso Reference

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I've already said I think it's an outlier for Ichigo and explained why through the inconsistent scaling it would cause.

Why? LMAO.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Possibly the easiest character to scale, simply due to there being only one statement to gauge her power from. Like Yamamoto, Unohana has better scaling later down the line and is implied to stay at the same level of power across the series, so this won’t change her tiering, but rather can be used to flesh out her AP justifications. Also like Yamamoto, Unohana has 100 in both Attack and Spiritual Pressure stats, or 200 in AP. So, Unohana would likewise scale to the strongest caliber of Captains, and in terms of the Soul Society Arc scale above “Sokyoku level” Captains like Byakuya.

I think this clearly scales Yamamoto and Unohana relative to each other, and she should be UPGRADED from large country level, when she literally states herself to be the strongest shinigami, at the same time as Shunsui (high 6-A) exists.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

D) Why is Rukia a more objective source on Ichigo's power level than on screen feats, Ichigo himself, and the databook?

she's also literally on her deathbed and just accepted death, and under a great deal of psychological stress cause she's literally going to be executed and already accepted that

 

[Arkenis]

Why? LMAO.

Read what I typed out if you care.