Arc Comes Home With The Milk [Bleach Soul Society Arc Captain Class Scaling]

[CloverDragon03]

@Damage3245 I disagree with you because based on the scans sent by Arc and Deceived, you’d require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume that the Sokyoku’s true form is not its full power

 

[Deceived3596]

You don't see how you're relying an awful lot on "implication" here as opposed to direct evidence. I can't do anything to change your opinion on me being asinine or whatever, but from my perspective, a whole lot is being proposed based on so little.

I'm not, and your post doesn't prove that as i'll explain below.

This is the only scan presented that supports 6-B AP in any way... and even then, it's not at all direct. You have to assume that when the statement is given for the fictional enemy to use the Sokyoku, that it means that they will wipe out the entire Seireitei in a single use / attack. Is that stated anywhere on the page? Absolutely not. It even mentions the destruction of the entire Soul Society in the same moment, but is that given the same weight as the destruction of the Seireitei? No. It's dismissed "Well, that could just be over time or with multiple uses of the Sokyoku", despite such a thing not being stated or implied at all. So for this to work you have to assume:

I'm not claiming it's "direct" Damage, don't put words in my mouth, my claim was that everything points against your assumption about the Sokyoku's fullpower never being released against Ichigo, pivoting to another issue doesn't debunk that assertion homie.

I'm not going to address this because it wasn't my claim to begin with, actually stay on topic of what we're debating on instead of pivoting to other issues because you don't have any valid refutation against my claims.

And on top of that, you then have to make the assumption that when the Sokyoku executes a prisoner, it is using the same amount of Attack Potency as when someone would use it to destroy the Seireitei in a single attack. Now, I can see why you would think this; if Feat A (Seireitei destruction) is within the Sokyoku's capability, and there is no reason for the Sokyoku to be holding itself back from its full strength, then any feat performed by the Sokyoku is equal to Feat A. Except... have you considered the reason why the Sokyoku's full power wouldn't be unleashed is because it has been stated that the Sokyoku is able to destroy the Seireitei, if not the full Soul Society? That's a perfectly logical reason for why less than full power would be used on something like executing a prisoner, if the subsequent side-effect of unleashing the Sokyoku's full power was the destruction of everything else in the vicinity. That's perfectly reasonable and it hardly needs spelling out for us.

That's a fine assumption to make because it's directly implied such Damage, just appealing to the absurdity of it doesn't debunk that being the case.

That's only within relation to the Sokyoku directly interacting with the Seireitei/SS itself, it wouldn't innately destroy everything around it given the fact it's attack something with equal defensive/more defensive comparative to the Seireitei/SS itself which is capable of dampering the blow behind the Sokyoku's attack. That isn't a logical contradiction when given context.

Things like "The Sokyoku's power is amplified dozens of times when executing a prisoner" or "The spiritual pressure can overwhelm everything in existence" are anecdotal; they don't tell us anything concrete here. The Sokyoku being in its "true form" for both executing a prisoner and theoretically destroying the Seireitei does not tell us that Feat A = Feat B. That's like saying if a character goes into Bankai then all of their attacks in Bankai mode are the exact same, despite characters like Byakuya and Ichigo showing us they can do one feat in their Bankai and another stronger feat in their Bankai too.

.....

What's the reasoning behind why we shouldn't believe these claims to be true when we have zero counter evidence/anti-feats against them? oh wait we ******* have none. Stop making unneeded assumptions just so you can downplay, i'm tired of dealing with this shit when i debate you.

You clearly didn't even read the scan i sent you Damage, that scan, in actuality says "the Sokyoku's halberd is released, its spiritual pressure overwhelms everything in existence". This is clearly referencing the fact that when it releases its true form against Ichigo, it generates spiritual pressure which is hyped up being capable of "overwhelming everything in existence". Which heavily implies it did release its fullpower against Ichigo.

That isn't a separate sentence Damage, that's the continuation of the same premise which is about the Sokyoku which was used against Ichigo, actually read the scan before making this blatantly wrong claim.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not claiming it's "direct" Damage, don't put words in my mouth, my claim was that everything points against your assumption about the Sokyoku's fullpower never being released against Ichigo, pivoting to another issue doesn't debunk that assertion homie.

Can't respond to everything at the moment, but I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I wasn't quoting you as saying "direct" at any point.

 

[Deceived3596]

Can't respond to everything at the moment, but I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I wasn't quoting you as saying "direct" at any point.

Sure.....

I don't believe that at all Damage, i know your character when it comes to debating Bleach, everytime i debate you regarding the series i already believe you're being dishonest with me so it doesn't really affect me tbh. Regardless if you purposefully meant to do it or not.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It’s assumed that one is at their full power unless stated otherwise, because it would be noted if they were holding back or suppressed in any way, so I don’t get this “we don’t know if” argument. The counters also lack any form of evidence compared to the overwhelming evidence toward the positive, which would require at least some counter proof of the negative. I know you’ve gotta prove the positive first, but… that’s already being done, and there’s zero countering proof.

From my POV, it’s pretty one-sided atm unless there’s something I’m missing

 

[Damage3245]

Sure.....

I don't believe that at all Damage, i know your character when it comes to Bleach.

Wow, now you're just resorting to Ad Hominem, I see.

I'm not going to address this because it wasn't my claim to begin with, actually stay on topic of what we're debating on instead of pivoting to other issues because you don't have any valid refutation against my claims.

I'm not arguing against "your claim" in the first place, I'm arguing against the proposal as a whole which is bigger than just you.

That's a fine assumption to make because it's directly implied such Damage, just appealing to the absurdity of it doesn't debunk that being the case.

That's only within relation to the Sokyoku directly interacting with the Seireitei/SS itself, it wouldn't innately destroy everything around it given the fact it's attack something with equal defensive/more defensive comparative to the Seireitei/SS itself which is capable of dampering the blow behind the Sokyoku's attack. That isn't a logical contradiction when given context.

It's not an Appeal to Absurdity. And I don't agree it's a fine assumption to make.

What's the reasoning behind why we shouldn't believe these claims to be true when we have zero counter evidence/anti-feats against them? oh wait we ******* have none. Stop making unneeded assumptions just so you can downplay, i'm tired of dealing with this shit i debate you.

Who the hell said we shouldn't believe these claims to be true? If you're sick of debating against me, then kindly stop responding.

You clearly didn't even read the scan i sent you Damage, that scan, in actuality says "the Sokyoku's halberd is released, its spiritual pressure overwhelms everything in existence". This is clearly referencing the fact that when it releases its true form against Ichigo, it generates spiritual pressure which is hyped up being capable of "overwhelming everything in existence". Which heavily implies it did release its fullpower against Ichigo.

And I don't see that statement as having any relevance here. I'm not buying your claim of implication of full power here.

 

[Damage3245]

It’s assumed that one is at their full power unless stated otherwise, because it would be noted if they were holding back or suppressed in any way, so I don’t get this “we don’t know if” argument. The counters also lack any form of evidence compared to the overwhelming evidence toward the positive, which would require at least some counter proof of the negative. I know you’ve gotta prove the positive first, but… that’s already being done, and there’s zero countering proof.

From my POV, it’s pretty one-sided atm unless there’s something I’m missing

Excuse me? The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim here.

I don't see how you can reasonably ask "Prove that Ichigo wasn't blocking 6-B AP then".

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's not an Appeal to Absurdity. And I don't agree it's a fine assumption to make.

Gonna be honest here. It very much is

 

[CloverDragon03]

Excuse me? The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim here.

I don't see how you can reasonably ask "Prove that Ichigo wasn't blocking 6-B AP then".

And that proof has been given while you have shown absolutely nothing.

 

[Damage3245]

Gonna be honest here. It very much is

Clover... Does this scan prove that the Sokyoku's full power would destroy the Seireitei in a single explosion that would cover the Seireitei's diameter?

 

[Deceived3596]

Wow, now you're just resorting to Ad Hominem, I see.

I don't care.

You've been appealing to absurdity this entire debate, i don't care if you believe i'm using fallacies or not.

I'm not arguing against "your claim" in the first place, I'm arguing against the proposal as a whole which is bigger than just you.

You're still pivoting because you're debating me atm, and our entire debate has been centered around one singular point. Stick to said point.

It's not an Appeal to Absurdity. And I don't agree it's a fine assumption to make.

I disagree.

Who the hell said we shouldn't believe these claims to be true? If you're sick of debating against me, then kindly stop responding.

You homie

Nah i'm good.

And I don't see that statement as having any relevance here. I'm not buying your claim of implication of full power here.

It absolutely has relevance because it heavily implies that the Sokyoku's fullpower was released against Ichigo, which has been our entire contention against each other this entire debate.

I don't see how you don't see the relevance in that. I'm shocked your aren't buying my claims Damage, i really am .

 

[CloverDragon03]

Clover... Does this scan prove that the Sokyoku's full power would destroy the Seireitei in a single explosion that would cover the Seireitei's diameter?

I was the one that accepted the calc so you tell me. Also, the subject is if its full power was used when Ichigo stopped it, so please don’t derail

 

[Arkenis]

It’s assumed that one is at their full power unless stated otherwise, because it would be noted if they were holding back or suppressed in any way, so I don’t get this “we don’t know if” argument. The counters also lack any form of evidence compared to the overwhelming evidence toward the positive, which would require at least some counter proof of the negative. I know you’ve gotta prove the positive first, but… that’s already being done, and there’s zero countering proof.

From my POV, it’s pretty one-sided atm unless there’s something I’m missing

Damage has shown several instances of characters who scale to Ichigo or above all being astonished by Ichigo’s feat, in what way is that not a sufficient counter to the proposed scaling?

Soi-Fon's statement

Even if we settled on that above, there is still an issue with regarding Ichigo as scaling the Sokyoku.

Soi-Fon considers Ichigo's feat of blocking the Sokyoku "impossible", specifically regarding the act of "a single Zanpakuto blocking the destructive power of a million Zanpakuto" as being impossible.

Now, the characters in Bleach can sense each other's spiritual energy / pressure, can they not? So if Ichigo himself had comparable pressure to the Sokyoku, Soi-Fon should be aware of it and it would be pretty self-explanatory that someone equally powerful or superior to the Sokyoku could block it... but seemingly Soi-Fon does not sense that from Ichigo, as she's so shocked at what he's done.

Now, Soi-Fon should have a pretty good idea as to the capabilities of her fellow Captains. According to the proposed scaling, there are around seven or eight fellow Captains who scale comparably or far superior to the Sokyoku... So why exactly is Soi-Fon considering it impossible for a single Zanpakuto to block the Sokyoku if there are over half a dozen people in her own organization that should have that capability? Shouldn't this raise doubts as to whether all these characters should be scaling to this level of power without supporting feats of their own?


Shihoin Shield

This is a less important point but still occured to me as something that needed bringing up. When Ukitake and Shunsui do their little rebellion to avert the execution themselves, they rely on the Shihoin Shield, a special item from Yoruichi's clan to destroy the Sokyoku. Ukitake has to go the trouble of releasing a seal on it and states "... this was the only way."

He probably means that them rebelling at all is the "only way" for them to go, but this does raise the question of why are they needing to use this special artifact to destroy the Sokyoku when according to the scaling both of them are individually far superior to the Sokyoku? Why didn't either of them simply destroy the Sokyoku of their own accord if they're powerful enough to do so?

 

[Damage3245]

I was the one that accepted the calc so you tell me. Also, the subject is if its full power was used when Ichigo stopped it, so please don’t derail

To me the subject is "Is Ichigo 6-B for blocking the Sokyoku", so it's all relevant.

 

[CloverDragon03]

To me the subject is "Is Ichigo 6-B for blocking the Sokyoku", so it's all relevant.

It’s not. I’ve seen this kinda thing before, where when the scaling debate goes nowhere, you target the calc itself. The calc itself and who scales to it are two different beasts, so I have to ask again to please not derail

 

[Damage3245]

It’s not. I’ve seen this kinda thing before, where when the scaling debate goes nowhere, you target the calc itself. The calc itself and who scales to it are two different beasts, so I have to ask again to please not derail

I'm arguing against both sides of it, the calc and the scaling, but okay.

 

[Deceived3596]

It’s not. I’ve seen this kinda thing before, where when the scaling debate goes nowhere, you target the calc itself. The calc itself and who scales to it are two different beasts, so I have to ask again to please not derail

Thank you Clover.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So a lot of debate has occurred, can someone give me a tldr of what the main points of contention are? Or damage have we not moved past your original post? And if not could you dm me a link to that specific message so it’s easier to find

 

[Deceived3596]

So a lot of debate has occurred, can someone give me a tldr of what the main points of contention are? Or damage have we not moved past your original post? And if not could you dm me a link to that specific message so it’s easier to find

I got you homie.

I'll send over those kingassripper videos on the double.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I got you homie.

I'll send over those kingassripper videos on the double.

Thanks boo

 

[CloverDragon03]

So a lot of debate has occurred, can someone give me a tldr of what the main points of contention are? Or damage have we not moved past your original post? And if not could you dm me a link to that specific message so it’s easier to find

Arkenis linked the original message a few posts ago. It’s basically still about that

 

[AKM sama]

I was asked to comment here on the Sokyoku feat. I don't think we should assume the method of destruction to be a single explosion because the statement provides no such detail. That's our standard procedure regarding such statements. We'd need some kind of direct evidence or strong implication to reach that conclusion.

 

[Arkenis]

The argument for Soifon and Urahara stating things that contradict the scaling proposed is incredibly hard to look past for me, Tite isn’t going to just have knowledgeable characters state important things and then end up saying nah they scale to it lol.

I see urahara isn’t added, is this because he scales below Ichigo, and basically every captain? I may have forgotten but if he did get weaker since him leaving the soul society then it makes sense but otherwise I don’t see the logic in scaling people to the calc or to ichigo when Soifon’s statement and the other characters acknowledging the feat.

I do wanna point out that Soifon says it’s impossible for him to have blocked a million zanpakto’s but we know during execution it increases dozens of times so maybe in the instance of Ichigo blocking it wasnt at its full power but other statements in the databook do contradict that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I was asked to comment here on the Sokyoku feat. I don't think we should assume the method of destruction to be a single explosion because the statement provides no such detail. That's our standard procedure regarding such statements. We'd need some kind of direct evidence or strong implication to reach that conclusion.

This is a scaling CRT though, not a calc discussion.

 

[Damage3245]

This is a scaling CRT though, not a calc discussion.

If the calc was flawed, it would negligent of us to approve of a scaling CRT that depends on it.

 

[Deceived3596]

The argument for Soifon and Urahara stating things that contradict the scaling proposed is incredibly hard to look past for me, Tite isn’t going to just have knowledgeable characters state important things and then end up saying nah they scale to it lol.

These aren't "knowledgeable characters" per say, we have actually have zero idea on how knowledgeable Soi-Fon is on the full capabilities of the Sokyoku, also i believe you meant Ukitake rather than Urahara?

He doesn't need to state it, he directly shows it, like the lack of statements doesn't debunk the very visual, concrete scaling which is expressed in the arc.

I see urahara isn’t added, is this because he scales below Ichigo, and basically every captain? I may have forgotten but if he did get weaker since him leaving the soul society then it makes sense but otherwise I don’t see the logic in scaling people to the calc or to ichigo when Soifon’s statement and the other characters acknowledging the feat.

Urahara wasn't added because he wasn't really apart of the SS, nor does he have a SS key, Soifon's statement isn't an innate counter as explained by Arc in his response against Damage, but if you don't believe that counter was satisfactory then that's your opinion to have.

I do wanna point out that Soifon says it’s impossible for him to have blocked a million zanpakto’s but we know during execution it increases dozens of times so maybe in the instance of Ichigo blocking it wasnt at its full power but other statements in the databook do contradict that.

That's just evidence against Soifon being an infallible character tbh, which was deeply explained in Arc's refutation against this exact argument. Also if you're conceding that the databooks contradict this assertion why are you still making it when other assertions which don't contradict the databooks, and hold similar probability values exist?

 

[AKM sama]

This is a scaling CRT though, not a calc discussion.

It's based on a calc. For the sake of this CRT we need to also discuss the validity of the calc and if the assumptions taken into account are reliable.

 

[Damage3245]

It's based on a calc. For the sake of this CRT we need to also discuss the validity of the calc and if the assumptions taken into account are reliable.

Agreed. A calc can be mathematically correct and approved by CGM's based on that, but whether the calc is appropriate to apply is a topic for the CRT as well.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I can explain why I utilized the ground based explosion formula and why it’s valid maybe later tonight. I’m on vacation so I am a bit busy.

 

[AKM sama]

Understandable. I will also be busy. It is the year end after all.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

a lot has happened since i posted, can anyone summarize their Positions to me.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I was asked to comment here on the Sokyoku feat. I don't think we should assume the method of destruction to be a single explosion because the statement provides no such detail. That's our standard procedure regarding such statements. We'd need some kind of direct evidence or strong implication to reach that conclusion.

I’ll address this here and now as we already accepted what method of destruction the Sokyoku was in a CGM thread. So Aizen refers to the Sokyoku as a “super high intensity thermal disruption”. Otherwise known as an explosion. Hence in the calc group thread where it got accepted by 2 CGM with 0 opposition (1 CGM was neutral). Frankly, I, nor anyone else in this thread, should have to argue about the method of destruction, when we had an entire thread for it that was accepted to be GBE based on the statement that indicated such. Nothing has changed since that thread, so hopefully that clarifies the calc’s situation. There’s a reason I made sure the calc went through a CGM thread where we determined which method of destruction was best based on the provided evidence, because I did not want to derail a CRT with calc thread talk. Meaning I don’t wanna hear any “the math can be correct but the calc isn’t taking the proper context of the series into consideration”. That is a bold-faced lie, as I made sure to have the method of destruction reviewed by CGM who have read bleach and are aware of the context.

a lot has happened since i posted, can anyone summarize their Positions to me.

I’ve kept the agree/disagree section of the OP largely updated with the current positions if that’s sufficient.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Being a “super high intensity thermal disruption” would warrant the explosion method being used, as that is pretty solidly an explosion

 

[Arkenis]

These aren't "knowledgeable characters" per say, we have actually have zero idea on how knowledgeable Soi-Fon is on the full capabilities of the Sokyoku, also i believe you meant Ukitake rather than Urahara?

He doesn't need to state it, he directly shows it, like the lack of statements doesn't debunk the very visual, concrete scaling which is expressed in the arc.

Yeah I meant Ukitake. But that brings me to my next point then, Ukitake and Shunseui are literally supposed to be above the other captains, and that is on his page lmao. How would he need the shield but Ichigo doesn't?

 

[Arkenis]

a lot has happened since i posted, can anyone summarize their Positions to me.

Right now they are discussing the calc and the method being used. I'm mainly just arguing about the characters like Soifon and Ukitake's statements which I think contradict scaling the captains to Ichigo. I ultimately think this line of scaling just shouldn't be used at all.


I wanted to bring this up since they are talking about the calc and the argument that the Halberd would be one shotting the soul society; when Ichigo blocked it, why wasn't there a bigger explosion? Like an explosion at least showing that the Halberd is remotely capable of one shotting the soul society? This to me furtther proves it isn't powerful enough to do something like that. it would take several shots to accomplish the destruction of the soul society going by what the true form shows us

 

[Deceived3596]

I wanted to bring this up since they are talking about the calc and the argument that the Halberd would be one shotting the soul society; when Ichigo blocked it, why wasn't there a bigger explosion? Like an explosion at least showing that the Halberd is remotely capable of one shotting the soul society? This to me furtther proves it isn't powerful enough to do something like that. it would take several shots to accomplish the destruction of the soul society going by what the true form shows us

1. We don't assume it's capable of "oneshotting the SS", we assume it's capable of destroying the Seireitei in a singular explosion. Massive difference, one would be High 6-A bare minimum while the other is only 6-B.
2. The explosion wasn't larger because of Ichigo dampering it with his own massively higher AP/Dura, it's similar to why Las Noches wasn't instantly destroyed by Grimmjow firing his Grand Rey Cero against Ichigo, because the explosive force behind it was dampered/nullified by Ichigo's own power.

 

[Arkenis]

We don't assume it's capable of "oneshotting the SS", we assume it's capable of destroying the Seireitei in a singular explosion. Massive difference, one would be High 6-A bare minimum while the other is only 6-B.

Oh okay, I had thought this was about the ss but even with the seireitei my issue is still there.

The explosion wasn't larger because of Ichigo dampering it with his own massively higher AP/Dura, it's similar to why Las Noches wasn't instantly destroyed by Grimmjow firing his Grand Rey Cero against Ichigo, because the explosive force behind it was dampered/nullified by Ichigo's own power.

This only works if we already have established reasoning for why Ichigo is so vastly above it when so many others are seemingly not. And this doesn't really follow with how Tite tends to show explosions being countered by stronger people, he shows us massive explosions even when they're blocked by the stronger person so I don't agree with that reasoning.

 

[Damage3245]

Will respond to Arc7's and Clover's points in a few hours. Apologies for the wait.

 

[Deceived3596]

This only works if we already have established reasoning for why Ichigo is so vastly above it when so many others are seemingly not. And this doesn't really follow with how Tite tends to show explosions being countered by stronger people, he shows us massive explosions even when they're blocked by the stronger person so I don't agree with that reasoning.

We do have an established reason, it's called Ichigo casually blocking it with one arm while in Shikai :moyaI, and we've already addressed the captain portion of your argument, these aren't infallible characters nor are their statements innate contradictions against them scaling to or above the Sokyoku, Soi-Fon doesn't even really scale to the value while Ukitake's statement doesn't innately prove he doesn't have the power to destroy the Sokyoku by himself.

How do you reconcile the fact Ukitake directly scales above base Byakuya who is capable of clashing with Shikai Ichigo who was capable of blocking the Sokyoku?.

 

[Arkenis]

We do have an established reason, it's called Ichigo casually blocking it with one arm while in Shikai :moyaI, and we've already addressed the captain portion of your argument, these aren't infallible characters nor are their statements innate contradictions against them scaling to or above the Sokyoku, Soi-Fon doesn't even really scale to the value while Ukitake's statement doesn't innately prove he doesn't have the power to destroy the Sokyoku by himself.

How do you reconcile the fact Ukitake directly scales above base Byakuya who is capable of clashing with Shikai Ichigo who was capable of blocking the Sokyoku?.

I'm talking about reasoning from the story lmao, like why Ichigo became strong enough to casually block something Ukitake and Soifon see no way in stopping without a special shield. And idk what you mean by reconcile it, Ukitake scales above Byakuya and Ichigo, blocking the Sokyoku is an insane outlier that shouldn't be taken into account as it makes base Ichigo scale above Ukitake who thinks there's no other way to stop it without the shield.

This scaling just seems to ignore how inconsistent this would make Ichigo and Byakuya and tons of other's. Here the scaling looks like this from what I gathered.

Shikai Ichigo blocks Sokyoku.
Shikai Ichigo scales to Byakuya.
Byakuya scales below Ukitake.
Ukitake thinks there's no way to stop the Sokyoku without the shield.
Soifon finds it impossible to have blocked it.

You guys are effectively scaling Byakuya and Shikai Ichigo above Ukitake which doesn't make sense in the story, let alone this effecting people and basically everyone after the arc.