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Arc Comes Home With The Milk [Bleach Soul Society Arc Captain Class Scaling]

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I’ll get to a response to this sometime tomorrow as im just getting home from vacation and it’s very late, I appreciate y’all being patient.
 
Damage3245 said:
1) The method of destruction isn't supported and requires too much speculation. (The speculation may be founded on some statements from the manga, but the conclusion reached is still too speculative for me)
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First thing I want to bring up is two CGM, who are knowledgeable on Bleach, believe that the ground-based explosion formula is the correct assumption to make as per the calc group thread (you remained neutral at the time but it's clear now you disagree). Aizen tells us that the Sokyoku can vaporize Souls with a super high intensity thermal disruption. The reason this got accepted as a ground-based explosion calc is due to the nature of what super high intensity thermal disruptions are, they are rapid increases in thermal energy, and such things lead to explosions. For example, thermonuclear bombs utilize high temperatures to facilitate nuclear fusion to create a massive explosion, aka a super high intensity thermal disruption. Most massive explosions work on the principles of using high temperatures to release loads of energy in the form of an explosion, hence why Mitch and Clover voted for the explosion end to be valid based on the information given. To claim a "super high intensity thermal disruption" cannot generate an explosion is inherently incorrect, as we see in our most powerful bombs of today, that they do. The claim is not speculative at all, Aizen is essentially calling the Sokyoku "the thermonuclear bomb of the Gotei 13".

Damage3245 said:
2) The Sokyoku's use in an execution isn't necessarily the same as its use in mass destruction of the Seireitei/Soul Society.
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I vehemently disagree with this point and I'll explain why. The Sokyoku has the power of a million Zanpakuto and when it is used to execute a Soul Reaper, it's power is multiplied several dozen times. This statement tells us two things, the Sokyoku has a baseline power of a million Zanpakuto, and when used to kill a Soul Reaper it gets a massive power boost. The Sokyoku has two power levels, its base form (the Halberd) and the form it takes when executing a Soul Reaper (the Kiko-Oh). Now let's run through some deductive reasoning. We know the Sokyoku can amp itself to its most fatal/destructive when executing a Soul Reaper. We know that the villain is going to steal the Sokyoku during the execution and use it to annihilate the Seireitei and then Soul Society. So, let's ask the question, why does the villain need to wait for the Sokyoku to be used in execution of a Soul Reaper to steal it and blow shit up? Because the Sokyoku is at it's most lethal when executing a Soul Reaper. The Sokyoku not only has its seals removed to execute a Soul Reaper, but it amps itself several dozen times. If a character wants a weapon of mass destruction, they go for the most damaging weapon they can get, and the Sokyoku is at it's most damaging as Kiko-Oh.

Now let's see if there's any support for the deductions I've made. When the Sokyoku is unsealed for execution it's power starts to drastically rise before transforming into its true form. The databook confirms that the Kiko-Oh has that "1 million Zanpakuto power" in the moment when Ichigo stops it, so it is objectively not weaker than it's "1 million Zanpakuto power" that can destroy Seireitei. The Kiko-Oh releases so much reiatsu that it is "overwhelming everything in existence", which while not a literal statement is by far indicative of the weapon being at its full power. The Kiko-Oh is also referred to as the true form of the Sokyoku as seen in the prior scans, a characters "true form" in battle shounen almost always referring to someone's peak form/max power, which is true especially for Bleach as Ichigo's strongest Zanpakuto is called his "True Zanpakuto" and Zangetsu's peak is called "True Zangetsu".

Now let's look at some more implications to support the initial deduction. The Takka (the execution stand) is stated to be capable of blocking an equal amount of power that the Sokyoku can release. So, if the Takka is designed to be able to withstand an equal amount of power that the Sokyoku can resist, it would logically have durability on par with Sokyoku's max power. As it wouldn't be able to withstand the Sokyoku, if the Sokyoku's power could destroy it. This matters because Ichigo is able to destroy the Takka. If Ichigo can destroy something that can withstand the power of the Sokyoku, Ichigo's power would logically surpass that of the Sokyoku.

In our very own powerscaling page, under examples of viable powerscaling, it states the following: Character A performed a feat of destroying a City and has City level durability. Character B has overpowered, critically injured and is portrayed as physically superior to Character A. In this case, it is safe to assess that Character B has City level Attack Potency, despite not having feat of City destroying themselves. Now let me replace Character A and Character B with words from Bleach: The Sokyoku has performed a feat (is capable of performing said feat via statements) of destroying a Country and has Country level durability (the Takka). Ichigo has overpowered, critically injured and is portrayed as physically superior to the Sokyoku and Takka. In this case, it is safe to assess that Ichigo has Country level Attack Potency, despite not having feat of Country destroying themselves. You see how seamlessly this Ichigo-Sokyoku scaling fits in with the example of what viable powerscaling is? We assume a character (Sokyoku in this case) scales to their normal/full levels of power unless we are given a reason to assume otherwise (they're off guard, nerfed, weakened, etc.), as per the conclusions of this thread. As for the Sokyoku, we have no reason to assume it was nerfed at all, when it specifically is stated to amp itself beyond it's baseline power when executing a Soul Reaper (aka what it was doing when Ichigo blocked it).

So, since there is no evidence to support the assumption that the Sokyoku was nerfed in any manner (in fact the evidence is quite the opposite), and the Ichigo-Sokyoku powerscaling falls under our very own standards of viable powerscaling, Ichigo will scale to the Sokyoku's full power and not an unsupported nerfed version of it.



To give a bit of a concluding statement, I obviously believe the Sokyoku calc and the scaling are very concrete and supported. I also don't intend to argue in circles forever, so if you personally aren't convinced I am fine agreeing to disagree. I believe I have thoroughly debunked the opposing arguments using evidence from the canon material and from our very own site standards as well. Apologies for the late response. Anyways, I'm calling it for the night I'll be back in a handful of hours.
 
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Arc got that dawg in him.

If you still believe that the Sokyoku's "true form" doesn't release its "true power" when it's executing someone you're just being ******* dishonest at that point and shouldn't even be commenting on this thread. We have ZERO reason to believe it isn't, every piece of evidence points to it being the case while ZERO contradictory pieces of evidence exist against that interpretation.

And yes i'm directly speaking to you Damage, i'm not going to mince my words or anything like that. Stop making this absolute bullshit claim that isn't supported by anything and is directly contradicted by everything. I'm fine with your contentions with the Sokyoku being assumed an explosion or not because of my lack of knowledge regarding calcs, so it isn't my right to tell you if you're correct or incorrect. But i'm most definitely placing my foot down on this claim because this doesn't require such knowledge, it just requires an average grasp of logical thinking and deductive reasoning. Which is something i believe i have.

I'm only being this direct with you because i don't want this thread to keep constantly going in circles regarding already addressed and debunked talking points. It's needlessly extending the length of this thread, and agitating everyone who's apart of it.
 
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Also consistent with the fact a vasto lorde and adjuchas are equal to 100s of thousands of menos Grande,1 menos = to 100s of hollows. 1 hollow is equal to a normal soul reaper/zanpakto. Which comes out to at least 80 million zanpakto
Screenshot_2023-01-04-00-51-58.png


Ichigo at this point is mid tier captain level, which is around baseline vasto lorde level if not high level adjuchas Tho aizen's arrancar vasto lorde are much more powerful than a normal vasto lorde
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
So, since there is no evidence to support the assumption that the Sokyoku was nerfed in any manner (in fact the evidence is quite the opposite), and the Ichigo-Sokyoku powerscaling falls under our very own standards of viable powerscaling, Ichigo will scale to the Sokyoku's full power and not an unsupported nerfed version of it.
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There is, wer're gonna get unsupported headcanon to match his scaling that's directly contradicted by the feats, statements, narrative, guidebooks, and logical conclusions to match people's goals.
 
Arkenis said:
Im not typing out my argument again, if you actually care to read my argument go look for it.
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Just read it out, terrible argument. He should scale to it 100% based on the narrative, feats alongside it like the destruction of the scaffold, and the guidebooks. Read bleach pls.
 
“I disagree with this feat because it is an outlier”. As DDM said, this is honestly pretty much a weak reason.
@Deceived3596 I wanted to confirm with one thing, but there are no anti-feats or? (Just making sure)
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
DDM hasn’t commented here?
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I was referring to outlier's reason. I use DDM reference to show how stupefied it is to disagree with a thread because it is “outlier” where obviously there is no anti-feats. It just a reference, dw
 
ImmortalDread said:
I was referring to outlier's reason. I use DDM reference to show how stupefied it is to disagree with a thread because it is “outlier” where obviously there is no anti-feats. It just a reference, dw
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I mean it’s SS Arc post Bankai training Ichigo’s initial feat. Tmk there’s not an instance where he get negged by something that is inherently weaker than the Sokyoku.
 
Sorry, but I'm going to need a bit more time to complete my response post. I want to make sure I respond to each point thoroughly since my hope is that it will be the last major post I have to leave here. So I will most likely be posting it tomorrow morning/afternoon.
 
Ok so what feat would even make this an outlier? Because every AP feat is also a DC feat, and nowhere can we know that the DC of a feat is equal to the AP of the person peforming it, it's all based on an assumption right. Like it's entirely possble Taito Kubo meant for them to be high 4-A or some shit and just happen to have 6-B AP at this point, so calling it an outlier would be quite odd.
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
Ok so what feat would even make this an outlier? Because every AP feat is also a DC feat, and nowhere can we know that the DC of a feat is equal to the AP of the person peforming it, it's all based on an assumption right. Like it's entirely possble Taito Kubo meant for them to be high 4-A or some shit and just happen to have 6-B AP at this point, so calling it an outlier would be quite odd.
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what are you talking about
 
Guacamolefletcher said:
Ok so what feat would even make this an outlier? Because every AP feat is also a DC feat, and nowhere can we know that the DC of a feat is equal to the AP of the person peforming it, it's all based on an assumption right. Like it's entirely possble Taito Kubo meant for them to be high 4-A or some shit and just happen to have 6-B AP at this point, so calling it an outlier would be quite odd.
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what
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
First thing I want to bring up is two CGM, who are knowledgeable on Bleach, believe that the ground-based explosion formula is the correct assumption to make as per the calc group thread (you remained neutral at the time but it's clear now you disagree).
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With respect to the two Calc Group Members, neither of them gave any reasoning for why it would be the most correct choice, they just accepted it. Which is fair for just an evaluation, but it's not as though Calc Group Members can't make mistakes.

Arc7Kuroi said:
Aizen tells us that the Sokyoku can vaporize Souls with a super high intensity thermal disruption. The reason this got accepted as a ground-based explosion calc is due to the nature of what super high intensity thermal disruptions are, they are rapid increases in thermal energy, and such things lead to explosions.
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Intense heat could lead to explosions, but not necessarily.

Case in point being Bankai Yamamoto's 15,000,000 degrees heat which can passively vaporize other fighters in his vicinity... but he isn't generating massive explosions with his raw heat.

Nor is an explosion the only means of destruction possible from a source of intense heat; a sufficient amount of heat over a sufficient amount of time would destroy all of the buildings of Seireitei, wipe out every last citizen and render the land uninhabitable - all of which would satisfy the condition for Seireitei to be "destroyed" by the fictitious enemy without requiring a single, devastating explosion.

If we focus on the two most relevant statements for the Sokyoku's AP here:

Aizen's letter: "The one who plotted Rukia's execution intends to use the Sokyoku to destroy not only the Seireitei, but the entire Soul Society as well."

Aizen's speech; "The Konpaku can be made to evaporate by a super high intensity thermal disruption, such as the Sokyoku..."

Now, from my perspective, a 'high intensity thermal disruption' simply means a significant amount of heat. Which makes sense since the effects on the Konpaku is that the Konpaku will "evaporate" and the true form of the Sokyoku is a phoenix-like fiery bird.

Now, could just a significant amount of heat destroy the Seireitei, let alone the Soul Society? Well, yes, I believe it could as I explained just up above. But for precedent on this, we can return to the case of Yamamoto's Bankai.

Yamamoto's Bankai has been stated to inevitably destroy Soul Society, as explained in this calc, through an insane amount of heat and there is no requirement to assume that an explosion is involved here.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I do not agree with how Aizen's statement is being selectively taken to mean "The Sokyoku could destroy the Seireitei in a single shot... but destroying the Soul Society is where we have to be skeptical." The notion that the mention of Soul Society being destroyed is unimportant and should be disregarded completely because a 38.9 Teraton version of the Sokyoku could accomplish the feat of busting the surface of Soul Society over a couple hours of continuous use strikes me as being weirdly arbitrary.

If "The Sokyoku can destroy the entire Soul Society" can be reasonably downplayed to "The Soul Society could be destroyed over time and doesn't require a single explosive attack to wipe it all out at once."

Then the logic still seems equally applicable for "The Sokyoku can destroy the entire Seireitei" to mean "The Seireitei could be destroyed over time and doesn't require a single explosive attack to wipe it all out at once."

If you have no problem with the first line for the destruction of Soul Society, I don't see what is so objectionable about the second line for the destruction of the Seireitei.

Arc7Kuroi said:
For example, thermonuclear bombs utilize high temperatures to facilitate nuclear fusion to create a massive explosion, aka a super high intensity thermal disruption. Most massive explosions work on the principles of using high temperatures to release loads of energy in the form of an explosion, hence why Mitch and Clover voted for the explosion end to be valid based on the information given. To claim a "super high intensity thermal disruption" cannot generate an explosion is inherently incorrect, as we see in our most powerful bombs of today, that they do. The claim is not speculative at all, Aizen is essentially calling the Sokyoku "the thermonuclear bomb of the Gotei 13".
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The claim is not that the Sokyoku cannot generate explosions, but that there is no solid proof that it would.

I'm not that well versed on thermonuclear bombs to be honest, but a look at the Wikipedia page for them summarizes it as:
  1. A (relatively) small fission bomb known as the "primary" explodes.
  2. Energy released in the primary is transferred to the secondary (or fusion) stage. This energy compresses the fusion fuel and sparkplug; the compressed sparkplug becomes supercritical and undergoes a fission chain reaction, further heating the compressed fusion fuel to a high enough temperature to induce fusion.
  3. Energy released by the fusion events continues heating the fuel, keeping the reaction going.
  4. The fusion fuel of the secondary stage may be surrounded by a layer of additional fuel that undergoes fission when hit by the neutrons from the reactions within. These fission events account for about half of the total energy released in typical designs.
So yes, I can see how you get the interpretation that intense amount of heat will result in a really powerful explosion, but the difference here is that in a traditional bomb, the energy or heat from the initial triggering explosion needs to heat up a fuel source in order for further fusion to occur which then releases even more heat and energy as a byproduct which constitutes the nuclear explosion.

This is all to say that I see your point and where you're getting your conclusion from for the comparison of the Sokyoku to a bomb, but I don't think it is reasonable to claim that just because the Sokyoku can produce intense amounts of heat, then its destructive effects should be assumed to take the form of an explosion.

As I explained up above, we have precedent for a destructive amount of heat to threaten the Soul Society which does not require an explosion to take place. All of this taken into account, I do not believe we can go ahead with the proposed method to detirmine a solid rating which would be the foundation of scaling for dozens of profiles.

Arc7Kuroi said:
I vehemently disagree with this point and I'll explain why. The Sokyoku has the power of a million Zanpakuto and when it is used to execute a Soul Reaper, it's power is multiplied several dozen times. This statement tells us two things, the Sokyoku has a baseline power of a million Zanpakuto, and when used to kill a Soul Reaper it gets a massive power boost. The Sokyoku has two power levels, its base form (the Halberd) and the form it takes when executing a Soul Reaper (the Kiko-Oh). Now let's run through some deductive reasoning. We know the Sokyoku can amp itself to its most fatal/destructive when executing a Soul Reaper. We know that the villain is going to steal the Sokyoku during the execution and use it to annihilate the Seireitei and then Soul Society. So, let's ask the question, why does the villain need to wait for the Sokyoku to be used in execution of a Soul Reaper to steal it and blow shit up? Because the Sokyoku is at it's most lethal when executing a Soul Reaper. The Sokyoku not only has its seals removed to execute a Soul Reaper, but it amps itself several dozen times. If a character wants a weapon of mass destruction, they go for the most damaging weapon they can get, and the Sokyoku is at it's most damaging as Kiko-Oh.
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I think you make a good point here, but you've already provided an alternative explanation to "The power of the Sokyoku's true form when executing a prisoner is the same as when destroying the Seireitei."

The Sokyoku is only unsealed when a prisoner is due to be executed. If the fictitious enemy was going to steal and use the Sokyoku at all, it would have to be when Rukia is going to be executed. Speculating that "They'd steal it at this point because this is when it can destroy the Seireitei" is unnecessary if this is the only time they can steal it.

Arc7Kuroi said:
Now let's see if there's any support for the deductions I've made. When the Sokyoku is unsealed for execution it's power starts to drastically rise before transforming into its true form. The databook confirms that the Kiko-Oh has that "1 million Zanpakuto power" in the moment when Ichigo stops it, so it is objectively not weaker than it's "1 million Zanpakuto power" that can destroy Seireitei. The Kiko-Oh releases so much reiatsu that it is "overwhelming everything in existence", which while not a literal statement is by far indicative of the weapon being at its full power. The Kiko-Oh is also referred to as the true form of the Sokyoku as seen in the prior scans, a characters "true form" in battle shounen almost always referring to someone's peak form/max power, which is true especially for Bleach as Ichigo's strongest Zanpakuto is called his "True Zanpakuto" and Zangetsu's peak is called "True Zangetsu".
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I don't doubt that when the Sokyoku is in it's Firebird King phase, or the phoenix form, then that it when it could unleash its "full power". But the issue is in how the Sokyoku is used, not just what state it is in when it being used.

Ichigo in his "True Zanpakuto" form is in his most powerful form compared to before, but he can still unleash tiny casual Getsuga Tensho in this state and he can launch more powerful attacks than this if he wished. Same form, two different applications of his power with different levels of potency depending on what he is doing.

Also you say "It's 1 million Zanpakuto power" is what can destroy Seireitei, but I don't think it was stated that its base form of "1 million Zanpakuto" is what is capable of destroying Seireitei.

Arc7Kuroi said:
Now let's look at some more implications to support the initial deduction. The Takka (the execution stand) is stated to be capable of blocking an equal amount of power that the Sokyoku can release. So, if the Takka is designed to be able to withstand an equal amount of power that the Sokyoku can resist, it would logically have durability on par with Sokyoku's max power. As it wouldn't be able to withstand the Sokyoku, if the Sokyoku's power could destroy it. This matters because Ichigo is able to destroy the Takka. If Ichigo can destroy something that can withstand the power of the Sokyoku, Ichigo's power would logically surpass that of the Sokyoku.
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I can see how you could infer that the Execution Stand could block the Sokyoku at its max power, but technically the statement is just that the Execution Stand could block the destructive power of 1 million Zanpakuto.

Since it is only used to withstand the Sokyoku when the Sokyoku is executing prisoners, then if the Sokyoku's AP during executions is lesser than its AP when destroying the Seireitei or the Soul Society then there isn't much reaosn to scale the Execution Stand to the latter.

Arc7Kuroi said:
In our very own powerscaling page, under examples of viable powerscaling, it states the following: Character A performed a feat of destroying a City and has City level durability. Character B has overpowered, critically injured and is portrayed as physically superior to Character A. In this case, it is safe to assess that Character B has City level Attack Potency, despite not having feat of City destroying themselves. Now let me replace Character A and Character B with words from Bleach: The Sokyoku has performed a feat (is capable of performing said feat via statements) of destroying a Country and has Country level durability (the Takka). Ichigo has overpowered, critically injured and is portrayed as physically superior to the Sokyoku and Takka. In this case, it is safe to assess that Ichigo has Country level Attack Potency, despite not having feat of Country destroying themselves. You see how seamlessly this Ichigo-Sokyoku scaling fits in with the example of what viable powerscaling is? We assume a character (Sokyoku in this case) scales to their normal/full levels of power unless we are given a reason to assume otherwise (they're off guard, nerfed, weakened, etc.), as per the conclusions of this thread. As for the Sokyoku, we have no reason to assume it was nerfed at all, when it specifically is stated to amp itself beyond it's baseline power when executing a Soul Reaper (aka what it was doing when Ichigo blocked it).
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While you're right that we cannot label the Sokyoku as off-guard or nerfed, that is not quite the same thing as assuming that the normal usage of the Sokyoku is representative of its full power.

Consider please that the Sokyoku's stated upper limits involve the destruction of the Seireitei itself if not the entire Soul Society. Even if we did make the assumption that this expression of its full power would take the form of a colossal explosion extendings for hundreds of kilometers in every direction... Isn't that scenario a sufficient reason for the Sokyoku to be used with some restraint when executing prisoners? You're assuming that the Sokyoku is functionally no different than a bomb which has one expression of power - a detonation that is consistent and unchanging. This is not necessarily the case as we've been told that the Sokyoku can be used for other purposes such as for mass destruction instead of the specific killing of an individual Soul Reaper.

Now, I'm not saying it is impossible. It could be the case that the Sokyoku is releasing the same amount of power in either scenario and it is somehow containing the damage to just a single individual during executions. But it seems equally likely to me that the Sokyoku is just using a certain amount of power to execute a specific individual, and that if its target was a massively larger one (the entire city) then it could release more power to affect a larger target.

Still though, I can understand if you think it is more likely to be the former and that it will emit the same power no matter what the target is. My main issue at this point is with the method assumed for the calc.


I don't really have a concluding statement; I would just thank anyone that's read this much of my post which turned out longer than I expected, and recommend that the first few parts of my response be given the most attention.
 
I'll make a final post regarding my contentions with Damage's arguments later as his arguments against our assertion that the Sokyoku's full-power was released against Ichigo aren't satisfactory for me at all.

After that, i'm done with the thread.
 
I'll wait for Deceived's post and respond to any new arguments presented once I read through Damage's post (not going to bother responding to equal interp stuff since that would just be repeating past arguments).
 
Deceived3596 said:
I'll make a final post regarding my contentions with Damage's arguments later as his arguments against our assertion that the Sokyoku's full-power was released against Ichigo aren't satisfactory for me at all.

After that, i'm done with the thread.
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I understand that. In fact, I'm not trying to say I'm entirely opposed anymore to the notion that the Sokyoku's executing a prisoner equals its full power. I'm just making the point that I don't think it is solid.

The calc method is a bigger concern to me than that.
 
Ok, I’ll give my final stance on all of this

First thing’s first, I think the calculation for the Sokyoku is perfectly fine. The Sokyoku’s True Form is a giant fire bird that is supposed to release all of its power in one instance to destroy a Shinigami. It’s then compared to a thermal disruption. Like it’s pretty obvious to me that it’s power meant to be a singular released burst that destroys it’s target, so I think that’s the best way to calculate how it would destroy the Seireitei. As for the Yamamoto point, his statement is just about his passive heat that is radiating from his body. The Sokyoku is directing it's power and heat in one singular instance, which is what I believed would be used to destroy the Seireitei, meanwhile Yamamoto's statement is about the passive power he is extering just by having his Bankai active.

Alright, let’s move on to the second thing. I do agree that the Sokyoku’s True Form is the form in question that has the power to destroy the Seireitei. It’s said specifically that this True Form has the destructive power above the 1,000,000 Zanpaktou and goes out of its way to say that Aizen intends to use this Sokyoku to destroy NOT ONLY the Seireitei, but also the entire Soul Society. Now that’s a very big clarifier in my opinion. The True Form is explicitly said to increase its power dozens of times above its Base Form in order to kill a Shinigami and then it’s immediately followed up by saying Aizen intends to use the Sokyoku to destroy the Seireitei. That statement about Aizen using its power right after the author states how strong it is indicates to us that the same power used in execution is what Aizen intends to use to destroy Soul Society. It doesn’t make any sense for us to assume that it has varying levels of power in its True Form. Ocaam’s Razor would dictate that the True Form has all the power talked about in this one page. More than that, when the author says that Aizen intends to NOT ONLY destroy the Seireitei, that also gives us a big indicator of power. The usage of "not only” indicates to me that destroying the Seireitei is a low-balled baseline estimate of power for the Sokyoku’s True Form, meaning that should be the level of power it’s outputting AT LEAST. The statement is applying the Sokyoku would destroy more than the Seiretei, almost like the Seireitei being destroyed is small time stuff. So yeah, the True Form of the Sokyoku that is used during executions to me is the same power that can destroy the Seireitei at bare minimum.

Now as for Ichigo, let’s discuss his scaling to this Fire Chicken. When Shikai Ichigo actually does stop the Sokyoku, it is currently in the process of trying to execute Rukia, a Shinigami, with the same power that is explicitly able to destroy the Seireitei. So this means that Ichigo stopped that level of power rather casually. However I do understand the argument of “Well, there was no big explosion” or “Well he could have stopped it before it released its power”, but that is immediately made irrelevant right afterwards. The Takka is specifically designed to have a Durability that is able to tank the Sokyoku's Power, it makes little sense for it to not be capable of tanking the full power of the Sokyoku, as that full power was about to be used on Rukia right as she was being executed. And what does Ichigo do? Break through it like it’s nothing. It’s clear what the author’s intent is here. Kubo is telling us that Shikai Ichigo’s Power is relative to, if not above, that 1,000,000 Zanpaktou and Seireitei destroying power. So yeah, I agree that Shikai Ichigo should be scaling to the Sokyoku and it’s calc of destroying the Seireitei, I think that's entirely what Kubo is trying to tell us in this moment.

Now why would the Captains be shocked about this if they all have Sokyoku level power? I mean that’s pretty easy to understand. These are the top dogs of the Gotei 13. They have spent thousands of years building up their power to reach the levels they are at… And then this 15 year old Human who hasn’t even been a Shinigami for half a year just shows up out of nowhere and displays power on a relative level to Captains that reached this power only after thousands of years. I’d be ******* shook as well if I saw that happen. As for why Ukitake and Shunsui need a special tool to take down the Sokyoku, that can also be easily explained. We know what the Sokyoku’s Attack Potency is, that’s very clear, but who’s to say it’s Durability and Regeneration aren’t at a far higher level than it’s Attack Potency. It’s a weapon that is based on a Phoenix, so it would not surprise me if this thing was extremely hard to put down. I mean they could clash with and halt this thing's power for as long as they want, doesn’t mean they could ultimately put it down by themselves, hence why they need a special tool. So yeah, I don’t think anything the Captain’s said or do contradicts Shikai Ichigo being that strong.

So in conclusion, I do agree with Shikai Ichigo scaling to the Sokyoku and it’s power to destroy the Seireitei. I admit that it isn't 100% solid, but I think the narative is fairly clear on what that entire scene is meant to display for Ichigo and his current level of power
 
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DemonGodMitchAubin said:
The Sokyoku is directing it's power and heat in one singular instance, which is what would be used todestroy the Seireitei, meanwhile Yamamoto's statement is about the passive power he is extering just by having his Bankai active.
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With respect, what you've posted is not something that is supported by the evidence.

You specifically mention a "singular instance" which is what will destroy the Seireitei. No such scan or statement exists.

If your conclusion that a ground-based explosion is the most accurate method of calcing the Sokyoku, and you're basing that conclusion on the belief that the Sokyoku will instantly destroy the Seireitei, then that belief has to be based on something.

A simple statement for "The Seireitei would be destroyed" does not prove that.

I'm only responding to this specific point in Mitch's post because this bit is particularly jarring to me. I don't want to see the thread concluded based on something that is unsupported.
 
Damage3245 said:
With respect, what you've posted is not something that is supported by the evidence.

You specifically mention a "singular instance" which is what will destroy the Seireitei. No such scan or statement exists.

If your conclusion that a ground-based explosion is the most accurate method of calcing the Sokyoku, and you're basing that conclusion on the belief that the Sokyoku will instantly destroy the Seireitei, then that belief has to be based on something.

A simple statement for "The Seireitei would be destroyed" does not prove that.

I'm only responding to this specific point in Mitch's post because this bit is particularly jarring to me. I don't want to see the thread concluded based on something that is unsupported.
Click to expand...
Mitch isn't claiming that it's stated verbatim that "Sokyoku destroys X in 1 hit", Mitch explained that based on the evidence and Occam's Razor, he believes that is the most likely interpretation. He's not making a claim unsubstantiated, he explained why he thinks this in his post.
 
Damage3245 said:
I understand that. In fact, I'm not trying to say I'm entirely opposed anymore to the notion that the Sokyoku's executing a prisoner equals its full power. I'm just making the point that I don't think it is solid.
Click to expand...
Why would this not be the case? Also it should still be able to be tanked by the scaffold
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Mitch isn't claiming that it's stated verbatim that "Sokyoku destroys X in 1 hit", Mitch explained that based on the evidence and Occam's Razor, he believes that is the most likely interpretation. He's not making a claim unsubstantiated, he explained why he thinks this in his post.
Click to expand...
This. Based on the evidence displayed, Occam’s Razor would lead to this conclusion, one which I myself agree with
 
What is the staff vote tally right now? Did AKM generally disagree with the thread, or he only shared that the calculation is wrong?
 
ImmortalDread said:
What is the staff vote tally right now? Did AKM generally disagree with the thread, or he only shared that the calculation is wrong?
Click to expand...
Check the staff tally in the OP, I say where they stand and what they agree with. AKM made a one off message FRAing damage saying the calc is wrong and dipped yeah
 
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