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You bite the pillow everytime Damage's name is brought up.Ima phone in Damage to smack y’all for derailing
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You bite the pillow everytime Damage's name is brought up.Ima phone in Damage to smack y’all for derailing
Don'tYeah... No more derailing guys, please.
I'm working on a response to the thread to be made soon(ish).
We actually have multiple due reasons to assume the Sokyoku was at full power. First, the databooks refer to Kiko-Oh (the fire bird transformation) as the Sokyoku’s true form, hyping it up with the hyperbolic statement “Kiko-Oh’s spiritual pressure overwhelms everything in existence”. Given that the Sokyoku transformed into its true/final form, it’s much safer to assume it was at full power. It would be like if Ichigo went Bankai and we questioned if that was his Zanpakuto’s full power.
Second, the trigger for the Sokyoku to reach maximum power is to execute a Shinigami, as it is stated that when executing a Shinigami it’s power is magnified several dozen times. This informs us that the Sokyoku has 2 states, a base halberd state, and an enhanced 36-48x released state. Given that it transformed to execute Rukia, it should be clear that it was using its fully amped power.
Third and finally, Aizen states that you need a high thermal intensity to evaporate a soul. Meaning that the Sokyoku’s high thermal energy was required to evaporate Rukia’s soul and retrieve the Sokyoku. But don’t confuse this with the Sokyoku having a higher power level than Aizen, that’s not what’s stated, it’s the Sokyoku’s intense heat that was required, the only Captain with a heat oriented ability is Yama. The implication from Aizen’s letter is that this fake villain would utilize the execution to release the Sokyoku’s true power and then use that to destroy Seireitei and eventually Soul Society. So there is a plethora of evidence to support the notion that the Kiko-Oh, the true form of the Sokyoku, is it’s full power.
The reason we assume it’s the Sokyoku’s full power (Kiko-Oh) that would destroy Seireitei is twofold. One, it’s heavily implied that the fake villain would use the execution to release the Sokyoku’s true form as I mentioned above. And two, it’s the safest interpretation to say it’s the Sokyoku’s full power that has the capability to do so.
So the reason the Seireitei destruction is used and not the Soul Society destruction has a lot to do with how generous we can or should be with interpretations. Just as is with any world busting statement, we need to consider things like context. For the same reason we don’t take WB’s statement of “he can destroy the world” or “Aizen’s Hollow army can crush the world” as inherent High 6-A/5-B statements, we cannot do the same with the Sokyoku.
For example, as the Sokyoku is now, 6-B, it would take ~2 hours of continuous Sokyoku attacks to surface wipe the planet, aka it could reasonably do so overtime.
Or, while this is certainly a low generosity interpretation imo, as you and AKM brought up in the original 5-B Bleach master thread, destroying the world doesn’t inherently have to be destroying the planet. There’s plenty of ways to look at destroying the Soul Society as not inherently one shotting the planet. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there simply isn’t any evidence to claim such a high interpretation for the Sokyoku over the much safer interpretations. Finally, my interpretation of the Sokyoku is much more consistent with the story itself, as planet/world busting isn’t a narrative power point until Deicide and SAFWY. So, it’s not an attempt to hide an outlier, it’s just there’s no feasible argument to say the Sokyoku should be High 6-A/5-B over 6-B, unless you’re being very generous.
So I don’t think this is a bad point per se, but I don’t think your interpretation of it is correct. This scene highlight Soi-Fon’s own personal belief. Soi-Fon finds it unlikely that a single Zanpakuto could block the Sokyoku. Which would be indicative of her own insecurity in her power, and not that she thinks it’s impossible for any Captain to do so, she never mentions the other Captains. The reason I think this is for two reasons: first we know Soi-Fon has an inferiority complex as scene with her bout with Yoruichi and second she’s the only Captain with absolutely 0 scaling to the Sokyoku through feats or stats. Thus it would be more consistent to argue that her disbelief is a reflection of her own personal doubts and not a reflection of the entire Gotei 13’s power.
Now on to the point of “Soi-Fon should know Ichigo’s power and is still in disbelief”. First, Ichigo appeared out of no where to block the Sokyoku, so Soi-Fon could have not sensed Ichigo yet. Also, she’s in clear shock and disbelief already after witnessing the feat happen, so it’s unlikely she took the time to calmly analyze the situation. We see this all the time in Shounen, where a character performs some crazy feat and another character is like “what impossible”. Soi-Fon’s own disbelief is not infallible evidence of Ichigo’s inability to be “Sokyoku-level”. Additionally, with so many Captains around it may be tough to distinguish a single persons spiritual pressure from the sea of superior people (like Yama) so quickly. So, for these reasons I believe it is far more consistent to interpret this as Soi-Fon’s own blatant disbelief rather than an objective statement implying the Captain’s aren’t Sokyoku level.
Even if that interpretation was granted for Soi-Fon, it’s provably false. Because in SAFWY we find out that Azashiro far surpasses the Sokyoku, Yama scales above Aza, Yama’s power level doesn’t change throughout the series. Soi-Fon would be wrong.
Regarding a few of the calcs you’ve cited. The Lanza calc uses an old and outdated Las Noches pixel scale size with a height of 3 km. Our current Las Noches would be 10s of km tall in comparison. So that calc is null and I’ve seen various other calcs place the Lanza anywhere from country to multi continental.
Now regarding the Cero Oscuras calc (which the Cero calc derived from). I brought this up in the OP, but Ulq’s CO doesn’t completely hit Las Noches, only part of the CO hits LN. So that calc in and of it self is inherently less than what it’s “true value” would be. We just cannot realistically find it’s true value because we only see what a portion of the CO hitting LN could do. The databooks even state the CO could destroy all of LN, supporting the notion that it is in fact higher than what we can calc it to be. Lastly, that GRC calc should be 6-A using vaporization but I won’t derail this thread with that debate. So, at best 1 out of those 4 calcs can support your claim.
Thus using the objectively less than full yield lowballs for Ulq’s calcs do not provide a solid basis to claim the Sokyoku calc is inconsistent with Ulq’s calcs. As those calcs are inherently lowballed below their full potential. I’d also disagree about the lack of supporting calcs. A casual Ulq performing a 6-B feat with merely a fraction of his Cero blast is well within the realms of support, considering it should be far higher. Then later on we got stronger characters performing consistent 6-A/High 6-A feats (Gremmy’s meteor will be High 6-A once I implement the accepted Seireitei size changes). This shows a clear progression of power that implies consistency.
Thanks. Apologies for the delay in posting.I will get back to you on that one
Down bad like crazy.Two chads are racing each other. A true chad war
Down bad like crazy.
Yeah no worries I gotchuThanks. Apologies for the delay in posting.
And for reference, I'm not trying to say that you're objectively wrong in your arguments. Just that the evidence that you've put forward doesn't convince me that it is the most correct direction for the scaling.
Why are you making the assumption it isn't the Sokyoku's "true/full power" when literally everything points to it being its true/full power?I don't see how you get "full power" from that. Nowhere is it stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is its full power, or that executing a prisoner is accomplished with its full power.
That is not in dispute.It's directly stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is the fire phoenix we see.
That is not in dispute.That fire phoenix state directly amplifies the Sokyoku's based power of one million zanpaktous dozens of times over.
Arc7 called that a "hype statement" and it's also patently false since Shikai Ichigo casually blocked it, and there's around ten other guys in the Gotei 13 who are equally capable of such a feat it seems.It's the form which is stated capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".
I did not dispute that it is within its capability; what I don't see evidence for is that the attack against Rukia which Ichigo blocked is also able to destroy the Seireitei in a single attack. There is no direct evidence this is the "innate power level" that is unleashed every time the Sokyoku is used.The Sokyoku itself, in relation to its "true form" or base is capable of destroying the Seireitei itself. It's quite literally talking about the innate power level which the Sokyoku has when used.
To add on to this, which I’ll go more in depth in later, our own powerscaling page and the conclusions of this thread indicate that unless we are given due doubt we are to assume a character (or weapon here) is at full power. I’ll go into depth about why I believe there’s no reason to assume the execution weapon was held back when I type up my actual response.Why are you making the assumption it isn't the Sokyoku's "true/full power" when literally everything points to it being its true/full power?
Everything (and i mean everything) points to the "true form" being the Sokyoku's full power, using needless assumptions and whataboutisms doesn't debunk the multiple pieces of evidence which heavily imply the Sokyoku's "true power" is active while it's in its "true form".
- It's directly stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is the fire phoenix we see.
- That fire phoenix state directly amplifies the Sokyoku's based power of one million zanpaktous dozens of times over.
- It's the form which is stated capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".
- The Sokyoku itself, in relation to its "true form" or base is capable of destroying the Seireitei itself. It's quite literally talking about the innate power level which the Sokyoku has when used.
It's an "hype statement" in the context of it being capable of "overwhelming everything in existence", not the implication of it being the Sokyoku's full power, don't misinterpret what Arc meant by that.Arc7 called that a "hype statement" and it's also patently false since Shikai Ichigo casually blocked it, and there's around ten other guys in the Gotei 13 who are equally capable of such a feat it seems.
That's just incredulity on your part, there's direct implications which prove it was the Sokyoku's full power, you haven't addressed these implications in a logical manner, you've only used fallacious reasoning and unneeded assumptions which aren't supported by the text at all.I did not dispute that it is within its capability; what I don't see evidence for is that the attack against Rukia which Ichigo blocked is also able to destroy the Seireitei in a single attack. There is no direct evidence this is the "innate power level" that is unleashed every time the Sokyoku is used.
The same reasoning for why we're not considering Ichigo's feat of blocking it to be High 6-A is the same reason why I'm not okay with just declaring it as 6-B either.That's just incredulity on your part, there's direct implications which prove it was the Sokyoku's full power, you haven't addressed these implications in a logical manner, you've only used fallacious reasoning and unneeded assumptions which aren't supported by the text at all.
No? we have actual logical reasons why we don't assume the feat being High 6-A, which aren't unneeded assumptions, they're ones which are supported by the text itself and the proceeding arcs as well. We would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume High 6-A comparative to 6-B given the evidence we have, this isn't the same as your assertion Damage.The same reasoning for why we're not considering Ichigo's feat of blocking it to be High 6-A is the same reason why I'm not okay with just declaring it as 6-B either.
I admit I just didn't fully get your point there. Who said anything about that statement being the Sokyoku's full power?No? we have actual logical reasons why we don't assume the feat being High 6-A, which aren't unneeded assumptions, they're ones which are supported by the text itself and the proceeding arcs as well. We would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume High 6-A comparative to 6-B given the evidence we have, this isn't the same as your assertion Damage.
You also didn't address my argument against your misinterpretation of Arc's words. I'm guessing you're conceding on that point?
I admit I just didn't fully get your point there. Who said anything about that statement being the Sokyoku's full power?
No, it's okay, I think I get what you mean.
I said you're misunderstanding what Arc meant by "hype statement", when he's referencing the "hype statement" he's talking about the "overwhelming everything in existence" part, as in it isn't actually capable of "overwhelming everything in existence". Not the implication that the statement makes about the Sokyoku's true power being used while it's in its "true form", as that's the form which has power that's capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".
If you still don't understand what i meant then i could possibly try to find another way to explain it to you.
Yeah I just meant that once it’s released into its true form it gains the immense power “to overwhelm everything in existence”, not that it literally can overwhelm the stars, the realms, the universe, etc etc etc. Just that it’s true form released so much power that it warranted that biblical levels of hyperbole to demonstrate its power. Which imo adds consistency to it being at full power, which I’ll get into more in depth with a full response, hopefully this clears up any surface level confusion.
I said you're misunderstanding what Arc meant by "hype statement", when he's referencing the "hype statement" he's talking about the "overwhelming everything in existence" part, as in it isn't actually capable of "overwhelming everything in existence". Not the implication that the statement makes about the Sokyoku's true power being used while it's in its "true form", as that's the form which has power that's capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".
If you still don't understand what i meant then i could possibly try to find another way to explain it to you.
Ichigo breaking the Takka/extinction stand would scale him to the sokyoku's full power because it's strong enough to block itI don't see how you get "full power" from that. Nowhere is it stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is its full power, or that executing a prisoner is accomplished with its full power.
Reio... if I'm not in agreement with the first part of this scaling (Which is that the Sokyoku's default AP = 6-B), then the follow-up part (Which is that the Takka can withstand 6-B attacks) is also something that I'm not going to be on board with.Ichigo breaking the Takka/extinction stand would scale him to the sokyoku's full power because it's strong enough to block it
I guess you can scale baseline Zanpakuto's to fodder hollows which are currently scaled to 9-A (given the fact fodder shinigami can damage and kill fodder hollows), then multiply the 9-A value by a million (in actuality should be dozens of times above a million because Ichigo blocked the bird rather than the baseline Sokyoku spear)Is there like a low end base level for Zanpakuto which could be used instead of the "boom the Seireitei" portion?
Kiko-Oh = several dozen (36-48) times the Halberd > Halberd = 1 million ZanpakutoThrow me as neutral, leaning for disagreeing
Question
I'd be fine with a low end of "a million zanpakuto" for Ichigo's scaling
Is there like a low end base level for Zanpakuto which could be used instead of the "boom the Seireitei" portion?
I was thinking this, if we take what Deceived said and multiply the average 9-A by say 45 million,Is there like a low end base level for Zanpakuto which could be used instead of the "boom the Seireitei" portion?
It'd be 36 million*, and that low end hollow rating would be multipliedI was thinking this, if we take what Deceived said and multiply the average 9-A by say 45 million,
Low End: 23896728.6 joules or 0.005711455210325 tons of TNT, which is Small Building Level or 9-A.
23896728.6 * 45,000,000 = 257015.4875717 tons of tnt. its just high 7-C.
Understood, sorry for the slight derailmentYeah at that point we’d just use Toshiro’s feat, but the Sokyoku scaling hasn’t been debunked yet and I still plan on addressing Damage.
Take your time. I'm heading offline for tonight anyway.Yeah at that point we’d just use Toshiro’s feat, but the Sokyoku scaling hasn’t been debunked yet and I still plan on addressing Damage.
Understood, but what is the current reason for why you think the Sokyoku is 6-B when executing prisoners, and that Ichigo is therefore 6-B?Idk why I’m unfollowed from the thread but the counters are definitely not sufficient to me so I still agree with the OP
Given the fact Clover liked my message here and Arc's message here, those are probably the reasons why he thinks that way.Understood, but what is the current reason for why you think the Sokyoku is 6-B when executing prisoners, and that Ichigo is therefore 6-B?
It definitely doesn't, your claim requires more assumptions comparative to our claim given the evidence tbh, but we already know we both disagree with each other on that claim.As far as I can tell, it requires some very generous interpretations to make that the case.
The only claim I've made is not being convinced by the proposed evidence.Given the fact Clover liked my message here, those are probably the reasons why he thinks that way.
It definitely doesn't, your claim requires more assumptions comparative to our claim given the evidence tbh, but we already know we both disagree with each other on that claim.
That's definitely not your only claim, you've claimed we would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume Sokyoku's fullpower was released against Ichigo. Which isn't true and I've proven why it isn't true. Your refutations aren't satisfactory.The only claim I've made is not being convinced by the proposed evidence.
I haven't proposed any alternative rating or scaling for Ichigo at this time.
Arguing the Sokyoku's phoenix transformation, which is directly stated its "true form", which amplifies the base power of the Sokyoku by dozens of time over, which releases power which is hyped up being capable of "overwhelming everything in existence", and is finally implied then when it amplifies its power it's capable of destroying the Seireitei to SS, isn't the Sokyoku's "full power" is asinine in my honest opinion.