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Arc Comes Home With The Milk [Bleach Soul Society Arc Captain Class Scaling]

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Hmmmm, I'm still on the fence, but I'm leaning towards still agreeing with the Sogyoku Scaling due to Arc's latest reasoning at the current moment
 
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We actually have multiple due reasons to assume the Sokyoku was at full power. First, the databooks refer to Kiko-Oh (the fire bird transformation) as the Sokyoku’s true form, hyping it up with the hyperbolic statement “Kiko-Oh’s spiritual pressure overwhelms everything in existence”. Given that the Sokyoku transformed into its true/final form, it’s much safer to assume it was at full power. It would be like if Ichigo went Bankai and we questioned if that was his Zanpakuto’s full power.

I don't see how you get "full power" from that. Nowhere is it stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is its full power, or that executing a prisoner is accomplished with its full power.

Also, just because a character could go into Bankai does not make every attack their 'full power'. There is a difference between Ichigo just swinging his sword and Ichigo imbuing Getsuga Tensho into his sword for example. Both are done in Ichigo's "full power" form, but each are different levels of power that are within his capability.

Second, the trigger for the Sokyoku to reach maximum power is to execute a Shinigami, as it is stated that when executing a Shinigami it’s power is magnified several dozen times. This informs us that the Sokyoku has 2 states, a base halberd state, and an enhanced 36-48x released state. Given that it transformed to execute Rukia, it should be clear that it was using its fully amped power.

We don't have an AP value for the "base halberd state" so the Sokyoku being amped dozens of times doesn't tell us anything concrete about the amount of power that it is emitting. It also doesn't confirm that is the most it can be amped either, so the we cannot concretely state that the Sokyoku cannot go any higher than that.

Third and finally, Aizen states that you need a high thermal intensity to evaporate a soul. Meaning that the Sokyoku’s high thermal energy was required to evaporate Rukia’s soul and retrieve the Sokyoku. But don’t confuse this with the Sokyoku having a higher power level than Aizen, that’s not what’s stated, it’s the Sokyoku’s intense heat that was required, the only Captain with a heat oriented ability is Yama. The implication from Aizen’s letter is that this fake villain would utilize the execution to release the Sokyoku’s true power and then use that to destroy Seireitei and eventually Soul Society. So there is a plethora of evidence to support the notion that the Kiko-Oh, the true form of the Sokyoku, is it’s full power.

It seems to me that you're stating with the baseline assumption that the Sokyoku's "true form" will result in the Sokyoku's full power being used no matter what the attack is that is unleashed by it, whether it by destroying the entire Seireitei in a single shot, or executing a single prisoner. Since both are presumably done with the Sokyoku's "true form", both are being considered equal in potency.

But I don't think there's anything actually proving that to be the case, though I see where you're coming from with the argument. Just because two things are both within the Sokyoku's capability does not mean that both require the same Attack Potency. This "plethora of evidence" that you're talking about just looks circumstantial; the execution is done with the Sokyoku's true form, it is assumed that the destruction of the Seireitei is done with the Sokyoku's true form, therefore both are assumedly the same... But that's not an overwhelming amount of evidence, that's just some assumptions about how this fictional plan to destroy the Seireitei/Soul Society would work.

The reason we assume it’s the Sokyoku’s full power (Kiko-Oh) that would destroy Seireitei is twofold. One, it’s heavily implied that the fake villain would use the execution to release the Sokyoku’s true form as I mentioned above. And two, it’s the safest interpretation to say it’s the Sokyoku’s full power that has the capability to do so.

Personally I don't see the implication that the Sokyoku's true form is what is directly connected to the destruction of the Seireitei. Or more specifically, that whether or not the Sokyoku's true form is required to destroy the Seireitei/Soul Society, that doesn't prove that the execution of prisoners would have the same Attack Potency.

That's the biggest hangup I have with the proposed scaling here. I know it probably seems completely fine to you, but I'm just trying to explain how I don't see the evidence to support it like you do.

So the reason the Seireitei destruction is used and not the Soul Society destruction has a lot to do with how generous we can or should be with interpretations. Just as is with any world busting statement, we need to consider things like context. For the same reason we don’t take WB’s statement of “he can destroy the world” or “Aizen’s Hollow army can crush the world” as inherent High 6-A/5-B statements, we cannot do the same with the Sokyoku.

I agree, but it's strange to me that though you acknowledge that the Sokyoku statements can't be taken as High 6-A/5-B at face value, there is seemingly no issue with taking it as being 6-B at face value either.

For example, as the Sokyoku is now, 6-B, it would take ~2 hours of continuous Sokyoku attacks to surface wipe the planet, aka it could reasonably do so overtime.

The same thing could apply the statement for the destruction of the Seireitei, as far as I can tell.

If this fictitious enemy could destroy the Soul Society with the Sokyoku over an extended period of time, then the same thing would apply to the destruction of the Seireitei.

Or, while this is certainly a low generosity interpretation imo, as you and AKM brought up in the original 5-B Bleach master thread, destroying the world doesn’t inherently have to be destroying the planet. There’s plenty of ways to look at destroying the Soul Society as not inherently one shotting the planet. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there simply isn’t any evidence to claim such a high interpretation for the Sokyoku over the much safer interpretations. Finally, my interpretation of the Sokyoku is much more consistent with the story itself, as planet/world busting isn’t a narrative power point until Deicide and SAFWY. So, it’s not an attempt to hide an outlier, it’s just there’s no feasible argument to say the Sokyoku should be High 6-A/5-B over 6-B, unless you’re being very generous.

I agree at least that the Sokyoku should not be considered that powerful unless you're being very generous. But the same issue is present, to me, for considering it to be 6-B.

So I don’t think this is a bad point per se, but I don’t think your interpretation of it is correct. This scene highlight Soi-Fon’s own personal belief. Soi-Fon finds it unlikely that a single Zanpakuto could block the Sokyoku. Which would be indicative of her own insecurity in her power, and not that she thinks it’s impossible for any Captain to do so, she never mentions the other Captains. The reason I think this is for two reasons: first we know Soi-Fon has an inferiority complex as scene with her bout with Yoruichi and second she’s the only Captain with absolutely 0 scaling to the Sokyoku through feats or stats. Thus it would be more consistent to argue that her disbelief is a reflection of her own personal doubts and not a reflection of the entire Gotei 13’s power.

She doesn't explicitly mention other Captains but she does specify on a "single Zankaputo blocking 1 million Zanpakuto". Her statement is a general one. Though I agree that it does say more about her than it does for others.

Now on to the point of “Soi-Fon should know Ichigo’s power and is still in disbelief”. First, Ichigo appeared out of no where to block the Sokyoku, so Soi-Fon could have not sensed Ichigo yet. Also, she’s in clear shock and disbelief already after witnessing the feat happen, so it’s unlikely she took the time to calmly analyze the situation. We see this all the time in Shounen, where a character performs some crazy feat and another character is like “what impossible”. Soi-Fon’s own disbelief is not infallible evidence of Ichigo’s inability to be “Sokyoku-level”. Additionally, with so many Captains around it may be tough to distinguish a single persons spiritual pressure from the sea of superior people (like Yama) so quickly. So, for these reasons I believe it is far more consistent to interpret this as Soi-Fon’s own blatant disbelief rather than an objective statement implying the Captain’s aren’t Sokyoku level.

Even if that interpretation was granted for Soi-Fon, it’s provably false. Because in SAFWY we find out that Azashiro far surpasses the Sokyoku, Yama scales above Aza, Yama’s power level doesn’t change throughout the series. Soi-Fon would be wrong.

I think these are fair points. Soi-Fon's own doubt is not the primary reason why I'm against this; just that it added doubt towards Ichigo in particular being considered equals (or casually superior) to something that has spiritual pressure that can "overwhelm everything" and should be considered impossible to stop.

Regarding a few of the calcs you’ve cited. The Lanza calc uses an old and outdated Las Noches pixel scale size with a height of 3 km. Our current Las Noches would be 10s of km tall in comparison. So that calc is null and I’ve seen various other calcs place the Lanza anywhere from country to multi continental.

I think it's a bit questionable for the calc to still be listed on the verse page if it is so inaccurate.

Now regarding the Cero Oscuras calc (which the Cero calc derived from). I brought this up in the OP, but Ulq’s CO doesn’t completely hit Las Noches, only part of the CO hits LN. So that calc in and of it self is inherently less than what it’s “true value” would be. We just cannot realistically find it’s true value because we only see what a portion of the CO hitting LN could do. The databooks even state the CO could destroy all of LN, supporting the notion that it is in fact higher than what we can calc it to be. Lastly, that GRC calc should be 6-A using vaporization 🗿 but I won’t derail this thread with that debate. So, at best 1 out of those 4 calcs can support your claim.

These calcs nonetheless form the basis of the current scaling and their existence is why the proposed Sokyoku calc is not an outlier. Either they're valid or they're not; if they're not valid then it seems like there really are no supporting feats for many of the characters being as strong as they are proposed to be in the Soul Society arc.

Thus using the objectively less than full yield lowballs for Ulq’s calcs do not provide a solid basis to claim the Sokyoku calc is inconsistent with Ulq’s calcs. As those calcs are inherently lowballed below their full potential. I’d also disagree about the lack of supporting calcs. A casual Ulq performing a 6-B feat with merely a fraction of his Cero blast is well within the realms of support, considering it should be far higher. Then later on we got stronger characters performing consistent 6-A/High 6-A feats (Gremmy’s meteor will be High 6-A once I implement the accepted Seireitei size changes). This shows a clear progression of power that implies consistency.

I wouldn't say that the God Tiers having consistent 6-A/High 6-A feats much later on is a strong showing of consistency for the Soul Society arc ratings. Characters like Toshiro have feats that are in the 7-A range in the Soul Society arc too. If you look at the feats of the majority of the characters in the Soul Society arc, they do fall incredibly short of this ceiling set by the Sokyoku calc. This is less important the main scaling points above, but the lack of support for the characters in this arc does make the feat seem more anomolous than a concrete foundation for the scaling.
 
I will get back to you on that one 😎
Thanks. Apologies for the delay in posting.

And for reference, I'm not trying to say that you're objectively wrong in your arguments. Just that the evidence that you've put forward doesn't convince me that it is the most correct direction for the scaling.
 
Thanks. Apologies for the delay in posting.

And for reference, I'm not trying to say that you're objectively wrong in your arguments. Just that the evidence that you've put forward doesn't convince me that it is the most correct direction for the scaling.
Yeah no worries 👌 I gotchu
 
I don't see how you get "full power" from that. Nowhere is it stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is its full power, or that executing a prisoner is accomplished with its full power.
Why are you making the assumption it isn't the Sokyoku's "true/full power" when literally everything points to it being its true/full power?
  1. It's directly stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is the fire phoenix we see.
  2. That fire phoenix state directly amplifies the Sokyoku's based power of one million zanpaktous dozens of times over.
  3. It's the form which is stated capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".
  4. The Sokyoku itself, in relation to its "true form" or base is capable of destroying the Seireitei itself. It's quite literally talking about the innate power level which the Sokyoku has when used.
Everything (and i mean everything) points to the "true form" being the Sokyoku's full power, using needless assumptions and whataboutisms doesn't debunk the multiple pieces of evidence which heavily imply the Sokyoku's "true power" is active while it's in its "true form".

You'd require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume otherwise.
 
It's directly stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is the fire phoenix we see.
That is not in dispute.

That is not in dispute.

It's the form which is stated capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".
Arc7 called that a "hype statement" and it's also patently false since Shikai Ichigo casually blocked it, and there's around ten other guys in the Gotei 13 who are equally capable of such a feat it seems.

The Sokyoku itself, in relation to its "true form" or base is capable of destroying the Seireitei itself. It's quite literally talking about the innate power level which the Sokyoku has when used.
I did not dispute that it is within its capability; what I don't see evidence for is that the attack against Rukia which Ichigo blocked is also able to destroy the Seireitei in a single attack. There is no direct evidence this is the "innate power level" that is unleashed every time the Sokyoku is used.
 
Why are you making the assumption it isn't the Sokyoku's "true/full power" when literally everything points to it being its true/full power?
  1. It's directly stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is the fire phoenix we see.
  2. That fire phoenix state directly amplifies the Sokyoku's based power of one million zanpaktous dozens of times over.
  3. It's the form which is stated capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".
  4. The Sokyoku itself, in relation to its "true form" or base is capable of destroying the Seireitei itself. It's quite literally talking about the innate power level which the Sokyoku has when used.
Everything (and i mean everything) points to the "true form" being the Sokyoku's full power, using needless assumptions and whataboutisms doesn't debunk the multiple pieces of evidence which heavily imply the Sokyoku's "true power" is active while it's in its "true form".
To add on to this, which I’ll go more in depth in later, our own powerscaling page and the conclusions of this thread indicate that unless we are given due doubt we are to assume a character (or weapon here) is at full power. I’ll go into depth about why I believe there’s no reason to assume the execution weapon was held back when I type up my actual response.
 
Arc7 called that a "hype statement" and it's also patently false since Shikai Ichigo casually blocked it, and there's around ten other guys in the Gotei 13 who are equally capable of such a feat it seems.
It's an "hype statement" in the context of it being capable of "overwhelming everything in existence", not the implication of it being the Sokyoku's full power, don't misinterpret what Arc meant by that.

I did not dispute that it is within its capability; what I don't see evidence for is that the attack against Rukia which Ichigo blocked is also able to destroy the Seireitei in a single attack. There is no direct evidence this is the "innate power level" that is unleashed every time the Sokyoku is used.
That's just incredulity on your part, there's direct implications which prove it was the Sokyoku's full power, you haven't addressed these implications in a logical manner, you've only used fallacious reasoning and unneeded assumptions which aren't supported by the text at all.
 
That's just incredulity on your part, there's direct implications which prove it was the Sokyoku's full power, you haven't addressed these implications in a logical manner, you've only used fallacious reasoning and unneeded assumptions which aren't supported by the text at all.
The same reasoning for why we're not considering Ichigo's feat of blocking it to be High 6-A is the same reason why I'm not okay with just declaring it as 6-B either.
 
The same reasoning for why we're not considering Ichigo's feat of blocking it to be High 6-A is the same reason why I'm not okay with just declaring it as 6-B either.
No? we have actual logical reasons why we don't assume the feat being High 6-A, which aren't unneeded assumptions, they're ones which are supported by the text itself and the proceeding arcs as well. We would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume High 6-A comparative to 6-B given the evidence we have, this isn't the same as your assertion Damage.

You also didn't address my argument against your misinterpretation of Arc's words. I'm guessing you're conceding on that point?
 
No? we have actual logical reasons why we don't assume the feat being High 6-A, which aren't unneeded assumptions, they're ones which are supported by the text itself and the proceeding arcs as well. We would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume High 6-A comparative to 6-B given the evidence we have, this isn't the same as your assertion Damage.

You also didn't address my argument against your misinterpretation of Arc's words. I'm guessing you're conceding on that point?
I admit I just didn't fully get your point there. Who said anything about that statement being the Sokyoku's full power?
 
I admit I just didn't fully get your point there. Who said anything about that statement being the Sokyoku's full power?
🗿

I said you're misunderstanding what Arc meant by "hype statement", when he's calling the statement a "hype statement" he's talking about the "overwhelming everything in existence" part, as in it isn't actually capable of "overwhelming everything in existence". Not the implication that the statement makes about the Sokyoku's true power being used while it's in its "true form", as that's the form which has power that's capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".

If you still don't understand what i meant then i could possibly try to find another way to explain it to you.
 
🗿

I said you're misunderstanding what Arc meant by "hype statement", when he's referencing the "hype statement" he's talking about the "overwhelming everything in existence" part, as in it isn't actually capable of "overwhelming everything in existence". Not the implication that the statement makes about the Sokyoku's true power being used while it's in its "true form", as that's the form which has power that's capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".

If you still don't understand what i meant then i could possibly try to find another way to explain it to you.
No, it's okay, I think I get what you mean.

I'm not in disagreement with Arc7 on that statement.
 
🗿

I said you're misunderstanding what Arc meant by "hype statement", when he's referencing the "hype statement" he's talking about the "overwhelming everything in existence" part, as in it isn't actually capable of "overwhelming everything in existence". Not the implication that the statement makes about the Sokyoku's true power being used while it's in its "true form", as that's the form which has power that's capable of "overwhelming everything in existence".

If you still don't understand what i meant then i could possibly try to find another way to explain it to you.
Yeah I just meant that once it’s released into its true form it gains the immense power “to overwhelm everything in existence”, not that it literally can overwhelm the stars, the realms, the universe, etc etc etc. Just that it’s true form released so much power that it warranted that biblical levels of hyperbole to demonstrate its power. Which imo adds consistency to it being at full power, which I’ll get into more in depth with a full response, hopefully this clears up any surface level confusion.
 
I don't see how you get "full power" from that. Nowhere is it stated that the Sokyoku's "true form" is its full power, or that executing a prisoner is accomplished with its full power.
Ichigo breaking the Takka/extinction stand would scale him to the sokyoku's full power because it's strong enough to block it
 
Ichigo breaking the Takka/extinction stand would scale him to the sokyoku's full power because it's strong enough to block it
Reio... if I'm not in agreement with the first part of this scaling (Which is that the Sokyoku's default AP = 6-B), then the follow-up part (Which is that the Takka can withstand 6-B attacks) is also something that I'm not going to be on board with.
 
Throw me as neutral, leaning for disagreeing

Question

I'd be fine with a low end of "a million zanpakuto" for Ichigo's scaling

Is there like a low end base level for Zanpakuto which could be used instead of the "boom the Seireitei" portion?
 
Is there like a low end base level for Zanpakuto which could be used instead of the "boom the Seireitei" portion?
I guess you can scale baseline Zanpakuto's to fodder hollows which are currently scaled to 9-A (given the fact fodder shinigami can damage and kill fodder hollows), then multiply the 9-A value by a million (in actuality should be dozens of times above a million because Ichigo blocked the bird rather than the baseline Sokyoku spear)
 
Throw me as neutral, leaning for disagreeing

Question

I'd be fine with a low end of "a million zanpakuto" for Ichigo's scaling

Is there like a low end base level for Zanpakuto which could be used instead of the "boom the Seireitei" portion?
Kiko-Oh = several dozen (36-48) times the Halberd > Halberd = 1 million Zanpakuto
 
Yeah at that point we’d just use Toshiro’s feat, but the Sokyoku scaling hasn’t been debunked yet and I still plan on addressing Damage.
 
Thanks guys, as a fair warning, and honestly this’ll probably benefit you Damage in your recovery, but I am traveling over the weekend (like 4 days so a long weekend). So, I won’t be Uber frequent in my responses, maybe once a day, but that pace doesn’t seem like it’s gonna create too many issues atm, just wanted to give y’all a heads up.
 
Idk why I’m unfollowed from the thread but the counters are definitely not sufficient to me so I still agree with the OP
Understood, but what is the current reason for why you think the Sokyoku is 6-B when executing prisoners, and that Ichigo is therefore 6-B?

As far as I can tell, it requires some very generous interpretations to make that the case.
 
Understood, but what is the current reason for why you think the Sokyoku is 6-B when executing prisoners, and that Ichigo is therefore 6-B?
Given the fact Clover liked my message here and Arc's message here, those are probably the reasons why he thinks that way.

As far as I can tell, it requires some very generous interpretations to make that the case.
It definitely doesn't, your claim requires more assumptions comparative to our claim given the evidence tbh, but we already know we both disagree with each other on that claim.
 
Given the fact Clover liked my message here, those are probably the reasons why he thinks that way.


It definitely doesn't, your claim requires more assumptions comparative to our claim given the evidence tbh, but we already know we both disagree with each other on that claim.
The only claim I've made is not being convinced by the proposed evidence.

I haven't proposed any alternative rating or scaling for Ichigo at this time.
 
The only claim I've made is not being convinced by the proposed evidence.

I haven't proposed any alternative rating or scaling for Ichigo at this time.
That's definitely not your only claim, you've claimed we would require a higher preponderance of evidence to assume Sokyoku's fullpower was released against Ichigo. Which isn't true and I've proven why it isn't true. Your refutations aren't satisfactory.

Arguing the Sokyoku's phoenix transformation, which is directly stated its "true form", which amplifies the base power of the Sokyoku by dozens of time over, which released power against Ichigo which is hyped up being capable of "overwhelming everything in existence", and is finally implied then when it amplifies its power it's capable of destroying the Seireitei to SS, isn't the Sokyoku's "full power" is asinine in my honest opinion.

Everything points against that assertion being true Damage, but you still constantly claim it anyway.....
 
Arguing the Sokyoku's phoenix transformation, which is directly stated its "true form", which amplifies the base power of the Sokyoku by dozens of time over, which releases power which is hyped up being capable of "overwhelming everything in existence", and is finally implied then when it amplifies its power it's capable of destroying the Seireitei to SS, isn't the Sokyoku's "full power" is asinine in my honest opinion.

You don't see how you're relying an awful lot on "implication" here as opposed to direct evidence. I can't do anything to change your opinion on me being asinine or whatever, but from my perspective, a whole lot is being proposed based on so little.

This is the only scan presented that supports 6-B AP in any way... and even then, it's not at all direct. You have to assume that when the statement is given for the fictional enemy to use the Sokyoku, that it means that they will wipe out the entire Seireitei in a single use / attack. Is that stated anywhere on the page? Absolutely not. It even mentions the destruction of the entire Soul Society in the same moment, but is that given the same weight as the destruction of the Seireitei? No. It's dismissed "Well, that could just be over time or with multiple uses of the Sokyoku", despite such a thing not being stated or implied at all. So for this to work you have to assume:

1) The Seireitei would be destroyed in a single attack.
2) The Soul Society would not be destroyed in a single attack.

And on top of that, you then have to make the assumption that when the Sokyoku executes a prisoner, it is using the same amount of Attack Potency as when someone would use it to destroy the Seireitei in a single attack. Now, I can see why you would think this; if Feat A (Seireitei destruction) is within the Sokyoku's capability, and there is no reason for the Sokyoku to be holding itself back from its full strength, then any feat performed by the Sokyoku is equal to Feat A. Except... have you considered the reason why the Sokyoku's full power wouldn't be unleashed is because it has been stated that the Sokyoku is able to destroy the Seireitei, if not the full Soul Society? That's a perfectly logical reason for why less than full power would be used on something like executing a prisoner, if the subsequent side-effect of unleashing the Sokyoku's full power was the destruction of everything else in the vicinity. That's perfectly reasonable and it hardly needs spelling out for us. I mean, the calc method is literally for an explosion covering the entire area of the Seireitei. To say that the Sokyoku ramming into a prisoner is equal to that but with none of the destructive side-effects seems a little convenient.

Things like "The Sokyoku's power is amplified dozens of times when executing a prisoner" or "The spiritual pressure can overwhelm everything in existence" are anecdotal; they don't tell us anything concrete here. The Sokyoku being in its "true form" for both executing a prisoner and theoretically destroying the Seireitei does not tell us that Feat A = Feat B. That's like saying if a character goes into Bankai then all of their attacks in Bankai mode are the exact same, despite characters like Byakuya and Ichigo showing us they can do one feat in their Bankai and another stronger feat in their Bankai too.
 
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