Anti-Monitor Revision

[Jared1111]

I mean we aren’t too fond of retroactive scaling.

While we don't, i think all this does is reinforce a fact that's always been the case, the Monitor's
powers are directly tied with their domain and they gain all of that energy.

It just clarifies what COIE already implied so i think its fine.

Yeah Jared definitely makes sense to me, I suppose we wait till Firestorm responds. I would also be fine with the downgrade for Partial Star absorption AM, but his other versions should stay 2-A. To back this up AM was also stated to be the strongest being ever up to that point which would scale him above other multiverse busters such as Maaldor, keep in mind that infinite earths were established since the sixties iirc and infinite timelines since Warlord or earlier.

Wait a minute that's actually huge, if the Infinite Timelines/Dimensions has been established that long ago then a lot of what we scale Pre-Crisis Superman too actually needs to be reworked.

Especially since the 2-C rating we keep agreeing on comes from the Maaldor feat which was stated to destroy the Multiverse, which would mean that Pre-Crisis Superman has two Infinite Multiverse/Timeline feats with his Jaxon feat, which also means that Supergirl defeating a 2-A Anti Monitor isn't an outlier.

I think we may need to adjust some profiles if this is the case, because upgrade or downgrade the 2-C answer might not fly anymore.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, it's not just that he's linked with Positive Matter, its that he's linked with all Positive Matter and that all Positive Matter gives him power throughout all of the existence like it is said multiple times.

Yes, this is something that I understand, I am saying that I don't think it equates to infinite power, per se.

The story seems to be pretty adamant that the "Universes=Monitors Power".

I agree, but I don't think it's infinite power. Especially given the anti-feats that AM had during this storyline, even when the anti-matter wave had consumed all but a few universes.

 

[Jared1111]

Yes, this is something that I understand, I am saying that I don't think it equates to infinite power, per se.

But its an infinite Multiverse, if he has the power of the Universes themselves and he had an infinite amount of them powering him... then... y'know

Infinite Power.

That's not even getting over the fact the AM wave wasn't just destroying and absorbing the Universes, but also crashing throw dimensional barriers and time/space itself, which would mean it affects at the very least 4th Dimensional space. It literally was erasing them at every time period as shown in the story and the AM had to transport the Universes outside of the Multiverse itself just to keep them safe.

I agree, but I don't think it's infinite power. Especially given the anti-feats that AM had during this storyline, even when the anti-matter wave had consumed all but a few universes.

All Anti Feats (ha ha) that the Anti Monitor has are either explained as massive outliers (which stories like this can have) or can be explained in other ways

The Thunderers hurting him can be explained as they were his own creations and had only done minimal damage before he instantly destroyed all of them.

Supergirl could also be way stronger or weaker and still died with one good shot from the AM when he started trying.

The rest are either when he was weakened, or after the Dawn of Time when he got his own power thrown right back into him. Either way, i don't think they should be enough to justify the downgrade based on Anti Feats alone.

(The same story that said the combined might of all big league Superheroes hitting the AM at the same time was "Solar System" levels of destruction.)

 

[Deagonx]

It seems like we're jumping through a lot of hoops to justify a rating that he doesn't deserve. Sure you could create some kind of headcanon explanation for every bad showing, but why? They never really demonstrated 2-A. You could extrapolate, theoretically, that the power is infinite, but they were still beaten and had bad showings so why cling to it if the evidence is weak in the first place?

 

[Jared1111]

It seems like we're jumping through a lot of hoops to justify a rating that he doesn't deserve. Sure you could create some kind of headcanon explanation for every bad showing, but why? They never really demonstrated 2-A. You could extrapolate, theoretically, that the power is infinite, but they were still beaten and had bad showings so why cling to it if the evidence is weak in the first place?

Why doesn't he deserve it though? You haven't proven anything I've said wrong nor found any evidence that anything I've said is out of line or character. You've literally counteracted each one of my points with "well i don't feel that way" or "well i don't think it's like that" and downplaying all the feats in question. You haven't even addressed Rebirth outright confirming my argument about their power being directly connected to their realms further proving my point.

And how can you say they didn't demonstrate 2-A when the entire event is about a Wave that the Anti Monitor himself sent out with his own power that destroyed an entire Infinite Multiverse and Infinite Timelines. How is that not 2-A? and don't say "timescale" because timescales don't work with an attack that destroys space-time and infinite realities. I've posted dozens of scans of the Monitors power being directly linked to all of existence and you haven't shown anything to prove me wrong.

And listen, man, I'm sorry to sound like a dick, but I could just as easily argue you're jumping through hoops to try to downgrade the Anti Monitor because you do spend a lot of time trying to downgrade DC characters in any way you can, you've done this before with the Cosmic characters. I'm not saying you're doing it in bad faith, but don't try to pretend you don't have a bias as well.

And again, bad showings don't automatically downgrade characters, otherwise, Superman would be 9-B at best.

 

[Teezar]

Supergirl defeating a 2-A Anti Monitor isn't an outlier

Someone once proved this in comicsvine.

 

[Teezar]

And listen, man, I'm sorry to sound like a dick, but I could just as easily argue you're jumping through hoops to try to downgrade the Anti Monitor because you do spend a lot of time trying to downgrade DC characters in any way you can, you've done this before with the Cosmic characters. I'm not saying you're doing it in bad faith, but don't try to pretend you don't have a bias as well.

And again, bad showings don't automatically downgrade characters, otherwise, Superman would be 9-B at best.

I said this before,and am sure people also have.

 

[Jared1111]

I said this before,and am sure people also have.

To be clear, i don't think he's acting in bad faith or is maliciously trying to downgrade characters because he just hates DC. I'm sure it's just his opinion but i don't think that makes him a troll, like some of the other dudes.

 

[Deagonx]

Why doesn't he deserve it though? You haven't proven anything I've said wrong nor found any evidence that anything I've said is out of line or character

The evidence against the points you are making is better, and the evidence that you've provided doesn't really prove your theories. Channeling energy from an infinite multiverse doesn't necessitate infinite power, even if you get weaker with few universes. There could absolutely be an upper limit as to how much power he can get, or the additional increase from more universes diminishes or etc. There's a lot we don't know about this mechanic or how it works, but knowing that it's linked to an infinite multiverse doesn't prove your case.

Likewise, let's get into the antifeats.

All Anti Feats (ha ha) that the Anti Monitor has are either explained as massive outliers (which stories like this can have) or can be explained in other ways

I mean, you open this up by basically writing off the legit anti-feats as outliers, even though the evidence for 2-A in the first place is only a shifty single instance, so in that case, how can we call it outliers?

The Thunderers hurting him can be explained as they were his own creations and had only done minimal damage before he instantly destroyed all of them.

Again, back to my put. Sure it could be explained this way, but is there any evidence of this or is this just a theory to explain away an anti-feat? Doing any damage at all should be impossible unless they themselves are 2-A, since the jump between 2-B and 2-A is literally infinity.

Supergirl could also be way stronger or weaker and still died with one good shot from the AM when he started trying.

Right, but she is still a 2-C being who destroyed his armor and caused him significant damage. Anti-Monitor literally said she destroyed most of his body.

That's not even getting over the fact the AM wave wasn't just destroying and absorbing the Universes, but also crashing throw dimensional barriers and time/space itself, which would mean it affects at the very least 4th Dimensional space. It literally was erasing them at every time period as shown in the story and the AM had to transport the Universes outside of the Multiverse itself just to keep them safe.

Spacetime continuums are 4th dimensional objects, yes.

You haven't even addressed Rebirth outright confirming my argument about their power being directly connected to their realms further proving my point.

Except it doesn't further prove your point, I never rejected that it was directly connected to their realms, this was never the subject of contention.

And how can you say they didn't demonstrate 2-A when the entire event is about a Wave that the Anti Monitor himself sent out with his own power that destroyed an entire Infinite Multiverse and Infinite Timelines. How is that not 2-A?

Because this same being, who is allegedly 2-A or 2-C at a minimum, himself could not destroy 5 remaining universes once his machines were destroyed and had to build an anti-matter cannon. Likewise, the destruction of universes is solely a function of the interaction between Anti-Matter and Matter. It's not even clear if that power is directly applicable to a combat situation, outside of literally just destroying the universes themselves.

And listen, man, I'm sorry to sound like a dick, but I could just as easily argue you're jumping through hoops to try to downgrade the Anti Monitor because you do spend a lot of time trying to downgrade DC characters

The general consensus here is against the argument you're making, so it's hardly jumping through hoops. I spend time trying to downgrade DC characters because I'm very familiar with these stories and the high cosmic characters are often overrated based on poor reasoning or out of context feats cobbled together across decades' worth of unrelated stories. If they were chronically underrated, I'd be doing the opposite. But battleboards trend towards overestimation.

 

[Teezar]

To be clear, i don't think he's acting in bad faith or is maliciously trying to downgrade characters because he just hates DC. I'm sure it's just his opinion but i don't think that makes him a troll, like some of the other dudes.

I don't know him physically but he has his choices...but I like truth than any other thing.

 

[Jared1111]

The evidence against the points you are making is better, and the evidence that you've provided doesn't really prove your theories. Channeling energy from an infinite multiverse doesn't necessitate infinite power, even if you get weaker with few universes. There could absolutely be an upper limit as to how much power he can get, or the additional increase from more universes diminishes or etc. There's a lot we don't know about this mechanic or how it works, but knowing that it's linked to an infinite multiverse doesn't prove your case.

Channeling the full power of the Multiverse is something i was trying to prove he could do, the Monitor is directly tied to the Multiverse itself, he isn't just getting power from some aspects of the Universe. Again, as i've gone over again and again how the comic goes out of its way to directly link the power of the Universe in its entirety to the Monitor himself, they don't say that when the positive matter is destroyed that he gets weaker, they outright state multiple times the universes themselves are giving him the power.

If you have any proof to them only saying otherwise, then go ahead, but nothing i've seen seems to indicate otherwise, especially with the wording and the AM correlating the Universes to the Monitors power directly.

Likewise, let's get into the antifeats.


I mean, you open this up by basically writing off the legit anti-feats as outliers, even though the evidence for 2-A in the first place is only a shifty single instance, so in that case, how can we call it outliers?

I write off the anti feats, of which there are like 2 at best because they could just be outliers that contradict the entirety of the story and how strong the AM is presented throughout that story. There have been instances in stories or big events where characters do things to characters that are usually beyond their paygrade, but that doesn't automatically mean we need to upgrade or downgrade characters based on inconsistencies.

There isn't just one piece of evidence for 2-A, theres multiple feats for both the Monitor and Anti Monitor.

Even then, i still try to argue that the anti feats could be explained.

Again, back to my put. Sure it could be explained this way, but is there any evidence of this or is this just a theory to explain away an anti-feat? Doing any damage at all should be impossible unless they themselves are 2-A, since the jump between 2-B and 2-A is literally infinity.

Right, but she is still a 2-C being who destroyed his armor and caused him significant damage. Anti-Monitor literally said she destroyed most of his body.

There's actually an argument to be had for Supergirl being 2-A, or at least her 2-C rating being wrong in the first place. Not only does Superman have a 2-A feat with the Jaxon attack and its effect on infinite timelines, his feat against Maaldor for which the 2-C feat is based upon might not even be 2-C either because the story also mentions Maaldor destroying the entirety of the Multiverse. If that's the case then plenty of characters scale to the Thunderers so them being a lower breed of 2-A

So it's not like Supergirl being above 2-C is even that impossible, to begin with, and even then, there's been plenty of times Pre-Crisis Superman was hurt by or knocked out by things that weren't 2-C either, we don't downgrade infinitely just because.

Even if you disagree with the 2-A scaling to Supergirl, which is fine it's a bit out there, I honestly don't think the 2-C rating applies anyway and I really should get around to making my arguments for that in the first place.

Spacetime continuums are 4th dimensional objects, yes.


Except it doesn't further prove your point, I never rejected that it was directly connected to their realms, this was never the subject of contention.

The feat isn't about them connected to their realms, it's about them controlling the energy of their realms directly. That's why it reinforces my points about the connection to the multiverse itself.

Because this same being, who is allegedly 2-A or 2-C at a minimum, himself could not destroy 5 remaining universes once his machines were destroyed and had to build an anti-matter cannon. Likewise, the destruction of universes is solely a function of the interaction between Anti-Matter and Matter. It's not even clear if that power is directly applicable to a combat situation, outside of literally just destroying the universes themselves.

The reason he couldn't destroy the 5 Universes if you read the story, was because the Monitor and Harbinger had done several steps to stop the Anti Monitor from doing so. Not only were the universes given specific devices that the Monitor used to protect them, he specifically put them in a realm of reality that the AM wave couldn't reach. He constructed the Anti Matter Cannon to specifically target the area they were because he couldn't reach it

Yeah, you could argue that he has a range issue at best, but saying that means he can't destroy the 5 Universes because he outright can't is dumb. Especially since Harbinger and Monitor were the ones that transported the universes there with their own power, the same power that exponentially stolen by the Anti Monitor and added to his own. Are you somehow saying he's weaker than the guy who was on death's door? The same type of space-time manipulation that was going to collide entire timestreams from 5 different universes together?

And again, it isn't just Matter and Anti-Matter as we know it because it was also crashing through dimensional barriers and time-space, it literally consumed everything throughout existence. It even went throughout time and space on all time periods. Pretty sure the attack would destroy everything that wasn't specifically Anti Matter in DC's terms. Either way, it's an AP feat most definitely.

The general consensus here is against the argument you're making, so it's hardly jumping through hoops. I spend time trying to downgrade DC characters because I'm very familiar with these stories and the high cosmic characters are often overrated based on poor reasoning or out of context feats cobbled together across decades' worth of unrelated stories. If they were chronically underrated, I'd be doing the opposite. But battleboards trend towards overestimation.

The general consensus doesn't mean that even Firestorm and the others were more arguing for the Post Dawn of Time feats after i made my post. Not only that I've had several people on here telling me they agree with my assessment so don't try to argue I'm alone here.

Again, that's fine, if you feel like you want to argue against these characters being overrated then sure, it's fine, but don't throw shade at me like I'm making up headcanons and what not when you obviously have an agenda to downgrade characters you don't feel deserve their tiers.

 

[Deagonx]

Again, as i've gone over again and again how the comic goes out of its way to directly link the power of the Universe in its entirety to the Monitor himself, they don't say that when the positive matter is destroyed that he gets weaker, they outright state multiple times the universes themselves are giving him the power.

I haven't disputed this, it just doesn't logically necessitate your conclusion, which is why I don't agree with it.

I write off the anti feats, of which there are like 2 at best because they could just be outliers that contradict the entirety of the story and how strong the AM is presented throughout that story.

Except those feats are in that story, you're alluding to a vague notion about "the entirety of the story" but what exactly do you mean by that? Yes, the anti matter wave that AM manipulated destroyed infinite universes, none of that is being contradicted, but AM's individual power as a combatant has been consistently lower than 2-A.

There's actually an argument to be had for Supergirl being 2-A, or at least her 2-C rating being wrong in the first place. Not only does Superman have a 2-A feat with the Jaxon attack and its effect on infinite timelines, his feat against Maaldor for which the 2-C feat is based upon might not even be 2-C either because the story also mentions Maaldor destroying the entirety of the Multiverse. If that's the case then plenty of characters scale to the Thunderers so them being a lower breed of 2-A

You are welcome to make a CRT for it, but both of these feats were discussed in this CRT that you participated in, and it was rejected by pretty much all of the DC knowledgeable staff members.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pre-crisis-superman-feat-and-correction.51972/

So again as it stands, AM was nearly completely destroyed by a 2-C being.

but saying that means he can't destroy the 5 Universes because he outright can't is dumb.

Except he literally couldn't. Otherwise he would have.

Especially since Harbinger and Monitor were the ones that transported the universes there with their own power, the same power that exponentially stolen by the Anti Monitor and added to his own.

Precisely. So if that power was taken by AM, he should've been more than capable of destroying them, teleporting to them, transporting them, etc. If he can create a cannon that can reach them, why can't he?

but don't throw shade at me like I'm making up headcanons

I mean, you literally were creating off-panel explanations for anti-feats.

you obviously have an agenda to downgrade characters you don't feel deserve their tiers

Yes. That's kind of the point of making CRTs, adjusting tiers for characters you feel are misrated.

 

[Firestorm808]

The energy of the positive and negative universes flows through the Monitors, but the energy still exists outside of them. It's similar to the Speed Force where it flows through speedsters, but they can pull the entire thing inside them for more power.

 

[Jared1111]

I haven't disputed this, it just doesn't logically necessitate your conclusion, which is why I don't agree with it.

Then I guess we have a disagreement of opinion on it, but i would still like at least some counterevidence in the form of a scan or two that would at least lower my opinion on this, otherwise i still feel like i got the better case

Except those feats are in that story, you're alluding to a vague notion about "the entirety of the story" but what exactly do you mean by that? Yes, the anti matter wave that AM manipulated destroyed infinite universes, none of that is being contradicted, but AM's individual power as a combatant has been consistently lower than 2-A.

The AM wave is the Anti Monitors power, the antimatter itself is something he molded into himself when he launched the attack, it is his power, he calls it is his power throughout the story.

The entire story hinges on the fact that the attack is something the AM did to the Multiverse, an attack that he himself created and molded against the Multiverse, and the entire story also goes into explicit detail on why the Monitors direct connection to the Multiverse counts.

You are welcome to make a CRT for it, but both of these feats were discussed in this CRT that you participated in, and it was rejected by pretty much all of the DC knowledgeable staff members.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pre-crisis-superman-feat-and-correction.51972/

So again as it stands, AM was nearly completely destroyed by a 2-C being.

One of the major reasons it was rejected back then was because we didn't have concrete proof that the Multiverse was established as 2-A back then, but we have several panels now that predate both feats that show the Multiverse was considered 2-A since the beginning

Also, ideas can change, and honestly, that entire revision wasn't ever that concrete anyway, characters like Wally West were once never gonna get an upgrade to above 2-C, but here we are.

but you're right about it not being the case now, so i won't bring it up until i can make my case in CRT. Nows not the time.

Except he literally couldn't. Otherwise he would have.

He couldn't destroy the Universes because of the precautions that the Monitor had taken to make sure he couldn't, he had to use external forces to make sure he could even reach the area from where the Monitor sent them. The entire point was that the Monitor used his power and his dimensional forks to put the Universes in a place that they couldn't be reached without the aid of machinery like the AM Cannon.

That doesn't mean he's not 2-C or somehow weaker than characters that are already above 2-C, to begin with.

I mean, you literally were creating off-panel explanations for anti-feats.

Point out anything I said that can't be at least reached from reading the comments. Literally, all i've said is either stated by the comics themselves or from external sources

Please, post scans of the issues themselves that you feel directly contradict my claims.

The energy of the positive and negative universes flows through the Monitors, but the energy still exists outside of them. It's similar to the Speed Force where it flows through speedsters, but they can pull the entire thing inside them for more power.

I see that, but the Monitors entire power level was reliant on the Universes existing in the first place. If someone like Wally lost his connection to the Speed Force he loses his powers, Monitor entire life energy was drained to the point he couldn't even stand up, the Multiverse death would have lead to his death.

Besides, the battle between AM and the Monitor took all of their energy and caused them to be so exhausted after the fight it took them out for billions of years, that's my biggest reason for the power drain being a case of them being 2-A at their max potential.

 

[Deagonx]

i would still like at least some counterevidence in the form of a scan or two that would at least lower my opinion on this, otherwise i still feel like i got the better case

Well we're offering alternative theories about the same scan, so I don't see why that would be the case.

The AM wave is the Anti Monitors power

His power was to channel the AM Universe into the wave, it's not something that comes from him alonee.

The entire story hinges on the fact that the attack is something the AM did to the Multiverse, an attack that he himself created and molded against the Multiverse, and the entire story also goes into explicit detail on why the Monitors direct connection to the Multiverse counts.

The entire story hinges on the fact that the multiverse is being destroyed, not any of this stuff you're saying. As you pointed out, in the original explanation AM didn't even create the wave. So certainly the story does not hinge on that piece of information.

One of the major reasons it was rejected back then was because we didn't have concrete proof that the Multiverse was established as 2-A back then

What? None of the comments say that. It's about it being an outlier, or Superman not necessarily scaling to Maaldor, or the fact that the amount of timelines wasn't specified to be infinite. It wasn't all of the multiverse's timelines, it only specified "Earth's possible futures."

He couldn't destroy the Universes because of the precautions that the Monitor had taken to make sure he couldn't, he had to use external forces to make sure he could even reach the area from where the Monitor sent them. The entire point was that the Monitor used his power and his dimensional forks to put the Universes in a place that they couldn't be reached without the aid of machinery like the AM Cannon.

But again, you just said that the power Monitor used to do that was absorbed by AM.

Please, post scans of the issues themselves that you feel directly contradict my claims.

It's not a matter of there being scans that directly contradict your claims, its the fact that your claims are manufactured excuses for AM's anti-feats that aren't specified on panel.

 

[Jared1111]

Also one thing i want to point out, since the Anti Matter Universe is described as being at least of the same power as the entire Positive Matter Multiverse since the Multiverst itself is a weaker version of the whole Positive Matter Universe, which means that Anti Matter Universe itself is as powerful as an infinite number of Universes in DC, including their separate space-time continuums and dimensional barriers.

Wouldn't he still be 2-A? Even if you argue he's only absorbing a fraction of the power of the AM Universe at any given time, a fraction of 2-A would still be 2-A. This would even play later in the Post Dawn of Time fight as him absorbing one star made him basically invulnerable to an entire legion of 2-C characters, only by absorbing said power and throwing it back at him along with all those 2-C characters was he finally taken down.

Maybe I'm crazy on this part.

 

[Deagonx]

Even if you argue he's only absorbing a fraction of the power of the AM Universe at any given time, a fraction of 2-A would still be 2-A

Well that's why you wouldn't use a term like "fraction" but rather "the energy he can use from the AM is limited."

 

[Jared1111]

Well we're offering alternative theories about the same scan, so I don't see why that would be the case.

My only problem is you seem to be using second hand knowledge without directly addressing any part of the comment other than vague ones.

Maybe i'm out of line but you don't seem to be remembering the storyline perfectly as you've missed a couple of details or are confused about a few plotlines.

His power was to channel the AM Universe into the wave, it's not something that comes from him alonee.

But he always channels the power of the AM Universe into the Wave because his power is the AM Universe. His power is directly connected to the AM Universe and its energies are his to manipulate.

The entire story hinges on the fact that the multiverse is being destroyed, not any of this stuff you're saying. As you pointed out, in the original explanation AM didn't even create the wave. So certainly the story does not hinge on that piece of information.

He literally did create the wave, what are you talking about? I've literally shown you a panel saying he used the Anti Matter found at the beginning of time to strengthen himself and then he molded that extra energy to destroy the Multiverse.

The only reason he needed that Anti Matter was to wake himself from his "prison" that knocked his ass out after the all-out attack. That and to give him the advantage to overpower the Monitor himself as they were equally matched without it.

What? None of the comments say that. It's about it being an outlier, or Superman not necessarily scaling to Maaldor, or the fact that the amount of timelines wasn't specified to be infinite. It wasn't all of the multiverse's timelines, it only specified "Earth's possible futures."

All of Earths Possible Futures would be infinite though, the DC Multiverse hinges on infinite possibilities, and those other timelines are also considered an entire Universe as the one Jaxon comes from is directly named Earth-AD. So they're not just extra timelines, their entire universes.

But again, you just said that the power Monitor used to do that was absorbed by AM.

But the technology wasn't the Monitor had used the Dimensional Forks tuned with his power to take the Universes to that alternate space beyond the scope of the AM wave. Its the reason that the AM also had to construct an additional machine to send the AM to the point the 5 Universes were.

It's not a matter of there being scans that directly contradict your claims, its the fact that your claims are manufactured excuses for AM's anti-feats that aren't specified on panel.

Again, please specify which claims i've made that are completely made up and i didn't have anything to back them up with.

 

[Teezar]

So again as it stands, AM was nearly completely destroyed by a 2-C being.

you guys mention outliers to DC and marvel characters alot,why don't you say so in such a case? All i see is biased.

Except he literally couldn't. Otherwise he would have

?

characters like Wally West were once never gonna get an upgrade to above 2-C, but here we are.

True tho.

Earth's possible futures."

This should definitely be infinite based on common sense.

 

[LordTracer]

Can y’all stop with the claims of people making things up or having agendas to downgrade characters? That doesn’t help anyone, try to be civil.

 

[Jared1111]

I agree, I don’t think anyone here is arguing in bad faith or anything. I was only arguing that you can throw accusations right back at if that was the game.

But that’s silly and I’ll stop.

 

[Deagonx]

My only problem is you seem to be using second hand knowledge without directly addressing any part of the comment other than vague ones.

Maybe i'm out of line but you don't seem to be remembering the storyline perfectly as you've missed a couple of details or are confused about a few plotlines.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by this exactly, but no I don't remember storylines perfectly. I don't really need to have some kind of photographic memory to make a sound argument.

But he always channels the power of the AM Universe into the Wave because his power is the AM Universe. His power is directly connected to the AM Universe and its energies are his to manipulate.

He is empowered by the AM Universe yes, but his power isn't the AM Universe. It's just a source of energy he can use.

He literally did create the wave, what are you talking about?

I'm talking about your statement below:

It's a funny misconception i had to read again to see, the original explanation for why the Anti Matter wave existed and destroyed reality was retconned into being the Anti Monitor all along, he says as much in COIE 10.

For this reason, saying the story "hinges" on this is bunk, the story can exist just fine without it because it literally did until it was retconned. And your interpretation for what it means for his individual power level isn't solidified by direct evidence.

All of Earths Possible Futures would be infinite though, the DC Multiverse hinges on infinite possibilities

It's never specified that this is the case in the storyline, and I don't necessarily agree that timelines within a single universe should be 2-A.

and those other timelines are also considered an entire Universe as the one Jaxon comes from is directly named Earth-AD. So they're not just extra timelines, their entire universes.

I think that's non-sequitur. Being from a timeline named Earth-AD doesn't mean it's a separate universe, it can just be an annotation for an alternate timeline that he exists in.

But the technology wasn't the Monitor had used the Dimensional Forks tuned with his power to take the Universes to that alternate space beyond the scope of the AM wave. Its the reason that the AM also had to construct an additional machine to send the AM to the point the 5 Universes were.

Why would he be able to construct a starlight collector that can pull these 5 universes together, and also a cannon that can reach this location, but not go there himself?

Again, please specify which claims i've made that are completely made up and i didn't have anything to back them up with.

Your excuse for the Thunderers anti-feat, for one.

you guys mention outliers to DC and marvel characters alot,why don't you say so in such a case? All i see is biased.

First, what is with this obnoxious outline thing? If you're going to make an accusation, have some backbone and stand by it. Second, where am I mentioning outliers for DC? And I've almost never participated in a Marvel thread.

This should definitely be infinite based on common sense.

The phrase "common sense" can be reliably replaced with "my personal sense of intuition" and it isn't a substitute for evidence.

 

[Firestorm808]

Why are we assuming that Monitor and Anti-Monitor fought to a draw at 2-A and not 2-C?

 

[LordTracer]

Your excuse for the Thunderers anti-feat, for one.

First, what is with this obnoxious outline thing? If you're going to make an accusation, have some backbone and stand by it. Second, where am I mentioning outliers for DC? And I've almost never participated in a Marvel thread.

Dude, chill out. There’s no need to be snarky.

 

[Deagonx]

Dude, chill out. There’s no need to be snarky

Teezar has been hovering on the outskirts of this discussion for the past few days doing nothing but making snide remarks striked out.

 

[Jared1111]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say by this exactly, but no I don't remember storylines perfectly. I don't really need to have some kind of photographic memory to make a sound argument.

I mean... having a moderate understanding of what the story was to remember massive plot points is kind of important. Especially when you're literally downgrading the entire character based on points you may have missed

Like I read through the entirety of COIE and took down notes before I started making this argument because i wanted to be exactly sure i wasn't taking anything at face value.

Like even now I'm reading through the story to make sure I'm not pulling shit out of my ass.

He is empowered by the AM Universe yes, but his power isn't the AM Universe. It's just a source of energy he can use.

He literally linked to the AM Universe from birth, the AM Universe created it as his conduit, and with the Rebirth retcon he was directly created to be the guy who shepherded the entire dimension. It's no his source of power, it's his only power.

I'm talking about your statement below:


For this reason, saying the story "hinges" on this is bunk, the story can exist just fine without it because it literally did until it was retconned. And your interpretation for what it means for his individual power level isn't solidified by direct evidence.

How can the story rest on it when it was never the case to begin with, it was misinformation that Pariah didn't have.

Are you saying the entire reason the event happened, literally the linchpin of the story being that the Anti Monitor destroys the Multiverse.... isn't the most important part.

It's never specified that this is the case in the storyline, and I don't necessarily agree that timelines within a single universe should be 2-A.

What do you mean it was never specified? Not only are timelines being considered separate universes canon to DC in general, it wasn't some retcon that happened decades later and was clarified in an official encyclopedia on the book. Doesn't change the fact that it was one of the Earths and its canon to the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

Even then your opinion on whether or not its actually a single universe doesn't really matter, that's how DC sees it. Even a fraction of infinity is still infinity, and if infinite timelines of one earth still lead to an infinite number of universes, then so be it.

I think that's non-sequitur. Being from a timeline named Earth-AD doesn't mean it's a separate universe, it can just be an annotation for an alternate timeline that he exists in.

It's literally a separate Earth in the context of the DC Universe though, as its label as an Alternate Universe even in the COIE compendium. If you want to disagree with an official companion piece that labels that specific alternate earth also as a separate universe, then go ahead.

Why would he be able to construct a starlight collector that can pull these 5 universes together, and also a cannon that can reach this location, but not go there himself?

As i said, could be a range issue. He was trying to destroy the entirety of the 5 Universes in one shot with the Anti Matter Cannon to be done with it.

Your excuse for the Thunderers anti-feat, for one.

What about my excuse is wrong? The Thunderers were absolutely creations of the Anti Monitor, they were aspects of his own power, and though they did minimal damage they were ultimately destroyed rather easily once the AM got pissed. None of that is contradicted by the story in COIE, or at least you haven't proven to me that it isn't. Again if you're gonna say i'm wrong as least give me evidence for why i am wrong.

Why are we assuming that Monitor and Anti-Monitor fought to a draw at 2-A and not 2-C?

Why would they be fighting to their absolute limit for eons and not be at their maximum power level, especially when said battle literally crippled them for billions of years?

If they had full access to the power of their dimensions as you said if they needed why would they not use said power to fight to the death?

(Also, i had found some random piece of information that said the AM wasn't at full power when he fought Supergirl or that he was weakened when he fought her, i'm going to look the story again, but if you have any information on it i'd appreciate it)

 

[LordTracer]

Teezar has been hovering on the outskirts of this discussion for the past few days doing nothing but making snide remarks striked out.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because he’s being rude doesn’t mean you should be too.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Jared1111

According to Anti-Monitor, he had never tried absorbing all the energy of the Anti-Matter universe into him before the Dawn of Time fight. It would kill everything in it. The same can be said regarding Monitor.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean... having a moderate understanding of what the story was to remember massive plot points is kind of important.

Okay, but we're moving the goalposts. A "moderate understand" doesn't necessitate "remembering the storyline perfectly" so why are you conflating the two?

He literally linked to the AM Universe from birth, the AM Universe created it as his conduit, and with the Rebirth retcon he was directly created to be the guy who shepherded the entire dimension. It's no his source of power, it's his only power.

Yes, I am aware that AM is closely linked to the AM Universe, but no, it isn't his only power. Especially in Rebirth.

How can the story rest on it when it was never the case to begin with, it was misinformation that Pariah didn't have.

Then why did you call it a retcon if it was "never the case?" The storyline doesn't need AM to make the wave, because that wasn't even information we had until the event was almost over.

Are you saying the entire reason the event happened, literally the linchpin of the story being that the Anti Monitor destroys the Multiverse.... isn't the most important part.

The linchpin of the story is the Anti-Matter wave destroying the multiverse, none of that changes if AM didn't directly create it, which wasn't canon until issue 10 of 12.

Doesn't change the fact that it was one of the Earths and its canon to the Pre-Crisis Multiverse

I'm not denying it's existence, I'm challenging your interpretation of what it's existence means. Also you're welcome to post scans from the compendium if you believe they prove your point, and then they can be discussed.

If you want to disagree with an official companion piece that labels that specific alternate earth also as a separate universe, then go ahead.

An official companion piece you haven't sourced.

Even a fraction of infinity is still infinity

Who is referring to a fraction of infinity?

He was trying to destroy the entirety of the 5 Universes in one shot with the Anti Matter Cannon to be done with it.

Why would he need to do this if destroying 5 universes would be a trivial portion of his power? This would be like squashing ants to a 2-A being, yet he toiled away working on a cannon.

What about my excuse is wrong? The Thunderers were absolutely creations of the Anti Monitor, they were aspects of his own power, and though they did minimal damage they were ultimately destroyed rather easily once the AM got pissed. None of that is contradicted by the story in COIE

Nor does it need to be contradicted, but it doesn't overwrite the fact that it is an anti-feat.

 

[Firestorm808]

Anti-Monitor built a cannon that needed to draw in energy first. You could argue why Anti-Monitor didn't charge it up to full with his own power from the start.

 

[Deagonx]

Anti-Monitor built a cannon that needed to draw in energy first. You could argue why Anti-Monitor didn't charge it up to full with his own power from the start.

Good point. AM just doesn't make sense as a 2-A being. Too much of the story relies on him being much weaker than that to make any sense.

 

[Qawsedf234]

What do you think?

As before 2-C Anti-Monitor with his 2-A feats being another designation is fine with me.

 

[Jared1111]

Okay, but we're moving the goalposts. A "moderate understand" doesn't necessitate "remembering the storyline perfectly" so why are you conflating the two?

Because you're missing a lot of key details and asking me questions you would be able to answer if you read the book. Again, maybe i'm stepping out of line but i feel you don't have the full story memorized.

And again, moderate understanding is fine, but i feel like you should have bit more if you're this adamant about downgrading an entire character.

Yes, I am aware that AM is closely linked to the AM Universe, but no, it isn't his only power. Especially in Rebirth.

Rebirth is different, especially since his true form comes from the 6th Dimension. But within the aspect of COIE they repeatedly refer to his power coming directly from the Anti Matter Universe, same as the Monitor.

Then why did you call it a retcon if it was "never the case?" The storyline doesn't need AM to make the wave, because that wasn't even information we had until the event was almost over.

Because i'm Korean and sometimes my English isn't as good as i want it to be so i say things not knowing they will be taken literally

Sorry

Because the entire story as it is presented in COIE when seen in full explains that the entire event isn't possible without the AM and his wave, it absolutely occurs because of him and his 2-A powers. The only reason it was stated to be like that was that the characters weren't in the know and even then they didn't even have an explanation other than Pariah thought that's what happened.

The linchpin of the story is the Anti-Matter wave destroying the multiverse, none of that changes if AM didn't directly create it, which wasn't canon until issue 10 of 12.

What does this even mean? Its the linchpin of the story because it's the linchpin of the story. It absolutely changes everything because the one to set the wave in motion, even before Pariah only thought it was his fault for the wave existing in the first place, it was still said that the AM absorbed its power and used it on the Multiverse?

Why are you being so specifically odd about this one point because i said retcon once?

I'm not denying it's existence, I'm challenging your interpretation of what it's existence means. Also you're welcome to post scans from the compendium if you believe they prove your point, and then they can be discussed.

How is my interpretation of it being a separate universe be disputed if that's exactly what the creators stated it was? Are the interpretations of the original creators not valid?

An official companion piece you haven't sourced.

It's a part of the Crisis on Infinite Earths Absolute Edition.

Here's the page its from.

Specific image.

Here it's called Earth 295, but either way, it's the same Earth from the Jaxon storyline.

Why would he need to do this if destroying 5 universes would be a trivial portion of his power? This would be like squashing ants to a 2-A being, yet he toiled away working on a cannon.

As I said, it's because of the dimensional forks used by the Monitor to send them to a place the Anti Monitor couldn't easily reach. He needs the Anti Matter Cannon to specifically target that netherworld that the Monitor put in with his technology. The Monitor himself had to use said technology that was already attuned with his power to reach that layer.

If you're arguing that he simply couldn't do it or didn't have the power to meld reality, then how could Harbinger literally collide the 4D Universes into each other using a fraction of the power, being able to manipulate all of reality, how could have the Monitors power be able to use the power the technology to create the dimensional place they needed?

Anti-Monitor built a cannon that needed to draw in energy first. You could argue why Anti-Monitor didn't charge it up to full with his own power from the start.

That seems more like a plot hole than anything, why didn't AM just absorb the Anti Matter needed to blow up 5 Universes himself, like he was able to do with Pariahs Universe?

He didn't have an Anti Matter Cannon there.

 

[Jared1111]

@Jared1111

According to Anti-Monitor, he had never tried absorbing all the energy of the Anti-Matter universe into him before the Dawn of Time fight. It would kill everything in it. The same can be said regarding Monitor.

Do you remember where this was said specifically? I can’t seem to find it in the story.

 

[Firestorm808]

Do you remember where this was said specifically? I can’t seem to find it in the story.

COIE #8

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/PT3J9WvkC12eWxLp49_I0VaSoEXanZDscBNOxVBtnLY6PNvhoSu5Ic1pT377OYW4LbNPe6tmEU7n=s1600

 

[Jared1111]

COIE #8

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/PT3J9WvkC12eWxLp49_I0VaSoEXanZDscBNOxVBtnLY6PNvhoSu5Ic1pT377OYW4LbNPe6tmEU7n=s1600

Where is it said that he has never done it before or couldn’t do it before? All it says here is that he’s destroying one million worlds for absolute energy.

The fight between the Monitor and Anti Monitor happened over 9 billion years before, before much life existed in the Positive Matter verse anyway. Is it stated they couldn’t have done the same then?

(Also strange thing I noticed, the AM mentions here that he absorbs the power of a million worlds, but there are two million inhabited worlds in the AM verse. So did he not kill the entirety of the AM-verse? I think in another issue they say he absorbed all the energy of the AM universe? Is it just an inconsistency or did he not actually kill off the AM verse to get his 2-A status at the dawn of time?)

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I think "More" is the keyword to mean that he absorbed his entire universe (in addition to this)

 

[Sandman31]

Just regarding the Earth Prime and Earth 33 stuff

Read More: Interview: Grant Morrison Takes Us On A Multiversity Tour | https://comicsalliance.com/grant-mo...-diego/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referra


GM: Oh yeah, very much. There's got to be a bad guy somewhere. I don't want to say too much about that, but certainly the thing that we're doing, which is the seventh issue of the series, it's called "Ultra Comics", and it's kind of a new character but it's based on Earth Prime, which is our Earth, which we re-named Earth 33 now just so it fits in the numerical structure. So Earth Prime is here and I thought, in the past there had been stories like the evil Superboy who lives here. Geoff Johns wrote this guy who sits in his basement writing at the comic news sites [Editor's note: Superboy-Prime is the best comic book character ever]. Prior to that we've had stories where the Flash would meet up with Julie Schwartz, the Flash editor, or Cary Bates, the writer.

So I'm thinking, well, we know there are no superheroes in this world; there just are none. What does a superhero look like in this world? Well, it's made of paper, or it's something that appears in celluloid. So I set up the task of making the world's first superhero and the comic being that. I'm interested in the idea of religions of "the book", that we have in this world. The way they thrive is an actual book, which is the god. It's not just the word of god, the book itself is God. So people take instruction from it and it becomes a programming language that's easy to go back and refer to like a manual. So I kind of wanted to do what with a superhero comic.

Here, Grant Morrison said that Earth Prime is Earth 33, which is "our earth" but he kind of disputes the idea that Superboy-Prime lives in Earth 33. He insisted that there cant be a superhero in our world so that can't be possible.

It seems contradictory that Grant Morrison says that Earth 33 is Earth Prime but then insists that Superboy Prime can't exists there as there cant be Superheroes in our world.

I think whats happening here is that there are 2 "real" worlds, one is the Prime Earth where Superboy came from and the other one is supposed to be the world where we live

In other words, the real world that is on paper and the actual real world

GM/The Writer: You cant get into my world but I can get into yours. I can fake the real world here on the comic page.
What's interesting about Ultra Comics is that he is both the character and book itself. When you read Ultra Comics, that world is not Earth 33, its just a post apocalyptic world inside Ultra Comics.

But if Ultra Comics is about Earth 33s only Superhero then where is Earth 33?

Well, Ultra Comics, the only Superhero of Earth 33 is not a superhero like Superman, he's just a book because there cant be superheroes in our world. The only way a superhero can exists in Earth 33 is through a comic book. Like I said above, Ultra Comics is not just the character, he's also the world, the story basically the comic itself so when you read this meta comics and interact with it you're sort of making our world a part of the the story of the DC universe as some sort of unreachable world.


https://www.dccomics.com/characters/earth-33

These dreams have taken many forms, but most notable of all may be the visual storytelling medium we call comic books. In it, we’ve dreamed of super men who could fly, billionaires who fight crime and Amazon warriors who wield truth-bringing lassos—heroes who have filled up a whole Multiverse of worlds. So when that Multiverse is in danger, it only makes sense that we dream up one more: Ultra Comics, a super hero who exists on Earth-33 the only way he can, in the form of the very medium that birthed them. Will Ultra Comics be enough to keep the Multiverse from falling? Only time will tell. But it’s clear that the lives of millions of super heroes throughout the universe may now be dependent on the most unlikely of saviors: The only world in the Multiverse without them.

While Earth 33 is part of the multiverse, its also not part of the multiverse because its surrounded by the Fictive Membrane (4th wall) where only ideas can get through

https://www.pastemagazine.com/comic...ive-preview-interview-grant-morrison-unleash/

Grant Morrison: There’s a very bad idea hidden inside the comic book, and the bad idea will be revealed if you continue to read it, so you may not want to know this. The bad idea is ultimately not that you stop reading the story, but the story dies, which by implication means that you one day will also die. The new horror that’s revealed is the Oblivion Machine in Ultra Comics; consuming comics is devouring the hours and the minutes of your lives, and you’re actually being vampirized by your entertainment media. That’s the ghost in Ultra Comics, that you’re being devoured by the story that you’re consuming, because you could be out there meeting the girl of your dreams or flying out a microlight. It’s about the things that we consume, the pictures that we love to watch.

Morrison: One more thing is that Ultra Comics was inspired by the 1970s head comics. I don’t know if you’ve ever read Jim Starlin’s Warlock or Captain Marvel. I grew up on that. Back in the day, people like Starlin would come back from Vietnam and did these fantastic allegorical kind of Pilgrim’s Progress-style superhero comics. So I think Ultra Comics was my and Doug Mahnke’s attempt to almost create one of those cosmic comics of the ‘70s. Everything is allegorical. Everything is a metaphor. Everything is some psychological state. I will mention that, because those guys were a big inspiration for this particular issue.

Read More: Digging Deep Into 'The Multiversity' With Grant Morrison [Interview] | https://comicsalliance.com/multiver...rison/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

Morrison: I think the questions are kind of answered if you read it multiple times. It’s meant to be like a loop. It’s meant to be like you’re trapped inside with something malevolent. And how you figure out what you’ve been told by the malevolent entity, it’s kind of down to the individual reader. Quite literally, everyone who reads Ultra Comics will be connected across time and space by the fact that they’re reading Ultra Comics. The comic is a gigantic node of a network. Even when I’m dead, people might pick up a back issue of Ultra Comics and be part of the story again. Every mind that becomes part of Ultra Comics becomes part of this superhero network. The idea was how closely could we embed a fictional entity into the real world and connect it to real people, and enter real people into what we were doing.

GM: Slightly, yeah. I think the main idea in Multiversity, what I wanted to talk about and what all the books are about, but particular the Ultra Comics issue and the final issue, is quite simply: Be careful what you let into your head.
In a world where everything is protected -- people live in houses with locked doors, they put their valuables in safes, they keep their information safe behind passwords and antiviral controls -- we allow pretty much anything into our heads. Particularly since the Internet age has really got its teeth in and we're starting to see some of the effects it's having on people.
I think, to some extent, that's a glut of information and a tide of information that's almost too much for people to take. It has resulted in a kind of sickness in people, exhaustion or resignation. So, ultimately Multiversity is about that, because I like to write stories about stuff that I'm seeing in the world around me, or the stuff I'm feeling. It's about, are you sure you should be letting all this stuff into your head? How do you honestly feel about all the **** and all the things you see, all the beheadings? What's it doing in there?
The Gentry kind of represent all those things that we just accept. To me, the result I'm actually seeing is a kind of soul weariness, a cynicism, a sickness that permeates culture. I think we're all fed up with ourselves and we're just waiting to be destroyed by the other.

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay.

Would you be willing to apply the new statistics @Firestorm808 ?

Do we need more staff input?

 

[Teezar]

First, what is with this obnoxious outline thing? If you're going to make an accusation, have some backbone and stand by it. Second, where am I mentioning outliers for DC? And I've almost never participated in a Marvel thread.

You guys on this wiki do that alot. I didn't specifically say you