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Anti-Monitor Revision

Monitor and Anti-Monitor do get a passive boost from the size of their domain, but it's clear that directly absorbing their domains gives a significantly higher boost.

When Supergirl fought Anti-Monitor, he was only working with the passive size of his AMverse, and he lost.

Anti-Monitor had to absorb his Anti-Matter Universe so he could destroy the Positive Matter Multiverse at the Dawn of Time by his literal own hand.

In the final battle, Anti-Monitor just absorbing an Anti-Matter Star allowed him to tank the heroes easily.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Anti-Monitor had to absorb his Anti-Matter Universe so he could destroy the Positive Matter Multiverse at the Dawn of Time by his literal own hand.

In the final battle, Anti-Monitor just absorbing an Anti-Matter Star allowed him to tank the heroes easily.
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If I'm not mistaken they fought star absorbing AM in the anti-matter universe right? How did it appear again if he absorbed it all?
 
Ok, but like the folding didn't explicitly make anyone weaker (including AM) until later in their comic lines? Also do you think AM let go off the power he absorbed to create a new AM verse or not? Because I haven't really seen anyone bring up evidence of AM explicitly being stated to be weaker post-Dawn of Time than during Dawn of Time.
 
So, what should we do with the rebirth keys? Should we scale the Anti-Monitor and the Monitor (rebirth) to their classic versions?
 
I also trust Firestorm's evaluations.
 
San-Kakarot said:
How can base Anti-Monitor be 2-C, if he needed machines to destroy universes?
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He’s literally the one that molded the Anti Matter wave that destroyed the Multiverse at the beginning of the story. He needed help because of the Monitor and Harbingers interference causing the realities to constantly be outside of his reach or protected.
 
Earth Prime has been established as a parallell universe to the regular DC Comics world which is largely similar to our own, and which can read their adventures in comic book form. That is it.
 
Jared1111 said:
He’s literally the one that molded the Anti Matter wave that destroyed the Multiverse at the beginning of the story. He needed help because of the Monitor and Harbingers interference causing the realities to constantly be outside of his reach or protected.
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Do you have scans of this? I don't remember ever reading that he molded the wave, as far as I can recall, it was simply caused by Krona looking back at the beginning of time. But I am open to evidence proving that conception wrong.
 
Teezar said:

Earth Prime was also erased,a realm which DC characters are seen as fiction.
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Earth Prime/Earth-33 is one layer of fiction representing our real world and exists within the Orrery of Worlds but unlike the other parallell universes of the Orrery, Earth Prime has no superheroes since such things only exists in comic books. The Writer stated that he can create multiple layers of fiction representing the real world.

Anyway, as I said above, I'm on Firestorm's side. 2-C seems reasonable for the Anti-Monitor at his most basic power level and 2-A with the antimatter wave and at his peak is fine. I think the rebirth versions should scale to it.
 
Elizio33 said:
Earth Prime/Earth-33 is one layer of fiction representing our real world and exists within the Orrery of Worlds.
Click to expand...
I think describing it as a layer is a bit of a misnomer, at least in modern DC. Per Multiversity, all of the universes of the Orrery have fictional stories detailing the events and heroes of other universes. When they all meet up at the space station (the name escapes me) they're all showing each other comic books, recognizing eachother, etc. Earth-33 is one of these, but it's exceptional insofar as it has no actual heroes on it, and has a metafictional relationship with the others.

However, strictly speaking, Earth-33 isn't "more real" than the other universes of the Orrery, and beings above the Orrery don't see the universes as fictional.

Elizio33 said:
2-C seems reasonable for the Anti-Monitor at his most basic power level and 2-A with the antimatter wave and at his peak is fine. I think the rebirth versions should scale to it.
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I also agree.
 
Deagonx said:
I think describing it as a layer is a bit of a misnomer, at least in modern DC. Per Multiversity, all of the universes of the Orrery have fictional stories detailing the events and heroes of other universes. When they all meet up at the space station (the name escapes me) they're all showing each other comic books, recognizing eachother, etc. Earth-33 is one of these, but it's exceptional insofar as it has no actual heroes on it, and has a metafictional relationship with the others.

However, strictly speaking, Earth-33 isn't "more real" than the other universes of the Orrery, and beings above the Orrery don't see the universes as fictional.


I also agree.
Click to expand...
Layer of fiction is a figure of speech on how Earth-33 reflects our world without necessarily being our real world since the writer can create worlds representing our world.
 
Teezar said:
But earth-prime sees the orrery worlds as fictional.
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Earth Prime's inhabitants see all superheroes, aliens and so on as fiction, but all these things that Earth Prime's inhabitants sees as fiction actually exist in others parallell worlds without them knowing since Earth Prime exists within the Orrery.
 
Elizio33 is correct as far as I am aware.
 
Elizio33 said:
Layer of fiction is a figure of speech on how Earth-33 reflects our world without necessarily being our real world since the writer can create worlds representing our world.
Click to expand...
Elizio33 said:
Earth Prime's inhabitants see all superheroes, aliens and so on as fiction, but all these things that Earth Prime's inhabitants sees as fiction actually exist in others parallell worlds without them knowing since Earth Prime exists within the Orrery.
Click to expand...
You're right. I just wanted to make that distinction so as to avoid someone interpreting it as a Reality-Fiction layer within DC. Earth Prime sees it as fiction, as in it exists in fictional stories in their world, but these universes are in fact real.
 
Deagonx said:
Do you have scans of this? I don't remember ever reading that he molded the wave, as far as I can recall, it was simply caused by Krona looking back at the beginning of time. But I am open to evidence proving that conception wrong.
Click to expand...
It's a funny misconception i had to read again to see, the original explanation for why the Anti Matter wave existed and destroyed reality was retconned into being the Anti Monitor all along, he says as much in COIE 10.

The Anti Matter only freed him after he was imprisoned and weakened, once he gained control again he launched his attack against the Multiverse and the story says multiple times that it was his doing. And it also says the only reason he had never done it before was that he didn't realize that destroying the Positive Matter Universes would increase his power, then he launched the wave that covered all of existence at all times, increasing his power with each Universe destroyed.

I did a post about it before showing the rest of the scans.
Jared1111 said:
Ok, i've been able to pile up information from reading the entire story, and i feel like i can better explain my reasoning for why the Anti Monitor would still be 2-A even before he absorbed the Anti Matter Universe.

The AM Wave was of the Anti-Monitors creation:

First, i want to get into the context of what the Anti Matter-wave was and is, the Anti Matter-wave that destroyed all of Pariah's world was originally thought to be of his own doing, but it was directly stated that the Anti Monitor himself controlled and redirected the energy to destroy the Universe, before sending out the wave itself to destroy all of creation. The Anti Matter Wave (even though its vague) was heavily implied to be shaped by the Anti-Monitor himself and used to attack the dimensions, he didn't do so before because he was imprisoned and only recently learned of the Positive Matter Universes adding to his strength.

The reason he needed this is because the Monitor's powers thwarted him at every turn, they were of equal power even from conception and The Monitor directly states his power comes from the Multiverse itself. Its energy directly affects him and every Universe destroyed lowers his power infinitely. I'll explain why below

Reasons why the AM wave is definitely 2-A:

It is stated to attack all Earths, At all Times, Everywhere

Monitor was trying to get heroes from various timelines, but as the wave hit them, it erased them from existence entirely

Multiple instances of it not just attacking the universes, from the planes of reality as well.

Once again stated to shatter the dimensional barriers, including space-time.
Even Brainiac could not find where the point of origin was from, and he can both see and study things through time and space.

The Anti Matter Universe fills the voids where the Universes existed, expanding out infinitely.

Most importantly, all Universes absorbed directly into the Anti Monitor, for every time his strength is taken, it is absorbed back into him.

Even the Spectre and Phantom Strangers Magicks could not survive the Anti Matter Universe, as its properties were too destructive. This also from a guy who is already 2-A Pre-Crisis.

BONUS FACT: Apokolips itself, even its other-dimensional counterpart, is directly stated to be potentially affected by the Anti Monitor. But i would consider this a potential outlier.

Reasons why Monitors powers directly correspond to the Multiverse:

The Monitor himself is directly stated to have his power from the Multiverse, and each universe gives him power over said Universe, from all time and space, including the dimensional planes that occupy them all.

This is further explained by the AM referring to the Universes as the Monitors Power and Strength

Monitor reinforces that the deaths of the universes themselves correlate to the diminishing of his power

Reinforced again in a flashback.

Even in his beyond weakened state, his energies were used to fuse the dimensions of Earth 1 and Earth 2 to another limbo reality, beyond the reach of the Anti Monitor.

Harbinger, who was also given a fraction of the power of the Monitor himself, used her own energies to combine the other 3 universes with the remaining 2 to save them again from the anti matter wave.

This collision caused problems across all the timelines, causing the various pasts and futures of all 5 universes to collide. Further proving this isn't just a HIgh 3-A level event.

His own satellite is said to exist within all times, places, and dimensions.

Defense for remaining 5 Universes:

The reason why the AM wave didn’t destroy the remaining 5 Universes is simple, he had already planned for the AM destruction and had created tuning forks that would be used to keep the Universes safe until the last minute, and then teleported them to a limbo realm beyond time and space where they would be kept safe from the AM wave. The AM wave as mentioned before would have destroyed the 5 universes all the same, across all time periods, if not for the intervention of the Monitor and Harbinger, who wields a limited form of his powers.

Why Scaling doesn't work.

Arguments against scaling to Thunderers and Supergirl are simple, both events occurred well after the AM had already scaled to the Multiverse absorption, the very power he had been directly feeding upon. So already they contradict the story itself, and don’t make sense, especially the Thunderers as they were creations of the Anti Monitor himself, were easily dispatched once he got pissed, and were all attacking him at once with power that should have already been similar enough to the Pre-Crisis heroes.

Also, for Supergirl, this once again either comes down to how screwed Pre-Crisis Superman’s tiering is (his tiering itself doesn’t make sense, nor does his 2-C rating. I’ll address this later in another thread) so I think for now it shouldn’t be considered anyway.

(The crossover itself has weird scaling for the heroes anyway, like saying the combined might of dozens of confirmed Universe level beings as "decimating a solar system". So i think we should only scale between AM and the Monitor)

Why 2-C doesn't make sense in any case:

Finally, even if all of this is true, why is this considered a 2-C rating anyway, when the Anti Monitors own creations were a threats to the likes of Dr. Fate and Dr. Fate himself (Who is 2-B at worst) and other likewise sorcerers already considered the AM a huge threat, and their own powers couldn’t even function within the Anti Matter Universe. The 2-C rating at best doesn’t make any sense either way.

Conclusion:

Overall, I disagree heavily with this downgrade from what I’ve read, and I would need more discrepancies for why the AM cannot be 2-A pre absorption, otherwise, the presented evidence isn’t enough.
Click to expand...
It's why i still disagree with the downgrade, as the AM Universe is still considered on par with the entirety of the Positive Matter Multiverse itself, and Monitor was stated to gain his power from all of it multiple times.

I can only really see the post Dawn of Time Anti Monitor being lower, and even then i don't even really agree with anything less than the Partial Star Absorption AM getting lowered because beforehand he was still considered outright unstoppable to the heroes, of which a shit load of arguable 2-C or higher characters outright couldn't crack his armor for shit until Doctor Light literally threw the power right back at him and it still took every single character throwing literally everything at him to do anything.
 
Jared1111 said:
It's a funny misconception i had to read again to see, the original explanation for why the Anti Matter wave existed and destroyed reality was retconned into being the Anti Monitor all along, he says as much in COIE 10.
Click to expand...
Gotcha, so he can channel anti-matter into energy which is how the original wave was created.

Jared1111 said:
Monitor was stated to gain his power from all of it multiple times.
Click to expand...
You can gain your power from an infinite source without your power necessarily being infinite. Not that the AM Universe is likely infinite.
 
Deagonx said:
Gotcha, so he can channel anti-matter into energy which is how the original wave was created.


You can gain your power from an infinite source without your power necessarily being infinite. Not that the AM Universe is likely infinite.
Click to expand...
It does when he was considered an equal to Monitor, for which the Infinite Universes were directly referring to the strength of the Monitor himself, he was literally channeling all the power through him, he even says as much. And we definitely see that that power is directly tied to how strong he was as Harbinger, who has the tiniest fraction of the Monitors full power which was already weakened, could collide multiple different universes and timelines together to save them from the AM wave.

Even with his dying breath, he was able to use the last amount of energy he had to save 2 dimensions and transport them into a realm he himself created outside of the realm of the Multiverse.

The entirety of the story seems to be pretty clear that the Multiverse and the Monitor are directly linked in power. To the point where AM himself links the universes to the Monitors power himself. And the Monitor was already considered an equal to the Anti Monitor early in the story.

The AM Universe was also gradually bigger and bigger towards the end of the story anyway and had taken the place of the Positive Matter Multiverse, so it probably was Infinite in size right before the Dawn of Time event.
 
Jared1111 said:
It does when he was considered an equal to Monitor, for which the Infinite Universes were directly referring to the strength of the Monitor himself, he was literally channeling all the power through him, he even says as much.
Click to expand...
I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion. He does state that he's linked with all positive matter, which flows through him and gives him his power, but I am not sure his power is equal to x*number of universes, therefore infinity.
 
Again, it's not just that he's linked with Positive Matter, its that he's linked with all Positive Matter and that all Positive Matter gives him power throughout all of the existence like it is said multiple times. Positive Matter is the Multiverse because the Multiverse is composed of all Positive Matter that was diluted when the Universe became the Multiverse and the AM Wave is designed specifically to destroy all Positive Matter, which is all of existence, throughout all time. That would even include the barriers between dimensions as its mentioned it also crosses them, and also destroys timelines.

Not only that, the story makes clear that the Universes themselves are the ones that give him his power, every Positive Matter Universe lost makes him lose his power, and that power itself is directly given to the AM, which tips the scales. Anti Monitor even states when he destroys the Universe he gets "their power" and that the Monitors Energies (again in relation to the Universes themselves) flow into him.

The fact that even in a weakened state with the Infinite Multiverse pretty much wiped and the Monitor showed to be literally dying because of it, that he was still able to produce 2-C energy, I think also adds a lot of credibility to the fact that the Monitor isn't using a fraction of their power or is using very little, he couldn't transport entire Universes on his death bed without it. Either way, I think the story makes it clear that the Monitor is getting his power from all of creation, and yeah infinite power source doesn't mean infinite power, but in this incident, it seems clear that the case, and he used that Infinite source of power in stalemates against the Anti Monitor for eons.
 
Also looking into the Anti Monitors "prison", it only existed because both of them hit each other with enough power to knock both of them out, and the Anti Matter only gave the energy to wake the Anti Monitor back up after he used up all his energy fighting the Monitor.

He really only needed that Anti Matter to tip the scales against the Monitor himself, as now the Monitor couldn't go toe to toe with the AM because he had that little bit of advantage.

And it again says that he "fed off the Anti Matter Universe itself" and that "with every universe destroyed he gains more power" and it keeps referring to the AM Universe and it itself increasing his own power.

The story seems to be pretty adamant that the "Universes=Monitors Power".
 
Yeah Jared definitely makes sense to me, I suppose we wait till Firestorm responds. I would also be fine with the downgrade for Partial Star absorption AM, but his other versions should stay 2-A. To back this up AM was also stated to be the strongest being ever up to that point which would scale him above other multiverse busters such as Maaldor, keep in mind that infinite earths were established since the sixties iirc and infinite timelines since Warlord or earlier.
 
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