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How is it consistent if he took hits from Monitor for literal centuries. Supergirl beating him is PIS
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Anti-Monitor Revision
- Thread starter Elizio33
- Start date
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That's also fair
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So why is the Monitor 2-A?
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Via the anti matter wave?
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Ok, i've been able to pile up information from reading the entire story, and i feel like i can better explain my reasoning for why the Anti Monitor would still be 2-A even before he absorbed the Anti Matter Universe.
The AM Wave was of the Anti-Monitors creation:
First, i want to get into the context of what the Anti Matter-wave was and is, the Anti Matter-wave that destroyed all of Pariah's world was originally thought to be of his own doing, but it was directly stated that the Anti Monitor himself controlled and redirected the energy to destroy the Universe, before sending out the wave itself to destroy all of creation. The Anti Matter Wave (even though its vague) was heavily implied to be shaped by the Anti-Monitor himself and used to attack the dimensions, he didn't do so before because he was imprisoned and only recently learned of the Positive Matter Universes adding to his strength.
The reason he needed this is because the Monitor's powers thwarted him at every turn, they were of equal power even from conception and The Monitor directly states his power comes from the Multiverse itself. Its energy directly affects him and every Universe destroyed lowers his power infinitely. I'll explain why below
Reasons why the AM wave is definitely 2-A:
It is stated to attack all Earths, At all Times, Everywhere
Monitor was trying to get heroes from various timelines, but as the wave hit them, it erased them from existence entirely
Multiple instances of it not just attacking the universes, from the planes of reality as well.
Once again stated to shatter the dimensional barriers, including space-time.
Even Brainiac could not find where the point of origin was from, and he can both see and study things through time and space.
The Anti Matter Universe fills the voids where the Universes existed, expanding out infinitely.
Most importantly, all Universes absorbed directly into the Anti Monitor, for every time his strength is taken, it is absorbed back into him.
Even the Spectre and Phantom Strangers Magicks could not survive the Anti Matter Universe, as its properties were too destructive. This also from a guy who is already 2-A Pre-Crisis.
BONUS FACT: Apokolips itself, even its other-dimensional counterpart, is directly stated to be potentially affected by the Anti Monitor. But i would consider this a potential outlier.
Reasons why Monitors powers directly correspond to the Multiverse:
The Monitor himself is directly stated to have his power from the Multiverse, and each universe gives him power over said Universe, from all time and space, including the dimensional planes that occupy them all.
This is further explained by the AM referring to the Universes as the Monitors Power and Strength
Monitor reinforces that the deaths of the universes themselves correlate to the diminishing of his power
Reinforced again in a flashback.
Even in his beyond weakened state, his energies were used to fuse the dimensions of Earth 1 and Earth 2 to another limbo reality, beyond the reach of the Anti Monitor.
Harbinger, who was also given a fraction of the power of the Monitor himself, used her own energies to combine the other 3 universes with the remaining 2 to save them again from the anti matter wave.
This collision caused problems across all the timelines, causing the various pasts and futures of all 5 universes to collide. Further proving this isn't just a HIgh 3-A level event.
His own satellite is said to exist within all times, places, and dimensions.
Defense for remaining 5 Universes:
The reason why the AM wave didn’t destroy the remaining 5 Universes is simple, he had already planned for the AM destruction and had created tuning forks that would be used to keep the Universes safe until the last minute, and then teleported them to a limbo realm beyond time and space where they would be kept safe from the AM wave. The AM wave as mentioned before would have destroyed the 5 universes all the same, across all time periods, if not for the intervention of the Monitor and Harbinger, who wields a limited form of his powers.
Why Scaling doesn't work.
Arguments against scaling to Thunderers and Supergirl are simple, both events occurred well after the AM had already scaled to the Multiverse absorption, the very power he had been directly feeding upon. So already they contradict the story itself, and don’t make sense, especially the Thunderers as they were creations of the Anti Monitor himself, were easily dispatched once he got pissed, and were all attacking him at once with power that should have already been similar enough to the Pre-Crisis heroes.
Also, for Supergirl, this once again either comes down to how screwed Pre-Crisis Superman’s tiering is (his tiering itself doesn’t make sense, nor does his 2-C rating. I’ll address this later in another thread) so I think for now it shouldn’t be considered anyway.
(The crossover itself has weird scaling for the heroes anyway, like saying the combined might of dozens of confirmed Universe level beings as "decimating a solar system". So i think we should only scale between AM and the Monitor)
Why 2-C doesn't make sense in any case:
Finally, even if all of this is true, why is this considered a 2-C rating anyway, when the Anti Monitors own creations were a threats to the likes of Dr. Fate and Dr. Fate himself (Who is 2-B at worst) and other likewise sorcerers already considered the AM a huge threat, and their own powers couldn’t even function within the Anti Matter Universe. The 2-C rating at best doesn’t make any sense either way.
Conclusion:
Overall, I disagree heavily with this downgrade from what I’ve read, and I would need more discrepancies for why the AM cannot be 2-A pre absorption, otherwise, the presented evidence isn’t enough.
The AM Wave was of the Anti-Monitors creation:
First, i want to get into the context of what the Anti Matter-wave was and is, the Anti Matter-wave that destroyed all of Pariah's world was originally thought to be of his own doing, but it was directly stated that the Anti Monitor himself controlled and redirected the energy to destroy the Universe, before sending out the wave itself to destroy all of creation. The Anti Matter Wave (even though its vague) was heavily implied to be shaped by the Anti-Monitor himself and used to attack the dimensions, he didn't do so before because he was imprisoned and only recently learned of the Positive Matter Universes adding to his strength.
The reason he needed this is because the Monitor's powers thwarted him at every turn, they were of equal power even from conception and The Monitor directly states his power comes from the Multiverse itself. Its energy directly affects him and every Universe destroyed lowers his power infinitely. I'll explain why below
Reasons why the AM wave is definitely 2-A:
It is stated to attack all Earths, At all Times, Everywhere
Monitor was trying to get heroes from various timelines, but as the wave hit them, it erased them from existence entirely
Multiple instances of it not just attacking the universes, from the planes of reality as well.
Once again stated to shatter the dimensional barriers, including space-time.
Even Brainiac could not find where the point of origin was from, and he can both see and study things through time and space.
The Anti Matter Universe fills the voids where the Universes existed, expanding out infinitely.
Most importantly, all Universes absorbed directly into the Anti Monitor, for every time his strength is taken, it is absorbed back into him.
Even the Spectre and Phantom Strangers Magicks could not survive the Anti Matter Universe, as its properties were too destructive. This also from a guy who is already 2-A Pre-Crisis.
BONUS FACT: Apokolips itself, even its other-dimensional counterpart, is directly stated to be potentially affected by the Anti Monitor. But i would consider this a potential outlier.
Reasons why Monitors powers directly correspond to the Multiverse:
The Monitor himself is directly stated to have his power from the Multiverse, and each universe gives him power over said Universe, from all time and space, including the dimensional planes that occupy them all.
This is further explained by the AM referring to the Universes as the Monitors Power and Strength
Monitor reinforces that the deaths of the universes themselves correlate to the diminishing of his power
Reinforced again in a flashback.
Even in his beyond weakened state, his energies were used to fuse the dimensions of Earth 1 and Earth 2 to another limbo reality, beyond the reach of the Anti Monitor.
Harbinger, who was also given a fraction of the power of the Monitor himself, used her own energies to combine the other 3 universes with the remaining 2 to save them again from the anti matter wave.
This collision caused problems across all the timelines, causing the various pasts and futures of all 5 universes to collide. Further proving this isn't just a HIgh 3-A level event.
His own satellite is said to exist within all times, places, and dimensions.
Defense for remaining 5 Universes:
The reason why the AM wave didn’t destroy the remaining 5 Universes is simple, he had already planned for the AM destruction and had created tuning forks that would be used to keep the Universes safe until the last minute, and then teleported them to a limbo realm beyond time and space where they would be kept safe from the AM wave. The AM wave as mentioned before would have destroyed the 5 universes all the same, across all time periods, if not for the intervention of the Monitor and Harbinger, who wields a limited form of his powers.
Why Scaling doesn't work.
Arguments against scaling to Thunderers and Supergirl are simple, both events occurred well after the AM had already scaled to the Multiverse absorption, the very power he had been directly feeding upon. So already they contradict the story itself, and don’t make sense, especially the Thunderers as they were creations of the Anti Monitor himself, were easily dispatched once he got pissed, and were all attacking him at once with power that should have already been similar enough to the Pre-Crisis heroes.
Also, for Supergirl, this once again either comes down to how screwed Pre-Crisis Superman’s tiering is (his tiering itself doesn’t make sense, nor does his 2-C rating. I’ll address this later in another thread) so I think for now it shouldn’t be considered anyway.
(The crossover itself has weird scaling for the heroes anyway, like saying the combined might of dozens of confirmed Universe level beings as "decimating a solar system". So i think we should only scale between AM and the Monitor)
Why 2-C doesn't make sense in any case:
Finally, even if all of this is true, why is this considered a 2-C rating anyway, when the Anti Monitors own creations were a threats to the likes of Dr. Fate and Dr. Fate himself (Who is 2-B at worst) and other likewise sorcerers already considered the AM a huge threat, and their own powers couldn’t even function within the Anti Matter Universe. The 2-C rating at best doesn’t make any sense either way.
Conclusion:
Overall, I disagree heavily with this downgrade from what I’ve read, and I would need more discrepancies for why the AM cannot be 2-A pre absorption, otherwise, the presented evidence isn’t enough.
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If Firestorm thinks 2-C is the most consistent then I say go with that. He's put in much more effort than everyone else so far so if he believes that's the consistent max I believe him.
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It’s not the most consistent if it’s literally Wally at his absolute best (not counting Wallyhattan). Firestorm hasn’t even responded to all points yet, we shouldn’t be rush the thread just because he’s knowledgeable on DC
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Wrong thread dude
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@Firestorm808 could you tackle Jared’s reply?
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Sorry for the late reply. Had stuff with family today. I should be able to go over it tomorrow.
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Bruh I’m sorry. That’s what you get for debating at several threads at once
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Here's regarding the first section.
Prologue to the COIE
No one is saying that the Anti-Monitor didn't make the Multiversal Anti-Matter Wave. We're questioning if his armor, physicals, and normal attacks scale to it.
Do you have the Issue numbers for your other scans? It would help things along.
Prologue to the COIE
- #7 - Anti-Monitor and Monitor fought with equal power until a simultaneous attack knocked them both unconscious for 9 billion years.
- #7 - Pariah discovers the Multiverse and the Anti-Matter Universe. The origin of one is also the other. He created an Anti-Matter Chamber. Inside, he could penetrate the barrier between universes. Inside, he could safely observe the origin of all existence. He entered the chamber and saw the origin of all life. As he watched the beginning of time, he supposedly set off a chain reaction that destroyed his universe when Positive Matter met Anti-Matter, leaving him alive inside his Anti-Matter Chamber. Supposedly, the explosion of his universe reverberated through the Anti-Matter Universe and freed the Anti-Monitor.
- #7 - When Pariah's universe perished, he also freed the Monitor. The Monitor knew what happened to Pariah's universe and how he could be used to save the multiverse. Pariah could sense when "evil was to tread." The Monitor could follow him to where his brother would strike next. As the Anti-Monitor destroyed universe after universe, expanding his power, the Monitor grew weaker and weaker with each loss.
- #10 - When Pariah opened the Anti-Matter portal to the dawn of time. The Anti-Monitor took advantage of his experiment. He converted the Anti-Matter of Pariah’s experiment into energy. He focused the energy into Pariah's universe, destroying it to gather even more energy. Only then, he was powerful enough to break free from his prison to spread his rule.
No one is saying that the Anti-Monitor didn't make the Multiversal Anti-Matter Wave. We're questioning if his armor, physicals, and normal attacks scale to it.
Do you have the Issue numbers for your other scans? It would help things along.
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I think another reason why the Anti Monitor/Anti Matter wave was able to rather easily destroy the multiverse is because its been stated that the multiverse was not supposed to exists, that the fabric of being of the universes are too weak, the multiverse's defense is somehow weaker than the defense of the original universe so the "unified" anti matter universe/wave pretty much steamrolled through the multiverse (Anti-Matter and Matter annihilate each other upon contact but the anti matter wave seems to just keep on going. Probably also the reason why the Monitor and AM being even despite the Monitor's power source being an an infinite multiverse compare to the single anti matter universe)
"The universe was split apart at the dawn of time...each world weaker than the whole its meant to be"
"A multiverse that should have been one..became many"
"The universe was split apart at the dawn of time...each world weaker than the whole its meant to be"
"A multiverse that should have been one..became many"
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Doesn't this imply that the Anti Matter Universe itself is as strong as the Pre-Crisis Multiverse itself? If anything that makes the Anti Monitor even more impressive seeing how he fed directly off the Anti Matter Universe.
At the end of the day, 4th-dimensional spacing still exists between dimensions in the Pre-Crisis Multiverse, and the story itself makes mention of the wave crashing through dimensional barriers and destroying space-time, so if anything that just makes AM wave even more impressive. I think at the end of the day it just means that the original Universe itself was as strong as an Infinite Multiverse and that the Anti Matter Universe was already potentially 2-A in power, which follows up because the wave was just adding the entire multiverse to the AM verse in the first place.
I mean unless we're arguing the Pre-Crisis Multiverse is actually weaker than a normal universe, or that its weaker than standard multiverses so we're gonna have to completely rework the AP scaling for all Pre-Crisis characters.
(Also sorry if this was exactly what you were saying, im Korean so sometimes i mess up my english)
I know noone was saying it wasn't 2-A or that the AM didn't make the AM wave, i was just covering my bases. You know double checking to make sure there was more than one instance of the wave destroying all timelines instantly.
I thought the argument of the normal attacks scaling was enough because of how we scales to the Monitor, who was directly stated to use the Universes as his power in the same way the Anti Monitor used the Anti Matter Universes as his power. Even then i disagree with scaling to Supergirl and the Thunderers as explained
Sorry for not using exact timeframes, i just thought the images spoke for themselves, i'll try to update them once i get home.
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Yeah I think Sandman reinforces Jared’s point. The alternative is revising all multiversal feats for Pre-Crisis DC.
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While the narration may say it struck all worlds and times at once, the story portrays it as happening over time with universes/timelines being destroyed one by one. It would be more appropriate to say that the wave targeted all worlds and times.
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Regarding the Final Battle in the AM verse in COIE #12, do you guys agree with Partial Star absorbed Anti-Monitor at this time being 2-C since he got heavily damaged by the group of 2-Cs and Doctor Light's Partial Star Absorbed Attack?
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- Thread starter
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I also think that it seems fine.
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If it was after Dr. Light had already drained him then sure. Before would be a vague tier since the Pre-Crisis characters couldn't even scratch him.
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Yes, Full Star Absorbed AM is some degree higher.
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I agree the Partial Star Anti Monitor at being not 2-A, but i still don't agree with the original AM Pre-COIE being below 2-A, again if the Anti Matter Universe was already comparable to the Pre-Crisis DC Multiverse in its entirety and he matched the Monitor whose power came from that Multiverse i still believe he would be 2-A, with the Thunderers and the Supergirl feat being outliers.
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So basically anti monitor is 2-A until light drained him right?
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Its vague, since he was only absorbing one star at the time
(Though i argue the fact that he was only absorbing one star for power at the time and he was literally stronger than like all the 2-C heavyweights until his connection to the star was severed kind helps my point of how busted even a drained Anti Matter Universe is)
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Since we agree that Partial Star Absorbed Anti-Monitor is 2-C, higher with full star and that the Anti-Matter Universe absorbed Anti-Monitor is 2-A, it's reasonable that the nothing absorbed Anti-Monitor is 2-C, yes?
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I'll try to find the thread regarding the last Earth 1 Supermans 2-C rating.
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Doesn't say how high into 2-C he is since we no longer use Jaxon the mighty feat
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Not really, his backstory with Monitor should take precedence since it's lore as opposed to possibly wacky powerscaling. The biggest damage done to him was by his own power source being turned against him. So if partial-star absorbed AM is supposed to be stronger than his base then he's 2-A, if that's not the case then I'll remain neutral on Partial-star absorbed AM's power.
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